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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Lesbians and the Bible
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
So over in Hell I just learnt that Buffy the Vampire Slayer involves lesbians. May we have a Lesbians in Buffy the Vampire Slayer thread, please?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
quote:
If that is wrong, what about gays who engage only in oral sex? in kissing? hugging?
I am shocked that oral sex is mentioned, does one need a snorkel? Does Scripture mention any blessing for oral sex. This kissing, is it like Paul's thing a Holy Kiss in greeting. One has to careful about hugging as some Anglican churches have banned this practices. Don't know if it is because some turn a hug into a quick grope
The above seems to know little about sex.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Just thought I'd interject an apposite piece, found here , which pretty much sums up my feelings about some of the posters here.
Of course, the writer, The Real Live Preacher, is a renegade from the Southern Baptist convention, just as is Jimmy Carter, so he is probably not a Christian in the view of those (self-selected) who speak for God, but I prefer to read him anyway.
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
quote:
How can I respond to one so devoid of theology?
I would rather have the gift of compassion then permanent brain damage from theology
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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Might help if your compassion were visible, instead of hiding it in order to be pointlessly nasty to those you dislike while brandishing your bible.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
the coiled spring, your clumsy efforts to troll are noted. If they are brought to my attention again, you will be suspended.
-RooK
Admin
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
For the others - please step away from the line too. You all know where the Hell board is, if you want to get personal.
By the way, please check the title of this thread and return to the topic. If you have nothing to say about Lesbians and the Bible, then please don't post on this thread.
Thanks
Louise
Dead Horses Host
[ 01. January 2010, 23:22: Message edited by: Louise ]
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
quote:
the coiled spring, your clumsy efforts to troll are noted. If they are brought to my attention again, you will be suspended.
-RooK
No problems, be my guest as I am sure you understand salvation is not throught the Ship of Fools.
Many of your followers will hail you a hero
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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
To Anglican_Brat,
In response to your post Posted 31 December, 2009 17:34
quote:
You are a judgmental little fuckwad, who preaches hate under the cover of Christianity. Whenever I read your posts, I hear the voice of the enemy, accusing my fellow queer brothers and sisters, attacking them mercilessly and without compassion.
The big log in your eye is your assholey.
Fuck off, and Happy New Year.
If love for you is found in sex then so be it, I do wish you a happy new year as well though.
Sorry I don’t think we have the same faith in Christ at all.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
quote:
If that is wrong, what about gays who engage only in oral sex? in kissing? hugging?
But how is kissing sex? Kissing can accompany the sexual act but it isn’t sexual intercourse, nor is oral sex sexual intercourse as such. Surely the sexual reproductive organs together in intercourse define what sex is otherwise the use of one sexual organ in any way to gratify would be sex. This is where I think society has blurred the whole reality.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
To Túathalán
Thanks for your reply about GAFCON. My mention of GAFCON was merely an example indicating the majority. Once again instead of disputing the example I give why not give an example of your own to counter it. I believe you are woefully incorrect, I think you will find most of the 75% Anglicans represented at GAFCON are very solidly against same sex relations, after all its culturally unacceptable for most of them as well. I would also suggest that many of the other approximate 25% is not nearly as representative.
Furthermore, what the majority says is right wasn’t my argument at any point, rather that what God’s Biblical testimony says is right, which the majority just happen to believe.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
To leo,
quote:
I bet your gay 'friends' love you. I can see them hiding when you walk into the bar.
They do seem to love me, I don’t have trouble with many gay and lesbians, only most of the hatred I find is from so called ‘gay christians’
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
quote:
If that is wrong, what about gays who engage only in oral sex? in kissing? hugging?
But how is kissing sex? Kissing can accompany the sexual act but it isn’t sexual intercourse, nor is oral sex sexual intercourse as such. Surely the sexual reproductive organs together in intercourse define what sex is otherwise the use of one sexual organ in any way to gratify would be sex. This is where I think society has blurred the whole reality.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
Bright Morning Star, why 'Gay Christians?' It is not an oxymoron; I'm one for a start.
I would respectfully like to make an observation.
