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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Living as a Christian Homosexual
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
"a FORMER gay"???!!!!!
Sounds like a born-again virgin to me...
(or a nulliparous multipara).
As we say in Oz:
Come off the bloody grass!!!
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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dorothea
Goodwife and low church mystic
# 4398
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Posted
Gay people sometimes become straight, straight people become gay. Sexuality isn't always fixed, you know. People struggle to find themselves. Sometimes they fall in love, sometimes they learn to love. Only God can judge our hearts.
IMO, Religious fundamentalism doesn't help anyone with it's emphasis on words such as 'perversion' and 'wickedness'. In fact, I am sure it may do great harm.
And when I come to stand before my maker, he will know how I feel about this issue and if I am damned by assocation, well at least I won't get to hang out with the moral majority!
Today in church we sang a hymn which asks God to help the church be as one. How can we ever be as one when we cannot accept each other as we are. sinful and fallen each and every one of us . Why can't we stop, judging and labelling and just get on with it?
I'm finally starting to see why this is seen by so many as a Dead Horse; metaphorically, I'm banging my head on the desk! Having said that, I am glad the geezer in question has found a loving wife but I would like enlighten the ears of the person who writes dares write to watchergirl in such a bloody rude way: Get on with your own life mate!
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) J
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Protestant head? Catholic Heart?
http://joansbitsandpieces.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1581 | From: Notlob City Limits | Registered: Apr 2003
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
Gay people sometimes become straight, straight people become gay. Sexuality isn't always fixed, you know. People struggle to find themselves. Sometimes they fall in love, sometimes they learn to love. Only God can judge our hearts.
J
Dorothea,
While I agree that sexuality isn't always fixed and is more fluid then our label-loving society like yo give it credit for, there is the very real problem of the Ex-gay movement (organizations like Exodus) which has caused much suffering to gay people out of a very real agenda.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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dorothea
Goodwife and low church mystic
# 4398
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Posted
Seraphin,
I meant to suggest that such groups should stop crusading and let people be.
quote:
IMO, Religious fundamentalism doesn't help anyone with it's emphasis on words such as 'perversion' and 'wickedness'. In fact, I am sure it may do great harm.
Maybe I'm saying it seems like a Dead Horse cos I don't know how the heck to do when the factions are such poles apart and even ++Williams is taking a careful line. When I stand in my own church with its links to Namibia and a combination of liberals and evangelicals, I don't want it all to fall apart.
(I have no answers; only prayer)
J
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Protestant head? Catholic Heart?
http://joansbitsandpieces.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1581 | From: Notlob City Limits | Registered: Apr 2003
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unkl Davy:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Well, erm, there may be one or two folks around here who might disagree about that..
Gee, ya think?
However, it seems odd that what so many gays have wanted and prayed for to happen for them, would seem like an UNhappy ending ... when it actually happens to someone.
With all the tolerance that is demanded of us straights, why can't a former gay be tolerated for what he is? A FORMER gay. Is that so wrong?
Lovely. Still posting glowing testimonies about Mr Jernigan, 16 months (18 June 2002) after you originally promoted him (see approx a dozen posts previous on this thread) I see. It's fairly offensive to categorise people by their sexuality, viz. 'a gay' as opposed to 'a gay person'. But let's let that one go.
Of course it's not wrong Unkl Davey dear. You can touch yourself wherever you want. I'm very happy for Mr Jernigan, the 'FORMER gay'. I'll tolerate him as whatever he wants to be tolerated as. If he could make it something that would make me slap my thigh while guffawing, say... a spinet-playing klismaphiliac with a thing about card tables; even better. Shame though, 'cos he was quite a hottie.
But seeing as he is a 'FORMER gay', why don't you take your adulation of him elsewhere and not sully this thread which is about gay people living Christian lives?
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
And now a heart warming story about a black person in South Africa under apartheid who finally got themselves re-classified as white due to the repeated application of potentially carcinogenic skin-lightening creams and a lot of hair straightening. An example to oppressed black people everywhere about how they can change if they only try hard enough. The person was thus able to legally marry their white boyfriend and live happily after after, but maybe it would have been better to tackle apartheid instead?
quote:
"Please pray and seek God's guidance about this. God is very clear about it. Pursuing this sin will keep you from a lot of blessings and closeness to Him. As will other sins of course, but this will get a very stronghold on you. You were not created to desire women. It is not of and pleasing to God. All of us deal with strong temptations, but with His help we can overcome."
