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Source: (consider it) Thread: Homophobia in churches
Ticachick
Apprentice
# 14263

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Hi this isnt trying to revive the old "is homosexuality wrong" topic, but more a reflection on my experiences in church. I have recently been saddened by a number of very prejudiced comments against the gay community in two churches that I have recently attended. Along the lines of assuming that all gay people are desperate to bed anyone of the same sex, that gay men are pathetic (using Howard from the apprentice as an example) etc etc.

As someone with a number of gay friends, I find these comments offensive, ignorant and unfair. I wondered had other shipmates come across this in church before, and if so how did you address it, and what is the best way to respond to this?

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TiggyTiger
Shipmate
# 14819

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I think at most churches you'll find a mixture of attitudes towards gay people as you do in society.

One of the leaders at my church said that gay people were welcome there, while at the same time referring to their relationships as 'an abomination'. That's just so welcoming!

I'm on a mission to increase understanding of homsexuality in my church because there is some painful ignorance. And I know there are people at that church who are gay and keep quiet about it. I think there are also a lot of bi-curious young women. (But maybe that's just my fantasy).

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'Each and everybody is hiding, each is concealing the place where his heart beats.'
Daniel Barenboim

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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

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Since I'm a partnered lesbian in a fairly progressive mainline church I haven't experienced that type of conversation in the context of my own congregation -- I won't say that it doesn't go on, but I figure if it does it's going on well out of our earshot.

If some clueless individual were to tell a homophobic joke during coffee hour, I might take the tack I've taken hearing racist jokes -- a look of confusion, followed by, "I'm sorry, but I didn't understand that. Can you explain the punchline?"

If someone where to drop some dubious factoid about the gay community, I might say, "Well, I'm a lesbian, and I don't perceive that in my circle of gay and lesbian friends," or cite some corrective statistic for them.

Bullies attain power when no one stands up to them. A weak laugh or a change of subject doesn't teach them anything other than that they can continue to make bigoted statements in your particular venue without any consequences.

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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279

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In denoms which are changing to allow overt homosexuality as legitimate as heterosexual marriage, there will naturally be some friction depending on what proportion of traditional-thinking people there are. This will vary even within the denom because some areas are more conservative than others.

If you are expecting to change a congregation's attitude that imho is vain: although you can make a public stand just for the sake of not remaining silent.

Nobody can say what the future holds where overt homosexuality is concerned. Because society is going to remain overwhelmingly heterosexual, I can see trouble looming where homosexuals think that they can PDA to the same degree that heteros have always been able to. But homosexuals are used to seeing hetero PDA: whereas heteros are not prepared for that. I think that overtly accepting homosexuals in church is going to run into the same problem....

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LutheranChik
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# 9826

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PDAs of any kind in church are not terribly common in Lutherland...I'm reminded of the joke about the old German (or Swede, or Norwegian, or Finn, depending on where you're telling the joke) who loved his wife so much that, once, he almost told her.

[ 28. June 2009, 02:13: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]

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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

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Laurie17
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# 14889

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Sorry -what are PDAs ?

Thanks

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when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.

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Trudy Scrumptious

BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647

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Public Displays of Affection.

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Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355

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I think that most Anglo-Catholic parishes, even the more conservative ones, take it as given that a substantial portion of the congregation will be gay. I suspect FinF places follow the Roman Catholic line about hating the sin but loving the sinner, condemning homosexuality whilst treating gay individuals with pastoral sensibility. AffCath, place, of course, go in for more out and out celebration of diversity. Most homophobic comments seem to come from the evangelical wing of the Anglican Communion. I'm not saying that all evangelicals are homophobes, but that most Anglican homophobes tend to gravitate toward the con-evo wing, where they find their leader in archhomophobe Akinola.

It is to the great discredit of George Carey that he refused to sign even such a moderate document as the Cambridge Accord, which stated nothing more than that gay people, like all other children of God, were to be treated with respect and charity. I do not believe that ++Carey disagreed with this statement, but he was entirely beholden to groups like Reform, one of the factors that made him a disappointing archbishop. Rowan Williams, an infinitely more capable and also rather more likable archbishop, did sign the accord and has written a great deal of worth the subject, but many liberals are understandably disappointed with how little progress he has been able to make.