What amused / appalled me about GAFCON is that most of the bishops present were from societies with overwhelming social problems that cry out to heaven for mercy and justice. Think of the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda or the recovery from genocide in Rwanda, or the sexual violence against women and children that fuels the AIDS pandemic in Africa. Were any of these issues addressed or engaged with theologically?
No, it seems the ordination of a gay man to the episcopate in a quiet corner of New England is much more pressing than mere life and death in Africa. Don't you think priorities are just a little out of kilter here?
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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
To Matariki,
quote:
Originally posted by Matariki:
Bright Morning Star, why 'Gay Christians?' It is not an oxymoron; I'm one for a start.
You make a good point about the 'Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda' Anyone can claim they are what thye think they are, but to an extent one can test to see if it is true.
I think the Lord's Resistance Army is another oxymoron.
I see that there are terrible social issues in some of these places which are mostly poorer, but I would point out there are terrible social issues in what are mostly our richer countries, abortion, drugs, prostitution, homosexuality, corruption, greed, slander, murder, etc.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
quote:
If that is wrong, what about gays who engage only in oral sex? in kissing? hugging?
But how is kissing sex? Kissing can accompany the sexual act but it isn’t sexual intercourse, nor is oral sex sexual intercourse as such. Surely the sexual reproductive organs together in intercourse define what sex is otherwise the use of one sexual organ in any way to gratify would be sex. This is where I think society has blurred the whole reality.
At risk of showing my (heterosexual) ignorance ... !
So you have no difficulty in accepting that one can be lesbian and Christian? By your definition, lesbians are not capable of having sex?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mrs Shrew
Ship's Mother
# 8635
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Posted
Mark Wuntoo has hit the nail on the head - none of this is a problem, as if sex is ONLY the use of a particular combination of sexual organs in a particular way, lesbians cannot do this and therefore cannot have sex, which is all that makes their relationship immoral (since otherwise it is just friendship).
Hence there is no problem with lesbian activity.
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"The goal of life is not to make other people in your own image, it is to understand that they, too, are in God's image" (Orfeo)
Was "mummyfrances".
Posts: 703 | From: York, England | Registered: Oct 2004
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
Well the issue of the organs addresses what is actually sexual intercourse or not, the rest being sexually dysfucntional activities for gratfication and pleasure. These between women are error and described thus in the Bible because they are against the relationship God has created for woman to be with man. Remember, the word lesian is not friendship but a sex based relationship.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
Well the issue of the organs addresses what is actually sexual intercourse or not, the rest being sexually dysfucntional activities for gratfication and pleasure. These between women are error and described thus in the Bible because they are against the relationship God has created for woman to be with man. Remember, the word lesian is not friendship but a sex based relationship.
It is suggested in 'Preview' that you read your post before pressing the reply button. If you had done that you might have seen what a nonsensical statement this is - which also contadicts what you said above about your understanding of the nature of 'sex'.
At least, I have cleared-up in my jd where you stand on these isseus. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
quote:
If that is wrong, what about gays who engage only in oral sex? in kissing? hugging?
But how is kissing sex? Kissing can accompany the sexual act but it isn’t sexual intercourse, nor is oral sex sexual intercourse as such. Surely the sexual reproductive organs together in intercourse define what sex is otherwise the use of one sexual organ in any way to gratify would be sex. This is where I think society has blurred the whole reality.
What a highly limited view of whaty constitutes 'sex'. Reductionist. Maybe some people need to read the Bible less and a manual of love-making instead.
Sex involves the whole of our bodies, with their erogenous zones. Sex involves out emotions, out brains, our souls. To limit it to penises and vaginas is to be less than fully human, lesss that being created in the image of God.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
...To limit it to penises and vaginas is to be less than fully human, lesss that being created in the image of God.
Surely to limit it to penises and vaginas is to be rather less than honest!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To Matariki,
quote:
Originally posted by Matariki:
Bright Morning Star, why 'Gay Christians?' It is not an oxymoron; I'm one for a start.
You make a good point about the 'Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda' Anyone can claim they are what thye think they are, but to an extent one can test to see if it is true.
