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Source: (consider it) Thread: Gay Marriage, and blurred boundaries
iGeek.*

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Well. whaddya know?

I wish I could qualify for immigration.

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dorcas

Ship's florist
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quote:
Originally posted by iGeek.:
Well. whaddya know?

I wish I could qualify for immigration.

[Overused] great news!!

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"I love large women - they supply warmth in the winter and shade in the summer!" (With thanks to Gort!)

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iGeek.*

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Y España, tambien. Chevere!

[ 01. July 2005, 14:53: Message edited by: iGeek. ]

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Callan
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Netherlands - yep, hotbed of liberalism, doomed to be submerged by rain of fire from heaven at some point in the near future.

Belgium - ditto.

Canada - Satan's sperm bank. 'nuff said.

Spain? Spain! What the hell is Spain, heartland of the Counter Reformation and last bastion of fascism on earth, doing legalising gay marriage? Wherever next? Nigeria?

All this now needs is a gay Norwegian football commentator to put it in perspective:

Cardinal Ximenes, Cardinal Torquemada, Philip II, The Duke of Alva, St Ignatius Loyola, The Duke of Medina-Sidona, Francisco Suarez, General Franco, Jose Maria Escriva, Cardinal Trujillo, Can you hear me Cardinal Trujillo. Your boys took one hell of a beating tonight.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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iGeek.*

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Though reports have different spins, it seems they're being coy (circumspect?) as to the implications of their vote, but the dialog is respectful and the attitude is helpful.

And the UCC General Synod "Overwhelmingly calls for full marriage equality".

Not the biggest churches in the world but a sign of changing hearts and minds.

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HenryT

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quote:
Originally posted by iGeek.:
Well. whaddya know?

I wish I could qualify for immigration.

Over 1000 US couples have married in Toronto - visiting is enough. There's a Gay Wedding Show now in T.O., big event. The 2003 WorldCon had Weddings as the first item in the program, a mass wedding.

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:

All this now needs is a gay Norwegian football commentator to put it in perspective:

Cardinal Ximenes, Cardinal Torquemada, Philip II, The Duke of Alva, St Ignatius Loyola, The Duke of Medina-Sidona, Francisco Suarez, General Franco, Jose Maria Escriva, Cardinal Trujillo, Can you hear me Cardinal Trujillo. Your boys took one hell of a beating tonight.

[Killing me] [Killing me] Great post - hope it isn't prophetic for the Olympic bids.

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Barnabas62
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One more tangential post. Following today's Olympic news, let's have the gay Norwegian commentator speaking in French. Are you watching Jaques Chirac? Are you wa-a-atching, Jaques Chirac? (Apologies to hosts and serious posts - could't resist.)

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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iGeek.*

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quote:
Originally posted by Henry Troup:
Over 1000 US couples have married in Toronto - visiting is enough.

Enough for what? Getting a piece of paper?

It's not the getting the piece of paper and the ceremony that I'm hankerin' for. If I'm going to be married, I want the whole ball of wax -- recognition in law and all the obligations and benefits that follow.

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iGeek.*

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Pardon the double-post (it's been a few days). Stephanie Coontz wrote an op-ed piece for the NYT (the article has gone to archive when means its 'pay-2-read') which can be found in its entirety here.

The gist of it is:
quote:
My research on marriage and family life seldom leads me to agree with Dr. Dobson, much less to accuse him of understatement. But in this case, Dr. Dobson's warnings come 30 years too late. Traditional marriage, with its 5,000-year history, has already been upended. Gays and lesbians, however, didn't spearhead that revolution: heterosexuals did.
...
Giving married women an independent legal existence did not destroy heterosexual marriage. And allowing husbands and wives to construct their marriages around reciprocal duties and negotiated roles - where a wife can choose to be the main breadwinner and a husband can stay home with the children- was an immense boon to many couples. But these changes in the definition and practice of marriage opened the door for gay and lesbian couples to argue that they were now equally qualified to participate in it.

Marriage has been in a constant state of evolution since the dawn of the Stone Age. In the process it has become more flexible, but also more optional. Many people may not like the direction these changes have taken in recent years. But it is simply magical thinking to believe that by banning gay and lesbian marriage, we will turn back the clock.

