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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: sex before marriage
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:
You suggest that exercising self-control more often would help? Maybe I should hire a prostitute and practise self-control with her, so when I start real relationships I have a certain level of match fitness. We could sit in the bedroom for hours watching Telly and reading books. Wow, what a great plan!
Are you looking for advice or permission? Advice I can give - but you have to be willing to take it.
How about:
Leave the clothes on.
Don't go into the bedroom.
Take cold showers (alone).
Keep your toothbrush at home.
Do you think you are the only one who ever wanted to have sex with someone to whom you are not married? Is sex the only thing you want that you can't/shouldn't have whenever you want it? Self-control is a discipline - a lifestyle, if you wish, and has to do with much more than sex. If you practice it in all areas of your life, it is easier than if you select some areas in which you wish to be self-controlled.
If, however, you are looking for permission (be it with a loved one or a prostitute) why do you think the permission of anyone on board is of any value? Seek permission from He who has authority over you.
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Belle
Shipmate
# 4792
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Posted
I suppose I'm saying that in my opinion it's up to the individual and I think there are arguments on both sides. And that of late I am developing more of an appreciation for how fidelity to God's laws even when you can't see the point of them can have a purpose of its own.
To state my position - I'm not married, but in a long term relationship with my partner. It's monogamous and committed. I don't consider myself married - but I consider myself bound by every moral obligation as if I was.
I haven't been part of a church for a long time, and consider myself as a Christian but a doubting one at the moment. If I had had a Christian boyfriend when I was still part of a church, I would probably have done as my Christian friends did, and struggled with reconciling my sexuality and my religion. Most of them married reasonably young. However I never had a Christian boyfriend, and after developing doubts about Christian theology, moved out of the church.
Before my current relationship, I did have sex outside of marriage - but only in long term monogamous relationships (there were v few of these). If I wasn't in a relationship I was celibate.
I still try to apply Christian principles to relationships, but I am not a literalist or an inerrantist - so while I consider the'rules' a vital starting point, I don't see them as the final word either. Hope that makes it clearer - I'm feeling v woolly headed today.
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where am I going... and why am I in this handbasket?
Posts: 318 | From: Kent, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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Big Steve
Ship's Navigator
# 3274
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Posted
Sharkshooter - This is a board for asking questions and having discussion - short one line answers like "exercise self-control" are not very helpful. I'm not even necessarily asking for my own benefit - I'm not even going out with anyone at present. However, I do want to be at a point where I know my own mind - something which this board will, I hope, help me to achieve. I also believe it's important for me to be able to understand other Christians who have different interpretations of life than me. I know Christian couples who've waited till marriage, I know others who haven't. They all seem reasonably happy as far as I can tell.
So yeah, I'm not asking advice on how to avoid sex. I can figure out my own list of dos and don'ts if I need to.
[ 14. October 2003, 14:47: Message edited by: Big Steve ]
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http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic
Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002
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Big Steve
Ship's Navigator
# 3274
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Posted
Thanks Belle, it's good to know where you're coming from! Being wooly headed is a positive feature for many people! Sometimes I wonder is it better to follow marriage rules anyway - expecting that they will make sense at some time in life - perhaps like they are starting to make sense to you.
I dunno. It's hard to see the full picture working at the coal-face of life I guess!
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http://www.youtube.com/stephenhillmusic
Posts: 1269 | From: Dublin. | Registered: Sep 2002
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Belle
Shipmate
# 4792
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Posted
Big Steve, I think you are in absolutely the best place to clarify your mind! Things always get murky when I get involved with someone I really care about.
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where am I going... and why am I in this handbasket?
Posts: 318 | From: Kent, UK | Registered: Aug 2003
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:
You suggest that exercising self-control more often would help? Maybe I should hire a prostitute and practise self-control with her, so when I start real relationships I have a certain level of match fitness. We could sit in the bedroom for hours watching Telly and reading books. Wow, what a great plan!
This is an excellent idea. Amusingly enough, once you're used to regular marital sex, these companionable activities are about on a par with sex. Well, almost. I like to buy large quantities of chocolate and scatter it around so that I can feel virtuous in abstaining.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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that Wikkid Person
Shipmate
# 4446
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Posted
Taking cold showers doesn't do anything but punish yourself and increase semen production due to lowering the temperature of the testicles, which were probably too hot, especially if the possessor wears anything but the loosest underwear and trousers.
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We have only one truth and one reality. Let's make the most of them.
Posts: 1007 | From: Almonte, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Apr 2003
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Kyralessa
Shipmate
# 4568
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Big Steve:
Assuming that a couple would prefer to wait until marriage before sleeping together and assuming that the couple really, really want to sleep together right now, what should they do?
One thing that helped when I was dating my wife in Romania was that she lived in a fairly small house; though we did hang out in the bedroom by ourselves (with the door closed, even), her mom was always a couple rooms away. Regardless of what she'd have thought about walking in on us, I'd have died of mortification. Not having a place to do it (and not seeking one out!) helps a lot, and we managed to wait.
