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Source: (consider it) Thread: Ex-gay ministries
chiltern_hundred
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# 13659

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I see no reason why people who are attempting to discern, by God's grace, the difference between love and lust and to grow as mature human beings should be equated with thieves and liars.

Theft and lying are acts of deliberate choice; sexual attraction and falling in love are not.

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"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

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Túathalán
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To leo,
quote:
The Bible does not SAY anything at all. It is a collection of books, not a human being with a tongue.
A book never has been oral, I don’t see your point.
Perhaps a minor point in the context of this whole discussion, but a significant portion of the Old Testament existed solely in an oral tradition before being set down in writing, so I would dispute your assertion that a book never has been oral.
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leo
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You are right - damn!

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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brightmorningstar
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To Chiltern_hundred,
quote:
I see no reason why people who are attempting to discern, by God's grace, the difference between love and lust and to grow as mature human beings should be equated with thieves and liars.
another indication of two different religions. Jesus NT makes it quite clear we all fall short. To whom do you think He was speaking to when it says the disciples
Matthew 15:19 “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.” I think as a disciple it is to me, I ma compared with a murderer.

quote:
Theft and lying are acts of deliberate choice; sexual attraction and falling in love are not.
To gays yes but not to cleptomaniacs, and not according to God’s purposes.
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brightmorningstar
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Anyway I do wish you all a happy Christmas.
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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
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No one, especially gay Christians, believes that gay people don't sin. I sin all the time. I often don't treat my neighbour like Christ. I pass by a homeless person without helping. And I am aware and confess many other sins to God. So quoting that passage misses the point.

Secondly, murder, theft, etc., are wrong because they harm people. You don't have to open a Bible to figure that out. Whether they are innate conditions or not doesn't matter. The harm they do to others outweighs that.

At best the prohibition on homosexuality is a purity code. Being in a gay relationship does no objective (or measurable) harm to others in the way stealing or murder do. Jesus didn't think highly of purity codes. In fact, he broke them as often as he could. Saint Paul wrote in Romans 13 that the only command is to love neighbour.

And the whole appeal to nature to argue against gay relationships is silly. Gay relationships (and all kinds of other forms of bonding and sex) are found throughout nature.

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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iGeek

Number of the Feast
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
another indication of two different religions.

And how.

I will take the Christianity of the Great Commandment, of Micah 6:8, of the Beatitudes, of the completion sacrifice of Christ once and for all.

You can have the Christianity of the pick-and-choose fixation on the no-longer-for-Christians-effective purity code, of the misreading of Paul's rhetorical devices and murky cultural context to fit your own, judgemental pre-conceived notions; that refuses to deal with people and their circumstances as those made in the image of God but as some kind of "problem to be solved", somehow especially broken and without access to the boundless depth and breadth of the mercy and love of Christ -- just as your ideological forbears attempted to rationalize the purity of the races and the oppression of women on the same basis. Your reading and understanding of scripture is suspect on that basis, not mine.

And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power.

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leo
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What an excellent post.

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Auntie Doris

Screen Goddess
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quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:

And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power.

[Overused] [Overused] [Overused]

iGeek... I love you. I really do!!!

Auntie Doris x

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"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)

The life and times of a Guernsey cow

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Túathalán
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quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power.
This is a very good point which I don't recall reading previously, but wholeheartedly support.
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
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quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Doris:
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:

And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power.

[Overused] [Overused] [Overused]

iGeek... I love you. I really do!!!

Auntie Doris x

Hear hear!! [Overused] [Overused]
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
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I'll join the list of igeek's girlfriends [Razz]

Bloody gorgeous, mate!