Stephanie Coontz, the director of public education for the Council on Contemporary Families, is the author of "Marriage, a History: From Obedience to Intimacy, or How Love Conquered Marriage.".

[ 15. July 2005, 15:25: Message edited by: iGeek. ]

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Callan
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Transferred from the Rick Santorum on the Daily Show thread in Purgatory.

Originally posted by Ourobouros:

quote:
Did anyone watch the Daily Show last night? He had Santorum on. It was an ok interview and I like that Stewart is able to have such civil discourse and agree to disagree. But I did want John to ask Santorum one question.

"Please give me an example of how a gay marriage or union would negatively impact the *ideal* "traditional" marriage? "

It so easy to get heated up in this debate. But I would like to see someone who is so against gay marriage answer that question with an answer and not just quoting the Bible or tradition.

Also, I see how those conservatives who attempt to have a heart are "all for equal rights" for gay unions and yet I haven't seen or heard any bill being presented to congress to enact some sort of gay civil union rights. So, it's easy for them to say they are for civil unions for gays as long as it isn't marriage when they know there is little to no chance of any such law being passed. An empty gesture at best.

Ouroborus

P.S. This is my first post so I guess I should say something about myself. I came over from The Parents Perspective because it is really dead now and I need some discourse and new people to discuss with. I'm 35, married with two boys (5/7). I'm agnostic but was raised Roman Catholic. I'm a flaming liberal and live inside the Washington D.C. beltway.

Originally posted by Tom of Tarsus:

quote:
Just a warm welcome to you. You ought to find lots of good discourse here! Hope you enjoy the ride.

Yeah, that stuff is probably just lip service. At least I hope. Either all the way or nothing at all, if you want to be consistant. I may come down on the nothing at all side, but that isn't what you're wanting to discuss, and I can't get into it now. But when I saw the #!, I just had to extend a welcome.

Blessings,

Tom

Originally posted by tclune:

quote:
Hi, O.

Let me second Tom's greeting. As to the Santorum interview, I found the show a complete yawn. When Stewart is "on," he is a joy to watch in interviews. But Santorum is such a dim bulb that there was no reasonable possibility of something interesting happening in the interview. And Stewart came across as being as dull as his guest.

I'm a Daily Show addict, but I confess that I am getting tired of the interview portion of the show. A steady stream of guests hawking uninteresting movies or books is the sort of thing that the show pokes fun at when it's on-target.



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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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iGeek.*

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quote:
Originally posted by Ourobouros:
Also, I see how those conservatives who attempt to have a heart are "all for equal rights" for gay unions and yet I haven't seen or heard any bill being presented to congress to enact some sort of gay civil union rights.

In Oregon, where the anti-same-sex marriage constitutional amendment barely passed last year and civil unions were offered as a reasonable alternative, the lower house just gutted the bill with some legislative chicanery.

I don't think its about protecting a traditional, conventional, biblical definition of marriage -- I think its about keeping the fags in their place. You can't throw 'em in jail for sodomy any more so, by god, do whatever you can to keep 'em in the closet.

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GregofCali
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Ah, marriage. A wonderful, wonderful institution promised to people all over the world. There are stipulations depending on where you hail from, but it's everywhere. It's a partnership of two individuals who love each other, support each other, and commit to each other and no one else. A monogomous, Godly, love filled relationship blessed by God.

One day I would like to get married to the man I love, when I meet him.

Greetings shipmates, apprentice Greg here, gay as a box of birds. [Biased] And guess what? I've never had sex! [Eek!] Contrary to popular belief pertaining to homosexuals. [Big Grin]

Jesus speaks on divorce on many occasions. Homosexuality? Never!! haha, isn't that excellent? There's an excellent book entitled the Children are Free, also check out this delightful site an online ministry created by Justin Cannon another gay Christian, www.truthsetsfree.net

In the bible there are passages known as "clobber passages" the condemning ones of homosexuality. There aren't many, and they can be interpreted differently as well. The affirming ones are the story of David and Jonathon. Friends, yes, I have friends, and you don't give everything out of the blue to a friend and have those feelings. There are quite a few of these if you'll kindly research them, then get back to me.

just my thoughts,

Greg

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Gregory

"But I am a Duck . . ."