Watchergirl as you will have seen from the other homosexuality thread on this board, your friend is talking rot. The biblical verses are far from clear and many Christians in good conscience do not take this line. As for your so-called friend pretending to know the mind of God on this one and how it will cause God to withold blessings from you and reject you, that is poisonous and arrogant shit. It's effectively saying 'if you don't accept my view on this part of scripture, which is if course God's view, then God will smite you!'
On the other thread a while back, Wood posted this
What the Bible says and doesn't say on homosexuality
which is by an American evangelical who challenges the tradional view on the matter. It might be of interest, you could always send it to your 'friend' if you think it useful.
cheers,
Louise
L.
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Faithful Sheepdog
Shipmate
# 2305
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by watchergirl:
I wish there were more Christian L/G/B people I could discuss approaches to this sort of thing with. To return to Joan the Outlaw Dwarf's original question, I suppose I'm partly asking - where do I find more support and guidance in all the areas where my Christian life and my sexuality cross over? I'm also partly just ranting.
Dear watchergirl
Since nobody seems to have answered your question directly yet, I'll have a go.
There are two UK organisations which may be able to help you. One is the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement. In the light of my posts elsewhere on the ship, you may be amazed to hear that I know someone active in LGCM who was a consultant to the recent Manchester conference. She has a lesbian partner, too.
At the other end of the scale is True Freedom Trust. I have known the founder of this ministry since my teenage days. He has been celibate for many years, although he once wasn't. This group closely reflects my own views.
Both these groups are likely to give you a warm welcome, but as you can see, they are at opposite ends of the spectrum in theological and political thought. You must make your own choices here.
You may also wish to consult the Bridges Across the Divide website.
I know that some churches have support groups for people struggling with all sorts of sexual issues in their life - that is another option.
These groups are not always where you might expect to find them. In Edinburgh the big conservative evangelical Anglican (Episcopal) church dominated by students and 20-somethings had one the last time I looked. There may be others in Edinburgh of which I am unaware.
I think it's quite normal to have all sorts of issues in the twenties about integrating one's faith and one's sexuality. I know I certainly did, even as a heterosexual.
Best wishes to you
Neil
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"Random mutation/natural selection works great in folks’ imaginations, but it’s a bust in the real world." ~ Michael J. Behe
Posts: 1097 | From: Scotland | Registered: Feb 2002
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
Ugh I didn't want to get involved in this but here I go.
I'm a 23 year old lesbian and had never experienced heterosexual attraction until very recently when a particular attraction appeared out of the blue. While I can't exactly call myself ex-gay I am more open to the idea heterosexuality than I used to be - I suppose I can no longer call myself 100% pure lesbian though I am *almost* exclusively attracted to women.
However I've had to consider what impact it would have if I did have a relationship with a man. It's especially sensitive because I've only become a Christian *very* recently and I could see people interpreting such a relationship in the wrong way. I don't want people looking at me and saying that Christ healed me of my homosexuality and then going off and stomping on other gay Christians in a "she changed - why can't you change?" kind of way. Though the heterosexual attraction began at almost exactly the same moment as my religious conversion I do think it's a coincidence. I certainly don't consider myself superior or herald it as a great virtue. I believe that God made me gay and I don't believe that God makes mistakes, so I would never ask to be made straight.
So to answer the question about the happy/unhappy ending: I have no problem with a person moving from homosexual relationships to heterosexual: I wish them all the best and hope it works for them. What I do resent is when people make this change and then use it as a platform from which to crusade against other gay people.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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watchergirl
Shipmate
# 5071
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Papio:
quote:
How on earth do I deal with this?
Hmm, I know I don't know all the cicumstances but unless it is someone whose views you value I would simlply tell him/her to f**k off.
While I was slightly more polite than that, that is basically what I did. Hmm.
Fr. Gregory: Some interesting thoughts! Thanks ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot (Icarus):
My only comfort is that One Day these people will have to stand before God and explain why they excluded, persecuted, and made His gay children stumble.
Praps someone like Degs can tell you about organised support groups in Churches.
Maybe so. It's not my place to judge them. I need to work on forgiving, I think. I'm a member of LGCM, a Christian gay organisation, where I'm starting to get to know people. Thanks.
dorothea: Your sentiments on changing sexuality are thought-provoking. Thanks for your support, too.