In Judaism there exist the laws of yichud ("privacy"), which prohibit an unmarried man and woman being in a closed room; the very closing of the door is considered a sexual act, regardless of what might or might not happen next. I'm also reminded of a tale I heard of a pastor who, when he drove people home from some church event, would drive far out of his way to make sure that a woman wouldn't be the last one in the car with him, because he didn't want to give even the hint of immorality.
Such caution may seem rather square, but maybe it just separates those who are serious about being chaste from those who aren't. Incidentally, from what I found on yichud, even sitting in the bedroom listening to music with my wife-to-be probably wasn't a violation of the Jewish yichud rules, because her mom could have walked in at any moment; a violation would require a reasonable expectation of privacy.
So if the couple really wants to wait till marriage, my advice would be that they be overcautious rather than trying to go up to the forbidden line without crossing it. And once they're married, this overcaution is not a bad rule to keep regarding those outside the marriage, so as to guard against adultery.
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In Orthodoxy, a child is considered an icon of the parents' love for each other.
I'm just glad all my other icons don't cry, crap, and spit up this much.
Posts: 1597 | From: St. Louis, MO | Registered: May 2003
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Mr. Spouse
Ship's Pedant
# 3353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kÿralessa:
In Judaism there exist the laws of yichud ("privacy"), which prohibit an unmarried man and woman being in a closed room; the very closing of the door is considered a sexual act, regardless of what might or might not happen next.
Reminds me of a seminar I attended on "boy-girl relationships" in my youth, run I think by the Navigators. Their advice was to put a pillow in the door if alone with a person of the opposite sex... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Try to have a thought of your own, thinking is so important. - Blackadder
Posts: 1814 | From: Here, there & everywhere | Registered: Sep 2002
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Frisbeetarian
Apprentice
# 6808
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Posted
A prime anti-abortion argument is, what is the difference between killing a fetus a day (week, month) before birth and the killing of it a day (week, month) after birth?
The same logic could be applied against no-sex-before-marriage: what is the difference between screwing a day (a week, a month) before marriage and screwing a day (a week, a month) after marriage?
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Quid pro quo, Clarice.
Posts: 39 | From: On the roof | Registered: May 2004
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Frisbeetarian:
...what is the difference between screwing a day (a week, a month) before marriage and screwing a day (a week, a month) after marriage?
Marriage, a sacrament which makes the activity licit. Try this Catholic Pages article.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Frisbeetarian
Apprentice
# 6808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
quote:
Originally posted by Frisbeetarian:
...what is the difference between screwing a day (a week, a month) before marriage and screwing a day (a week, a month) after marriage?
Marriage, a sacrament which makes the activity licit. Try this Catholic Pages article.
Logic is objective; sacrament is subjective.
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Quid pro quo, Clarice.
Posts: 39 | From: On the roof | Registered: May 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
That's just as well; I'm a subject, not an object.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Laura
General nuisance
# 10
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Posted
But, MT, what Frisbeetarian wrote was so Hemingwayishly Profound. I'm astonished that you didn't immediately say, "Wow! You're so right! It's logically the same act, so how can marriage make a difference???"
I wouldn't say that sex before marriage was a mortal sin (I do think adultery is a mortal sin), but based on what I hear from other married couples, sex within marriage is fundamentally different, and I believe that it is the sanctifying grace of marriage that makes it so.
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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm
Posts: 16883 | From: East Coast, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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Frisbeetarian
Apprentice
# 6808
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Posted
What makes sanctifying grace? (out of curiousity) Blessings of a priest? Of friends? Of a justice of the peace? Of yourselves?
Again, I imagine this would be subjective.
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Quid pro quo, Clarice.
Posts: 39 | From: On the roof | Registered: May 2004
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ThisCoolMom
Apprentice
# 5966
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Posted
Sorry to bring this up again, but after a friends divorce did this subject really bring some light.
Sex before marriage is not a good idea. I am not going to preach on why it's a sin, but more on why it's not a good idea.
For instance a relationship that is built on sex before marriage is a foundation that is built on passion and emotions. Which really are fickle and can change so quickly. Also makes for quite a rollercoaster of a relationship. High - High moments of passion and deep lows.
A relationship that is built of friendship can withstand those lows because the couple is sensitive to each other's needs and know when and what to do to bring comfort and reassurance.
For me the orginal idea for dating is to nurture the friendship side of the relationship. To find that partner that will recognize your needs. Will that person know when your sad and comfort you and help reasure you or cheer you up. Will your partner be your encourager and defender. Better yet will for the girls will that person hold your hair back when your sick.
A question I like to ask myself when I am dating is How will this person react when he comes home from a stressfull day and find that one of my kids did a Vangough on the walls and the infant decided to soil himself on my while changing him.
If you want a marriage that will stand the test of time start with a good friendship. Then the fun can begin when you get married. Remember sex inside of marriage can be fun and rewarding it just takes alot of practice ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning."