Duckwars 1999-1998

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iGeek.*

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Greetings & welcome, Greg. As far as the comments you make in the second half of your post, I think you're looking for this thread.

Cheers,

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
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quote:
Originally posted by GregofCali:
<snip>
One day I would like to get married to the man I love, when I meet him.

Greetings shipmates, apprentice Greg here, gay as a box of birds.
<snip>

Greg, thanks for your thoughts and for your honesty. I hope this is a ship where we will welcome you warmly regardless of your sexuality or even sexual experience. Nice simile, too! [Big Grin]

This is a dead horse - and my first visit to it in fact - but for me I will always hope there will be a way forward in which "we the church" find a way forward in which to say "you and your capacity to love are welcome here." May you in the smiles of God find a man to love. Which comments probably belong in the newbies thread in All Saints, but I wanted to make them here as a response to your honesty and trust.

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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Seeker963
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If we were allowed to talk about this in Purgatory, this would almost be a new thread. I'd like the perception of Christians in the US who are involved with those working for full inclusion of gay people in the life of the Christian church. I'm specifically interested in those who are working for the inclusion of gay people in the United Methodist Church.

I'm a member of the British Methodist church and, although originally born in the US, I have never been a member of the UMC nor am I familiar with it other than via denominational discussion groups on the internet.

How would people characterise the agenda of the "pro gay" (if I can just use that moniker) lobby in the United Methodist Church? What is the ethic and theology behind the movement? I'm assuming that "justice" is a big theme, but does the movement want gay people to be able to enter into life-time monogomous relationships? Or does it see this form of relationships as playing into a heterosexist agenda?

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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

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RainbowKate
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Seeker963,

I can't answer your question specifically as I'm an Episcopalian (happy to chatter about that if you're interested- quite similiar really), but my partner was born and raised UMC. I'm going to email her your question and I'll PM you the answer in a couple days.

She has however become rather fed up with the lack of progress in the UMC on this paticular issue and has recently joined the United Church of Christ. As we're in a long distance relationship we split our time between the two denominations.

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Seeker963
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Thanks, Rainbow Kate. I'm asking because a long-time correspondent on another internet group believes that "pro-gay" Christians refuse to talk about a sexual ethic and that they see long-term relationships as heterosexist. He insists that gay Christians want the church to say that promiscuity is OK. I've never come across that on this side of the pond. The gay Christians I know are pretty much like the straight Christians I know, except that the former generally seem to operate on a "don't ask, don't tell" basis.

Despite what it sounds like, this internet correspondent is generally someone I have come to view as reliable. However, his experience just seems so wildly different from what I know, that I find it hard to believe.

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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

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Paige
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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker963:
I'm asking because a long-time correspondent on another internet group believes that "pro-gay" Christians refuse to talk about a sexual ethic and that they see long-term relationships as heterosexist. He insists that gay Christians want the church to say that promiscuity is OK.

What a load of tripe!!! Please ask him to cite any evidence---other than his overheated imagination---for that nonsense.

You can tell him you "know" at least one "pro-gay Christian" who thinks he's full of ****. I am acquainted with many other people---gay and straight---who believe in full inclusion of gays and lesbians in the life of the church. To a person, they would tell you that committed monogamy is the standard Christians should strive for in ANY sexual relationship between consenting adults.

[ 14. August 2005, 19:13: Message edited by: Paige ]

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Papio

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quote:
Originally posted by Seeker963:
Thanks, Rainbow Kate. I'm asking because a long-time correspondent on another internet group believes that "pro-gay" Christians refuse to talk about a sexual ethic and that they see long-term relationships as heterosexist. He insists that gay Christians want the church to say that promiscuity is OK.

Your friend is mistaken.

If some people do hold the views he mentions, and I don't know anyone who does, then it can only ne a very small minority indeed of "pro-gay" Christians.

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Seeker963
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quote:
Originally posted by Paige:
You can tell him you "know" at least one "pro-gay Christian" who thinks he's full of ****. I am acquainted with many other people---gay and straight---who believe in full inclusion of gays and lesbians in the life of the church. To a person, they would tell you that committed monogamy is the standard Christians should strive for in ANY sexual relationship between consenting adults.

This has been my personal experience in the UK as well.

