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Source: (consider it) Thread: sex before marriage
that Wikkid Person
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Most people I know (married or otherwise) had sex before they got married. Because of how I was raised, I expected to hear that "not waiting" had some kind of disruptive effect on the relationship, that it was moving things along too soon, or that it was in some way "not right" or that they regretted it and so on.

What I have heard from most people is that, if they had sex and then broke up, they often wished they hadn't. Those who had sex, but ended up staying together and perhaps getting married didn't think it made much difference at all. People who lived together for extended periods before marrying said that the eventual marriage meant something to them personally (in a good way, usually) but didn't seem to feel that good thing was something they'd waited too long to experience.

Those who waited until marriage before having sex, of course, said they were "glad they did." as this is what they intended and hooray for them).

My approach is that, if I have sex (mate) with someone, I will naturally want to treat them as my mate from that point on. I don't see why some official wedding couldn't happen around the same time.

I am, however, sick of being repeatedly told that, even if you love each other deeply, are strongly attracted to each other, like spending lots and lots of time with the person, can't keep your hands off them, respect them, build a deep and strong friendship, learn to work together and get through adversity and hardship, that even so, once you have sex, you might never want to have sex with them again.

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We have only one truth and one reality. Let's make the most of them.

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mousethief

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I'd never heard that take, TWP. Weird. [Disappointed]

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multipara
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Wikkid, I suspect that no-one but no-one is ever going to tell you the truth about their first intercourse irrespective of whether this took place before or after a wedding ceremony: most would be too embarrassed. Any reports of marital ecstasy on the first are occasions are a passel of lies. The first biological connection is best described as nasty, brutish and (thankfully) short, especially if the couple are so inexperienced and clueless (read brainwashed by the pro-chastity brigade)as to have not heard of foreplay. All that crap about how one might never want to do it again after the first attempt at pre-marital sex is just a scare tactic-what these goons leave out is the old adage that "practice makes perfect". It has also occurred to me that the expression of such a view speaks volumes for the perpetrator's own sexual clumsiness and lack of insight about same.

just my 2 bob's worth,

m

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quod scripsi, scripsi

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
especially if the couple are so inexperienced and clueless (read brainwashed by the pro-chastity brigade) as to have not heard of foreplay.

Or just young and foolish. At 17 we were totally clueless except for the rudimentary "tab a goes in slot b" type facts. It was books by the pro-chastity brigade that taught me what the clitoris was, for example, and in general enabled it to become more than a one-sided off-getting of rocks.

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multipara
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Half your luck. There wasn't anything more helpful than "Lady Chatterley's Lover" around when I was 17, and God knows that was as mucj use as tits on a bull; "Gray's Anatomy" was at least informative.
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AdamPater
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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
... no-one but no-one is ever going to tell you the truth about their first intercourse irrespective of whether this took place before or after a wedding ceremony...

Oh no! It was magnificent! Violins wailed, rockets flared, drums beat and angels wept... the earth shook, rivers of tears rained down, hands out-stretched to meet across the gulfs of space, skin, the sensuous velvet caress, and all the host of heaven descended...

... that was just wrestling with the wedding dress...

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Put not your trust in princes.

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Caz...
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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
The first biological connection is best described as nasty, brutish and (thankfully) short

No, no and no again (in my humble experience). The first time was lovely. It has, however, also improved greatly with time... but the beauty of that was that I never realised (and I'm sure I still don't) that there was "improvement" to be had until I found it!

FWIW... I'm not married. I've only had two partners; both within medium-long term relationships, and I don't and can't regret either. I don't feel any lasting "one flesh" bond to either of them as I'd been taught I would, but I do feel respect and admiration to both of them and a sense of closeness at what we shared and what we journeyed together and taught each other through it all.

Furthermore I feel like I know myself an incredible amount better since losing my virginity. I didn't expect to feel that way but I found exploring ALL the parts of what makes up "me" rather than shutting the door on that whole aspect of myself has made me understand my depths and boundaries and capabilities much more than I did before.

I don't mean to imply that those who wait know themselves less as any kind of rule. It's simply how it worked for me.

I wish in a lot of ways it hadn't worked like that. I also wish in a lot of ways I could find some regret in my heart. Not because I think
I should but because it would make for a much easier position from my standpoint as part of the charismatic evangelical church. But I can't and at present, I don't feel any urging from God to feel that way either.

I'm just navigating my way through, same as us all. I could be wrong and usually am! But I thought I'd share my experience.