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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urbanbumpkin
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You know what - maybe I've had a little too much tipple or something, but I came on here and was beginning to feel somewhat incredibly hurt by BMS (out of interest, why do you come to this webiste?) Then I read your post Igeek. Another one of your fanclub logging in to say thanks [Smile]
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brightmorningstar
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To ToujoursDan,
quote:
No one, especially gay Christians, believes that gay people don't sin. I sin all the time. I often don't treat my neighbour like Christ. I pass by a homeless person without helping. And I am aware and confess many other sins to God. So quoting that passage misses the point.
That’s providing you aren’t addressing other people who don’t think passing a homeless person is a sin.
This is like the rich young man in Luke’s gospel, who thought he could justify himself by keeping all the commandments so he could the one he couldn’t sacrifice for. One can easily decide which sins one wants to confess and which sins one wants to avoid…. I think that’s what the Pharisees did.

quote:
Secondly, murder, theft, etc., are wrong because they harm people. You don't have to open a Bible to figure that out. Whether they are innate conditions or not doesn't matter. The harm they do to others outweighs that.
As I have pointed out 1 Cor 6 describes all other sins are against others but sexual immorality is a violation of ones own body which is a temple of the Holy Spirit. What you are saying is humanism and disobedience to God’s purposes.

quote:
At best the prohibition on homosexuality is a purity code.
That’s just your humanistic view, once again no scriptural support, God created male and female to be in union, even non Christians can see the species has two sexes for sexual intercourse and reproduction.
quote:
Saint Paul wrote in Romans 13 that the only command is to love neighbour.
that’s the word of God, Paul records it elsewhere as well, and Paul records not to indulge in sexual immorality in Romans 13, and Paul records men with men instead of women is error and turning away from God in Romans 1 and 1 Corinthians 6.
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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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BMS, have you tried to read any of the long thread here in Dead Horses that is directly on homosexuality and Christianity? There you will find plenty of evidence that it is possible to interpret the texts you are so fond of citing in different ways. You will disagree with some of the conclusions, of course, but Christians can come to different conclusions in good faith.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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brightmorningstar
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To Robert Armin,
My point is there is no evidence provided to support homosexuality and Christianity my friend, just plenty I and some others have provided to exclude and condemn it as outside God’s purpose. This is why I have provided it and why once again you give a baseless opinion of your own.

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brightmorningstar
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Evidently some Christians believe that Christians can differ on this issue but the majority dont. The majority see the issue as a core departure from the faith in Christ, and indeed not the root cause of the disbelief but rather a prominent example.
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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To Robert Armin,
My point is there is no evidence provided to support homosexuality and Christianity my friend, just plenty I and some others have provided to exclude and condemn it as outside God’s purpose. This is why I have provided it and why once again you give a baseless opinion of your own.

Have you read the thread that Robert refers to?

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Qoheleth.

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Have you read the thread that Robert refers to?

A simple YES/NO answer will suffice, thank you.

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leo
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He's been gone a long time - perhaps he has read the DH thread and is now repenting.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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mousethief

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Would this be a good time to mention a real estate opportunity involving historic wetlands?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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bms:
quote:
My point is there is no evidence provided to support homosexuality and Christianity my friend, just plenty I and some others have provided to exclude and condemn it as outside God’s purpose.
The "evidence" that you have provided have been a string of Bible verses that you think support your point of view. No one disputes that those verses exist, but different Christians interpret those verses, quite honestly, in different ways. That is why I asked if you had read the original DH thread.
quote:
This is why I have provided it and why once again you give a baseless opinion of your own.
I'm not sure I have given you my opinion on this matter yet (though it isn't hard to guess, admittedly). Certainly I did not express it in my last post; I merely asked if you had read the older thread.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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leo
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Yes - and BMS STILL hasn't replied.

--------------------
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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brightmorningstar
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quote:
Have you read the thread that Robert refers to?
Yes
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brightmorningstar
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# 15354

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To Robert Armin,
[quote] The "evidence" that you have provided have been a string of Bible verses that you think support your point of view. [quote] Well the Biblical testimony is the word of God and the truth, are you now implying you don’t recognise the Biblical testimony as the truth?
If you do recognise it as the truth then why would I not provide a string of Bible verses which say what the say?
The question is where is the string of Bible verses which others think countenances same sex relationships, until that appears there is no debate.

Most Christians don’t accept one can interpret something excluded and condemned as meaning it is countenanced. Most Christians see that as disbelief and not interpretation.

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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
quote:
Have you read the thread that Robert refers to?
Yes
A story for you, bms.