I don't know how far one gets on discussion groups with comparing experiences, though. I've not lived in the US for 18 years, so I wanted to see what other folk would say.

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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

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Spiffy
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Like Kate's partner, one of the reasons I left the UMC because I got flat out fed up with everyone saying, "Oh, yah, we'll recognize you as a full fledged human being, uh, eventually."

In the US UMC, one of the main focuses of the movement was getting same-sex unions, i.e. blessings of our long term monogamous relationships just like the heterosexuals. So, basically, your friend is full of it.

Timeline of the UMC and Homosexuality -- I have one thing to add, I was at the Jan. 16, 1999 Holy Union, and there were 97 UMC pastors who said the prayer over the two lovely grandmothers who had lived together for 20+ years. Of those, 67 were in the Cal-Neva conference, and for some reason two were somehow not liable to be brought up on charges in ecclesiastical court, even before the ruling. Those 65 pastors were something like 45% of the UMC clergy in the conference.

That's also where I stood across the street from my friend Fred Phelps and realised that the only wah his message was going to be drowned out is if I stood up and said, "You're wrong", and I came out to my mother the very next day.

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Seeker963
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Spiffy - thanks for the link and for sharing your story. I've been lurking on the Unofficial Confessing Movement discussion board for about a year and I'm totally horrified. At the attitude toward gay people as well as at the theology which seems totally un-Methodist.

The picture of the two grandmothers reminds me of meeting two elderly people here in the UK - a man and a woman. They had both attended the same village (Anglican) church for over 30 years. Neither realised that the other was gay until the woman hosted a meeting of "pro-gay" group at her house.

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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

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RainbowKate
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Yikes, Seeker. Well, I can tell you that the gay and lesbian Christians I know certainly are not trying to say that promiscuity is okay. That is certainly not the "agenda" of the gay/lesbian Episcopal groups. Just the opposite actually. We want stable relationships just like straight people- which is one of the arguments for marriage.

You in fact encourage fidelity by encouraging people to marry and maintain convenental relationships. We want nothing more than to pledge before God and our communities that we want to honor and remain faithful to one another for the remainder of our lives- and in addition- which is part of the Episcopal wedding liturgy- to recieve the support and blessing of the community.

I do not know of any gay Christians who think promiscuity should be encouraged or that marriage is a heterosexist agenda. The Methodists, Episcopalins and UCC members my parter and I know are people in long term relationships dedicated to one another, thier churches, and families. They want nothing more than to be recognized and treated as equals. I have never heard of this "pro-gay, pro promiscuity" piece of the Methodist church, but I will see what my partner has to say on the issue.

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RainbowKate
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quote:
That's also where I stood across the street from my friend Fred Phelps and realised that the only wah his message was going to be drowned out is if I stood up and said, "You're wrong", and I came out to my mother the very next day.

[Yipee] Good for you, Spiffy!

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Coffee is the answer

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Seeker963
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quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
You in fact encourage fidelity by encouraging people to marry and maintain convenental relationships. We want nothing more than to pledge before God and our communities that we want to honor and remain faithful to one another for the remainder of our lives- and in addition- which is part of the Episcopal wedding liturgy- to recieve the support and blessing of the community.

I totally agree with you. I'd be interested in hearing what your partner has to say although I suspect it will be very much like all the other answers here so far!

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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

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RainbowKate
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Seeker,
I did sense that you were asking an honest question for clarity rather than winding up the gay members of the ship.

It will be a couple days before my partner gets a chance to answer- she is traveling at the moment. I don't imagine it will be any different either. If there were such a group in the UMC I rather imagine she would have ranted about them considerably. Furthermore, she would no more want to be considered akin to them than to Fred Phelps. She left the UMC for the same reason Spiffy cited.

On a tangent though- there are gay people who don't think marriage is important and have no desire to marry. There are straight people who think the same thing of course. Promiscuity is hardly just a "gay thing". I have heard some rather radical feminists argue that marriage is patriarchal and dangerous for women. What it comes down to for me is this- if you want to marry you should be allowed to. If you don't, well don't then. We're hardly advocating dragging the gay community (or the straight couples living together) wholesale to the altar.

I have never heard someone who was both gay and Christian argue any of the above though.