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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Just to say that I'm checking out with other Hosts and Admin whether this thread might be better placed in DH in any case. I appreciate the intentions of the OP but IMO homophobia in the church has been a leitmotif in threads already in DH. Meanwhile, feel free ..

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Hairy Biker
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# 12086

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
S
If some clueless individual were to tell a homophobic joke during coffee hour, I might take the tack I've taken hearing racist jokes -- a look of confusion, followed by, "I'm sorry, but I didn't understand that. Can you explain the punchline?"

If someone where to drop some dubious factoid about the gay community, I might say, "Well, I'm a lesbian, and I don't perceive that in my circle of gay and lesbian friends," or cite some corrective statistic for them.

How would you react if someone said:
quote:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

?

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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst

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Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
S
If some clueless individual were to tell a homophobic joke during coffee hour, I might take the tack I've taken hearing racist jokes -- a look of confusion, followed by, "I'm sorry, but I didn't understand that. Can you explain the punchline?"

If someone where to drop some dubious factoid about the gay community, I might say, "Well, I'm a lesbian, and I don't perceive that in my circle of gay and lesbian friends," or cite some corrective statistic for them.

How would you react if someone said:
quote:

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

?

I'd say that Paul was homophobic. No one's perfect.

We'd better just saddle up the horse meat now.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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Would you consider a heterosexual who has no problem with people being gay or lesbian and practicing as such and supports their civil liberties up to the hilt but who himself has moral doubts about the practice (as well as fornication; adultery; two-timing as in practicing bisexuals; polyamory; 'open marriage' and hypocrisy (possibly the greatest sin [Devil] ) homophobic? [Two face]

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Well...

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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872

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As the Bible never mentions God blessings a same sex union can we safely asume that God is homophobic?

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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.

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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867

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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
I do not believe that ++Carey disagreed with this statement, but he was entirely beholden to groups like Reform, one of the factors that made him a disappointing archbishop.

You're of course entitled to your opinion as the merits and otherwise of anyone, but it's evident that your age and ignorance of the Church of England is at play here. Firstly, ABCs don't sign round robins especially in the politicking atmosphere after the 1998 Lambeth Conference. Secondly, Reform are a relatively small grouping of conservative evangelicals opposed to the ordination of women, constantly campaigning for their own 'flying bishop' during the 1990s and refused one by the same Archbishop you claim was beholden to them. Don't make me laugh.
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Trudy Scrumptious

BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647

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This topic seems ideally suited to hang out with similar discussions in the Dead Horses corral. Please, as always, do not take this as an indication that discussion is discouraged, but continue the conversation in its new location. Fasten your seatbelts and enjoy the ride.

Trudy, Scrumptious Purgatory Host

[ 28. June 2009, 11:22: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]

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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

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[QUOTE ]How would you react if someone said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/QUOTE]

I'd say that whoever was quoting this text was quoting it out of its cultural and rhetorical texts -- that, first of all, it references not stable, monogamous, mutually respectful relationships -- not Jim and Bill or Jane and Mary planting flowers along the picket fence next door and volunteering to host coffee hour at church -- but the sorts of exploitative sex and promiscuity practiced in the ancient world either as part of ecstatic religious experience or as the sort of droit de signeur (sp?...early in the morning here) sexual exploitation of persons in the servant class by their masters; and that in context Paul is using a litany of iniquities practiced by "those bad people over there" as a buildup to a larger theme -- that those who think they're morally superior, who rest on the laurels of their received Law, are no better than the pagans around them; so they need to "get real" about their own failures to love God and love other human beings.

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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612

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quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
It is to the great discredit of George Carey that he refused to sign even such a moderate document as the Cambridge Accord, which stated nothing more than that gay people, like all other children of God, were to be treated with respect and charity. I do not believe that ++Carey disagreed with this statement, but he was entirely beholden to groups like Reform, one of the factors that made him a disappointing archbishop. Rowan Williams, an infinitely more capable and also rather more likable archbishop, did sign the accord and has written a great deal of worth the subject, but many liberals are understandably disappointed with how little progress he has been able to make.