[ 17. September 2003, 09:53: Message edited by: caz667 ]

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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard

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Janine

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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
... The first biological connection is best described as nasty, brutish and (thankfully) short, especially if the couple are so inexperienced and clueless (read brainwashed by the pro-chastity brigade)as to have not heard of foreplay...
just my 2 bob's worth,

m

Trying to remember - it was long ago and far away -

No, not nasty, far from it - unless you count the blood.

Left me with a particular fondness for moonlight and sugar cane fields. [Two face]

Not exactly ecstacy either, though. That took time. It also helped to actually end up with someone who loved me (well, duh!)...

Ideal still in my head is one-man-one-woman-one-lifetime. The variations I've known on that theme in the 26 years since have been interesting... but the ideal stil holds, to me. Still fits with Scripture. So far still works IRL, despite my tangents and occasional desire to murder my Significant Other.

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Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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sharkshooter

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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:


just my 2 bob's worth,

m

2 Bobs?!?! Naughty, naughty. [Big Grin]

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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anglicanrascal
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Oooohhh gosh. [Ultra confused]

This thread is getting a little ... sweaty, isn't it. Are y'all just trying to frighten us engaged types ... or encourage us? I just can't work it out.

Yours perspiringly,
anglicanrascal

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Chorister

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quote:
Originally posted by Little boy:
I just can't work it out.


Don't worry, it'll all become clear on the night [Wink] [Big Grin]

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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AdamPater
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quote:
Don't worry, it'll all become clear on the night [Wink] [Big Grin]
I didn't... [Frown]

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Put not your trust in princes.

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jlg

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quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Half your luck. There wasn't anything more helpful than "Lady Chatterley's Lover" around when I was 17, and God knows that was as mucj use as tits on a bull; "Gray's Anatomy" was at least informative.

Oh, come now, multipara, even my prudish mother had a copy of Fannie Hill hidden in her underwear drawer!

But it is quite true that a careful selection taken from the Romance and the Sci-Fi/Fantasy section at a major chain bookstore these days, combined with one of the many nuts and bolts books from the Health and Wellness section, easily provides the average reader of any age with about a thousand times the information available back in the '50s and early '60s.

I have to say that it must take a fair amount of conscious effort to come to one's wedding night as a totally ignorant, fumbling virgin of the type that you and I heard about from our older female relatives, multipara.

On the other hand, the ignorant, fumbling 13-yr-olds trying to prove something are still with us. Sigh.

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multipara
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(Sigh....) I had to get up for the 3 am feed as usual on my wedding night-after washing up the (not already broken)wine glasses. If nothing else, said wedding was a good excuse for a party.

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quod scripsi, scripsi

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Emma Louise

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quote:
Originally posted by jlg:


I have to say that it must take a fair amount of conscious effort to come to one's wedding night as a totally ignorant, fumbling virgin of the type that you and I heard about from our older female relatives, multipara.

nope - just any 2 average 21 year olds from an evo-charismatic background....
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sharkshooter

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quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
I have to say that it must take a fair amount of conscious effort to come to one's wedding night as a totally ignorant, fumbling virgin

Yes. But what is the harm in that - at least as a goal to aspire to? Of course it is much more difficult the second time. [Wink]

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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anglicanrascal
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by jlg:
I have to say that it must take a fair amount of conscious effort to come to one's wedding night as a totally ignorant, fumbling virgin

Yes. But what is the harm in that - at least as a goal to aspire to? Of course it is much more difficult the second time. [Wink]
[Eek!]

The second night

or

the wedding night of the second marriage?

[Ultra confused]

ar

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mousethief

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The crummy thing is that my pre-wedding sexual experience didn't make me any more competent a partner on the Big Night. Reading one of those "how to make love to a woman" books, on the other hand, helped tons.

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anglicanrascal
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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
The crummy thing is that my pre-wedding sexual experience didn't make me any more competent a partner on the Big Night. Reading one of those "how to make love to a woman" books, on the other hand, helped tons.

Can you recommend a good one - preferably written by a decent evangelical author? It will need to be theologically sound, have no pictures and have lots of bible quotations. Any help appreciated.

Cheers & pax,
anglicanrascal

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Caz...
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Try Hot Sex by Tracey Cox.

It's none of those things but I liked it [Big Grin]

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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard

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mousethief

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The Act of Marriage by Tim and Beverly LaHaye is one. Also Intended for Pleasure by Ed and Gaye Wheat.

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mousethief

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(I also got a secular one (no pictures) but didn't tell my wife about that one.....)

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Caz...
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Mousethief....