If people really want to restore the "sanctity of marriage" allowing gays to marry would be the best thing for it. Saying that no matter who you are the social context of an intimate relationship should be marriage- for everyone- would do a lot more than insitisting it's just for a man and a woman.

There is a raw and curious irony in the fact that while marriage in general seems to be rather irrelevant for much of the straight community it is being sought out with a fervor by the gay community.

Also, since I'm on the soapbox may as well continue. My partner and I got engaged last March. While we want to be legally married it is being married in church, with our family and friends supporting us, the blessing of God upon us, that is most important and precious to us.
We have several books on same-sex liturgies, but haven't bought any books of bridal gowns yet.

I'll quit ranting now...just an issue I'm a bit passionate about. [Biased]

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Coffee is the answer

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Seeker963
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Kate: Thanks for your help and I'll be interested to see what your partner says.

I do understand that some people are against either marriage or monogomous relationships on "political" grounds and that some people are for promiscuity on the grounds of liberty or whatever. I once came across a website of "Christian polyamorists" who advocated plural partners of all sorts of variations.

I have also heard gay Christians say that they don't want their monogomous life-time committments called "marriage". But I have never heard a gay Christian say that the church should bless promiscuity.

By the way, I've gone back to the other person and queried him again. His issue is that the LBGT representatives refuse to have a conversation in Conference about agreeing to an established ethic on sexuality. So a bit different to what I thought he'd originally said.

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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

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And the reason for that, Seeker, would be that a "sexual ethic" will never be agreed on in a church setting unless straight sex and lesbian sex and gay sex are all taken to be morally neutral and equal.

I have 20 unfortunate years of experience of the issue, first as an Anglican, more recently as a Presbyterian. Both my partner and I have been on various national committees discussing the "issue". At no stage, ever, did any anti-gay person ever agree that sexual ethics were neutral as to the gender of the participants. The sexual ethic of any church group I have been a member of (all definitely pro-gay!) has been respect, honour, and fidelity - marriage, in other words.

There are those who believe that lesbians and gay men are ontologically different from real human beings - that no good, no fruit of the Spirit could ever be demonstrated by one of us. All because of our perfectly, to be honest, boring and normal sex lives. Nothing else about us matters to these people.

In the end I got sick of arguing about whether I should be allowed to minister within the church and left. I have few regrets about leaving, since I have discovered a wonderful world of volunteer services where I can work my butt off - and if I do it for God, well that's between me and God (and my prison student, with whom I am currently working through the stories of Jesus' early ministry). There are very few self-confessed Christian people working in my volunteer organisations, but they're all Christians as far as I'm concerned - they demonstrate it, rather than talking about it.

Oh, and just to be on proper topic, Rosie and I become civilised in just over three weeks - I picked up the license yesterday. Venue booked, invites out, witnesses arranged, music organised - catering still to be finalised, ditto Rosie's frock, I finished my jacket today. Two dear friends rang, all excited, to ask if they could make the cake - "cake," I said, having not even thought about a cake. They wanted to know what we were wearing, so they could decorate the cake appropriately - I'm wearing green, Rosie's wearing purple, so I'm imagining violets...

After 13 years it feels very odd to finally be able to legally commit. But quite wonderful.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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Paige
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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Oh, and just to be on proper topic, Rosie and I become civilised in just over three weeks - I picked up the license yesterday. Venue booked, invites out, witnesses arranged, music organised - catering still to be finalised, ditto Rosie's frock, I finished my jacket today.

Arabella---this brought an enormous smile to my face this morning. Bless you both!

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Sister Jackhammer of Quiet Reflection

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iGeek.*

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Coming to this little spurt of the thread late but will add my two bits.

I'm a member of two UMC congregations in Houston, one of which is openly reconciling.

I don't think you'll find a single sexual ethic agreed upon by all gay christians. But then, you won't find that amongst straight christians either.

To represent us all as being against monogomy is rather stretching the truth, though. Just check out places like gay christian outreach and gay christian net where lots of lgbt* christians across the theological spectrum hang out and discuss their hopes, dreams and desires. A committed relationship with one person is typically high on the list, in my experience.

My special someone and I are now engaged (as of June 18th) and are planning some kind of ceremony on a special date in September in a couple of years time. We may or may not solemnise it with a bit of paper in Canada or Scotland (sorry for the temper tantrum earlier in the thread -- my despair with the situation as it is overwhelms me sometimes).