I take it you were in school in Texas when George Carey was Archbishop of Canterbury so you aren't necessarily the best person to comment as those of us in the South of England at the time.

As Spawn has pointed out serving Archbishops don't normally sign unofficial round robin petitions.

There is no evidence that ++George gave into Reform's demands, and in respect of their key demand they did not get it under him or ++Rowan.

Whereas it was ++Rowan who dumped Jeffrey John as the proposed Bishop of Reading after Reform and others protested, which was an appointment that ++George would not have approved in the first place.

There is a limit to what Archbishops can do if their province does not want to go in that direction. The Province of Canterbury is becoming more charismatic and evangelical on the ground, not actually as generally anti-homosexual as 20 years ago or as Reform now is, but not keen on being made to move by an Archbishop from a different background.

I would expect that a successor with more of an open evangelical background would find it easier to negotiate a compromise ove the Dead Horse than Rowan.

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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Would you consider a heterosexual who has no problem with people being gay or lesbian and practicing as such and supports their civil liberties up to the hilt but who himself has moral doubts about the practice (as well as fornication; adultery; two-timing as in practicing bisexuals; polyamory; 'open marriage' and hypocrisy (possibly the greatest sin [Devil] ) homophobic? [Two face]

Would you consider a person who has no problem, in fact, understands the importance of snakes in the natural world and supports their preservation and protection and would never injure or kill one but who herself runs screaming at the mere glimpse of one and can't even stand looking at a photos, never mind movies, of snakes to be ophidiophobic?

Or would you tell me to get over it? OliviaG

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Ticachick
Apprentice
# 14263

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I think my original intent was not to discuss the rights and wrongs of homosexuality, but assuming that even in conservative churches, when asked people will say "love the sinner, hate the sin" but when push comes to shove, there is a prejudice against homosexuals, in that jokes against this community are deemed okay (where jokes against other minority groups would not be).

I have encountered ignorant attitudes to homosexuals much more in church, than I have outside of church. I would say that as Christ called us to love one another, and to love sinners, surely the church should be modelling an anti-homophobic approach, even if they believe that the act of homosexuality is wrong. In other words living out the sentiment "love the sinner". Or does "hating the sin" cause too much cognitive dissonance, so people are unable to do this?

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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
quote:
How would you react if someone said:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd say that whoever was quoting this text was quoting it out of its cultural and rhetorical texts -- that, first of all, it references not stable, monogamous, mutually respectful relationships -- not Jim and Bill or Jane and Mary planting flowers along the picket fence next door and volunteering to host coffee hour at church -- but the sorts of exploitative sex and promiscuity practiced in the ancient world either as part of ecstatic religious experience or as the sort of droit de signeur (sp?...early in the morning here) sexual exploitation of persons in the servant class by their masters; and that in context Paul is using a litany of iniquities practiced by "those bad people over there" as a buildup to a larger theme -- that those who think they're morally superior, who rest on the laurels of their received Law, are no better than the pagans around them; so they need to "get real" about their own failures to love God and love other human beings.
And you'd be absolutely right, in the NSHO of this straight male. LC [Overused] [Overused] Why do the normal evangelical standards of biblical exposition fly out the window when this particular issue is under discussion.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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the coiled spring
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# 2872

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quote:

I have encountered ignorant attitudes to homosexuals much more in church

By what standards to you judge ignorant attitudes, biblical knowledge or man's teaching.

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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.

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jlg

What is this place?
Why am I here?
# 98

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quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
PDAs of any kind in church are not terribly common in Lutherland...I'm reminded of the joke about the old German (or Swede, or Norwegian, or Finn, depending on where you're telling the joke) who loved his wife so much that, once, he almost told her.

[Killing me] Dear God, I'm married to a nice Swedish/Norwegian heritage guy. (Not Luthernan, though, rather the agnostic UU variant.) While he does sometimes say he loves me (my having beaten into him that it's important to do so), PDAs were a brief experience during courtship, rarely to be seen again.