Some time ago, I was converted away from the church. I felt it right to chat with my minister about it (it had nothing to do with him). We met and I took about 15 minutes to share my pilgrimage, during which time he did not 'interupt'. We then spent an hour (yep, no exageration) chatting about his problems - not a single tiny reference to what I had shared. And he never has referred to it.

He would claim that he had listened to what I'd said. But he hadn't, because listening entails some sort of response / acknowledgment.

You say you have read the thread - what is your response (and quoting obscure Bible verses is not a response).

You seem more like the other person with whom I shared my story - he asked 'What about your salvation'. Thus showing that he was more concerned with his own viewpoint than with anyone else's.

Just interested in how you justify your non-listening! You don't seem to appreciate / understand that others who are posting here have been through the Biblical 'evidence' you quote and have come to a different reading of it.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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brightmorningstar
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# 15354

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To Mark Wuntoo,
I don’t think you read or listened to my posts.
Robert Armin wrtote the following ..
quote:
BMS, have you tried to read any of the long thread here in Dead Horses that is directly on homosexuality and Christianity? There you will find plenty of evidence that it is possible to interpret the texts you are so fond of citing in different ways. You will disagree with some of the conclusions, of course, but Christians can come to different conclusions in good faith.
My point is it is not possible to interpret scriptures the opposite of what they mean or no-one would be able to agree anything about God or Christianity, and that is the position for most Christians as seen by the fact the churches are splitting on the issue.
Robert Armin has merely repeated the conclusions of the evidence presented which excludes and condemns same sex relationships, the question is there is nothing to countenance same sex relations so one can’t conclude the exclusions and condemnations aren’t valid. Its called disbelief.

So no for most Christians, Christians cannot come to different conclusions where it is disbelief and indeed that is not the same faith.

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To Mark Wuntoo,
I don’t think you read or listened to my posts.
Robert Armin wrtote the following ..
quote:
BMS, have you tried to read any of the long thread here in Dead Horses that is directly on homosexuality and Christianity? There you will find plenty of evidence that it is possible to interpret the texts you are so fond of citing in different ways. You will disagree with some of the conclusions, of course, but Christians can come to different conclusions in good faith.
My point is it is not possible to interpret scriptures the opposite of what they mean or no-one would be able to agree anything about God or Christianity, and that is the position for most Christians as seen by the fact the churches are splitting on the issue.
Robert Armin has merely repeated the conclusions of the evidence presented which excludes and condemns same sex relationships, the question is there is nothing to countenance same sex relations so one can’t conclude the exclusions and condemnations aren’t valid. Its called disbelief.

So no for most Christians, Christians cannot come to different conclusions where it is disbelief and indeed that is not the same faith.

The 1 million dollar question is whether or not the scriptural passages that condemn instances of same-sex genital conduct should be taken as a blanket condemnation of homosexual relationships entirely. No one who reads the story of David and Bathsheba condemns all forms of heterosexuality from that text.

To argue that your theological opponents on this issue are motivated by lack of faith is a cheap shot. I might argue conversely that your view of this issue is coloured by your initial assumption that homosexuality is wrong.

To make it clearer, it goes something like this:

1) Person believes that homosexuality is wrong
2) Goes and reads Scripture
3) Concludes that Scripture condemns homosexuality.

Your interpretation of Scripture is to be frank, coloured by your preconceived ideas and assumptions. You are free to argue that I do the same thing, though I humbly say that I try to read Scripture through the lens of charity and justice, which IMHO are the basis of Our Lord's Gospel.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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As an outsider looking in on this discussion, it seems to me that an awful lot of people are using up an awful lot of time and brainpower to prosecute a non-discussion that clearly isn't going to go anywhere ...

Or does that statement mean that vitriol will now be flung at me from all sides (if that is what one does with vitriol)? I sincerely hope not!

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Mark Wuntoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
As an outsider looking in on this discussion, it seems to me that an awful lot of people are using up an awful lot of time and brainpower to prosecute a non-discussion that clearly isn't going to go anywhere ...