Louise: Interesting article. I've heard a lot of his arguments before, but they are clearly laid out there. Might be of use to some evangelicals I know of. Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by Faithful Sheepdog:
There are two UK organisations which may be able to help you. One is the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement. In the light of my posts elsewhere on the ship, you may be amazed to hear that I know someone active in LGCM who was a consultant to the recent Manchester conference. She has a lesbian partner, too.
Why would I be amazed by that? I haven't read your other posts (I'm still new here) but I assume that you're a Christian who cares about all sorts of people.
quote:
At the other end of the scale is True Freedom Trust. I have known the founder of this ministry since my teenage days. He has been celibate for many years, although he once wasn't. This group closely reflects my own views.
Thanks. I have no wish to be involved with True Freedom Trust (sorry, but - *shudder*). I'm already involved with LGCM.
quote:
I think it's quite normal to have all sorts of issues in the twenties about integrating one's faith and one's sexuality. I know I certainly did, even as a heterosexual.
Good point. It's not my sexuality I'm having issues with, though, but rather other people's responses to it. That's what's very painful at the moment.
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Let there be peace on earth
And let it begin with me
Posts: 96 | From: London | Registered: Oct 2003
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by skielight:
I'm a 23 year old lesbian and had never experienced heterosexual attraction until very recently when a particular attraction appeared out of the blue. While I can't exactly call myself ex-gay I am more open to the idea heterosexuality than I used to be - I suppose I can no longer call myself 100% pure lesbian though I am *almost* exclusively attracted to women.
However I've had to consider what impact it would have if I did have a relationship with a man. It's especially sensitive because I've only become a Christian *very* recently and I could see people interpreting such a relationship in the wrong way. I don't want people looking at me and saying that Christ healed me of my homosexuality and then going off and stomping on other gay Christians in a "she changed - why can't you change?" kind of way. Though the heterosexual attraction began at almost exactly the same moment as my religious conversion I do think it's a coincidence. I certainly don't consider myself superior or herald it as a great virtue. I believe that God made me gay and I don't believe that God makes mistakes, so I would never ask to be made straight.
If you think that the attraction is real and mutual then go for it, and don't worry about his gender. You can tell off the conservatives that want to use you to score points against other LGBT people as easily as you told off the ones that told you you were going to Hell!
You don't want to miss a good relationship for political reasons.
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
Skielight---thank you for your post.
Can I give the other side of the situation? When I was 24, I married my best friend/soul mate. Like you, he was almost exclusively attracted to men---but he fell in love with me and tried to convince himself that he could be happy in a heterosexual relationship.
Long story short, he couldn't. And we both suffered much pain and anguish because he couldn't.
I believe that bisexuality exists, but I believe that people who experience nearly exclusive attraction to their own sex are unlikely to find lasting happiness with an opposite sex partner.
Your mileage may vary, of course---but it is worth considering the long-term ramifications of going against your own inclinations.
Best of luck, whatever you decide.
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by paigeb:
Skielight---thank you for your post.
Can I give the other side of the situation? When I was 24, I married my best friend/soul mate. Like you, he was almost exclusively attracted to men-
Noooo nooo women. I like women. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
Something which I'm not sure you've realised is that I've given up even trying to control my sexual orientation. It is whatever it is and it's out of my control anyway. So it's not a case of "Maybe I'll throw in the towel on this lesbianism thing and get married to a guy. That would be a lot easier." At this stage I don't have the faintest idea if I could love a man or not. I'm not at the stage of considering the long-term ramifications because I've not even been on a date with a man!
I'm sorry to hear about the experiences you had in your own marriage paigeb and I'm sure you're not alone - it's a very sad thing that gay people feel so much pressure to be straight that they marry against their instincts. However I think that that comes more as a result of a determination to fight the inevitable. People can convince themselves of almost anything if they're determined enough - temporarily at least. I'm trying not to imbue this particular experience with too much significance. If anything, I prefer being gay anyway.
Try: it's not going to develop into a relationship for various complicated reasons which I'm not going to go into as it would take a long time and probably nobody's interested anyway.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Try
Shipmate
# 4951
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by skielight:
Try: it's not going to develop into a relationship for various complicated reasons which I'm not going to go into as it would take a long time and probably nobody's interested anyway.