I think the Lord's Resistance Army is another oxymoron.
This is the attitude in the sexuality debate that I've never understood: the idea that homosexuals cannot be Christians. Why not? I've looked and I've looked and I can't find anything in Scripture that says those who engage in what we now call homosexual acts have cut themselves off from salvation, more than any other sin. Jesus even says that those who blaspheme the Son of Man will be forgiven, yet (some of) those who are anti-homosexuality apparently believe it is of a higher order than blasphemy!
Please could BMS, or anyone else who shares his/her views please explain why this is such a crucial point to them, one that requires so much energy, effort and campaigning on their part to put their views across about?
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
Originally posted by Stejjie: ... quote:
Please could BMS, or anyone else who shares his/her views please explain why this is such a crucial point to them, one that requires so much energy, effort and campaigning on their part to put their views across about? [/QB]
I, too, would be interested to have an answer to this important question. As I am sure you know, Stejjie, you can go into many churches of a certain brand and it will not be long before the issue is raised (in one form of another, not necessarily overtly). Seems often to be some sort of obsession. And the Bible says so little (if anything) about the issue.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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the coiled spring
Shipmate
# 2872
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Posted
quote:
Why not? I've looked and I've looked and I can't find anything in Scripture that says those who engage in what we now call homosexual acts have cut themselves off from salvation, more than any other sin
I think you might have skipped the repentance bit
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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.
Posts: 2359 | From: mountain top retreat lodge overlooking skegness | Registered: May 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
Well the issue of the organs addresses what is actually sexual intercourse or not, the rest being sexually dysfucntional activities for gratfication and pleasure. These between women are error and described thus in the Bible because they are against the relationship God has created for woman to be with man. Remember, the word lesian is not friendship but a sex based relationship.
So kissing is dysfunctional? God meant us to do the wham bam and thank you ma'am only. What an awful sex life some people must lead.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
Mark Wuntoo has hit the nail on the head - none of this is a problem, as if sex is ONLY the use of a particular combination of sexual organs in a particular way, lesbians cannot do this and therefore cannot have sex, which is all that makes their relationship immoral (since otherwise it is just friendship).
Hence there is no problem with lesbian activity.
Indeed. Though BMS suggests that kissing in dysfunctional - so straights can't be Christians either.
Are there ANY Christians?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
quote:
Why not? I've looked and I've looked and I can't find anything in Scripture that says those who engage in what we now call homosexual acts have cut themselves off from salvation, more than any other sin
I think you might have skipped the repentance bit
Well that begs the question, is one's salvation dependent on one's repentance?
And what exactly does that entail? None of us will ever be perfect and sinless in this life. I do think that we are in the process of sancification, that God is working with us so that yes, we do repent of our sins and become more Christlike. But I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and suddenly be perfect and impeccable.
Even if homosexuality is sinful, which I don't think it is, how does this justify the rather discriminatory and hateful attitudes of some Christians? Scripture and Tradition both condemn usury. I can think of no Christian today advocating that bankers are damned to hellfire and brimstone.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To leo,
quote:
I bet your gay 'friends' love you. I can see them hiding when you walk into the bar.
They do seem to love me, I don’t have trouble with many gay and lesbians, only most of the hatred I find is from so called ‘gay christians’
When you are so condemnatory how can you expect any attitude apart from intense antipathy on the part of those whom you condemn?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
quote:
Please clarify, are you saying that God created all the heavens and all the earth and all the plants and all the creatures and everything in between, just so people had a place to have heterosexual sex?
Are you say He didn't. Also is it God's plan for a man to put his willie up another man's botty for pleasure
Was it God's plan for a man to do that to a woman?
Seriously though, can we lay to rest the assumption that gay sex= anal sex? There are plenty of heterosexual couples that engage in anal sex and some gay couples do not engage in it at all.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
Mark Wuntoo has hit the nail on the head - none of this is a problem, as if sex is ONLY the use of a particular combination of sexual organs in a particular way, lesbians cannot do this and therefore cannot have sex, which is all that makes their relationship immoral (since otherwise it is just friendship).