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.sig on holiday

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RainbowKate
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Congrats to Arabella and IGeek. [Axe murder]

IGeek, I understand how you feel. My partner and I got engaged on March 19th of this year, and knowing that it's going to be a couple years before we can even have a ceremony (because of the closet I work in) is very hard. Not knowing when it might ever be legal is another question. We are looking fairly seriously at the idea of immigrating as I'm both a citizen of the US and the UK. But it's sad. One shouldn't have to sacrifice thier home in order to live freely. Especially not in "the land of the free". [Mad]

Blessings upon you and your partner.

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Coffee is the answer

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

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I won't say move to New Zealand, because New Zealand is in a funny place at the moment regarding "moral values". Maybe after the general election...

igeek, you're quite right about there being no one sexual ethic among gay people. However, my experience is of lesbians and gay men in the church tending to present themselves as wanting committed, monogamous marriage-like relationships. Doesn't scare the horses quite so much, although to hear some of the ranters on the other side of the debate, we're up to some quite amazing tricks. That's another thing which makes reasoned debate impossible - many of the anti-gay people love to talk, talk, talk about sex, to the point where you wonder just how much they're getting off on it. I know I ended up thinking they talk about it more than I actually have it! And their ideas about what we do sexually owe far more to their lurid imaginations than to reality. Conversely, us queers hardly ever talked about sex, preferring to discuss the day to day reality of relationships - love, respect, arguments, living with homophobia, work, responsibility.....

Even though I am in a committed, monogamous, soon-to-be civilised relationship I have to confess I'm not one of those who wants only one narrow type of sexual relationship for everyone. I have plenty of Christian friends who are single - queer and straight - who have only occasional sexual relationships. I don't see anything particularly wrong with it, provided that respect and honouring of the other person is present. I don't think people should be condemned to endless celibacy just because Mr or Ms Right never appears.

Where I lose patience is with a sexual ethic that says its OK to rape your wife, beat her up, treat her like your servant. Where men in the church still argue that women are not fit to lead. But that's another dead horse thread altogether.

Thank you for the congratulations. I can wish for you, igeek and RainbowKate, what we have, which is the kind of relationship that makes both of us more than we could ever be alone. It seems that the more we put in the more there is available to give. And it never ceases to amaze me, because it makes it possible to share so much with other people. And, contrary to what the anti-gay lobby thinks, that's love I'm talking about, not sex.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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RainbowKate
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Seeker: Here is my partner's input on your questions.

First of all, tell him to check out Affirmation, thegroup working for lgbt inclusion in the UM church. The website is www.umaffirm.org.

I think the "agenda" of those working to include gaysin the UM church is the same as those working forinclusion in other denominations. They simply don'twant to try to limit the love of God to straightpeople. I don't think "agenda" is really the right word anyway. I think they are simply trying to follow the Gospels.

I think most people fighting for equality for gays in the United Methodist church feel that it is a justice issue. Biblically, they are using the Gospels, where Jesus says absolutely nothing about homosexuality. I imagine the website will have more in depth discussion, though.

I don't know of any discussion of monogomy vs.
non-monogomy with regards to gay people. Right now, Ibelieve that pastors are allowed to be gay if and only if they are celibate. Monogomy seems to be an expectation for straight people, and I don't see why that would be any different for gays if we were to gain full acceptance. I certainly don't speak for the entire church, and I can't say that I have ever been involved in Affirmation, though.

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RainbowKate
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Thanks Arabella [Smile] .

What you said about the discussion being about love and not sex is so true. We end up talking at cross purposes. They want to say "sex is dirty and should be saved for marriage" while we're saying "I love this woman and the life we share. Sexual intimacy is a beautiful expression of this love. Oh, and by the way you won't let us get married so we can hardly be expected to save ourselves for marriage."

At Gene Robinson's consecration there were a group of men who got up to protest by explaining in vivid detail what they believed gay men did in bed. Remarkable that people so offended by homosexuality do so very much reasearch on it.

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Coffee is the answer

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
...At Gene Robinson's consecration there were a group of men who got up to protest by explaining in vivid detail what they believed gay men did in bed. Remarkable that people so offended by homosexuality do so very much reasearch on it.