I was just offering my thoughts- you are the best judge of your situation. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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“I’m so glad to be a translator in the 20th century. They only burn Bibles now, not the translators!” - the Rev. Dr. Bruce M. Metzger
Posts: 852 | From: Beautiful Ohio, in dreams again I see... | Registered: Sep 2003
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Paige
Shipmate
# 2261
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Posted
skielight---I did realize that you are attracted to women. Forgive me---it was just poor grammar on my part.
I guess I was just reacting to Try's suggestion that you explore a heterosexual relationship, after you had made it very clear that your primary attraction was to women. As I've noted, I have good reason to be leery of that sort of suggestion.
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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection
Posts: 886 | From: Sweet Tea Land, USA | Registered: Jan 2002
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iGeek.*
Resident alien
# 3207
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Posted
Addressing the question of where one can go for mutual support in working out how to live as a Christian gay person:
In addition to Bridges Accross the Divide (which is more about dialog between people on all sides of the "issue"), there is Gay Christian Net which has a message board and a very nice community of folks (I've met a number of them IRL) who approach being gay and Christian from a number of perspectives but have, so far, been reasonably respectful of one another. Promotion of the ex-gay view is not permitted there, however, even though there are people who are Side B (using the terminology defined at B-A).
Also, look into MCC churches or other "affirming" or "reconciling" churches. I go to a reconciling united methodist church in Houston, for example, that I find a great spiritual home *and* a sanctuary from spiritual violence. There are equivalent church networks in Presbyterianism, American Baptists and other denominations, I'm sure.
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.sig on holiday
Posts: 702 | From: Hot-on-us, TX | Registered: Aug 2002
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iGeek.*
Resident alien
# 3207
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Posted
Rats. Didn't edit fast enuf. Sorry for the double-post but the reference to the definition of Side B can be found here .
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.sig on holiday
Posts: 702 | From: Hot-on-us, TX | Registered: Aug 2002
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Faithful Sheepdog
Shipmate
# 2305
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by watchergirl:
Thanks. I have no wish to be involved with True Freedom Trust (sorry, but - *shudder*). I'm already involved with LGCM.
Good point. It's not my sexuality I'm having issues with, though, but rather other people's responses to it. That's what's very painful at the moment.
watchergirl - point noted and taken.
Part of TFT's work is done with the friends, relatives and spouses of same-sex attracted people. TFT may be able to help the other people in your life conduct themselves a little less painfully, even if their ministry is not for you personally.
For completeness I should also have mentioned EnCourage Trust, who have a similar outlook to TFT, but work from within the UK RC Church.
Neil
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"Random mutation/natural selection works great in folks’ imaginations, but it’s a bust in the real world." ~ Michael J. Behe
Posts: 1097 | From: Scotland | Registered: Feb 2002
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
This "Encourage Trust" sounds a lot like the Group "Courage" for RC's in the US who wanted to live according to the teachings of the Church.
I used to go to several of their meetings before i came out. Everyone seemed to be "cruising" everyone else. Just seemed plainly hypocrisy.
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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musician
Ship's grin without a cat
# 4873
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Posted
I posted on "State rights" currnetly in Purgatory and Ruth re-directed me here.
What a thought provoking thread.
Why can't the Churches (all of them) come out of the BC era and stop hounding homosexual people??
The posts suggesting that "they" can "get help" from "caring Christians" sounds deeply offensive to me.
Why do Christians feel they've a right to persecute a group and then make out like they(the christians) are doing it as "Christians."
If no-one hounded anyone else, we could all get on with living.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Aug 2003
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The Wasteland
Apprentice
# 4700
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Posted
All this nonsense about Ex-Gay Ministries really angers me. Everyone barring a handful of religious nutters knows full well that these ministries have been a catastrophic disaster for the mental health of those who have been conned into listening to them.
The only long term study of “ex-gay” success that has ever been done was done by two New York psychologists, Ariel Shidlo and Michael Schroeder. Their study involved ongoing personal interviews over a period of 5 years (as opposed to a single phone interview conducted by other researchers). In the end, they found that 88% of the people had no change in their orientation, 9% reported being asexual or conflicted (and primarily celibate) and 3% reported being able to function as heterosexuals.
There is some speculation that the 3% were bisexuals, already, as this wasn’t verified. No physical tests were done to prove that such change was actually accomplished, as this was all self-reporting.
Shidlo and Scroeder noted that a large number of their interviewees reported emotional trauma or damage as a result of the programs.