Hence there is no problem with lesbian activity.
Indeed. Though BMS suggests that kissing in dysfunctional - so straights can't be Christians either.
Are there ANY Christians?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
leo: this would seem to narrow the field rather - to one maybe?
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To Anglican_Brat,
In response to your post Posted 31 December, 2009 17:34
quote:
You are a judgmental little fuckwad, who preaches hate under the cover of Christianity. Whenever I read your posts, I hear the voice of the enemy, accusing my fellow queer brothers and sisters, attacking them mercilessly and without compassion.
The big log in your eye is your assholey.
Fuck off, and Happy New Year.
If love for you is found in sex then so be it, I do wish you a happy new year as well though.
Sorry I don’t think we have the same faith in Christ at all.
hosting
Brightmorningstar,
the post you have quoted and replied to was made on the Hell board. Please do not import posts from the Hell board into this board or reply to them or quote them here. The Hell board exists to keep personal conflicts off boards like this. Please either answer the post in situ on the Hell thread where it was made or not at all.
Thank you.
Louise
Dead Horses Host
hosting off
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Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
quote:
Why not? I've looked and I've looked and I can't find anything in Scripture that says those who engage in what we now call homosexual acts have cut themselves off from salvation, more than any other sin
I think you might have skipped the repentance bit
Alright... why are homosexuals called to repent more frequently, and with more vehemence, than other "sinners" (if one believes homosexuality to be a sin). Even if Jesus spoke about it (and I don't find the Matthew 19 text particularly convincing on this), He was much more clear about other things (not loving others, greed, selfishness, anger etc.). As was Paul; as is Leviticus etc...
I agree with Mark Wuntoo that in some churches it's only a matter of time before this gets mentioned. Why? Aren't there more important things to worry about? Are homosexuals really to blame for pulling the whole of humanity down (an exaggeration, maybe, but given the strength of views expressed by some, perhaps not much).
No one's yet answered this question - at least, not very satisfactorily.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
This is the attitude in the sexuality debate that I've never understood: the idea that homosexuals cannot be Christians. Why not?
I think his argument is that having a homosexual nature isn't a problem - it's just another temptation. Having a gay shag every now and then might not be a problem either, so long as the person genuinely repented each time. As I understand it, BMS is arguing that the modern identity of being 'gay' is different to this. It's fundamentally incompatible with Christianity because (in his opinion) it represents an ongoing rejection of Biblical authority.
Last year there was a thread asking if BNP supporters could be Christians. Some Shipmates said no; they believed the worldviews were too different. Perhaps BMS sees homosexual identity/lifestyle in a similar light.
(Then again, I might not have understood his position properly.)
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
This is the attitude in the sexuality debate that I've never understood: the idea that homosexuals cannot be Christians. Why not?
I think his argument is that having a homosexual nature isn't a problem - it's just another temptation. Having a gay shag every now and then might not be a problem either, so long as the person genuinely repented each time. As I understand it, BMS is arguing that the modern identity of being 'gay' is different to this. It's fundamentally incompatible with Christianity because (in his opinion) it represents an ongoing rejection of Biblical authority.
Last year there was a thread asking if BNP supporters could be Christians. Some Shipmates said no; they believed the worldviews were too different. Perhaps BMS sees homosexual identity/lifestyle in a similar light.
(Then again, I might not have understood his position properly.)
Thanks for that - it would be good to hear if this is the position of BMS et. al. (I do wonder about the "gay shag" bit, though: given some of things that have been posted, I can't help but think the line is that nothing is acceptable).
I still don't fully understand, though, why this is given such importance amongst some Christians given how little it is spoken of in the Bible. After all, any sin, if not repented from, can be destructive. Why single this one out? Would appreciate an answer from those who hold this view.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the coiled spring:
Many of your followers will hail you a hero
My true followers aren't that idiotic, as they'll be disappointed by a lame "suicide by cop".
So it goes.
-RooK
Admin
[ 02. January 2010, 15:48: Message edited by: RooK ]
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
Bright Morning Star, Thank you for your reply to the points I raised.