Or does that statement mean that vitriol will now be flung at me from all sides (if that is what one does with vitriol)? I sincerely hope not!

Trolls can be attractive sometimes.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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bms:
quote:
To Robert Armin,
[quote] The "evidence" that you have provided have been a string of Bible verses that you think support your point of view. [quote] Well the Biblical testimony is the word of God and the truth, are you now implying you don’t recognise the Biblical testimony as the truth?
If you do recognise it as the truth then why would I not provide a string of Bible verses which say what the say? (emphasis added)

Yes. I do accept the Bible as truth, as it bears witness to Truth Incarnate - our Lord Jesus Christ.

Having got that out of the way, I also find the Bible a very complex document at times. My position, for what it's worth (and I have no idea if anyone else on the Ship shares is this) is that the Bible has nothing to say directly about homosexuality. Out of the thousands of verses it contains only a handful possibly refer to this issue, and all of them are the centre of debate, quite apart from the issue at hand. I do not see a condemnation or an endorsement of homosexuality in the Bible - the topic isn't raised as far as I can tell.

Now there are plenty of issues we face today which are not directly in the Bible. To my mind a useful parallel is abortion, which was certainly around in Biblical times but is never tackled directly. Therefore Christians today look for general Biblical principles when considering the issue, and come to different conclusions (there's a surprise). In the same way, lacking direct Biblical teaching, Christians have to look at the overall thrust of Jesus' teaching to see how to deal with homosexuality in abstract and homosexuals in concrete. For me the overriding principle is "Love your neighbour as yourself", and I would argue for acceptance and welcome. However, I do recognise that other Christians, in good faith, come to different conclusions. Much as I would like them to agree with me, I have to accept that theirs is also a Christian response - but not the Christian response.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Louise
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# 30

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hosting on

Troll is not an acceptable term outside of Hell but a personal attack. All accusations or implications of trolling on this board will be treated as breaches of Commandment 3, so can I suggest that people drop that word right now.

Louise
Dead Horses Host
hosting off

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Mark Wuntoo
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# 5673

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Apologies. I did not realise that 'troll' is a pejorative term, thinking it was purely descriptive. I live and learn - and accept the telling-off.

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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.

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brightmorningstar
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# 15354

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To Anglican_brat,
quote:
The 1 million dollar question is whether or not the scriptural passages that condemn instances of same-sex genital conduct should be taken as a blanket condemnation of homosexual relationships entirely.
As I said it isn’t possible. Why make an assumption that is not supportable, why not seek to follow Christ’s NT teaching for man and woman or celibacy. That alone as God’s purpose indicates same sex was not God’s purpose otherwise why create woman to be with man. Furthermore men with men instead of women is equally clear that condemns same sex relationships as opposed to man woman.

quote:
To argue that your theological opponents on this issue are motivated by lack of faith is a cheap shot. I might argue conversely that your view of this issue is coloured by your initial assumption that homosexuality is wrong.
It’s not a lack of faith, its showing faith in same sex relationships, but its not the same faith in the NT testimony of Jesus Christ.

quote:
Your interpretation of Scripture is to be frank, coloured by your preconceived ideas and assumptions.
Actually it isn’t as before I came to believe and trust in Christ I didn’t think it mattered that much. But the scriptures speak for themselves, if one believes and trusts in Christ one comes to address what the scriptures say and mean.
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brightmorningstar
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To Robert Armin,
quote:
My position, for what it's worth (and I have no idea if anyone else on the Ship shares is this) is that the Bible has nothing to say directly about homosexuality. Out of the thousands of verses it contains only a handful possibly refer to this issue, and all of them are the centre of debate, quite apart from the issue at hand. I do not see a condemnation or an endorsement of homosexuality in the Bible - the topic isn't raised as far as I can tell.
homosexuality as opposed to heterosexuality is same sex attraction. How do you suppose passages such as Matthew 19 and Romans 1 does not have anything to say about homosexuality. Men with men instead of woman is either homosexual heterosexual or bisexual, what other sexes are there apart from male and female.