I think it’s important to remember that most gay people do not enter reparative therapy and the ones that do and are really committed to it, as were the people in this study, are the most motivated to change, and often desperate to do so. And, still, only 3% of these highly motivated people actually achieved any heterosexual functioning.
The conclusion we can draw from this straight away is that, even when highly committed, only 3% (a tiny minority) of gay and lesbian people can successfully live their lives in the manner in which the Evangelicals demand.
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but there is no water...
Posts: 27 | From: The wilderness | Registered: Jul 2003
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Unkl Davy
Shipmate
# 2777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot (Icarus):
quote:
Originally posted by Unkl Davy:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Well, erm, there may be one or two folks around here who might disagree about that..
Gee, ya think?
However, it seems odd that what so many gays have wanted and prayed for to happen for them, would seem like an UNhappy ending ... when it actually happens to someone.
With all the tolerance that is demanded of us straights, why can't a former gay be tolerated for what he is? A FORMER gay. Is that so wrong?
Lovely. Still posting glowing testimonies about Mr Jernigan, 16 months (18 June 2002) after you originally promoted him (see approx a dozen posts previous on this thread) I see. It's fairly offensive to categorise people by their sexuality, viz. 'a gay' as opposed to 'a gay person'. But let's let that one go.
Of course it's not wrong Unkl Davey dear. You can touch yourself wherever you want. I'm very happy for Mr Jernigan, the 'FORMER gay'. I'll tolerate him as whatever he wants to be tolerated as. If he could make it something that would make me slap my thigh while guffawing, say... a spinet-playing klismaphiliac with a thing about card tables; even better. Shame though, 'cos he was quite a hottie.
But seeing as he is a 'FORMER gay', why don't you take your adulation of him elsewhere and not sully this thread which is about gay people living Christian lives?
Basically, Coot, I don't give a rip what you think or want me to do.
Posts: 216 | From: Silicon Valley | Registered: May 2002
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unkl Davy in response to my post of 28 Oct 2003:
Basically, Coot, I don't give a rip what you think or want me to do.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Oh dear. I'm afraid you're past your use by date. Come on. Try and respond a bit sooner than 4 months after my post.
Next!
[ 15. February 2004, 15:36: Message edited by: Laura ]
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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John Donne
Renaissance Man
# 220
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Posted
[I asked Laura to remove a word which in the cold harsh light of 2.1 minutes after posting was inappropriate. Apologies]
Posts: 13667 | From: Perth, W.A. | Registered: May 2001
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Unkl Davy
Shipmate
# 2777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
quote:
Originally posted by Unkl Davy in response to my post of 28 Oct 2003:
Basically, Coot, I don't give a rip what you think or want me to do.
Oh dear. I'm afraid you're past your use by date. Come on. Try and respond a bit sooner than 4 months after my post.
Next!
Laugh all you want, happy boy, but the reason I didn't see your reply for these last four months is I really don't bother with this site much anymore. It's not worth the effort. I originally thought this site had some merit to it, but have discovered differently. But for the sake of morbid curiosity, I check back in from time to time.
Posts: 216 | From: Silicon Valley | Registered: May 2002
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Scot
Deck hand
# 2095
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Posted
For the sake of my own morbid curiosity, what convinced you that we are free of all merit?
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“Here, we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.” - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 9515 | From: Southern California | Registered: Jan 2002
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Unkl Davy
Shipmate
# 2777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scot:
For the sake of my own morbid curiosity, what convinced you that we are free of all merit?
Did I ever say YOU or any PERSON is free of merit? God values all persons. No matter how saintly or how twisted. But, IMHO – as I said – this “SITE” doesn't merit much effort. It seemed like a good idea when I first discovered it a few years ago. But I have come to find it’s mostly a bathhouse for liberal ideology and twisted theology. (At least in Purg and Hell.) The floors get so sticky with all the PC members stroking themselves, I just don't need/want to bother with it much anymore. You all are gonna convince yourselves of what you wanna convince yourselves of, whether or not it has any merit with historical Biblical theology. So I’m just not gonna bother with it any more.
So don’t bother bouncing any follow ups on me, cuz I’m thru getting caught up in your sport. And if you don’t believe that I can live very well without visiting here often … go check out my post history. I post for a few days, then remember WHY it’s fruitless to bother and don’t show up again for several months.