In regard to the social ills you say the rich nations face, even if I thought homosexuality was a social ill, it would seem stretching the point beyond credulity to compare it to drugs or any of the other ills you cite.
Debates about homosexuality can get depressing, no one ever seems to change their mind and arguments get very heated. I ask you to reflect what it must be like to be directly affected by this debate. Take it from a gay Christian in ordained ministry, it can be pretty tough.
The biblical passages I imagine you draw on are not 'plain words of scripture.' They are embedded in particular contexts.
What do we really think sexuality is for; just the itch to procreate? No, it makes us more caring and loving. I think I am a far bettter person for having spent the last 15 years in a relationship than if I had not been.
I am starting to ramble so I will now end.
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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Wuntoo:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Shrew:
Mark Wuntoo has hit the nail on the head - none of this is a problem, as if sex is ONLY the use of a particular combination of sexual organs in a particular way, lesbians cannot do this and therefore cannot have sex, which is all that makes their relationship immoral (since otherwise it is just friendship).
Hence there is no problem with lesbian activity.
Indeed. Though BMS suggests that kissing in dysfunctional - so straights can't be Christians either.
Are there ANY Christians?
leo: this would seem to narrow the field rather - to one maybe?
Would that be Jesus or BMS?
Can't be Jesus because he was celibate, thus not obeying the command to procreate. He was also a bit too pally with that disciple John - sitting on someone's 'breast' is probably 'dysfunctional'.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
This is the attitude in the sexuality debate that I've never understood: the idea that homosexuals cannot be Christians. Why not?
I think his argument is that having a homosexual nature isn't a problem - it's just another temptation. Having a gay shag every now and then might not be a problem either, so long as the person genuinely repented each time.
That, of course, has been the attitude of many and is toxic - I wrote about it in a recent book but I am not going to shamelessly self-publicise. Suffice it to say that those who have a one-night-stand, repent, go to confession and get absolved are examples of what Paul calls 'the law of sin and death'. They get trapped in a sin-repent-lapse cycle which prevents them forming stable relationships and stuck in promiscuity.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
<HOST MODE - ACTIVATE>
This thread has been generating much more heat than light over the last few days.
Louise and I have been watching it with increasing dismay, and it has now resulted in the enforced departure of a shipmate.
I am invoking a Dead Horse Board tradition and therefore require shipmates to not make any further posts to this thread for 24 hours - that is, until 18:00GMT on Sunday 3rd January.
This is not optional!
<HOST MODE - DEACTIVATE>
Yours aye ... TonyK
Host, Dead Horses
[ 02. January 2010, 16:54: Message edited by: TonyK ]
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Mark Wuntoo
Shipmate
# 5673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matariki:
... Debates about homosexuality can get depressing, no one ever seems to change their mind ....
My mind has been changed on a number of issues through meeting individuals who previously had been the 'target' of my prejudice: this includes gay Christians.
OTOH some people, as you say, may never change, even when they have interacted with those of a different mind.
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Blessed are the cracked for they let in the light.
Posts: 1950 | From: Somewhere else. | Registered: Mar 2004
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Mark Wuntoo - I assume that you were typing your post while I was applying the moratorium on this thread.
Please note my post above yours.
Yours aye ... TonyK
Host, Dead Horses
[ 02. January 2010, 17:03: Message edited by: TonyK ]
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Thank you for your patience - please feel free to resume the debate and discussion. Emphasis intentional!
Yours aye ... TonyK
Host, Dead Horses
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
To Stejjie,
quote:
This is the attitude in the sexuality debate that I've never understood: the idea that homosexuals cannot be Christians. Why not?
I would agree with you, anyone can become a Christian. But what they cant become is a gay or straight christian which merely suggests they haven’t yet become a Christian.
quote:
I've looked and I've looked and I can't find anything in Scripture that says those who engage in what we now call homosexual acts have cut themselves off from salvation, more than any other sin.