I'm assuming she knows by now???

Or does she?????

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anglicanrascal
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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
The Act of Marriage by Tim and Beverly LaHaye is one.

[Eek!]

Of the "Left Behind" fame?

Mousethief, I am truly shocked.

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Gill H

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Anglican Rascal, the best I've found is 'The Touch of Love' by Janet and John Houghton. Don't know if it's still in print, though.

The La Haye/Wheat books scared the life out of me, made the whole thing sound like an exam and are very strong on the 'husband's the boss' thing. (The UK edition of 'Intended for Pleasure' even has a disclaimer from the publishers about part of it!) A lot of the practical info is useful, but read the rest with caution.

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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.

- Lyda Rose

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anglicanrascal
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The first thing that I saw when I read Gill H's post was her sig ... which would be an interesting title for such a guidebook. [Razz]
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mousethief

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Answering everybody in no particular order:

This was long before LaHaye co-wrote the "Left Behind" series.

Yeah I might not agree with the theology/anthropology behind the books now, but the practical advice was fine.

That was the first wife. She was my practice dummy. Now that I have my technique down, I don't need the books anymore with my current wife. [Big Grin]

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Callan
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Gives a whole new meaning to the term: "Rapture".

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Caz...
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[Killing me] Mousethief!

But, um, [Embarrassed] one question... "technique" - singular???

It might be time to dig those books out the attic, baby!

[Wink]

[ 24. September 2003, 11:15: Message edited by: caz667 ]

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Emma Louise

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oh dear - i really didnt find hte la haye one helpful. isnt that where its very man-is-dominant, and suggests seeing a doctor before your wedding night.....

why the preoccupation with an *evangelical* book? do you look for evangelical books on DIY, cooking, etc etc.....

I think the so-called 'christian' slant on things has caused more harm than good imho.....

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anglicanrascal
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quote:
Originally posted by TheGreenT:
why the preoccupation with an *evangelical* book? do you look for evangelical books on DIY, cooking, etc etc.....

Sorry - it was a weak attempt at humour. [Frown]
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Caz...
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phew, thank goodness for that!!!

I THOUGHT you were being funny and then when it went on I thought I'd read you wrong; have spent the last day wondering whether to apologise to you for MY book recommendation!!!

[Big Grin]

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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard

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Emma Louise

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relieved anglican boy - that it wasnt you for real!!!!! unfortunately a lot of people do ask that..... [Frown]
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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by caz667:
But, um, [Embarrassed] one question... "technique" - singular???

In the collective sense, yes. From m-w.com, sense 2a: "a body of technical methods."

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anglicanrascal
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quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
"a body of technical methods."

You have a body of technical methods? How ... unusual!

Pax,
anglicanrascal

[ 25. September 2003, 12:45: Message edited by: anglican rascal ]

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mousethief

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saves me on doctor visits

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Big Steve

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I think it's time to get this thread going again. It's been a few days.

If sex before marriage is to be avoided, how are a fiery couple expected to last any length of time in a relationship unless they get married ASAP?
Is it possible to believe in "sex within marriage" for all couples or are some destined to fail?

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ken
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Why are they waiting?

What are they waiting for?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Big Steve

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Assuming that a couple would prefer to wait until marriage before sleeping together and assuming that the couple really, really want to sleep together right now, what should they do?

Do they
- Live in different time zones
- Wear armour
- only meet with responsible adults nearby
- Do everything apart from "it"

or do they just give up on their ideal of no sex before marriage?

[ 13. October 2003, 16:31: Message edited by: Big Steve ]

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that Wikkid Person
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Or, if you succumb to sex, realize that you are now joined as mate and mate, having mated with one another. If you're comfortable with that, then do it, otherwise, wait until you are.

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We have only one truth and one reality. Let's make the most of them.

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Emma Louise

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hmm - I'm begining to think the 'waiting' thing might cause more hastle than its worth....
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Big Steve

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Yeah. It's possibly is too much to ask. But what happens if there's a pregnancy? I guess at my core that's one of my biggest fears - moreso than any religious conviction. If a person is not sure enough about their partner to want to be married, why risk bringing a child into the world? Ok, so there is contraception and the risks can be minimised, but pregnancies still occur in relationships where neither partner expected nor asked for it.