Posts: 38 | From: Canada | Registered: May 2004
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThisCoolMom:
Sex before marriage is not a good idea. I am not going to preach on why it's a sin, but more on why it's not a good idea.
For instance a relationship that is built on sex before marriage is a foundation that is built on passion and emotions.
I guess that's possible if the relationship is "built" on sex before marriage. But it is possible to have a relationship before marriage which involves sex but is not "built" on sex. Why is a relationship which includes sex assumed to be "built" on sex? It could be built on love, friendship, genuinely seeking the best for the other person, and sex is just another expression of that. Any relationship which is "built" on sex and where sex is the foundation probably isn't as healthy as it could and should be, but you could probably say that that's the case with plenty of marriages as well.
I don't have any problem at all with dating to be about friendship - I just don't think that that necessarily excludes sex. I know a number of people who waited till their wedding night to have sex and who, before and after, are absolutely adamant that that was the right thing to do, and I believe they are right. For them, if they had had sex before marriage it would have caused so much angst and guilt that it would have been a bad idea and may well have affected their relationship with their partner and with God. However, I also know of people who've had very distressing experiences of sex within marriage because they were so used to thinking of it as "naughty" and "forbidden" and "wrong" before they got married that they couldn't just drop those associations once they had the rings on their fingers. Likewise, I also know people who have had sex before marriage and found that for them it was an affirming experience which has helped to make them more rounded and mature as people and which means they have more to offer that or subsequent relationships. And to complete the circle, I've also met people who've had sex before marriage and bitterly regretted it. I don't want to negate the intense power that sex can have to either increase intimacy or to screw you up, but I do think it's important to say that one size doesn't necessarily fit all.
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
I agree wholeheartedly with Jack the Lass.
The other thing is, you don't know that it's sex before marriage until you get married. Some of us are perfectly happy to have sex without regard to marriage - a relationship that's developed far enough for me to have sex might develop further, as far as marriage, or it might not.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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ThisCoolMom
Apprentice
# 5966
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Lass:
I guess that's possible if the relationship is "built" on sex before marriage. But it is possible to have a relationship before marriage which involves sex but is not "built" on sex. Why is a relationship which includes sex assumed to be "built" on sex? It could be built on love, friendship, genuinely seeking the best for the other person, and sex is just another expression of that. Any relationship which is "built" on sex and where sex is the foundation probably isn't as healthy as it could and should be, but you could probably say that that's the case with plenty of marriages as well.
Without sounding preachy...God had intended the sex act to finalize the marriage deal. God has given us humans the freedom to make sex what we want it to be. It's sad to see such a beautiful and sacred thing to be used so fleatingly. As well when you have sex a peice of you is left with that person because it's such a intimate thing between a couple. I can remember my first kiss (with an Aussie and boy was he a good kisser) The second third etc I hardly remember. I saved myself for my husband (now deceiced) He didnt save himself for me and boy was I dissapointed. I have always dreamed that my first time would be with someone who saved himself. As I watch the Maury Povich show one day I saw a girl who's slept with over 200 guys. (a severe case of comparison but) Just imagine the tree that goes with that person not only has she slept with that person she has slept with everyone that has slept with that partner and partner's partner. Sad to say in today's society where the church scares the kids thinking sex is dirty or only for child conceiving. It is the deepest expression of love between a married couple. Taint that expression with just any old boyfriend only leaves room for Jelousy for the partner. Leaving them wondering if the other person pleased them better.
As your question if you can have a friendship with the side of sex my answer will still be no. If you desire sexual relations with said person then you really should be married. There is no such thing as trying to find the best sexual partner because there will always be the good days and horrible ones. As I have said before sex takes practice. For the couple with wandering eyes or wondering what or how another person would be in the sac it's temptation. An issue that you need to work out with God. Yes all relationships are not perfect but the can be happy.
Finally there can only be one first time you can never take that back.
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"If you can't be a good example then you'll just have to be a horrible warning."
Posts: 38 | From: Canada | Registered: May 2004
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jlg
What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThisCoolMom:
Finally there can only be one first time you can never take that back.
A commonly accepted platitude, but totally meaningless.
Yeah, you only lose your "virginity" once, but there are also first times with individual lovers. And based on my own experience, some of those can be much more memorable and meaningful than the act of losing one's so-called virginity. (Especially when both of you have some idea of what you are doing and no qualms about doing it!)
Sorry, CoolMom, but you do seem to be preaching.
[ 12. July 2004, 02:10: Message edited by: jlg ]
Posts: 17391 | From: Just a Town, New Hampshire, USA | Registered: May 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Thanks be to God that there is only one first time...and that in many cases can be like's Hobbes' definition of life i.e. nasty, brutish and (mercifully)short.
As for whether it is 2 or 200 partners, well, who'll miss a slice off a cut loaf, CoolMom?
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThisCoolMom:
Without sounding preachy...
