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Source: (consider it) Thread: Ex-gay ministries
brightmorningstar
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To Robert Armin,
quote:
So LGBs cannot be disciples? Are you really saying that bms?
that does seem to be what you are thinking. What I said was Jesus doesn't mention LGB's, correct? He taught about man and woman in union, Correct? He taught that disciples seek to obey His teaching and do it. So you tell me who are LGB’s according to Christ’s teaching and how they can fit in?

Bear in mind that the concept of straights/heterosexuals doesn’t necessarily fit any better to what Christ taught His disciples. SO I would say disciples are those who seek to follow Christ’s teaching and thus not heterosexual or homosexual.

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brightmorningstar
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To Robert Armin,
I would add, if there is neither male nor female in Christ, that which God created, there certainly isnt any heterosexual nor homosexual in Christ, that whcih God didnt even create.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
there certainly isnt any heterosexual nor homosexual in Christ, that whcih God didnt even create.
Can you seriously, definitely, absolutely, incontrovertibly, indubitably be 100% sure about that?

[ 30. December 2009, 11:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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brightmorningstar
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To Baptist Trainfan,
Only as much as I believe the Biblical testimony. Can you be sure even without God's Biblical testimony, if so how?

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Only as much as I believe the Biblical testimony
Absolutely - but belief always implies a measure of provisionality and unsureness, not absolute certainty. That's what the word means!
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brightmorningstar
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To Baptist Trainfan,
But can you be sure even without God's Biblical testimony, if so how? Otherwise what is the point of the question?

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To JoannaP,
quote:
How very, umm what's the word I want here - naive? of you.
on the contrary, there is no mention, no evidence and every implication there was no sexual activity. The only sins mentioned in the whole of the story were muder and adultery by David, yet they all knew Leviticus 18 and 20 prohibitions on same sex. The sexual activity when described is David sleeping with a woman, David isnt described as sleeping with Jonathan. Can one really be so naive as to think that wherever Jesus and His disciples or anyone else in the Bible embraced and kissed and loved each other they were in a sexual relationship?
I agree in doubting a sexual element to David and jonathan, though some Hebraists point to a meeting outside the Cave of Adullam where an orgasm is hinted at.

So it it possible to be an adulterer and/or a murderer and a Christian but not possible to be a gay Christian?

[ 30. December 2009, 15:55: Message edited by: leo ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
To Baptist Trainfan,
But can you be sure even without God's Biblical testimony, if so how? Otherwise what is the point of the question?

Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to ask me. [Confused]
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brightmorningstar
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To leo,
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So it it possible to be an adulterer and/or a murderer and a Christian but not possible to be a gay Christian?
None of them. It is possible to be a Christian who has same sex attraction, of course. And it is possible to be a Christian and fall short by committing adultery and same sex acts, but what Jesus has done is wash cleanse and sanctify from sin so we are hidden in christ and conforming to Him. 1 Cor 6, Col 3, we are tranformed and used to seek those things. Those who are in Christ have their identity in Christ rather than sinful desires.
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brightmorningstar
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Colossians 3 shows us what a marvellous thing Jesus has done ..
1Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.[b] 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

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Baptist Trainfan
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Lots of us can download texts from Bible Gateway (I presume) ... but doing so doesn't advance our argument.
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brightmorningstar
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To Baptist Trainfan,
It does if one believes the Biblical texts hold the revelation of God's purposes rather than our own human ideas.

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Welease Woderwick

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Isn't that a rather big and vastly multifaceted "IF"?

[ 31. December 2009, 09:22: Message edited by: Welease Woderwick ]

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Robert Armin

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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To Robert Armin,
I would add, if there is neither male nor female in Christ, that which God created, there certainly isn't any heterosexual nor homosexual in Christ, that which God didn't even create.

Apart from the last six words, I would agree with this 100%. To paraphrase Galatians 3.28: "In Christ there is neither rich or poor, black or white, straight or gay for he welcomes you all".

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brightmorningstar
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To Robert Armin,
quote:
Apart from the last six words, I would agree with this 100%. To paraphrase Galatians 3.28: "In Christ there is neither rich or poor, black or white, straight or gay for he welcomes you all".
Again I ask where did you get gay from when God created woman for man, which is man for man and woman for woman? So the word of God is showing the concept of ‘gay’ is contrary to what God has created.
I would also add that these passages in Galatians 3 and Colossians 3 refer to being in Christ, so that can only be what God has ordained and one cant suggest ‘gay’ unless one can show from scripture that is of God, which cant be done.

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aggg
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If you read the minor prophets, you'll see that overconsumption and excess in the face of global poverty is "contrary to what God has created".

So you're conveniently talking about the sin that doesn't apply to you (homosexuality) to gloss over the one that does (greed).

I'd submit you'd be better off concentrating on your own sinful lifestyle than pontificating about others.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
Again I ask where did you get gay from when God created woman for man, which is man for man and woman for woman? So the word of God is showing the concept of ‘gay’ is contrary to what God has created.