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Belle
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Unfortunately Big Steve, even when couples are married there's no guarantee that a pregnancy will be received with joy in all quarters. My partner and I have decided not to have children. Believe me, I am just as worried about getting pregnant as if we weren't in a permanent relationship. Which brings me to another angle on this. Perhaps the real issue is that having sex has been divorced (to a large extent) from procreating - which has led to a reassessment of the moral issues around it. I think most Christians would probably agree that bringing children into a relationship should wait for marriage(aka a responsible, mature, nurturing, loving relationship that will provide the best possible environment for the offspring) - sadly these two things aren't always one and the same, though hopefully in a Christian household they would be. In the same way, you can have that kind of relationship without the marriage. In the past sex was indivisible from procreation. Now, we have separated the two things by the use of contraception - which is pretty effective in most cases. After all - pregnancy isn't 100% welcome at all times in a marriage - let alone a non-permanent relationship - I think dilemmas can exist for married couples just as they do for non-married. We can only do our best to eradicate trouble from life - it's impossible to eliminate it completely. Sex, while it can be a destructive element in a relationship, can also be extremely positive - even in a non-permanent relationship, where there is love, trust and responsibility. In my opinion, it still should form a part of a responsible, loving, mature, respectful relationship - and shouldn't be taken lightly. However, if children were an inevitable consequence of sex, I think it would change things back again in terms of whether sex should wait for marriage - ie that permanent relationship which offers more security for the offspring. It wouldn't be enough for a couple to be devoted to one another and consider only their own current relationship and how they were caring for one another - they would have to think about whether they were prepared to be devoted to another human being who needed nurturing and support for the duration of their childhood, and ideally into adult life too.

Does that make any sense?

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where am I going... and why am I in this handbasket?

Posts: 318 | From: Kent, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
magnum mysterium
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# 3418

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That makes sense, and I agree totally, Belle. [Overused]
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Big Steve

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# 3274

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Belle, thanks for the reply.
I'm not sure if I agree - but this is more relating to the nature of morality rather than the application discussed in this thread. I still haven't decided if morality is modern or post-modern. Can each individual have a different morality or is morality something fixed that we must strive to interpret as best we can?

Sorry, off tangent. What you've said makes sense, but I don't know if I can accept it. On the other hand, I don't know if I can live the other way.

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http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:

Do they
- Live in different time zones
- Wear armour
- only meet with responsible adults nearby
- Do everything apart from "it"


or - exercise self-control. [Big Grin]

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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that Wikkid Person
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# 4446

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One of the biggest unhelpful myths out there is the idea that people (and men especially) cannot say "no" to a willing sexual partner. Take it from me, you sure can.

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We have only one truth and one reality. Let's make the most of them.

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Big Steve

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# 3274

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:

Do they
- Live in different time zones
- Wear armour
- only meet with responsible adults nearby
- Do everything apart from "it"


or - exercise self-control. [Big Grin]
Yeah, Sharkshooter, very wise. Thanks for being sooo helpful. You suggest that exercising self-control more often would help? Maybe I should hire a prostitute and practise self-control with her, so when I start real relationships I have a certain level of match fitness. We could sit in the bedroom for hours watching Telly and reading books. Wow, what a great plan!

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http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic

Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Belle
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# 4792

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Dear Steve

Life's not straightforward. Rules can sometimes give the illusion that if you follow them, everything will be all right - and we all know that's not always the case. I think it's more important to ask why the rules are there, and internalise that message. Sometimes it makes it easier to live with a rule if you really believe in the reasons you're abiding by it. Of course, sometimes we also come to feel that we don't need to keep to the letter of the law, if we are keeping the spirit of it. But that's a matter for the individual's conscience - and between them and God!

Psalm 19 says that the law of the lord is perfect, reviving the soul. Seemingly at odds with Paul's opinion, that the law brings death because we cannot keep it, I think that it is a beautiful concept. Rather than being a limitation, a list of things we are prevented from doing, the law becomes a way of feeling God's presence intimately in every part of our lives and drawing closer to him by keeping his laws. It's a concept that was new to me - used as I was to thinking of the law as being superseded by grace.

I sometimes wonder if Christians focus a bit too much on how incapable humans are of reaching God's standards alone. Perhaps it leads to a 'why bother' feeling - or to regarding rules as negative, simply because they are always seem destined to point out our inadequacy. Perhaps we (and I mean myself here) give up too soon, and don't require high enough standards of ourselves because we think we're imperfect anyway - so why try to keep one rule when it won't make any difference any way.

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where am I going... and why am I in this handbasket?

Posts: 318 | From: Kent, UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Big Steve

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# 3274

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So what are you saying? I'm confused about where you're coming from now! Maybe we're too rigid but then again maybe we should make an effort to stick with the rules?

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http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic

Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged



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