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:
God had intended the sex act to finalize the marriage deal.
Evidence for this assertion?
quote:
As well when you have sex a peice of you is left with that person because it's such a intimate thing between a couple.
Trust me, I didn't leave anything behind the first time I had sex. And when exactly was the first time, anyway? The first kiss? The first time a man made me come? First oral sex received? Given? First penetrative sex? If so, finger or penis? The whole first time mystique is complete hogwash to me.
quote:
I can remember my first kiss (with an Aussie and boy was he a good kisser) The second third etc I hardly remember.
This proves nothing. I vividly remember the second kiss from the first guy who kissed me, and I vividly remember many kisses from the second guy.
quote:
As I watch the Maury Povich show one day I saw a girl who's slept with over 200 guys. (a severe case of comparison but) Just imagine the tree that goes with that person not only has she slept with that person she has slept with everyone that has slept with that partner and partner's partner.
So what?
quote:
Sad to say in today's society where the church scares the kids thinking sex is dirty or only for child conceiving. It is the deepest expression of love between a married couple. Taint that expression with just any old boyfriend only leaves room for Jelousy for the partner. Leaving them wondering if the other person pleased them better.
Sex may be the deepest expression of love between a married couple, though I imagine some married couples might cite other things. When I consider the care some elderly people give to their spouses, I think perhaps the deepest expression of love between a married couple might be wiping the other person's ass and managing not to make them feel bad about not being able to do it themselves.
Sex can be a lot of things other than a deep expression of love; I think you've confined it too much. Anyone who wastes time wondering if the love of their life was better pleased in bed by an earlier partner needs to ask him/herself about how secure they are in the relationship and how secure they are in themselves. Some people need marriage to feel secure enough in a relationship to have sex, and I would never condemn that. But it's silly to say that all people are like that, because they just aren't.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Jack the Lass
Ship's airhead
# 3415
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Posted
Hi CoolMom
I think we're probably going to have to agree to disagree. Nothing I say will change your mind I'm sure, and nothing you've said has convinced me either. That's OK ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
What I had a problem with in your first post was the "sex before marriage is a bad idea" - i.e. bad for everyone at all times in all circumstances. What I was trying to say in my reply was that it can be a bad idea for some people, but that for others it can be an affirming and positive experience.
As to your response, I have a couple of thoughts:
quote:
Originally posted by ThisCoolMom:
It's sad to see such a beautiful and sacred thing to be used so fleatingly.
I wasn't suggesting that it is used like that - in some relationships it is every bit as intimate and committed and long-lasting as marriage. I'm just struggling a little with the view that people are either married and therefore having wonderful committed sacred sex, or they are not married and therefore their sex is meaningless. I think that those are two extremes that do happen, of course, but they're not the only scenarios.
quote:
Originally posted by ThisCoolMom:
As well when you have sex a peice of you is left with that person because it's such a intimate thing between a couple.
I'm inclined to agree with you on this. But I don't see why it's necessarily a bad thing, for a couple of reasons. One is that it's possible to give of yourself (I think I prefer "giving" rather than "leaving pieces") to other people without having sex (for example, as a nurse I have had to perform some very intimate acts, such as washing people or whatever, and I really think that I was giving myself to that person at those times) and that that act of giving of myself enriched me and made me in a very profound way more whole rather than taking a piece of me away. And secondly, whether or not we have had sex, we are all influenced by people we have had contact with, and all of those people have helped us to become who we are. So when I meet someone and find them attractive, the fact that they've had previous partners or not is one of the factors that have made them who they are and who I find attractive in the here and now. I don't dispute that sometimes fears of "comparison" are an issue, but they don't have to be.
I do realise by the way that if you take this argument to its logical conclusion you could say that if giving of yourself makes you more whole then the more people you sleep with the more whole you are. Of course that's not what I'm saying AT ALL. Just that I believe that whatever our pasts, God can redeem them and make us whole.
quote:
Originally posted by ThisCoolMom:
I saved myself for my husband (now deceiced) He didnt save himself for me and boy was I dissapointed. I have always dreamed that my first time would be with someone who saved himself.
I do have a problem with the thought of "saving oneself". At the risk of sounding preachy, it's Jesus who saves. I can't save myself, I can't redeem my sexuality, however "unsullied" (yeuch!) I may or may not be. I agree with Ruth about this one - if somebody has made a public commitment to me (and therefore not to previous partners) then that is way way more important and meaningful to me than those past relationships which are now over.
quote:
Originally posted by ThisCoolMom:
Sad to say in today's society where the church scares the kids thinking sex is dirty or only for child conceiving.
I couldn't agree more. I think the church and its teachings have a lot to answer for. Not necessarily that the teachings are wrong, but for the way something so profound has been simplified to "thou shalt not", end of discussion. The impression I get (forgive me if I'm wrong) from your post is that you see those who have had sex before marriage as "damaged goods" somehow (and I certainly get that impression from many people within our churches). For some people of course it can be damaging, but I really wonder sometimes if it's any more damaging than that emotional wasteland that the church expects those of us who are single (particularly those of us who are no longer in our 20s) to inhabit - a wasteland where we either have to commit to someone after one date, or forego any intimacy whatsoever.
