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Source: (consider it) Thread: What homos do in bed
Hooker's Trick

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# 89

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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
As I've told you privately, HT, it's because nobody really knows nor never will know what God is doing to the biscuits. Everybody suspects what nasssssty homosexuals are doing to each other, and so it's easier to schizz over that.

Thank you, Laura, this explanation makes the most sense of any I've heard.

LQ:

quote:
swapping photos of "emo" boys making out with one another.
I alwys learn something from your contributions. My dictionary was no help with 'emo' but Wikipedia explained it refers to a sort of punk music with origins local to me, and some further Googling did indeed produce sites which promised 'emo boys kissing'.
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Anglican_Brat
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From a Nietzschean perspective, one might say that homosexuality lies within a Dionysian framework which upsets and destabilizes the Apolloian context of order and stability.

The order and stability is established by declaring that only heterosexual procreative sex is the only legitimate form of intercourse, and other forms of sexuality are suppressed.

Homosexuality IMHO will never be completely seen as "normalized" because our society is based upon heterosexual privilege. The vast majority of romantic movies follow a standard heterosexual script. Valentine's Day is primarily a straight holiday. Heterosexuality is everywhere the public and legitimized face of sexuality.

Because of this, queers will always find themselves on the outside and objectified by heterosexual discourse. The issue of "What homos do in bed?" speak to the privatized nature of queer existence. Queers, like many minorities, are hidden and seen as subversive to the prevailing order.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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El Greco
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
of those who've actually sat down and thought about the difference between temptation and sin

From that framework seem to be missing the "passions". And it is the passions that are mentioned all the time in church's tradition on Christian life.

And since the anti-Christian German philosopher has been brought into the discussion, I will bring the ancient and modern understanding of the Church on passions. Is homosexuality another passion or not? Because that's how the desire for another person of the same sex has been experienced by the church in the past two thousand years.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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Bullfrog.

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quote:
Originally Posted by bc_anglican:
Homosexuality IMHO will never be completely seen as "normalized" because our society is based upon heterosexual privilege. The vast majority of romantic movies follow a standard heterosexual script. Valentine's Day is primarily a straight holiday. Heterosexuality is everywhere the public and legitimized face of sexuality.

It's also true that heterosexuals make the overwhelming majority (c. 90%, by most estiamtes) of the population. Of course anything that markets to homosexuals is going to exist in a cultural "niche."

A cold, calculating side of me wants to observe that a society that was majority homosexual wouldn't last more than a few generations unless there was a major external incentive to breed.

I'm as opposed to oppressing and sidelining people as any good liberal, but practically speaking, most of the human species is hetero and that fact in and of itself is going to lead to a lot of hetero-centric culture. Homosexuality as distinct from heterosexuality, will always be a niche market.

I don't know if the plethora of hetero-centric cultural artifacts is necessarily a product of an oppressive hetero-centric, patriarchal, WASP society, though I am not denying that such a society exists.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Knopwood
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# 11596

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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
My dictionary was no help with 'emo' but Wikipedia explained it refers to a sort of punk music with origins local to me

Yes, sorry: suffice it to say the genre has a whole accompanying manner of dress, distinctive hairstyle, and other stereotypical baggage.
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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
quote:
Originally Posted by bc_anglican:
Homosexuality IMHO will never be completely seen as "normalized" because our society is based upon heterosexual privilege. The vast majority of romantic movies follow a standard heterosexual script. Valentine's Day is primarily a straight holiday. Heterosexuality is everywhere the public and legitimized face of sexuality.

It's also true that heterosexuals make the overwhelming majority (c. 90%, by most estiamtes) of the population. Of course anything that markets to homosexuals is going to exist in a cultural "niche."

A cold, calculating side of me wants to observe that a society that was majority homosexual wouldn't last more than a few generations unless there was a major external incentive to breed.

I'm as opposed to oppressing and sidelining people as any good liberal, but practically speaking, most of the human species is hetero and that fact in and of itself is going to lead to a lot of hetero-centric culture. Homosexuality as distinct from heterosexuality, will always be a niche market.

I don't know if the plethora of hetero-centric cultural artifacts is necessarily a product of an oppressive hetero-centric, patriarchal, WASP society, though I am not denying that such a society exists.