Also, worth pointing out that there is no act possible to a same-gender couple that is impossible to a different-gender couple. Since the churches have in general (not the RC church) dropped the notion of policing the acts of married heterosexuals ... well, that's the whole sexual ethic thing, point already made.

[ETF typo]

[ 16. August 2005, 23:25: Message edited by: Henry Troup ]

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
a committed, monogamous, soon-to-be civilised relationship

Please excuse the tangent, but I love your use of this expression! Makes me convinced you'll have finger bowls and ice cream forks, and use them appropriately. [Biased] Congratulations to you and Rosie, and best wishes.

quote:

I have to confess I'm not one of those who wants only one narrow type of sexual relationship for everyone. I have plenty of Christian friends who are single - queer and straight - who have only occasional sexual relationships. I don't see anything particularly wrong with it, provided that respect and honouring of the other person is present. I don't think people should be condemned to endless celibacy just because Mr or Ms Right never appears.

Exactly.

What's also amazing to me is the incredible hypocrisy of some people about their sexual ethics. They don't drum straight people out of the church for infidelity or divorce, but gay and lesbian couples who want to commit themselves to each other before God? Oh no! Can't have that!

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

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Civilised is much better than unionised, don't you think? And how could you think that we don't use the right forks?

The woman who is the celebrant for our civil union is a Presbyterian minister, Rosie's oldest friend. She's currently agonising over how to declare us legally united in civil union. Such a clumsy phrase. Unfortunately she isn't allowed to say "civilised" because it isn't a legal phrase. I can just see her slipping and pronouncing us married.

--------------------
Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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I have recently come to the conclusion that we ought actively and persistently to call everyone in the debate to a certain standard of consistency: If the image of hetero sex is the highest, most restricted one -- one each, monogamous, life-long, marriage -- and all the derogations from it are ignored in the argument -- divorce, "serial monogamy", pre-marital sex, living common law, etc -- then the image of same-sex sex ought also to be the highest, most restricted one -- monogamous, life-long, marriage -- and the derogations from that also ignored. It so bugs me that people will conrst an ideal of hetero marriage with the worst excesses of gya promicuity -- it would make as much sense to contrast married same sex couples with satnadred straight promiscuity.

John

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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
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and that garbled word in my last sentence should be "standard".
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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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Arabella, I have never doubted that you use the right forks--it's just that now it will be legally recognized that you use the right forks. [Smile]
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John Donne

Renaissance Man
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About Seeker's question. I have come across the view, though it is not advocated for as 'promiscuity'. And actually, it is not something I've talked to gay people about... all my gay friends of my age are off doing the nesting thing. [Smile] (I'm serious)

I have however discussed it with a straight married Anglican priest friend, and while I was of the view that chastity and celibacy were required of all Christians prior to a lifelong relationship*, she thought it unrealistic to expect it of gay blokes in view of the difficulties of finding a partner who also is seeking a permanent relationship in the prevailing culture. I asked her what should be the guiding principle then, to behave in a Christian way if seeking a relationship with someone of the same sex? Her opinion was that one should question one's motives along the lines of 'Am I being loving?' and 'Is what I am doing life-giving?'

It is sort of amusing that the gay people are all off getting on with it and making the best of what there is to be done, while it is my straight married friend who is ruminating on policy. [Big Grin]

I don't know. I have a more optimistic view of people's ability to behave with restraint than hers. And I really don't know whether I think that is an absolute and unchangeable thing to aspire to, or if we really should be required to.

[*I'm not sure how much I care for the whole question anymore, I do know however, that I am tempted to run out and have sex with the first available man, woman and/or dolphin lest I be mistaken for someone who is pure of heart]

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Seeker963
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# 2066

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Thanks to everyone for all the input. I didn't see these posts for awhile.

quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
There are those who believe that lesbians and gay men are ontologically different from real human beings - that no good, no fruit of the Spirit could ever be demonstrated by one of us. All because of our perfectly, to be honest, boring and normal sex lives. Nothing else about us matters to these people.