Not that I've got issues or anything Grrr.
quote:
Originally posted by ThisCoolMom:
Finally there can only be one first time you can never take that back.
Well yes that's true. But I'm inclined to agree with jlg about this. Yes you only lose your virginity once (though "losing" or "giving" your virginity both seem like slightly bizarre concepts to me to be honest - it's just a state you happen to be in) but you can work to make every sexual encounter meaningful and loving. Personally I'd find sex more meaningful and loving in the context of a committed relationship (with marriage as the ideal of course). But that doesn't necessarily mean that sex in another context could not be meaningful or loving at all. I still end up with my original point - one size doesn't fit all, and it's not for me to judge the significance or meaningfulness (is that a word?!) of somebody else's decisions.
Finally:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I agree wholeheartedly with Jack the Lass.
Now that's definitely on the list of future .sigs ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"My body is a temple - it's big and doesn't move." (Jo Brand)
wiblog blipfoto blog
Posts: 5767 | From: the land of the deep-fried Mars Bar | Registered: Oct 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThisCoolMom:
If you desire sexual relations with said person then you really should be married.
Run that by us again?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
Yes, I'd like to have that clarified. It would seem to be saying that young persons should marry the first time somebody floats their boat, so to speak.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Scholar Gypsy
Shipmate
# 7210
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Posted
I know this has been touched on before, but I'd quite like some clarification.
I used to believe definitely that sex before marriage was wrong 'because the bible says so'. I no longer that inerrantist/infallible view, and am inclined to think that most of the teaching on sex in the bible is culturally conditioned, a result of a time when there was no contraception, etc.etc.
What I wondered was what authority those of you who think sex before marriage is ok (in some circumstances) are basing your opinion on? Is it your own reason, church teaching (most churches are pretty anti, IME) ?
I suppose what I'm really asking is - how do I know what is the right thing to do about this, and I wanted to hear some of your reasons.
Many thanks
xSx
Posts: 822 | From: Oxford | Registered: May 2004
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by xSx:
...I used to believe definitely that sex before marriage was wrong 'because the bible says so'. I no longer that inerrantist/infallible view, and am inclined to think that most of the teaching on sex in the bible is culturally conditioned, a result of a time when there was no contraception, etc.etc.
Way up the thread, I found
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
Apart from the naive 'The Bible says no sex before marriage' line, premissed largely (though not entirely) on the consistent mistranslation of Gk. porneia (sexual immorality/ impurity) as fornication,
It must have been on another thread where I remeber reading (possibly writing) a detailed list of the sexual mores prescribed in the Bible ... which don't actually prohibit sex before marriage. (But virginity is a commodity in the economic sense - a price is levied.)
quote:
Originally posted by xSx:
What I wondered was what authority those of you who think sex before marriage is ok (in some circumstances) are basing your opinion on? Is it your own reason, church teaching ... ?
I have the advantage here of being an Anglican, a member of a reformed church that allows me to own my own conscience. Most of the arguments (read above) against sex before marriage are not moral arguments but practical ones, and the practical issues are (still) under good control today.
So, my own reason.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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The Lady of the Lake
Shipmate
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Posted
Okay, I hope people will be a little tolerant of what I write here as I've not wandered into dead horses' territory before to my knowledge anyway.
With the no-sex-before-marriage thing, it tends to strike me that
1) we need to reflect a bit on why it's an issue for us today. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
2) why is this issue, concerning behaviour that tends to happen behind closed doors, privately, important whereas most people who worry about this aren't quite as anxious about each other's spending habits, among other things.
I wonder if we could apply individual test-cases to the traditional ethic to discover how we actually think about it in practice.
Would you say that it was wrong for the following people to have sex (outside marriage) ?
1) a couple where both partners are widowed, bringing up their own children, living in separate households because it's not financially practical for them to get married.
2) a couple who earn the minimum wage and who live together or not at all (seeing as the mother will get slightly more child benefit if she is unmarried than married or cohabiting).
3) a couple who aren't married because the parents of one of them disapproves of them marrying, or one of their churches disapproves.
4) a couple where at least the women is past the menopause and therefore can't conceive
btw they're all supposed to be monogamous, so STDs can't be a reason for saying 'no'.
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If I had a coat, I would get it.
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Rosy
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Posted
After a lot of thinking and praying about this issue, I came to the conclusion that sleeping with a partner in a monogamous relationship was ok by me. Sleeping around with every bloke who spoke to me was not. I've been with my current partner for 18 months, and yes we do sleep together. That doesn't mean that our entire relationship is based on sex however. We have an amazing bond, and beyond anything else, we are incredibly close friends. THIS is what our relationship is based on.