I agree that our cultural artifacts is driven in large part by the fact that the majority of people are heterosexual. But I think that we have fallen in the easy trap of equating majority=normative/normal.

But then again I question the easy distinction between heterosexual and homosexual.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by mirrizin:
quote:
Originally Posted by bc_anglican:
Homosexuality IMHO will never be completely seen as "normalized" because our society is based upon heterosexual privilege. The vast majority of romantic movies follow a standard heterosexual script. Valentine's Day is primarily a straight holiday. Heterosexuality is everywhere the public and legitimized face of sexuality.

It's also true that heterosexuals make the overwhelming majority (c. 90%, by most estiamtes) of the population. Of course anything that markets to homosexuals is going to exist in a cultural "niche."

A cold, calculating side of me wants to observe that a society that was majority homosexual wouldn't last more than a few generations unless there was a major external incentive to breed.

I'm as opposed to oppressing and sidelining people as any good liberal, but practically speaking, most of the human species is hetero and that fact in and of itself is going to lead to a lot of hetero-centric culture. Homosexuality as distinct from heterosexuality, will always be a niche market.


This rather illustrates to me at least the limits of this sort of liberal response to gay people. You are there , we tolerate and can even celebrate you at times but don't forget we are the majority.
The acceptance with hooks mentality. I much prefer the people who out and out say what they think about the subject, pro or con.

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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Hooker's Trick

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quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
Yes, sorry: suffice it to say the genre has a whole accompanying manner of dress, distinctive hairstyle, and other stereotypical baggage.

On the contrary, I like learning new things. Can you shed any light on this passage I discovered on an 'emo corner'

quote:
Usually there is no attraction behind the act of emo guys kissing. They just do it because they can

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Hooker's Trick

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quote:
Originally posted by bc_anglican:
The vast majority of romantic movies follow a standard heterosexual script.



Can you elaborate on this? What is the alternate 'homosexual script'? Isn't 'boy meets girl, boy loves girl &tc &tc' the same if it's 'boy meets boy &tc'?

I'm trying to think of romantic films with homosexual protagonists. I'm not sure that My Beautiful Laundrette, for instance, wouldn't work just as well if one of the blokes had been a girl.

I thought one of the moving and powerful parts of Brokeback Mountain is that way it portrayed love and longing that would be recognisable to anyone. In telling a tragic romance of lovers separated by circumstance. The circumstance happened social disapprobation of their homosexuality, but couldn't work as well if the obstacle had been class (a la Henry James) or race or clan (a la Romeo & Juliet)?


quote:
Valentine's Day is primarily a straight holiday.
No, it's a commercial holiday designed to part fools from their money.

[ubb]

[ 16. February 2008, 15:54: Message edited by: Hooker's Trick ]

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Knopwood
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I have to say there's a way in which a gay romance reaches me that a straight one, however archetypal, cannot. Just last night, as I sleeplessly stayed up finishing the latest tightly formatted Bishop Blackie mystery by Fr Greeley, I wondered why Archbishop Ryan couldn't for once conduct his obligatory matchmaking on two men.

The Rainbow Trilogy (Rainbow Boys, Rainbow High, Rainbow Road) are an essential part of the canon for the gay teen set, not because of any profound literary value (they tend to be rather soapy and at times didactic - "Gee Mr McClure, I didn't know that therapy couldn't change one's sexual orientation") but because they simply filled a niche that was essentially wide-open: the market of frustrated, horny gay boys.

Likewise, I cried a little during Latter Days, which doesn't happen very often (save, invariably, for A Little Princess when I was younger).

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:

Can you elaborate on this? What is the alternate 'homosexual script'? Isn't 'boy meets girl, boy loves girl &tc &tc' the same if it's 'boy meets boy &tc'?

There are different dynamics between heterosexual and homosexual relationships. With heterosexual scripts, there is an immediate difference between the two characters, one is male, and one is female. And so all the standard gendered stereotypes come in to play.

Homosexual relationships complicate things. We no longer and rightly so ask gay men "Who is the woman in your relationship?"

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Hooker's Trick

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quote:
Originally posted by bc_anglican:
[QUOTE] There are different dynamics between heterosexual and homosexual relationships. With heterosexual scripts, there is an immediate difference between the two characters, one is male, and one is female. And so all the standard gendered stereotypes come in to play.