I just have to get rid of this morbid curiosity someday, then you won’t have to worry about me darkening your doors … in as much as I know it's so much fun to pounce on folks like me when we offer up "our" alternate view of what's what in life.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
Posts: 216 | From: Silicon Valley | Registered: May 2002
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear David
Although it is probably true that the majority of those who post here are from liberal Protestant traditions this probably just reflects the tendency of these non-confessional sites to attract such contributors. The value of the Ship is that it is a place where we can all listen to each other and debate. Indeed the virulence of that debate sometimes eclipses the tame, agreeable, mutual admiration that passes for theological enagement on other more monochrome sites.
The Ship has no confessional orientation and it is up to those who have conservative, liberal, radical, ultramontane or just plain dotty views to defend them with rational arguments. When passions gets roused there's always "Hell" to cool off.
I have come in for a lot of stick from time to time on these boards for very un-pc views on the standing of the Orthodox Church and (at the moment) on my position concerning the dangers posed by militant Islam. On other issues my perspective could be characterised as ultra-liberal.
This matters not in the context of debate but it DOES matter TO ME that I am able to defend my views and beliefs charitably without watering them down ... albeit always open to the possibility of change. I need that for my own spiritual life ... not just because I have to abide by the rules here.
It would be a shame if anyone felt that their views could not be contributed here. This is faulty reasoning on the following grounds ...
(1) There are no theological constraints here.
(2) The absence of dissenting voices does no favours to the search for truth.
Indeed, a refusal to engage might be considered by some to be cowardice. Saying "it's a waste of time" is a counsel of despair and an admission that one has views that probably won't stand up to scrutiny. I once left the Ship in similar circumstances until I realised that my justifications represented a weakness on my part. This is a challenge that you can safely reject or ignore of course; a challenge to stay and engage. I'm sure you're man enough to do that.
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Hmmmm ... I think we should return to the subject matter of the thread!
Discussions as to the merits of the Ship and personal posts belong on other boards.
Thank you
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Unkl Davy
Shipmate
# 2777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
Hmmmm ... I think we should return to the subject matter of the thread!
Discussions as to the merits of the Ship and personal posts belong on other boards.
Thank you
It's a dead horse... what'dya care about topics? Besides, I'm finished. Bye for at least several months... if not longer.
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"Lately, everything has been coming my way ... I think I'm in the wrong lane."
Posts: 216 | From: Silicon Valley | Registered: May 2002
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Unkl Davy:
quote:
Originally posted by TonyK:
Hmmmm ... I think we should return to the subject matter of the thread!
Discussions as to the merits of the Ship and personal posts belong on other boards.
Thank you
It's a dead horse... what'dya care about topics? Besides, I'm finished. Bye for at least several months... if not longer.
Well, Unkl Davy ...
I care because I am the host on this board and it is my job to care.
However - I didn't make my status clear on my previous post as I should have done, for which I apologise.
Hope to see you back soon
Yours aye ... TonyK
Dead Horses Host
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
Seems most relevant to this thread. I was going to post in Purgatory, but thought I'd save the hosts the effort of kicking us down here...
According to recent news, on Pentecost Sunday, some people in some Roman Catholic parishes wore rainbow sashes to proclaim that they were gay in sexual identity. According to news sources, in Chicago, the Eucharist was refused on instruction of the Bishop. In Minneapolis, the Bishop permitted rainbow sash wearers the Eucharist, but other lay members from a group called "Ushers of the Eucharist" blocked them from the communion rail by kneeling in prayer.
I don't know what to think. Some of the statements made in Minneapolis appear to imply that Ushers of the Eucharist consider homosexual orientation (not acts) a sin. But, surely it is up to the priest and the bishop to decide who to admit to communion?
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
How very, very sad.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
It might be a bit too much "I am Spartacus," but I wonder if anyone's thought of getting a whole lot of straight people to wear rainbow sashes to mass alongside the gays and lesbians.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
What a cool idea--I'd be willing to wear one, if it would help anything.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
I think it would be a good idea for people to play Spartacus at a conference or something like that, but I don't like the idea of protesting at a Church service.
The Catholic Church views people as people, not as heterosexuals or homosexuals. This allows people to unite in a Church service without asking questions about who sleeps with whom.
On the one hand, there are many gay and lesbian people who don't want their lives being peered into regarding sexuality and/or activity, on the other hand there are those who want to wear badges in Church and parade it.