However, what really hurts my feeling is that my catholic housemates regard me as akin with a prostitute because I do sleep with my boyfriend. If people are going to make a decision, then fine, do so, stick to it, and don't judge anyone else on theirs. God is the true judge, and He alone.
Posts: 14 | From: Harbourne | Registered: Feb 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosy:
After a lot of thinking and praying about this issue, I came to the conclusion that sleeping with a partner in a monogamous relationship was ok by me. Sleeping around with every bloke who spoke to me was not. I've been with my current partner for 18 months, and yes we do sleep together. That doesn't mean that our entire relationship is based on sex however. We have an amazing bond, and beyond anything else, we are incredibly close friends. THIS is what our relationship is based on.
However, what really hurts my feeling is that my catholic housemates regard me as akin with a prostitute because I do sleep with my boyfriend. If people are going to make a decision, then fine, do so, stick to it, and don't judge anyone else on theirs. God is the true judge, and He alone.
Been there, done that. Got the scars and the kid to show for it.
C
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arse
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Padingtun Bear.
Bear of Very Little Brain
# 3935
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosy:
However, what really hurts my feeling is that my catholic housemates regard me as akin with a prostitute because I do sleep with my boyfriend. If people are going to make a decision, then fine, do so, stick to it, and don't judge anyone else on theirs. God is the true judge, and He alone.
I don't normally post down here, but...
When we make these sorts of decisions, we set up our own worldview based on them.
If someone believes that, from their interpretation of scripture, sex and marriage belong exclusively together, then they are entitled to that opinion, as you are to yours.
If they also believe, from their interpretation of scripture, that we should be accountable to other christian friends for our actions and correct each other gently and lovingly when we start to wander from God's path for our lives, then discussions can occur!
There's a difference in being discerning and being judgemental, and nowhere in scripture does it actually say that we should never even comment on what our fellow Christians are doing. No stone-throwing, yes, but well-explained voiced disapproval can be part of a caring and committed friendship. There are boundaries here - and words and actions can happen that can be very uncaring and unchristian.
I hope that your housemates will begin to act towards you with more kindness, but noone of us can force other people to change their opinions of us. What their worldview is is up to them, even though, from personal experience, this can be a hard thing to accept. At the end of the day, God's approval is the only thing that matters.
Right - trite preaching over for the day (sorry)
P. B.
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Shameless publicity for a great new book:
A voice from the fringe
Posts: 961 | From: South Oxfordshire | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rosy
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Posted
quote:
I hope that your housemates will begin to act towards you with more kindness, but no one of us can force other people to change their opinions of us.
What their worldview is is up to them, even though, from personal experience, this can be a hard thing to accept. At the end of the day, God's approval is the only thing that matters.
I don't want them to change their opinions. Their decisions are their own, and I don't judge them to be lesser people than me because of it. And even though I know God's opinion is the one that matter, it doesn't make the fact that people i considered friends are so judgemental any easier to bear
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Padingtun Bear.
Bear of Very Little Brain
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Posted
Yeah, much sympathy - didn't mean to offend.
Please do post on the prayer thread if you'd welcome the spiritual support...
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Shameless publicity for a great new book:
A voice from the fringe
Posts: 961 | From: South Oxfordshire | Registered: Jan 2003
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosy:
quote:
I hope that your housemates will begin to act towards you with more kindness, but no one of us can force other people to change their opinions of us.
What their worldview is is up to them, even though, from personal experience, this can be a hard thing to accept. At the end of the day, God's approval is the only thing that matters.
I don't want them to change their opinions. Their decisions are their own, and I don't judge them to be lesser people than me because of it. And even though I know God's opinion is the one that matter, it doesn't make the fact that people i considered friends are so judgemental any easier to bear
Rosy - what do you expect? You are doing something they find morally offensive and presumably you have changed your mind on the subject since moving in with your flatmates. They thought you thought one thing and now you have changed your mind. Understandably they are a bit narked off.
C
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arse
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosy:
However, what really hurts my feeling is that my catholic housemates regard me as akin with a prostitute because I do sleep with my boyfriend. If people are going to make a decision, then fine, do so, stick to it, and don't judge anyone else on theirs. God is the true judge, and He alone.
Despite my agreement with your thoughts on sex before marriage, I must say I think it rather unreasonable for you to expect your housemates not to judge you. People make moral judgements about others' actions all the time. It's not just wrong for me to lie, steal, cheat, kill, it's also wrong for other people to do those things, and I have no problem saying that. If someone thinks sex before marriage is wrong, why shouldn't they say so? If you were shop-lifting, would you expect your housemates not to judge you for it? Sure, to you and me shop-lifting and pre-marital sex are not comparable, but to your housemates they are.
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Caz...
Shipmate
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Posted
I'm not sure about that Ruth. Surely there has to be middle ground between accountability and "calling" it on a friend in love, and judgementalism... I don't any longer believe that sex before marriage is wrong. A good friend of mine, also a Christian, does. We can discuss it back and forth respectfully; he told me (in my single days) his concerns for me over it and I listened, responded, and we agreed to disagree.
