He popped up several months ago wondering how one went about being Christian and homosexual, but there was no-where on the boards he could ask this.

I think this would be a useful discussion to have. One thing, though:

If you believe homosexuality to be wrong and cannot bring yourself to take part in a 'what if' discussion, then please do not post on this thread.

There's plenty of places to say what you think, but there's a further question to be discussed:

GIVEN THAT, or SUPPOSING THAT, homosexual acts are not sinful, how is one to live ones life? There is an absence of role-models to which to look, so how do we relate what is given in Christianity to being gay? How should we do relationships as marriage isn't an option? Basically, what is to be done if we accept that God made us this way and it's OK?

I've got fairly strong views on this, but this is a call to debate, so over to you.

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If you believe homosexuality to be wrong and cannot bring yourself to take part in a 'what if' discussion, then please do not post on this thread.

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Joan -

This is a debate board and all threads are open to all points of view.

Enders Shadow was warned on Purgatory for doing exactly this - setting down preconditions for who could and who could not respond to his thread.

Unfortunately I can't find that thread to link to in Purgatory now - I suspect it's been deleted.

By all means, say what you would prefer to be discussed, but do not set stipulations as to who can or can't post.

Thank you.

Louise

PS. If you're not happy to do that please ask me and I will close this thread.

[edited to correct spelling]
host hat off

Fine - as long as anyone is free to respond within the usual guidelines.

Louise

host off/

[adding tags]

I highly recommend Jeffrey John's booklet "Permanent, Faithful, Stable", in the "Affirming Catholicism" series which deals with this very issue.

So - while I believe that sexual expression is OK within the context of a permanent, faithful, committed "marriage-like" relationship, if I were single, I'd consider myself called to celibacy, the same as any other single Christian. I don't believe that promiscuity is right.

As I think came up over and over on the Big Long Thread in Purgatory, it's awfully hard living as a lesbian or gay Christian. Because you don't really fit in in either community.

Luckily my partner and I have plenty of supporting friends, and a great home church which is very affirming and supportive of our love.

Courage Trust, who used to be part of Exodus and the ex-gay movement, have separated from them, saying that

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"experience has proved this ["coming out" of homosexuality] to be a counter-productive approach. The result of seeking the mind of Christ for this area of ministry in the light of many years experience, together with further bible study, has been to see that God recognises and supports sincere committed relationship between gay people where there is no likelihood of the possibility of marriage."

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They've also parted company from the Evangelical Alliance, because of this view that lesbians and gays have the same need for intimacy in relationships as anyone else.

Yes, God made you and He made no mistakes. However, the Christian life, for me, is a continual process of comparing myself to the standard Jesus set, and being honest when I realize that I am falling short. I am NOT saying that I know what is acceptable & what isn’t – especially for others. I am trying hard to discern what is Christ’s will for me, and what are old, sick patterns that He wants me to grow past, for my own benefit.

The way that God made me is indeed OK, but in response to the fallen world, and because I am fallen too, over years I have developed my own personal ways of coping, which are not optimally healthy for me. The best I can do is be honest with myself, & not pretend that because certain behaviors soothe me, that they are necessarily what God has in mind for me.

Next, I think that out of pain, scapegoated groups (like homosexuals) may withdraw into their own subculture. While totally understandable, a Christian homosexual should (IMHO) question whether that indeed is Christ’s plan for him or her. I know that it is only because of my exposure to “out” gays, that I have experienced that they are not exotics, just strugglers like all of us.

I am grateful to people like Innana who are honest and rigorous with themselves, despite plenty of reasons to retreat into “victimhood”. I know that the people in her congregation who know her & her partner, have been blessed, whether they realize it or not.

Basically, I just recognize & respond to love; and I recognize and respond to self-deception (as do we all). I am fortunate to have personally known gay couples who love and are committed to each other – in fact, I do suspect it may be easier to do this, than for couples who are of opposite genders (men and women are SO different).

I don't see why it would be different, the only difference is the sex of their partners.

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Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
If you believe homosexuality to be wrong and cannot bring yourself to take part in a 'what if' discussion, then please do not post on this thread.

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Ultraspike you've been warned about this and suspended before - for attacks on Chastmastr.

That is an unprovoked swipe at another Shipmate.

Apologise for it or I will turn this straight over to an admin.

Louise

host hat off.

[edited to clarify]

Louise has gone to bed, and asked me to take over.

Ultraspike, as an honest question, that's fine. Next time phrase it as a straightforward question and omit the rolling eyes smiley, and you won't get jumped on.

Host hat off

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Originally posted by RuthW:
RuthW
sexhostess

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Oh dear.. the images!!

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Originally posted by Ultraspike:
if you have fantasized about committing a homosexual act, done everything short of actually doing it (a la CM)

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So if you're fisting, having all the sensations (and more, probably, from what I've heard) of anal sex

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and then subsequently having an orgasm in private while flashing back on it

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Unless, of course, you're practicing kundalini, where you retain all the sexual energy for a higher purpose.

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I believe that Biblical norms exclude homosexuals from having a sexual relationship. I admit that sexual relationship is hard to define.

Now many christians disagree with my traditional view of Bible and church tradition.

The reason there is no role models in the bible or in tradition is because that it was considered to be outside christian practice.

If it was considered to be inside Christian norms there would be role models.

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:

Any way I simply wanted to say something as I was irritated by Joans OP.