quote:
Now there are plenty of issues we face today which are not directly in the Bible.
That assumes the Bible has nothing to say about homosexuality which I think is unsupportable.

quote:
Christians have to look at the overall thrust of Jesus' teaching to see how to deal with homosexuality in abstract and homosexuals in concrete.
Again that assumes there is no exclusion or condemnation, and in fact all instances of countenance is man and woman or celibate and all the condemnations of sexual immorality and desires of the sinful nature implicate homosexuality included as well.
quote:
"Love your neighbour as yourself", and I would argue for acceptance and welcome.
Well that’s only half the story the other half is love God which according to what He detests rules out same sex relations as loving.
quote:
However, I do recognise that other Christians, in good faith, come to different conclusions.
Well I don’t, like most Christians I recognise this as a departure from the faith once delivered.
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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
As I said it isn’t possible. Why make an assumption that is not supportable, why not seek to follow Christ’s NT teaching for man and woman or celibacy. That alone as God’s purpose indicates same sex was not God’s purpose otherwise why create woman to be with man. Furthermore men with men instead of women is equally clear that condemns same sex relationships as opposed to man woman.
Celibacy is a calling that only a few people are blessed to be called to. It includes both heterosexuals and homosexuals who may feel called to the distinctive vocation of celibacy. To mandate it on an entire group of people and disregard whatever personal discernment they have done on this issue is foolhardy and wrongheaded.

Does Scripture really condemn same-sex relationships? What of the relationships of David and Jonathan and Ruth and Naomi? Before you argue that neither relationship included sexual activity, may I argue indeed that at the very least, Scripture recognizes that it is possible for two people of the same gender to show true affection, love and intimacy for each other.

quote:
Actually it isn’t as before I came to believe and trust in Christ I didn’t think it mattered that much. But the scriptures speak for themselves, if one believes and trusts in Christ one comes to address what the scriptures say and mean.
*Getting personal alert. I have to say that I have had a relationship with Jesus Christ since I was a young boy. And I have always treasured the witness of Holy Scripture and honestly affirm that it indeed reveals the incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ. In that journey, I have come to believe that faithful and loving relationships are sacramental, whether between a man or a woman, two men, or two women. The Scriptural passages commonly seen as condemning homosexuality never condemn same-sex relationships based on genuine love, mutuality, affection and fidetity. How could it, because such relationships (both heterosexual and gay and lesbian) reveal the love of Jesus Christ, and in their own way, point us to the inner love of the eternal Trinity.

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brightmorningstar
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To Anglican brat,

quote:
Celibacy is a calling that only a few people are blessed to be called to. It includes both heterosexuals and homosexuals who may feel called to the distinctive vocation of celibacy.
Well let me stop you there. Who says? Matthew 19 and 1 Corinthians 7 for example show that the only choices are faithful man and woman or celibacy, there is no mention of homosexual or heterosexual in the Bible, just marriage celibacy and sexual immorality. Besides adultery is heterosexual and so is faithful man woman marriage. Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees about what God’s purposes were, what you think doesn’t fit in either.
quote:
] To mandate it on an entire group of people and disregard whatever personal discernment they have done on this issue is foolhardy and wrongheaded.
Well you are entitled to your opinion, but again there is no concept of an entire group of people being victimised in God’s testimony, whoever believes may receive eternal life, and need to repent.
quote:
Does Scripture really condemn same-sex relationships? What of the relationships of David and Jonathan and Ruth and Naomi?
Well what of them, how would that be any different to what Moses allowed with divorce that wasn’t God’s purpose in the first place. Besides David and Jonathan loved each other but David saw a naked woman and slept with her and committed adultery, so yes just for starters I will argue there was no sexual activity between David and Jonathan.
quote:
may I argue indeed that at the very least, Scripture recognizes that it is possible for two people of the same gender to show true affection, love and intimacy for each other.
I agree and its also possible for two people of opposite sex to show true affection love and intimacy so there is no need to distinguish it by sex or sexual attraction.
quote:
*Getting personal alert. I have to say that I have had a relationship with Jesus Christ since I was a young boy. And I have always treasured the witness of Holy Scripture and honestly affirm that it indeed reveals the incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ. In that journey, I have come to believe that faithful and loving relationships are sacramental, whether between a man or a woman, two men, or two women.
Then I would say that’s error and not the Holy Spirit witnessing because the promised Holy Spirit guides and reminds of what Jesus taught and did. It is the Holy Spirit that reminded the NT writers and reminds me that Jesus NT teaching is for faithful man/woman marriage (Matthew 19, Mark 10, Eph 5 etc) or celibacy (Matt 19, 1 Cor 7) and specific condemnation of same sex relations (1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1)
quote:
The Scriptural passages commonly seen as condemning homosexuality never condemn same-sex relationships based on genuine love, mutuality, affection and fidetity.
No, they condemn same sex relations full stop, and the only relationships countenanced are faithful man/woman unions.
quote:
How could it, because such relationships (both heterosexual and gay and lesbian) reveal the love of Jesus Christ, and in their own way, point us to the inner love of the eternal Trinity.
Different gospel I am afraid, there are no such relationships described in the Bible revealing anything except turning away from God as Leviticus 18 & 20, 1 Corinthians 6 and Romans 1 all testify. This is what pagans and people who turn from God believe in and do.
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amber.
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Leviticus 20:27 "A man or woman who is a medium...shall be stoned to death". You mean that Leviticus chapter? So, just out of interest, have you done any stoning to death of mediums recently? Or do you pray that people who don't believe in stoning mediums to death repent of their unbelief?
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ToujoursDan