He didn't approve of what I did, and he let me know that. But nor did he judge me, in the sense I think it's meant here.
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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Well, what is meant by "judge" here? When I say "XYZ is wrong," to me it's a judgement. I might say it in Christian Love™, but it's still a judgement.
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Caz...
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Heh, Ruth, I knew you'd say that
I guess I'd term it the difference between forming an opinion of someone's behaviour, and even telling them that opinion... and then respecting their right to disagree whilst still loving them and not ostracising them. Hate the sin, love the sinner type thing. That's a judgement I think you're free to make, to make your own opinion and share it honestly.
But when that judgement is something you use to cast aspersion on or treat someone more poorly with... then I think you're being judgemental , which to me has whole different undertones.
I just realised I used to be on the other side of this. About 7 years ago I shared a house with my best friend. We were both Christians, though I was more of a GLE than she was at that time. I was firmly anti sex before marriage. She, at the time, had a boyfriend who wasn't a Christian who she loved deeply, had been with for years before becoming a Christian, and they slept together.
It did really bother me. I felt like it wasn't what I'd signed up for when I opted into the house share (they'd briefly broken up then). And I was quite open with her about my take on such things; she knew I didn't think it was the best thing for her. But we talked equally, openly and on a level. I didn't ever (at least
I hope I didn't) try and make her feel guilty, I figured if I was right, God would do that in His own good time. Besides which I felt like if I painted her into a corner by going on about it, not only was I treating her poorly, which I wouldn't ever want to do, loving her as I do, but I was also making it much harder for her to make her own decision on it.
And you know what? These days she thinks pre-marital sex is wrong, while I think it's okay.
God must need a Panadol just watching us ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ 16. February 2005, 20:24: Message edited by: Caz... ]
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"What have you been reading? The Gospel according to St. Bastard?" - Eddie Izzard
Posts: 1888 | From: here to there | Registered: Jul 2002
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Rosy
Apprentice
# 9084
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Posted
quote:
They thought you thought one thing and now you have changed your mind. Understandably they are a bit narked off.
C [/QB]
No, this was discussed well before we moved in together, and I have not changed my mind. I made this decision several years ago. Actually, they have both changed their minds as it happens.
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Rosy
Apprentice
# 9084
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosy:
quote:
They thought you thought one thing and now you have changed your mind. Understandably they are a bit narked off.
C
No, this was discussed well before we moved in together, and I have not changed my mind. I made this decision several years ago. Actually, they have both changed their minds as it happens. [/QB]
quote:
Despite my agreement with your thoughts on sex before marriage, I must say I think it rather unreasonable for you to expect your housemates not to judge you.
There is a difference between judging people and calling them prostitutes!
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
They actually called you that?! That's rude. And if they knew you were having sex with your boyfriend before you all moved in, they should just deal.
But in principle, I'd still say that people have the right to express moral judgements. If I had a housemate who started coming in drunk and obnoxious every night, I wouldn't say something just once and let it drop. I'd say something about it pretty much every time I felt like it. Of course, I'd also move out at the earliest opportunity as well. (I've been roommate-free since 1993, thank goodness!)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Well, I'm in the weakest position to judge, having done it myself.
As I said, it brought much pain.
C
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arse
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Gill H
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# 68
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Posted
I certainly think they should express their opinions politely and respectfully, if at all, and respect your right to disagree.
A few years ago, a friend and I (who had both been firmly of the 'only in marriage' view) had a difficult conversation. Her marriage broke up and she moved in with another man. There were good reasons for the breakup, but few knew them, so her church shunned her. The next time I was in the area, I went to visit her and her new man. Afterwards she privately asked me what I honestly thought of what she was doing.
My answer was 'We both know what we believe about this issue. But my friendship with you isn't based on whether I approve of what you're doing. It's based on the fact that I'm me and you're you, and that hasn't changed. If my friends dumped me every time I did something they thought was wrong, I wouldn't have any friends.'
Not long later, she married the guy and they have been very happy since.
I still think sex is best left for marriage, and I'm glad I did, but others are free to differ. There are other appetites I find harder to control, and until I get those in check, I'm not in a position to throw stones.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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ComatoseSquirrel
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# 9094
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Posted
(I have to admit that I haven't read through every post on this thread, so hopefully someone has already mentioned this, but as of yet I haven't seen it brought up...)
But sure the whole idea of (Christian) marriage is that a couple are in a relationship with each and God - and this ideal, regardless of other views is the most important.
Therefore any descision in a relationship as big as when to have sex should be prayed about with your partner...
If your partner isn't a Christian, and you love them enough to consider sleeping with them, then shouldn't you also be considering letting them know who Jesus is...
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Don't you dare use the word 'party' as a verb in my shop!