I grew up with all those Scandinavian and German Lutherans in the Midwest, so I understand and accept the behavior.

Seriously, though, until the silly PromiseKeepers sort of thing started, I can't think of any churches of whany way acceptable. I'm old enough and old-fashioned enough (in certain respects) to think that nobody should be flaunting their lovey-dovey, much less sexual relationship in church. That's not what we're there for.

It's the same reason we (hopefully) dress conservatively. I don't want to be exposed to too much of anyone's body or too much of any couple's relationship in church. [Roll Eyes] The particular details are irrelevant.

So the above-mentioned idea that somehow heteros have some sort of preference or advantage seems ridiculous.

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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290

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Responding to the spring's latest uncoiling, could I say that treating actual people as just that, actual people, might take precedence over a need to be condescending, rude or actively aggressive towards someone whose inclinations are somewhat different from your own?

Homosexuality may be negatively viewed in those few places in the Bible where it is mentioned at all - what is it? 6 references? - but there are over 600 admonitions about heterosexual behaviour, and I don't see anyone being kicked out of church, or physically attacked, for going against any of those strictures, even the ones that require stoning.

I just recently had to find an appropriate response to a high-school student (male) who thought that Hitler was a "good thing" since he killed off some gays, the fate of the jews being, apparently, irrelevant. The boy had been home-schooled by Christians up to year 9, so he didn't get that attitude from non-Christians.

When Christians can actually practise some of the "Love the sinner" part of the statement, we might have a little more respect shown towards Christians.

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It's Not That Simple

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TiggyTiger
Shipmate
# 14819

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It's pretty hard for someone to feel 'loved' in a church when the people in the church perceive and describe their relationship as 'an abomination'. Would heterosexual people feel loved in a place where their relationship was described in that way?

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'Each and everybody is hiding, each is concealing the place where his heart beats.'
Daniel Barenboim

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Ticachick:
Hi this isnt trying to revive the old "is homosexuality wrong" topic, but more a reflection on my experiences in church. I have recently been saddened by a number of very prejudiced comments against the gay community in two churches that I have recently attended. Along the lines of assuming that all gay people are desperate to bed anyone of the same sex, that gay men are pathetic (using Howard from the apprentice as an example) etc etc.

As someone with a number of gay friends, I find these comments offensive, ignorant and unfair. I wondered had other shipmates come across this in church before, and if so how did you address it, and what is the best way to respond to this?

You're reminding me very much of the notion that there is a 'gay lifestyle'. As if all gays live the same way.

My usual response to this is point out it makes about as much sense as witnessing the drunken louts spilling out of a nightclub late on a Saturday night and throwing up on the kerb, and declaring that this is the 'straight lifestyle'.

Most ridiculous generalisations about gays can be shown to be ridiculous by creating a 'straight' version.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872

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quote:
Would heterosexual people feel loved in a place where their relationship was described in that way?
That depends on what their relationship was and if it had God's blessing. A heterosexual relationship can come in many shades which can be not right before God in the same as Gay relationships have to be right and be blessed by Him

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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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You see, tcs, it's like this - not all of us see The Bible, presumably you mean the abbreviated version sans what you probably call the The Apocrypha, as the ultimate authority on anything. Surely it is useful sometimes in order to inform us or help us think - it even has some beautiful passages that are a bloody good read but ultimate authority, no. That is something given to it only by some, dare I say a minority, of the fellowship of the worldwide church, by no means all.

No doubt you think we're damned and heading for perdition for holding this view but then I'm a Universalist so I believe that even you will ultimately achieve union with God.

God bless.

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Mudfrog
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# 8116

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I don't agree that anyone should be nasty about anyone, but I think it should be realised that disagreeing with the practice of homosexuality is a faith-viewpoint. Unless you want to call in the thought police you will never get people to go against their ethics.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think it should be realised that disagreeing with the practise of homosexuality is a faith-viewpoint.