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And what about divorced and remarried people? Christ calls them adulterers. Paul says that the only moral options for them are reconciliation or celibacy. Yet there are many people in the church that persist in adulterous relationships and have adulterous sex.

quote:
To the married, however, I give this instruction (not I, but the Lord) 7 a wife should not separate from her husband and if she does separate she must either remain single or become reconciled to her husband--and a husband should not divorce his wife.
1 cor 7:10-11

Are people who remarry, whether they are Christian or not, adulterers? Must those people give up their second marriages, which are adulterous, when they become Christians?

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brightmorningstar
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To Amber,
quote:
Leviticus 20:27 "A man or woman who is a medium...shall be stoned to death". You mean that Leviticus chapter? So, just out of interest, have you done any stoning to death of mediums recently? Or do you pray that people who don't believe in stoning mediums to death repent of their unbelief?
Leviticus 19 says love ones neighbour’ have you done with that OT stuff or do you love your neighbour and stone people for wrong doing?
No, I follow Christ who is the fulfilment of the law.

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brightmorningstar
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To ToujoursDan,
quote:
And what about divorced and remarried people? Christ calls them adulterers. Paul says that the only moral options for them are reconciliation or celibacy. Yet there are many people in the church that persist in adulterous relationships and have adulterous sex.
Lets see the scriptures. So are you saying divorce and adultery are alright as well because Christ says they are wrong as well as same sex relations?
quote:
1 Cor 7:10-11
I agree.

quote:
Are people who remarry, whether they are Christian or not, adulterers? Must those people give up their second marriages, which are adulterous, when they become Christians?
Yes they are adulterers, I was an adulterer before I became and Christian and got married and having adulterous thoughts from time to time since as well. Who said they are to give up their second marriage, is it not a marriage then?
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ToujoursDan

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Why should they not have to give up their second marriages? They are persisting in an adulterous relationship, are they not? Every time they have sex with their second spouse they would be committing adultery against their first, logically.

True repentance from sin would mean stopping it, which means ending the adulterous relationship and embracing celibacy.

Does your church allow people in second marriages to join? Doesn't it demand they end them and embrace celibacy?

[ 29. December 2009, 15:10: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
quote:
Have you read the thread that Robert refers to?
Yes
What all of it?
Hundreds of pages?