Just so. But I would submit that reliance on these cliches makes for unappealing and uninteresting story-telling. And it certainly needn't be so. Consider Ian McEwan's Atonement, which relies on measures of courage and honesty over gender characteristics, or to take a more classic example, Pride and Prejudice.

quote:
Homosexual relationships complicate things.
I agree, and often in a good way, which is why it's unfortunate homosexual love isn't explored more in popular cinema (the 'yuck' factor again I suppose). I think one of the reasons Brokeback (again) was so effective, both the film and the story, is because it was able to explore a romance without reference to gender stereotype, or indeed to 'who is the woman'.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Gay Organ Grinder:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
"Homos"? Bit dated.

I suspect most gay people do what most straight people do in bed - read their books for a while, turn the lights out and snore/fart until morning.

Leo, have I slept with you??????
Can't remember! So many men, so little time!

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Dennis the Menace
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gay Organ Grinder:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
"Homos"? Bit dated.

I suspect most gay people do what most straight people do in bed - read their books for a while, turn the lights out and snore/fart until morning.

Leo, have I slept with you??????
Can't remember! So many men, so little time!
[Smile] [Smile] [Smile] So true, so true!!

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"Till we cast our crowns before Him; Lost in wonder, love, and praise."

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by bc_anglican:
Homosexuality IMHO will never be completely seen as "normalized" because our society is based upon heterosexual privilege. The vast majority of romantic movies follow a standard heterosexual script. Valentine's Day is primarily a straight holiday. Heterosexuality is everywhere the public and legitimized face of sexuality.

Could that possibly be because the vast majority of human beings are heterosexual? If it were not so we would not be here.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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John Holding

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Further to Ken's point, heterosexuality is the human norm, at least in statistical and scientific terms. But properly, that is a statement without any moral or other connotations. Brown eyes are the norm, staitsically -- which does not make my blues eyes wrong. WOmen are the norm statistically, which (I certainly hope) does not make me, as a man, wrong. And the converse is true, I suppose, if you use language sloppily -- being male, blue-eyed or gay makes one abnormal. But that is equally an empty statement, morally.

And Andreas, what is being experienced now is the knowledge that there is no difference between same-sex attraction and opposite-sex attraction. So if by calling it a "passion" your church writers intended to define same-sex attraction as inferior or different to opposite sex-attraction, they were wrong -- as a matter of fact. Now what happens when theology collides with fact is precisely what the debate is about.

Personally, I'd go with observable fact, and decide that the Fathers did not know everything, were not themeselvse infallible, and made a mistake.

John

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Further to Ken's point, heterosexuality is the human norm, at least in statistical and scientific terms. But properly, that is a statement without any moral or other connotations. Brown eyes are the norm, staitsically -- which does not make my blues eyes wrong. WOmen are the norm statistically, which (I certainly hope) does not make me, as a man, wrong. And the converse is true, I suppose, if you use language sloppily -- being male, blue-eyed or gay makes one abnormal. But that is equally an empty statement, morally.

And Andreas, what is being experienced now is the knowledge that there is no difference between same-sex attraction and opposite-sex attraction. So if by calling it a "passion" your church writers intended to define same-sex attraction as inferior or different to opposite sex-attraction, they were wrong -- as a matter of fact. Now what happens when theology collides with fact is precisely what the debate is about.

Personally, I'd go with observable fact, and decide that the Fathers did not know everything, were not themeselvse infallible, and made a mistake.

John

I completely agree with your post. I wonder why we make a deal of some human differences over others. No one today makes a big deal about left-handed persons, even if they are the minority. No one makes a huge deal about hair or eye color.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by bc_anglican:
No one today makes a big deal about left-handed persons, even if they are the minority.

Oh, no? [Biased]
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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
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quote:
Originally Posted by bc_anglican:
I agree that our cultural artifacts is driven in large part by the fact that the majority of people are heterosexual. But I think that we have fallen in the easy trap of equating majority=normative/normal.

But then again I question the easy distinction between heterosexual and homosexual.

Normal, to me, has always been a really weird and culturally relative term. Mathematically, I think the word "normal" does refer to the trend of the majority of a sample, but of course that's playing mean games with semantics [Big Grin] . Underneath it all, I think we really need to have a conversation about what "normal" really is.