I completely agree with this statement, nor do I think that holding that viewpoint in itself makes someone homophobic. (The following is directed at common issues in discussions with people holding this viewpoint, not necessarily directed at Mudfrog himself.)

However,
  • I do not think homosexual relationships should be legislated against on the basis of a faith viewpoint if one does not live in a theocracy.
  • I do not think this viewpoint is the only available interpretation of the biblical texts, and therefore I would like to see differing views treated as a serious attempts at interpretation not excuses
  • I do not think unsubstantiated libels against active homosexuals should be promulgated by people holding this faith view point: eg the non-existent link between homosexuality and paedophilia
  • I would like to see serious engagement with the scientific evidence, if you wish to say that homosexuality is an innate variation that is undesirable and it is immoral to act upon it - I may not agree with the view but I can accept someone believes that on the basis of biblical material - but if you decide to simply ignore existing scientific evidence to assert homosexuality is a choice I want (preferably) scientific or biblical material to back that up. Because currently, it seems to be a circular argument, the bible says homosexuality is wrong, therefore it must be a choice - but I didn't chose to be gay, therefore your interpretation of the bible is wrong - no you did chose you are lying and/or mistaken about your experiences it really is a choice. What people don't say is, it's wrong, being born that way is a call to celibacy, we'll all have challenges in our lives to bear - this happens to be yours
  • I have not seen a convincing argument, based on the bible, as to why homosexuality is treated differently to other behaviours believed to be sins such as gossip or gluttony and why people are persistently excluded on this basis, nor do I see a rational biblically based argument as to why it is equated in severity to murder, incest and rape.
  • When people talk from this faith viewpoint they often give the impression of distaste, which strengthens my impression that a lot of responses are organised by feelings of disgust - and that relates very strongly to the concept of phobia

In short I don't think every one who believes homosexual acts to be immoral, is homophobic, but observation suggests many are. ++Akinola is a rather extreme example of this.

[ 04. July 2009, 17:10: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Laurie17
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# 14889

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What practice might that be ?

If being scientif define your terms maybe...

In my book, the phenomenolgy would have to include the practice of joy, listening, inclusion and the delights of the tea-pot in gay life ....

any other suggestions ? ...........

--------------------
when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.

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the coiled spring
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# 2872

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quote:
n short I don't think every one who believes homosexual acts to be immoral, is homophobic, but observation suggests many are. ++Akinola is a rather extreme example of this.
I think you have just proved my point about liberals being bigoted. Just because Akinola has chosen not to follow your path to damnation does not make him wrong.

By your standards(?) God is homophobic.

--------------------
give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.

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Laurie17
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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie17:
What practice might that be ?

If being scientif define your terms maybe...

In my book, the phenomenolgy would have to include the practice of joy, listening, inclusion and the delights of the tea-pot in gay life ....

any other suggestions ? ...........



--------------------
when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.

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Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
quote:
n short I don't think every one who believes homosexual acts to be immoral, is homophobic, but observation suggests many are. ++Akinola is a rather extreme example of this.
I think you have just proved my point about liberals being bigoted. Just because Akinola has chosen not to follow your path to damnation does not make him wrong.

By your standards(?) God is homophobic.

So Akinola supporting laws to imprison homosexuals or even imprison those who speak openly about supporting the rights of homosexuals is not homophobic? But my thinking that he is a prime horse's ass for such opinions makes me a bigot? I'll take my place with liberal bigots over such political persecutors. I would not choose to put Akinola into prison for his beliefs although I disagree vigorously with many of them. But it seems that he would gladly have me in prison for my beliefs if I made them known in Nigeria.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
quote:
n short I don't think every one who believes homosexual acts to be immoral, is homophobic, but observation suggests many are. ++Akinola is a rather extreme example of this.
I think you have just proved my point about liberals being bigoted. Just because Akinola has chosen not to follow your path to damnation does not make him wrong.

By your standards(?) God is homophobic.

Oh WELL DONE on entirely missing the point of Doublethink's lengthy and extremely well thought-out post. Well done indeed.