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Ah well - basically, love to Chastmastr, I know I'll never understand you but that doesn't bother me if it doesn't bother you.

Marriage? What IS i?

Which of these couples have sinned more?
The gay/hetero (us) who married and have split up after 18 years,
OR
the gay male couple (one of whom was our Best Man) who are still together after 18 years?

That should keep the hair-splitters busy!

The role models are there, the role they model is that of Invisible Gay Christian. Due to extenuating circumstances.

Wasn't always the case.

Marriage CAN only be what our society dictates, but I'm not sure that the gay couple above are any less married than I am. Especially once I'm divorced...

Clear? Good!!

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The reason Mid that we make a distinction between homosexuality and hetrosexuality is that as christians is that we should attempt to live by Biblical norms.

I believe that Biblical norms exclude homosexuals from having a sexual relationship. I admit that sexual relationship is hard to define.

Now many christians disagree with my traditional view of Bible and church tradition.

The reason there is no role models in the bible or in tradition is because that it was considered to be outside christian practice.

If it was considered to be inside Christian norms there would be role models.

Any way I simply wanted to say something as I was irritated by Joans OP.

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I took that post as quite condescending, I trust you didn't mean it that way?

I am surprised that there are still closed minded people who believe they are right about everything. IT's not up to ANY OF US to say that homosexuality is right or wrong, it is ONLY up to God. Until He tells each one of us, then we should love the person as they are, and as such it should not matter what sexual preference they are.

I really hope that there are no homosexual people/couples in your church, I pity any that are there.

Take a look at my signature - TAKE NOTE!

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The mid said then we should love the person as they are, and as such it should not matter what sexual preference they are.

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Please advise me where I said you shouldn't?

Nightlamp and The Mid: If you wish to continue your personal tit for tat (pun intended), please take it to Hell rather than derail this thread.

bunny ears off

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Originally posted by Ultraspike:
So accidental orgasms are okay? How very monastic.

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Originally posted by Gracia:
RuthW:
Do you plan to take your bunny ears off after Easter?

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Heck, no! You've got the wrong bunny -- think Playboy.

On a more serious note ...

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:

The reason there is no role models in the bible or in tradition is because that it was considered to be outside christian practice.

If it was considered to be inside Christian norms there would be role models.

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I was actually enjoying what was shaping up to be an interesting "how can we live with integrity" type discussion, and it's gotten all horribly derailed and personal and insulting (not to mention focusing on specific practices again...)

To get back on topic:

Seb, I agree with you totally about the gay subculture. I think an awful lot of the anger there comes out of feeling rejected by mainstream society. So, it's safer to retreat to a ghetto, develop one's own music styles, dress preferences, language/slang, have specific clubs to go to, certain festivals ... (and gosh, this is sounding ever so reminiscent of another subculture too...)

The outrageous behaviour that one sees, often on TV screens after gay pride marches, seems to me to be saying "OK, you want to reject me? Right! I'll go out and be everything you're terrified I wil be. You think I'm bad now? Watch how bad I can be."

It's this core of "I'm bad" - (I think it's more than internalised homophobia, because I know plenty of non-gay people who struggle with the same thing) - which so badly needs to be healed. And, unfortunately, it's exactly that core which the Church keeps wounding, intentionally or not.

Peace,

Inanna,
I can't find any post by Chastmastr which is in the wrong thread. He made a comment directly related to this thread and was then attacked over it leading to an exchange of views with Ultraspike.

You're right however, such an exchange of views seems to be personal and as such doesn't belong in the general discussion on this thread.

Chastmastr and Ultraspike - if you want to continue this exchange can you do so in Hell?

Thanks
Louise.

On a different topic altogether:

JJ,
Joans OP asks

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GIVEN THAT, or SUPPOSING THAT, homosexual acts are not sinful, how is one to live ones life? There is an absence of role-models to which to look, so how do we relate what is given in Christianity to being gay? How should we do relationships as marriage isn't an option? Basically, what is to be done if we accept that God made us this way and it's OK?

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If you want to argue the rights or wrongs of homosexuality, you should do so on the thread on that subject already open on this board 'Homosexuality, are we all against it?'

And the same applies to anyone wanting to argue that point with JJ - we have another thread for that.

Louise

host hat off

[clarifying]

I was thinking that christian tradition says something about hetrosexual relationships but is quite silent about homosexual relationships. Hence the need for people to create models for todays society.

All I can tell you is that I know one openly gay and openly Christian gentleman. He is the nicest person! I enjoy talking to him and he has been very kind to me, and everyone else I know of. He's thoughtful, intelligent, and generous. Today I was helping to serve communion, and as I passed the wine to him, saying, "The blood of Christ, shed for you," it seemed exactly the same as when I passed it to anyone else.

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JJ,
Joans OP asks

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GIVEN THAT, or SUPPOSING THAT, homosexual acts are not sinful, how is one to live ones life? ... How should we do relationships as marriage isn't an option? Basically, what is to be done if we accept that God made us this way and it's OK?

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:

Please advise me where I said you shouldn't?

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You implied it, and then changed what you said afterwards.

But don't anyone worry. I am not going to bother engaging this individual in any more posts.

He was irritated by Joan's OP? Well, I am irritated by all his so far on this thread.

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Originally posted by Louise:
Chastmastr and Ultraspike - if you want to continue this exchange can you do so in Hell?

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