As to normative, I think that's a product of our government, which actually isn't supposed to merely serve the majority.

And I too question the "easy distinction" between homosexuality and heterosexuality in many cases (particularly female), though my subjective experience is that most males tend to be strongly one or the other (with a few exceptions, I'll grant). Definitely, a lot of straight people I know are vividly turned off by the idea of homosexual sex, though they may not necessarily project that attitude onto homosexuals per se.

At some point in high school, I came to the pretentious conclusion that "normal" was highly overrated. I don't think I've ever changed my mind on that one.
quote:
Originally Posted by SeraphimSarov:
This rather illustrates to me at least the limits of this sort of liberal response to gay people. You are there , we tolerate and can even celebrate you at times but don't forget we are the majority.
The acceptance with hooks mentality. I much prefer the people who out and out say what they think about the subject, pro or con.

I sincerely hope you didn't read any sort of poltiical threat in that statement, as I was merely stating a fact. Most people tend to be straight. I had no desire to remind you of that fact, just state the fact and let folks make of it what they would. And it is true that most culture will reflect most people. If it's less threatening to use an analogy, if 10% or so of hte population enjoyed seeing things the color chartreuse, you wouldn't expect a majority of that culture's, erm, culture to be dyed chartreuse. It would always be a minority interest.

If you want my frank opinion, I'm a striaght guy who has never really understood the interest in being gay. At the same time, I've known and been friends with gay people and through this I understand that what for me is unnatural seems natural for them and it doesn't really bother me. Frankly, I don't like to think about any of my friends having sex, gay or straight. It's not an aspect of anyone's personal identity I choose to dwell on when there are so many other socially relevant factors.

I've always prefered love to tolerance. If you say you "tolerate" something, I think, you're always implying that it's somehow unpleasant.

I'm in strongly in favor of accepting homosexual people as every bit as sincerely Christian and human as heterosexual people, and really, I think the church has far more important things to worry about than who's sticking what tab into which slot.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Bullfrog.

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quote:
Originally posted by bc_anglican:
No one today makes a big deal about left-handed persons, even if they are the minority.

Actually, not too long ago, they did. My mom's naturally left handed and can tell stories about how, in school, they tried for years to teach her to write with her right hand.

You've got me on the hair and eye color, though. I suppose there were the Nazis and their "Aryan" fixation, but they were kind of a special case...

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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Anglican_Brat
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When I say that I question the easy distinction between homosexual and heterosexual, I mean that not everyone define themselves in their binary categories. Some of my younger generation, especially among women, define themselves as "Queer" rather than "Lesbian" or "Gay". As well, I believe there is evidence for genuine bisexuality.

So there is a bit of fluidity that exists in sexual orientation and preference.

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Bullfrog.

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quote:
Originally Posted by bc_anglican:
So there is a bit of fluidity that exists in sexual orientation and preference.

I agree with you here, and I agree that it tends to be more "fluid" in females than in males. Similar with genuine bisexuality, though similarly, I think that that is rarer in males.

Also, IME, of people that are offended by it, men tend to be more viscerally offended by homosexuality than women do, going back to the OP. Of course, trying to parse what aspects of this are socially constructed, biologically constructed, or "natural" (whatever that word is supposed to mean) is very difficult.

Part of me wants to say that it's a simple matter of anal sex being something straight men find revolting (particular from the receiving end, going back to the ancient Greeks), but of course, as posted above, such attitudes are based on misconceptions (not that that ever stops anyone... [Roll Eyes] ).

Just today I noticed that people use the term "screwed" to refer to having something rather unpleasant done to one's self. Even if it's not what people directly think about, the etymology is pretty obvious.

[Yes, I accidentally posted this as Gwai a few moments ago]

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by bc_anglican:
When I say that I question the easy distinction between homosexual and heterosexual, I mean that not everyone define themselves in their binary categories. Some of my younger generation, especially among women, define themselves as "Queer" rather than "Lesbian" or "Gay". As well, I believe there is evidence for genuine bisexuality.

So there is a bit of fluidity that exists in sexual orientation and preference.