Do you believe in the creation stories literally?

Was woman created from man's rib?

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Robert Armin

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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To Robert Armin,
quote:
Apart from the last six words, I would agree with this 100%. To paraphrase Galatians 3.28: "In Christ there is neither rich or poor, black or white, straight or gay for he welcomes you all".
Again I ask where did you get gay from when God created woman for man, which is man for man and woman for woman?
According to Genesis 2 God created woman after man; in Genesis 1 they are created together, in the image of God. I can't help wondering of your "biblical" view of women involves them being inferior to men in some way.

And do you think that God created some people rich and some poor? (In which case it might be seen as a sin to try to change your economic position.) My understanding of Galatians 3.28 is that this world contains all sorts of different types of people. The world may use those differences to grade humans into "acceptable" and "unacceptable", but Christ welcomes them all.

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brightmorningstar
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To leo,
quote:
Do you believe in the creation stories literally?

Was woman created from man's rib?

I have asked you where you get the concept of gay from and you have merely responded by asking me another question.
I believe God’s revelation can only be derived from what the creation accounts literally say, do you literally not believe them? I do know that I can see man and woman exists and reproduce together, so that part of the Bible must be true, and thus the question remains where do you get the concept of gay from?

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brightmorningstar
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To Robert Armin,
quote:
According to Genesis 2 God created woman after man; in Genesis 1 they are created together, in the image of God. I can't help wondering of your "biblical" view of women involves them being inferior to men in some way.
The question was where do you get the concept of gay from, in debate try and keep your mind on the points presented to you rather than your mind wandering off on other things.

quote:
And do you think that God created some people rich and some poor?
I would be glad to answer your question, provided you answer the one I asked first.
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Robert Armin

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Gay people exist. I get the concept from the people I know; I talk to them, laugh with them and so on. I just don't think they are mentioned in the Bible. In the same way I know epileptics exist, as do dyslexics, people with autism, Olympic medal winners and rocket scientists. None of these labels exist in the Bible, but the people still exist. People made the labels, God made the people.

[ 02. January 2010, 09:41: Message edited by: Robert Armin ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To leo,
quote:
Do you believe in the creation stories literally?

Was woman created from man's rib?

I have asked you where you get the concept of gay from and you have merely responded by asking me another question.
I believe God’s revelation can only be derived from what the creation accounts literally say, do you literally not believe them? I do know that I can see man and woman exists and reproduce together, so that part of the Bible must be true, and thus the question remains where do you get the concept of gay from?

Gay isn't a 'concept'. It is term used to describe about ten per cent of the human race. It is used to describe people that I know, to describe some of the people in my congregation.

I am glad that you have 'come out' as believing in the creation stories literally. It confirms that you are coming from a minority, dinosaur posoyion - but then dinosaurs aren't mentioned in Genesis so they, and you, don't exist.

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brightmorningstar
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To Robert Armin,
quote:
Gay people exist.
People who identify themselves as gay exist and who have same sex relations, but that’s what they think. They aren’t necessarily actually gay, not from a scientific pov or from a Biblical one.
quote:
I get the concept from the people I know;
I see from the Bible the concept is contrary to God’s creation.
quote:
I just don't think they are mentioned in the Bible.
I don’t see how not when the Bible refers to men with men instead of women. How can you not see it?
quote:
God made the people.
No He didn’t, I can see from the Bible He made man to be united with woman. You keep claiming what is obviously not true.
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brightmorningstar
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To leo,
quote:
Gay isn't a 'concept'. It is term used to describe about ten per cent of the human race. It is used to describe people that I know, to describe some of the people in my congregation.
How? God created man to be with woman so how does gay come about except a word to describe a sexual attraction opposite to what God has created people for?
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aggg
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
How? God created man to be with woman so how does gay come about except a word to describe a sexual attraction opposite to what God has created people for?

See - the problem is that it is next to impossible to communicate with you when you fall back on the 'because-the-bible-says-so' argument.

What on earth do you mean 'how does gay come about'?

'snonsense. But more than that, it isn't a debate - it is you attempting to be the mouthpiece of God and repeatedly using your bible trump card.

I don't accept your biblical interpretation. That should answer all of your questions.

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
People who identify themselves as gay exist and who have same sex relations, but that’s what they think. They aren’t necessarily actually gay, not from a scientific pov or from a Biblical one.

I'm going to say this in both the homosexuality thread and the abortion thread because it's important in both.
You cannot say that because a concept comes from outside the Bible it is irrelevant to the correct interpretation of the Bible. A glaring example: Psalm 98:8 'Let the floods clap their hands; let the hills sing together for joy'. If we did not allow knowledge from outside the Bible to determine the way we read the Bible we would be forced to the conclusion that the seas and lakes have hands.
The Bible won't teach us the English language (or Hebrew or Greek). If we don't know a language from outside the Bible we won't understand the Bible at all.
So you can't say that just because a concept comes from outside the Bible it is irrelevant to the Bible.