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orfeo

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I mean, you didn't even get the point of the couple of isolated sentences you QUOTED. Never mind the rest of it.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Curiosity killed ...

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orfeo, you might find reading the coiled spring in Hell helps.

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
orfeo, you might find reading the coiled spring in Hell helps.

I have, actually. Thinking about starting a whole new thread on the topic.

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Laurie17
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http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-11826.html

--------------------
when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.

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Louise
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Indeed, the correct place once things start to get personal is the Hell Board.

quote:
4. If you must get personal, take it to Hell

If you get into a personality conflict with other shipmates, you have two simple choices: end the argument or take it to Hell.

cheers,
Louise

Dead Horses Host

[ 05. July 2009, 00:41: Message edited by: Louise ]

--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.

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Rosa Winkel

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# 11424

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I don't agree that anyone should be nasty about anyone, but I think it should be realised that disagreeing with the practice of homosexuality is a faith-viewpoint. Unless you want to call in the thought police you will never get people to go against their ethics.

Pseudo-theology used to (and still does, in some parts of the world) lie behind anti-semitism too, doesn't make it a valid viewpoint, to be accepted just because it comes from 'faith'.

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I don't agree that anyone should be nasty about anyone, but I think it should be realised that disagreeing with the practice of homosexuality is a faith-viewpoint. Unless you want to call in the thought police you will never get people to go against their ethics.

Pseudo-theology used to (and still does, in some parts of the world) lie behind anti-semitism too, doesn't make it a valid viewpoint, to be accepted just because it comes from 'faith'.
That's one of the primary rhetorical benefits of religious thought; the fact that you don't have to justify or explain anything. The explanation comes down to "because God said so!" This not only alleviates the need for you to explain why you're right, it also means that anyone who disagrees isn't disagreeing with you, their arguing against God.

--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Laurie17:
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-11826.html

quote:
From the article:
The group [of parents] stated: "God hates the UK and the Tomlinson School fag tyranny, where conscientious parents face religious persecution for withdrawing their children on lying fag so-called history."

God weeps.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Rosa Winkel

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Oh, the 'practice of homosexuality' is something new on me. Unless they have to get warm up to it, before doing it right.

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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

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Yerevan
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# 10383

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I don't agree that anyone should be nasty about anyone, but I think it should be realised that disagreeing with the practice of homosexuality is a faith-viewpoint. Unless you want to call in the thought police you will never get people to go against their ethics.

Pseudo-theology used to (and still does, in some parts of the world) lie behind anti-semitism too, doesn't make it a valid viewpoint, to be accepted just because it comes from 'faith'.
That's one of the primary rhetorical benefits of religious thought; the fact that you don't have to justify or explain anything. The explanation comes down to "because God said so!" This not only alleviates the need for you to explain why you're right, it also means that anyone who disagrees isn't disagreeing with you, their arguing against God.
Though two thousand years of Christian argumentativeness suggests that folding your arms and saying "God said so" has never been an overly effective way of controlling people.
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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

  • I do not think homosexual relationships should be legislated against on the basis of a faith viewpoint if one does not live in a theocracy.
  • I do not think this viewpoint is the only available interpretation of the biblical texts, and therefore I would like to see differing views treated as a serious attempts at interpretation not excuses
  • I do not think unsubstantiated libels against active homosexuals should be promulgated by people holding this faith view point: eg the non-existent link between homosexuality and paedophilia
  • I would like to see serious engagement with the scientific evidence, if you wish to say that homosexuality is an innate variation that is undesirable and it is immoral to act upon it - I may not agree with the view but I can accept someone believes that on the basis of biblical material - but if you decide to simply ignore existing scientific evidence to assert homosexuality is a choice I want (preferably) scientific or biblical material to back that up. Because currently, it seems to be a circular argument, the bible says homosexuality is wrong, therefore it must be a choice - but I didn't chose to be gay, therefore your interpretation of the bible is wrong - no you did chose you are lying and/or mistaken about your experiences it really is a choice. What people don't say is, it's wrong, being born that way is a call to celibacy, we'll all have challenges in our lives to bear - this happens to be yours
  • I have not seen a convincing argument, based on the bible, as to why homosexuality is treated differently to other behaviours believed to be sins such as gossip or gluttony and why people are persistently excluded on this basis, nor do I see a rational biblically based argument as to why it is equated in severity to murder, incest and rape.
  • When people talk from this faith viewpoint they often give the impression of distaste, which strengthens my impression that a lot of responses are organised by feelings of disgust - and that relates very strongly to the concept of phobia