True and I think that people over on the hetero side of the scale tend to push themselves to the far end and pretend there's nobody in the right 1/3 of the spectrum (or left -- i was going in alphabetical order) except at the very end. This then becomes "normal".

If it were indeed possible to calculate a number between 1 and 100 showing how hetero or homo a person was, and we plotted numbers in society, you would not get a bell-shaped curve with most people in the middle. I think evolutionary forces have pushed the curve to the right for fairly obvious reasons. And the people on the right half push themselves further right (at least in actions and what thoughts they "allow" themselves to think), as I said above, albeit for less obvious reasons.

So you get a majority culture that is not just heterosexual, but maybe a little hysterically heterosexual. (As Pirsig says, you're the most strident about the things you're least sure about: nobody runs through the streets screaming "THE SUN WILL RISE TOMORROW!") We are finally seeing a softening of this, which hopefully will continue and not snap shut in the future, although wars (wars that involve the whole society like WW1 and WW2, not out-of-sight-out-of-mind wars like Iraq and Vietnam) and economic downturns tend to have a deleterious effect on people's open-mindedness about minorities (in general), and behaviours that seem to the "majority" to be different or frivolous (in particular).

Also (sorry I'm going on and on about this -- I'll try to make my next post a one-liner) I think part of the reason society -- at least the entertainment industry -- is opening up about this (finally) has a lot to do with "straight guilt" (modeled on "white guilt"). Although I think creating a more open culture is a positive good irregardless* of the unworthiness of the motives that are bringing it about.

But by golly I keep seeing this thread title from the main page and coming here for some salacious gossip. [Biased]

*I know it's bad grammar. I do it to piss off other pedants.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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John Donne

Renaissance Man
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quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy B:
...(I've met about 100 lesbians over the years, and only about 1 enjoyed wearing anything vaguely resembling trowelled-on lippy, tarty fuck-me heels and porno het-wear).

No, but we all know guys that love dressing like that, don't we?
So true. I used to go to the local queer church corral and one of the chaps there who I think was a cross-dresser rather than TS, wanted to be known as Diana (after the princess) - and everyone obliged. He was much taken with hot pink satin flairs, skimpy midriffs, and platform slip-slops and his Sunday outfits usually caused the women of the congregation to 'Tch!' and roll their eyes!
[Killing me]

I think I understand where he's coming from - in that our society is (or has been) so repressive of blokes who want to express themselves in a feminine way or wish to express feminine aspects of themselves, that when they finally do get the opportunity they run amuck with the tartiest and most overt expressions of femininity they can imagine.

I contrast this behaviour with the sensible gay male approach of dressing like Doris Day avec beehive for a Eurovision Song Contest party. [Big Grin]

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Curiosity killed ...

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quote:
Jimmy B postulated:
I think I understand where he's coming from - in that our society is (or has been) so repressive of blokes who want to express themselves in a feminine way or wish to express feminine aspects of themselves, that when they finally do get the opportunity they run amuck with the tartiest and most overt expressions of femininity they can imagine.

How about missed out that stage of development? Have you seen young girls trying out makeup and clothes for the first time? It is that sort of caricature of very feminine or very tarty and totally overdone. Lots of teenage girls are still trying to work through that one, and having daily rows with their parents who are trying to tone down those expressions of personality.

To go back to the OP, can't we just put people's sex lives into the box labelled Not My Business or Not My Problem. Like most gossip, it's only my business if I am dealing with those people directly and the snippet might inform my dealings with them to be more appropriate. Knowing someone is in a gay relationship or gay could be helpful and allow me to modify my interactions accordingly*. And as I am not involved in sexual health or medicine, speculating on what they do or don't do in bed is gossip and not my problem.

* In my case, that probably means not worrying about giving the wrong impression when I flirt with them, but that's me.

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Welease Woderwick

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"Not my business" is fine by me. I deliberately do not speculate on what "breeders" do in bed and I worked in sexual health for a good few years. Even then I tried not to think of what they might be doing, beyond the necessary knowledge of plumbing, etc, but I was concerned with helping them to do it safely.

As for the Doris Day look, I am afraid it does nothing for me - but looking tarty can be great fun!

[Big Grin]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy B:
I think I understand where he's coming from - in that our society is (or has been) so repressive of blokes who want to express themselves in a feminine way or wish to express feminine aspects of themselves, that when they finally do get the opportunity they run amuck with the tartiest and most overt expressions of femininity they can imagine.