At this time within certain churches, there are Priests and other ministers who will act charitably and not interfere with people (concerning prying about their private lives), our of love and charity. If those who are not interfered with then advertise publically that they are having gay sexual activity, it forces the Priests' or Ministers' hands, in churches where the official position requires it.
There is a time and a place for everything, I don't believe a Church service is the right place to protest for any cause.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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magnum mysterium
Shipmate
# 3418
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Posted
That's absolute bulldust. You mean we just sit there and agree with everything? The body of Christ ought not tacitly accept something that isn't right. Too often it has.
Posts: 3095 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
So we just let the Archbishop of NZ spout forth his homophobic crap in sermons? He is calling for a "world without gays." Seems to me he's using the pulpit and his power to proclaim his political viewpoint. Why does everyone else have to put up and shut up?
I'm very miserable about this development - it was his very first sermon following election.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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HenryT
Canadian Anglican
# 3722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
So we just let the Archbishop of NZ spout forth his homophobic crap in sermons?
I hadn't heard of this. I found this reaction and this earlier report.
Pretty nasty.
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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788
Posts: 7231 | From: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2002
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ChristinaMarie
Shipmate
# 1013
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Posted
I was writing in the context of what went before - people delberately organising themselves to protest at a Church service. I was NOT writing about people sitting there taking abuse from the pulpit.
Christina
Posts: 2333 | From: Oldham | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
It might be a bit too much "I am Spartacus," but I wonder if anyone's thought of getting a whole lot of straight people to wear rainbow sashes to mass alongside the gays and lesbians.
Makes me wish I was Catholic, Ruth. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
ChristinaMarie, I think I would be tempted to protest in a service after this. After all, his views are very political - he can't pretend otherwise, however much he hides behind his "culture." A quiet, dignified protest in a service would be more polite than using power in this way.
Regarding the culture issue, I want to knock the heads of the other bishops together. Randerson and Jamieson should know better.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Already posted in the praise thread, but now hear this-- The Protection of Marriage Act (a proposed amendmant to the American constitution resrticting marriage to a man and a woman) did NOT pass! Major victory! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
If I heard correctly, the strategy now is proposing legislation that will accomplish a similar goal, which I suppose would be eventually decided by the Supremes.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Meaning there are plans to sue gay people who get married?
(not sure what it means.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zeke
Ship's Inquirer
# 3271
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Posted
I doubt that it means invoking states' rights, since we have seen that individual states are "unreliable" where this issue is concerned. Not sure either. I guess we'll have to wait until it's on the news again, or stay up all night hoping it comes up on C-Span.
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No longer the Bishop of Durham
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If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? --Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 5259 | From: Deep in the American desert | Registered: Sep 2002
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Young fogey
Shipmate
# 5317
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Posted
Statement on homosexuality - [LINK DELETED}
[edited - please see me comment further down this thread]
[ 20. July 2004, 19:12: Message edited by: TonyK ]
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A conservative blog for peace
Posts: 961 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
And, Sergei? Do you have something to contribute about this? It's a rather fatuous argument.
When you have experienced losing a job because of being lesbian or gay, or being denied housing, or finding that hospitals won't let you care for your partner, will you still say that those of us who are gay or lesbian should just shut up?
It isn't about shouting one's sexual preferences to the four winds, its about living a dignified life with the same rights and responsibilities as heterosexual people. My partner and I contribute our energies and taxes as much as heterosexual couples do, probably more of our energies than most people, gay or straight. We are free to give what we give because we support each other and encourage each other. We aren't spending that energy trying to hide our relationship.
People who are hiding spend a lot of time maintaining their secret. And reducing a relationship to mere sex is insulting. Yet again, last night, one of our young friends told us that ours was the best relationship she knows, and she wished her parents had the same kind of relationship. When asked for more detail, she mentioned the fact that we never bicker, that we are always welcoming, that we show hospitality to the widest range of people, that we so obviously love and respect each other.
Strangely, she didn't once mention sex. And neither she should, since that is our business. But our relationship is the world's business because we pay taxes, we contribute to society and we interact with people. None of that takes place in the bedroom.
The position as you state it, that our relationships are all about sex, is insulting, small-minded and unintelligent, and it ignores the generous reality of many gay and lesbian lives.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Originally posted by Young fogey:
quote:
Statement on homosexuality [LINK DELETED]
Bestiality Pride Parades? You should be ashamed of yourself.
[edited to remove Young Fogey's link - please see below]
[ 20. July 2004, 19:18: Message edited by: TonyK ]
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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