[Overused] I may completely disagree with you on this issue DT but I endorse your list above. If both sides of the argument could start with your list we might even make some progress.
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Matt Black

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Doublethink, likewise [Overused]

I may be from pretty much the other side of the fence from you on this issue, but I can heartily endorse all you say, including the bit about ++Akinola: in so far as he calls for criminal sanctions - and worse - against those is S-S relationships, he's a nasty homophobic bastard, and I'm sorry to have him on my 'side'.

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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the coiled spring
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quote:
I may be from pretty much the other side of the fence from you on this issue, but I can heartily endorse all you say, including the bit about ++Akinola: in so far as he calls for criminal sanctions - and worse - against those is S-S relationships, he's a nasty homophobic bastard, and I'm sorry to have him on my 'side'.
Are you sure about that considering what 2 Peter 2 has to say

--------------------
give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.

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Laurie17
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Both sides ?

quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

  • I do not think homosexual relationships should be legislated against on the basis of a faith viewpoint if one does not live in a theocracy.
  • I do not think this viewpoint is the only available interpretation of the biblical texts, and therefore I would like to see differing views treated as a serious attempts at interpretation not excuses
  • I do not think unsubstantiated libels against active homosexuals should be promulgated by people holding this faith view point: eg the non-existent link between homosexuality and paedophilia
  • I would like to see serious engagement with the scientific evidence, if you wish to say that homosexuality is an innate variation that is undesirable and it is immoral to act upon it - I may not agree with the view but I can accept someone believes that on the basis of biblical material - but if you decide to simply ignore existing scientific evidence to assert homosexuality is a choice I want (preferably) scientific or biblical material to back that up. Because currently, it seems to be a circular argument, the bible says homosexuality is wrong, therefore it must be a choice - but I didn't chose to be gay, therefore your interpretation of the bible is wrong - no you did chose you are lying and/or mistaken about your experiences it really is a choice. What people don't say is, it's wrong, being born that way is a call to celibacy, we'll all have challenges in our lives to bear - this happens to be yours
  • I have not seen a convincing argument, based on the bible, as to why homosexuality is treated differently to other behaviours believed to be sins such as gossip or gluttony and why people are persistently excluded on this basis, nor do I see a rational biblically based argument as to why it is equated in severity to murder, incest and rape.
  • When people talk from this faith viewpoint they often give the impression of distaste, which strengthens my impression that a lot of responses are organised by feelings of disgust - and that relates very strongly to the concept of phobia

[Overused] I may completely disagree with you on this issue DT but I endorse your list above. If both sides of the argument could start with your list we might even make some progress.
Both sides of what ?

The oppressors and the oppressed is that it ?

These are hardly 'sides'.

--------------------
when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.

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ToujoursDan

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quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
quote:
I may be from pretty much the other side of the fence from you on this issue, but I can heartily endorse all you say, including the bit about ++Akinola: in so far as he calls for criminal sanctions - and worse - against those is S-S relationships, he's a nasty homophobic bastard, and I'm sorry to have him on my 'side'.
Are you sure about that considering what 2 Peter 2 has to say
Dont'cha just love it when people toss Bible verses out with the expectation that everyone is going to understand/interpret/apply it the same way they do?

Why people can't just tell us what they believe and maybe what Biblical support they may be using to justify it, is beyond me. People who have posted on the Ship for any length of time should know better.

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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the coiled spring
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quote:
Dont'cha just love it when people toss Bible verses out with the expectation that everyone is going to understand/interpret/apply it the same way they do?
Dont'cha just love it when people get upset when one goes back to the Bible for an answer....

--------------------
give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.

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