When I worked for the health department and was literally (and I do mean "in the literal sense of the word") surrounded by persons of every imaginable sexuality and dressuality, a great number of the gay people there expressed to me that they avoid the Pride Parade like the plague because it was "only" the most embarassingly flashy people who took part. (One suspects they overestimated.) In their opinion this worked against the strides being made to impress upon breeders the just-like-folks-ness of gay people. (Thus, of course, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy: if the non-flashy gays/lesbians stay away, then by golly it will only be the flashy ones left behind! (and the handful of breeders that also take part).)

A truly open and accepting society would allow for both sorts without trying to shove either into the other's mold, or into "the heterosexual" mold (as if there is only one "heterosexual lifestyle" either). I fear we have a ways to go. But for the moment we do seem to be moving in the right direction.

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy B:
I think I understand where he's coming from - in that our society is (or has been) so repressive of blokes who want to express themselves in a feminine way or wish to express feminine aspects of themselves, that when they finally do get the opportunity they run amuck with the tartiest and most overt expressions of femininity they can imagine.

When I worked for the health department and was literally (and I do mean "in the literal sense of the word") surrounded by persons of every imaginable sexuality and dressuality, a great number of the gay people there expressed to me that they avoid the Pride Parade like the plague because it was "only" the most embarassingly flashy people who took part. (One suspects they overestimated.) I
I think that's changed a bit in the last ten years. I mean, at the last Portland Pride parade I made it to, the Grand Marshall was a Bronze Star recepient, three sitting City Commissioners rode in the parade, along with two candidates for Governor and 48 churches.

Comparing that to the first Pride parade I ever went to (San Francisco, 1994), it was... well, boring. And sedate. And the kids enjoyed it a lot, especially my friend's kids who rode with him on the Law Enforcement float.

(p.s. The absolute best marchers, every pride parade, are the PFLAG contingent.)

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Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
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quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
"Not my business" is fine by me. I deliberately do not speculate on what "breeders" do in bed and I worked in sexual health for a good few years. Even then I tried not to think of what they might be doing, beyond the necessary knowledge of plumbing, etc, but I was concerned with helping them to do it safely.

As for the Doris Day look, I am afraid it does nothing for me - but looking tarty can be great fun!

[Big Grin]

Even among us 'breeders'. [Biased]

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Comparing that to the first Pride parade I ever went to (San Francisco, 1994), it was... well, boring. And sedate. And the kids enjoyed it a lot, especially my friend's kids who rode with him on the Law Enforcement float.

Wellington's parade got so boring it doesn't happen any more. Probably something to do with the public service (the major industry of this town) being staffed by queers in great numbers. They're well known as "suits".

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
(p.s. The absolute best marchers, every pride parade, are the PFLAG contingent.)

Better than Dykes on Trikes? [Eek!]

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Louise
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quote:
Originally posted by Laura:
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
Which is my real question -- how can the Communion tolerate divergent and various views on the Theology of the Lord's Supper (we don't even call it the same thing) but can't accept a diversity of views on same-sex sex? Especially when the breaking point isn't the practice of buggery but the toleration of it.

As I've told you privately, HT, it's because nobody really knows nor never will know what God is doing to the biscuits. Everybody suspects what nasssssty homosexuals are doing to each other, and so it's easier to schizz over that.
True but also everyone knows what the nassssty heterosexuals do, divorce fundmanager scuzzbucket style* and they don't schizz over tolerating that sort of thing these days, despite the fact that a common reason given for attacking harmless gay couples is that they're 'destroying marriage and the family'.

If you're going to fight to push through a conservative religious agenda and to keep control over a church in the hands of conservative men like you, what issue do you pick?

Divorce? Everyone does it - evangelicals in the US have above average rates. Most of your congregation will have divorced people in their families. Not a good idea.

Premarital sex? Again most of your congo will have been at it. The Newspapers will laugh at you.

Male headship/ no women priests? Half the population are going to be really chuffed with that. Don't expect any sympathetic newspaper coverage. Even some African and Asian countries have had women priests for a long time and wont come on board.