In this case, just because the Bible doesn't have the concept of gay men, doesn't mean that you can say there aren't gay men.

[ 04. January 2010, 10:44: Message edited by: Dafyd ]

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brightmorningstar
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To agg,
quote:
See - the problem is that it is next to impossible to communicate with you when you fall back on the 'because-the-bible-says-so' argument.
Well its not just the Bible, procreation as a function of sexual intercourse between the two sexes is an observable fact.

quote:
What on earth do you mean 'how does gay come about'?
Not ‘how does gay come’ about but ‘God created man to be with woman so how does gay come about except a word to describe a sexual attraction opposite to what God has created people for?’

quote:
But more than that, it isn't a debate - it is you attempting to be the mouthpiece of God and repeatedly using your bible trump card.
I am referring to what Jesus said "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[b]?
Who is your god then?

quote:
I don't accept your biblical interpretation.
I haven’t given an interpretation I have merely quoted and cited what is recorded as what God has said.
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brightmorningstar
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To Dafyd,
quote:
I'm going to say this in both the homosexuality thread and the abortion thread because it's important in both.
You cannot say that because a concept comes from outside the Bible it is irrelevant to the correct interpretation of the Bible.

Neither can you say it is.

quote:
A glaring example: Psalm 98:8 'Let the floods clap their hands; let the hills sing together for joy'. If we did not allow knowledge from outside the Bible to determine the way we read the Bible we would be forced to the conclusion that the seas and lakes have hands.
So is where a man marries a woman and where men with men instead of women something that can be seen and done or not? Otherwise why can you not distinguish between the two?

quote:
In this case, just because the Bible doesn't have the concept of gay men, doesn't mean that you can say there aren't gay men.
If one believes the Bible one can say man and woman are created to be united and men with men instead of women is error.
I, like yourself, can say whatever we want, what I am referring to is what the Bible says because I believe it is the word of God.

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aggg
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Oh God please give me something to do which means that I don't have time to waste on this.

quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To agg,
quote:
See - the problem is that it is next to impossible to communicate with you when you fall back on the 'because-the-bible-says-so' argument.
Well its not just the Bible, procreation as a function of sexual intercourse between the two sexes is an observable fact.
Is anyone arguing that single-sex relationships can reproduce? Have you heard of the concept of a straw man?

quote:
quote:
What on earth do you mean 'how does gay come about'?
Not ‘how does gay come’ about but ‘God created man to be with woman so how does gay come about except a word to describe a sexual attraction opposite to what God has created people for?’
First - not all strong relationships in life are between man and woman. Not even all those in the bible: Jonathan-David, Jesus-disciples, Elijah-Elisha, the brothers of Joseph. So we can agree that not all important relationships are about sex.

Second - there are a variety of sexual relationships in the bible, many of which you'd presumably also describe as 'the opposite of what God intended'. Such as - sex with slave, sex with concubines, sex with many wives.

If you assert that certain things are against what God Intended, maybe you also need to address why these other deviant sexual relationships were allowed to continue so often in the bible.


quote:
quote:
But more than that, it isn't a debate - it is you attempting to be the mouthpiece of God and repeatedly using your bible trump card.
I am referring to what Jesus said "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[b]?
Who is your god then?

The one who looked at the woman caught in adultery with compassion. Who spent time with the ritually outcast. Shame on you for using religion in this way to put me down.

quote:
quote:
I don't accept your biblical interpretation.
I haven’t given an interpretation I have merely quoted and cited what is recorded as what God has said.
I think you need to get a dictionary and look up 'biblical interpretation'.

[ 04. January 2010, 11:19: Message edited by: aggg ]

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brightmorningstar
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To aggg,
Well its not just the Bible, procreation as a function of sexual intercourse between the two sexes is an observable fact.

quote:
First - not all strong relationships in life are between man and woman.
sorry can you re-read the question please. ‘God created man to be with woman so how does gay come about except a word to describe a sexual attraction opposite to what God has created people for?’ I was asking about a particular relationship.

quote:
Second - there are a variety of sexual relationships in the bible, many of which you'd presumably also describe as 'the opposite of what God intended'. Such as - sex with slave, sex with concubines, sex with many wives.
I wouldn’t argue what was against God’s purpose such as sex with slave and many wives etc as what God intends, though you might seeing as you seem to be supporting same sex relations.

quote:
I think you need to get a dictionary and look up 'biblical interpretation'.
I think you do, I have quoted what all can see the Bible says, my interpretation of what it means could be the anything otherewise.
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aggg
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quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
I wouldn’t argue what was against God’s purpose such as sex with slave and many wives etc as what God intends

Right, so show me how you get from the clear message of the bible that concubines and multiple wives are wrong. Then explain to me how you have developed a theology that says they are wrong without using any interpretation of the text.

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