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brightmorningstar
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To ToujoursDan,
quote:
Why should they not have to give up their second marriages? They are persisting in an adulterous relationship, are they not? Every time they have sex with their second spouse they would be committing adultery against their first, logically.
Why should they? Did Jesus tell the Pharisees to do so? No. Does the scripture not say divorce and remarriage commits adultery, is it not already done when one enters into the second marriage? Do you demand non believers to give up what God hasn’t ordained?
What God has ordained is faithful marriage between a man and a woman, this is grace and not the law, there is no reason to legalistically justify one sin by another.
quote:
True repentance from sin would mean stopping it, which means ending the adulterous relationship and embracing celibacy.
Or true repentance would mean committing the marriage to serve God. Besides if you don’t recognise what Jesus teaches about same sex relations why expect others to?

quote:
Does your church allow people in second marriages to join? Doesn't it demand they end them and embrace celibacy?
Marriage is ordained by God in His creation purpose, same sex relations aren’t, the scripture says because of sexual immorality if not celibate each should have their own husband wife.

The truth is that marriage is a faithful relationship bewteen man and woman, thats what the truth is and same sex realtionships are contrary and error, it doesnt matter how different people might fall short the truth remains the same. As Christians we should be encouraging each other in the truth... thats not what some are doing here by promoting the error.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To ToujoursDan,
quote:
Why should they not have to give up their second marriages? They are persisting in an adulterous relationship, are they not? Every time they have sex with their second spouse they would be committing adultery against their first, logically.
Why should they? Did Jesus tell the Pharisees to do so? No. Does the scripture not say divorce and remarriage commits adultery, is it not already done when one enters into the second marriage? Do you demand non believers to give up what God hasn’t ordained?
What God has ordained is faithful marriage between a man and a woman, this is grace and not the law, there is no reason to legalistically justify one sin by another.
quote:
True repentance from sin would mean stopping it, which means ending the adulterous relationship and embracing celibacy.
Or true repentance would mean committing the marriage to serve God.

How very convenient - so LGBs have to repent and forsake their relationships. divorced people don't.

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ToujoursDan

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quote:
Why should they? Did Jesus tell the Pharisees to do so? No.
What again are the moral choices Paul gave in 1 Corinthians 7:10-11?

Oh yeah, reconciliation or celibacy. I don't see where a second relationship is allowed unless there is infidelity in the first. Do you?

quote:
Does the scripture not say divorce and remarriage commits adultery, is it not already done when one enters into the second marriage?
No. You are supposed to be "one flesh" with the first spouse. Scripture calls the second marriage "adultery". This means that a second relationship is an "adulterous" relationship. Every time they have sex, they are committing "adultery" against the first spouse. The adultery doesn't just disappear over time. They are persisting in sin and true repentance means stopping the sin.

quote:
Do you demand non believers to give up what God hasn’t ordained?
God said that whoever remarries for a reason other than infidelity commits adultery. The adultery doesn't stop because you say so. An adulterous relationship is an adulterous relationship unless the relationship itself ends.

quote:
What God has ordained is faithful marriage between a man and a woman, this is grace and not the law, there is no reason to legalistically justify one sin by another.
Interesting double standard here.

It makes about as much sense as saying if someone repents of the act of stealing they can keep the loot.

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JoannaP
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
Besides David and Jonathan loved each other but David saw a naked woman and slept with her and committed adultery, so yes just for starters I will argue there was no sexual activity between David and Jonathan.

How very, umm what's the word I want here - naive? of you. [Two face]

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brightmorningstar
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To leo,
quote:
How very convenient - so LGBs have to repent and forsake their relationships. divorced people don't.
Jesus doesn't mention LGB's, He taught about man and woman in union. LGB's dont have to do anything Christ teaches, only disciples have to.
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brightmorningstar
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To JoannaP,
quote:
How very, umm what's the word I want here - naive? of you.
on the contrary, there is no mention, no evidence and every implication there was no sexual activity. The only sins mentioned in the whole of the story were muder and adultery by David, yet they all knew Leviticus 18 and 20 prohibitions on same sex. The sexual activity when described is David sleeping with a woman, David isnt described as sleeping with Jonathan. Can one really be so naive as to think that wherever Jesus and His disciples or anyone else in the Bible embraced and kissed and loved each other they were in a sexual relationship?
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Robert Armin

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So LGBs cannot be disciples? Are you really saying that bms?

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