The Gays? Ah now, there are a lot of African and Asian countries which for cultural and historical reasons are very anti-gay. If you're criticised you can play the 'western imperialism' card. If people point out you're behaving like a racist or sexist, you can play the 'homosexual practice' card - 'love the sinner, hate the sin. Only a tiny minority of gays are going to be in your congo and most of them will be closeted, and there's still a fair amount of anti-gay prejudice even in the UK or US. It's a great wedge issue to push through a conservative agenda with all kinds of other things on the coat tails (no women priests, anti-abortion, high view of the Bible), because the people who side with you on it will tend to go along with the other items anyway, but you don't need to bring that agenda up explicitly in public. It can be a variant of 'Dog Whistle' politics.

But if you follow this strategy then the one thing you must NOT talk about is communion, because you risk breaking your conservative coalition apart. The Conservative Catholics believe in the real presence and a proper mass, the traditional low church people don't, but expect communion to be carried out by a properly ordained minister and maybe even a prayer book service, the Sydney Anglicans and very con-evos believe in lay presidency and will use Ribena and overhead projectors, if they want to.

The First Rule of Conservative Fight Club is you do NOT talk about What God Does With The Biscuits.

Always talk about The Gays, and if people push you further on that, waffle about 'the faith once delivered unto the saints' and 'raisin cakes' but don't mention The Biscuits! Also it's fun to talk about gay sex, and if you're one of the many closeted gays in the conservative ranks, why shouldn't Jeffrey John and Gene Robinson have to suffer the way you did?

I'm not saying that people don't hold anti-gay beliefs for sincere reasons, but if you ask why the leadership of people like Minns, Sugden, Schofield and Akinola and Jensen et al picked this issue, at this time, that would be my guess.

It's not so much what homos do in bed, as what bishops do in committee rooms.

L.


* I wouldn't normally link to the Daily Wail, but I can't get a link elsewhere.

[ 18. February 2008, 00:04: Message edited by: Louise ]

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
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Every time I see the thread title I think "We-e-e-e-ell, just so they don't get cracker crumbs in the sheets..."

Nice to keep it in bed. I don't want to see a bunch of PDA from anybody, no matter who they are and who they're groping/kissing/humping where I can see them.

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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
If you're criticised you can play the 'western imperialism' card.... Also it's fun to talk about gay sex

I know one Anglican who has Inuit ancestry, and who says it's particularly tragic that the Diocese of the Arctic has taken such a hard line on The Issue because it isn't an indigenous stance of theirs. That's to say, the anti-gayness is a product of imperialism.

As for talking about sex, the Rev. Dr Marney Patterson spends an entire chapter on his book "Suicide?" (about the imminent - as of twenty years ago [Roll Eyes] - fall of the ACoC) expatiating on all the nasty bugs that befall gays on account of our ardent buggering and (of all things) rimming. It's ninety per cent disgusting owing to its graphic nature, and ten per cent hilarious thanks to its blatantly nongay authorship.

[ 18. February 2008, 00:43: Message edited by: Liturgy Queen ]

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
# 3434

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quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
As for talking about sex, the Rev. Dr Marney Patterson spends an entire chapter on his book "Suicide?" (about the imminent - as of twenty years ago [Roll Eyes] - fall of the ACoC) expatiating on all the nasty bugs that befall gays on account of our ardent buggering and (of all things) rimming. It's ninety per cent disgusting owing to its graphic nature, and ten per cent hilarious thanks to its blatantly nongay authorship.

Like I say, they get off on it. Possibly far more than us queers do.

And Louise, both thumbs up from Down Under.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Nice to keep it in bed.

I'm willing to go even further and say it's okay for them to do stuff in the kitchen, in the bathroom, or even on the couch. Hell, I'll even give them the garage as long as the door is down.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Nice to keep it in bed.

I'm willing to go even further and say it's okay for them to do stuff in the kitchen, in the bathroom, or even on the couch. Hell, I'll even give them the garage as long as the door is down.
how about on a motorcycle in the garage?? [Smile]

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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mousethief

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That sounds downright dangerous. I do hope you have a good kick-stand?

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Laura
General nuisance
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quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
quote:
Originally posted by bc_anglican:
No one today makes a big deal about left-handed persons, even if they are the minority.