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nzpakintl
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# 9095
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Posted
You can have as much sex out of marriage as you like it is not wrong. But it is not the best option and there are serious consequences. It has nothing to do with God not loving you or not going to heaven. If you are a follower of Christ do not justify it in anyway shape or form. If you have like me then there is no shame or guilt and you can be restored but I still cant erase what I have done. You might say I am getting married next week what is the big deal but do you want the best for your life and obey God fully or still have your own guidelines?
Posts: 1 | From: fsadfds | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Well, I'm glad we've got that settled.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Girl with the pearl earring
Apprentice
# 9151
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Posted
Phew!! I've spent the past week reading all the way through this thread (when I should really be working! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) ), and have finally reached the end and feel ready to make my first post! (Very appropriate that my 'first time' should be on this thread! )
I've been with my boyfriend for just over a year, and at the beginning of our relationship I wasn't looking for anything more than a bit of fun (and certainly no sex involved). Since then it's progressed, and I've fallen in love, and I can safely say I've never been so happy. Sex wasn't even a possibility until after about 9 months. He knew I 'didn't believe in sex before marriage', and respected that. (He isn't a Christian, although he was brought up as one, and is still trying to decide exactly what he believes, and we often have discussions about it.) But it got to the stage in our relationship when I just felt like it was right, and we started having sex after about 11 months of being together. I initated it, and I brought it up three times before he agreed, as he was very concerned that I shouldn't rush into anything and regret it later. I agree with those that have said that the first time isn't great - there were certainly no fire works - but it gets better. It wasn't his first time, he'd had one previous partner the summer before I met him.
No, we're not married, nor likely to be for the considerable future. But we've got a very stable relationship, which we both think will last forever. We're at university together, and I've got another 4 1/2 years of my course (total 6 years) to finish before I would want to be thinking about getting married. But we're committed to each other, and I certainly intend to be faithful (and hope and trust that he will too). Sex is part of our relationship, but it's not what our relationship is built on. We're best friends, and spent the first week after we'd met staying up til 6am just talking, so we know we can do conversation too! It just felt like a natural progression, and now it feels like another part of the bond that we have together.
I've changed my thoughts towards sex before marriage since falling in love. I still intend to only ever have one sexual partner, but I feel that we don't need a certificate to prove that we are committed to each other. One day (and it will be the happiest day of my life, and yes, every now and then I allow myself a little fantasy!) I expect we will get married, but right now I've got an amazing friend, who I fancy the pants off, and who I am head over heels in love with, and who I thank God for every time I think of.
My final point (I promise!): Because I did have very definite feelings against sex before marriage (which I now think seem very naive), I had to make a definite decision to change my mind. And this has made me very vulnerable. My boyfriend knows that I only ever intend to have one sexual partner, and when I gave myself to him it was a huge act of trust. In giving him my virginity I made a big commitment to our relationship, and I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't felt safe and secure in the relationship, and didn't trust him implicitly. I still can't imagine having sex outside a loving, permanent relationship.
Any comments gratefully recieved, and I hope I haven't broken any of the 10 commandments on my first post ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) !!
Posts: 26 | From: Cambridge UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Brave "Girl With a Pearl"! Here's a good quote from Elaine Storkey (at a conference 2-3 years ago).
"I'm over fifty years old. I've been married for over 30 years. I've had loads of sex. What makes me think I have the right to start preaching continence to young men and women today when I've forgotten what it feels like to have to practise continence"
The good news is there are a few in cyberspace who genuinely "get" what Elaine was saying - but there may well be others, safely parked in a marriage, who will have a go. I wouldn't take too much notice of them. But it is probably worth listening to those facing similar life choices who have made different decisions.
Amongst the things people forget is that the interval between sexual awakening and economically viable marriage is years longer than it was in Biblical times. And the sexualising pressures and mixed messages in our culture are very powerful.
From the perspective of someone who has been very happily married for almost 37 years, I wish you joy and fulfilment in your relationship and I hope that your trust, generosity and vulnerability are never abused.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Girl with the pearl earring
Apprentice
# 9151
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Posted
Thank you Barnabas!
As a slight aside, I find it very amusing that my boyfriend avoids words like 'marriage' and 'wife' like the plague: he talks about me still being his girlfriend when we're both retired. It's always a source of entertainment the lengths he goes to to avoid using the dreaded 'm' word, and my girlfriends all find it hilarious too! I know it's not through lack of committment, as we're both utterly committed to each other.
We have, on the other hand, talked about children. He's said that should, for some reason, our contraception fail and I fell pregnant he would be there and support me whatever I decided to do. This was a big thing for me, because it showed my that he really was committed, and understood at least one aspect of how our sleeping together made me vulnerable. I've always thought that people shouldn't do anything unless they're willing to accept the consequences, so when we started having sex it was bearing that in mind, and knowing that should it happen, our relationship was strong enough for us to handle the consequences together. He also offered to come to the doctors with me when I went to ask about contraception, which also really touched me, because I could see he was taking it seriously, and was really supportive over the decision I'd made.
Posts: 26 | From: Cambridge UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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