I have the impression that you are correct on that. Your whole “take” on the situation is actually quite enlightening.

quote:
After 13 years it feels very odd to finally be able to legally commit. But quite wonderful.
Well, I’m really pleased for you. I imagine that it must feel wonderful. Best wishes for a great day. [Axe murder] And best wishes to igeek as well. [Axe murder]

quote:
Originally posted by RainbowKate:
Seeker: Here is my partner's input on your questions.

Thank you for asking her and thanks to her for her input.

--------------------
"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)

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Papio

Ship's baboon
# 4201

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom:

I am very pleased for you. [Yipee]

Have a really great day! [Big Grin]

--------------------
Infinite Penguins.
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
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Thanks Ruth and Papio. I realise I will have to post pictures, in best Ship tradition.

The catering still isn't finalised, but since its is an afternoon tea function I'm not so worried. Rosie did start contemplating and cutting out a pattern for her frock last night - that was more of a worry.

One of the nicest things is that Rosie's school choir invited themselves without properly committing to numbers. When Rosie sent them all emails yesterday asking who exactly was coming we've had a flood of emails saying "Me, Miss, it will be my first civil Union, isn't it exciting, of course I want to be there at your special day, what are we singing, can we take photos...." and various other teenage girl stream of consciousness type of things. They're also going to act as ushers and food servers, which removes that decision. I should add that this choir includes several quite conservative Christian girls and two Muslim girls, which gives me hope. The most conservative Christian won't come, and we never expected her to, but the others are.

And our parents went into floods of emotion because we've asked them to be the witnesses and read. So Rosie's dad and my mum will sign the register, and Rosie's mum will read.

--------------------
Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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sir galahad
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Dear Arabella- what a beautiful story. I wish you both all the joy in the world. Reading this thread has made my day [Yipee]

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Oh God make me good....but not yet

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HenryT

Canadian Anglican
# 3722

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For the record, a Canadian judge has just redefined adultery to include same-sex activity. Seems like good common sense to me.

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"Perhaps an invincible attachment to the dearest rights of man may, in these refined, enlightened days, be deemed old-fashioned" P. Henry, 1788

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John Donne

Renaissance Man
# 220

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Gosh. So they still have the gamut of grounds for divorce over there? Mental cruelty, adultery etc.

There's only 1 reason here afaik, something like 'irreconcilable breakdown of relationship'. Less messy (and less adversarial).

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Mark 217, your post is appreciated but it misses two important distinctions.

1. We are no longer under the Law. So no, the Bible doesn't teach we should stone those caught in the act.

2. (And this is a common problem on this board, I've noticed.) We should distinguish between moral laws of the Torah and ceremonial and dietary laws.

Without going into all the theology, the moral aspects of the Law still apply. It is still wrong to kill, steal, lie, etc. Fortunately for rebellious sons, the penalties no longer apply.

Although the ceremonial and dietary laws still have much to teach us (Albeit, the "pots and pans" section is a bit turgid [Biased] ), we are no longer under those as shown in the NT.

Man, I shouldn't think about such things so early in the morning.

Wrong. The Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) binds Christians to some aspects of the dietary laws. So only those who keep kosher can pontificate about LGBT issues.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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quote:
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
Greta, the gymnastics in your writing impresses even this writer. [Biased]

Yes, there are many areas where the Bible is not so clear. And you mention many of them. However, on the issue of homosexual conduct (as opposed to orientation), most Bible-believing Christians find the Bible quite clear.

Those that dispute that clarity engage mainly in one of two tactics: 1. interpretational gymnastics intending to make the Levitical or Pauline passages either extremely cultural or extremely narrow in meaning (e.g. saying Paul was only referring to temple prostitutes) or 2. simply refusing to except the Bible's authority in this area, which is becoming more open and common in the American mainline denominations.

As for a theocracy, I in no way advocate that. Government has to make decisions concerning morality. The question is whose morality?

In case someone finds me backward in this area, I do not think gay orientation is a sin. I think gay sexual conduct is a sin. I would say the same concerning hetero orientation and conduct except that it is blessed in marriage.

Actually there are gay fundamentalist Bible believing churches that disagree with this as well.

One such church was in my neighbourhood: http://www.whiterockchurch.org/

When people talk about interpretative gymnastics I am always prompted to ask: What Biblical interpretative gymnastics bring someone to the conclusion that the enslavement of one human being by another is wrong?

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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