Oh, no? [Biased]
[Killing me]

quote:
finally, all sinistrals, to whom bishops and pastors of souls offer the solace of holy religion, should be assured that despite their best efforts they will probably go to hell anyway for thinking left-handed thoughts. Let them thus be encouraged to know that, after a life in which
they have basically considered themselves worthless, they will at last find themselves entirely worthy of something; to wit, eternal damnation in the slime-infested miseries of the abyss, where horribly disfigured imps and little red demons with pitchforks and tridents will perform unremitting acupuncture upon their most sensitive bodily parts as they roast in the searing embers of hell.



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Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence. - Erich Fromm

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Anglican_Brat
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Last night I was coughing and sneezing due to my Valentine's Day flu.

That is what I was doing in bed. How is that morally wrong in the eyes of conservative Christianity?

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SeraphimSarov
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quote:
Originally posted by bc_anglican:
Last night I was coughing and sneezing due to my Valentine's Day flu.

That is what I was doing in bed. How is that morally wrong in the eyes of conservative Christianity?

well.. [Smile] you are still according to them, a homo doing things in bed [Smile]

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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Yes, and a subtext of many of evos (if not an overt tenet, indeed) is that you are Deliberately choosing to be a homo.

The film "Maurice", after the novel by E M Forster, provides a rather good commentary about those sort of attitudes (apparently Edwardian England was much like an Evo Dystopia).

[ 18. February 2008, 20:44: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
(p.s. The absolute best marchers, every pride parade, are the PFLAG contingent.)

Better than Dykes on Trikes? [Eek!]
Ah, yes, they're fun. But when a grandmother-woman comes up and says, "Do you want a sticker?" and you say "Yes, please! Thank you!" and then she says, "How about a hug?" and you say, "Yes, please! Thank you!" and she gives you a big ol' hug and says, "You are a lovely young person".... When that's not what you've been hearing for so long from so many people (especially little grandmother-women), it's the kind of thing that makes an impression.

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Knopwood
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When I was 14, I suggested that my parents join PFLAG and they refused on the grounds that they didn't want anyone to think they had a problem with it and needed "support." [Tear]
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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quote:
Originally posted by Liturgy Queen:
When I was 14, I suggested that my parents join PFLAG and they refused on the grounds that they didn't want anyone to think they had a problem with it and needed "support." [Tear]

Probably too late now, but one might suggest that even so, the other people could use their support.

If I had any (out) gay relatives I would certainly wish to join, but I also fear offending people because I belong to a church that does not support homosexual marriage/marriage-like relationships. Although this is probably not the right thread for soul-searching of that sort.

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Janine

The Endless Simmer
# 3337

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quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Nice to keep it in bed.

I'm willing to go even further and say it's okay for them to do stuff in the kitchen, in the bathroom, or even on the couch. Hell, I'll even give them the garage as long as the door is down.
how about on a motorcycle in the garage?? [Smile]
Perhaps they could even go at it mounted on the thing and rumbling down the street, while I hid out in the garage where I couldn't see them. I could bring my knitting, stay a while. How long do you think they'd need?

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Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Perhaps they could even go at it mounted on the thing and rumbling down the street, while I hid out in the garage where I couldn't see them. I could bring my knitting, stay a while. How long do you think they'd need?

Depends. Have they been practicing that "tantric sex" stuff? They could run out of gas first.

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
What is it about what homos do in bed that gets so many people so exercised?

You would wonder why homosexual sleeping habits are so important to these hets. It doesn't make sense, really.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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The Bede's American Successor

Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042

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quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
(p.s. The absolute best marchers, every pride parade, are the PFLAG contingent.)

Better than Dykes on Trikes? [Eek!]
Honey, it is Dykes on Bikes®.

And the ® was for real this time. It is a registered trademark in the United States of America. Is this a great country, or what?

And not everyone who rides in a Pride Parade is a part of the Women's Motorcycle Contingent. I wouldn't pass their physical.

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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.

—Ezekiel 16.49

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Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

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Ahem...to return to the OP, I find thinking about what homos get up to in bed sexually rather icky. But, then again, I find thinking about what my fellow-heteros get up to sexually in bed pretty icky too. Especially some heteros, like my parents. Not only are they old, they are also my parents. Nuff said - in fact I think I'm going to have to leave the keyboard and go [Projectile]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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