That’s like saying one has looked and looked in scripture and one cant see Jesus saying anything about helping the poor. 1 Corinthians 6 is just one example
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
That addresses your former point as well, if a gay Christian is one who believes in same sex relations then according to 1 Corinthians 6 they haven’t yet become believers/Christians.
quote:
Please could BMS, or anyone else who shares his/her views please explain why this is such a crucial point to them, one that requires so much energy, effort and campaigning on their part to put their views across about?
I think I have done, to suggest same sex relations aren’t important would be like saying Jesus never said help the poor. It is simply disbelief and denial, of one can ignore and deny what the Bible says about man woman and same sex relationships one could deny anything the Bible says, hence the Lord’s army in Uganda.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
To Anglican_brat,
quote:
Well that begs the question, is one's salvation dependent on one's repentance?
Well that’s a question for you, Jesus Christ’s teaching is that it is. See for example Luke 13:3, but this is another common core understanding Christians know. Luke 13:3 “I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”
quote:
And what exactly does that entail? None of us will ever be perfect and sinless in this life. I do think that we are in the process of sancification, that God is working with us so that yes, we do repent of our sins and become more Christlike. But I'm not going to wake up tomorrow and suddenly be perfect and impeccable.
If we could be perfect there would have been no need for Jesus Christ’s salvation.
quote:
Even if homosexuality is sinful, which I don't think it is,
So if someone said theft, lying, murder and the other sins are not sinful would you accept their interpretation?
quote:
how does this justify the rather discriminatory and hateful attitudes of some Christians? Scripture and Tradition both condemn usury.
Again, I don’t think you fully understand this either. See the references in the light of Deuteronomy 23:19,20. and the parables. Would Christians charge interest with their personal lending to other Christian brothers and sisters, they shouldn’t.
Deuteronomy 23:19,20 shows that lending to foreigners with interest can occur, show me any countenance for same sex relations.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
To leo,
quote:
Would that be Jesus or BMS?
or in fact would that be leo.
quote:
Can't be Jesus because he was celibate, thus not obeying the command to procreate.
Three things here really.
Firstly if you did recognise the command you wouldnt support same sex relationships because they cant procreate. So you are playing devil's adocate there.
Secondly, to procreate was for man and woman from God, Jesus spoke what He heard the Father God saying and indeed affirms the purpose of man and woman in union.
Thirdly Jesus offers the alternative of celibacy which is the oppsoite of a relationship, so He recognises that for any reason someone might not be able to fulfil the command to procreate.
I cant see how you can believe Jesus was speaking the words of God when you keep questioning them.
quote:
He was also a bit too pally with that disciple John - sitting on someone's 'breast' is probably 'dysfunctional'.
Again thats not what the scripture actually says and just your opinion.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
To Matariki,
quote:
Bright Morning Star, Thank you for your reply to the points I raised.
In regard to the social ills you say the rich nations face, even if I thought homosexuality was a social ill, it would seem stretching the point beyond credulity to compare it to drugs or any of the other ills you cite.
For you perhaps, but as you know not for many of the cultures of the poorer countries. Furthermore, one can see that the Bible doesn’t distinguish any hierarchy of sins such as lying from murder, from sexual immorality including same sex relations etc. ie. Mark 7, 1 Cor 6, Romans 1. You seem to be doing so.
quote:
I ask you to reflect what it must be like to be directly affected by this debate. Take it from a gay Christian in ordained ministry, it can be pretty tough.
All believers are affected by this debate because same sex relations are just one sin identified amongst many that Jesus has died to provide forgiveness for. All believers are challenged by at least some so that one has to avoid temptation and repent.
This is why the Holy Spirit is made available to help. If one focuses on sin one usually ends up struggling to avoid it, if however one focuses on
quote:
The biblical passages I imagine you draw on are not 'plain words of scripture.' They are embedded in particular contexts.
Well no they cant be, firstly otherwise all the sins would be in a particular context and similarly acceptable under certain circumstances if same sex relations were, and secondly there is no indication of this, the indication is it isn’t.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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aggg
Shipmate
# 13727
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Posted
Not sure if it helps, BMS, but my wife and I have no hope of procreating. At least that is what they told me at the hospital after I'd been for.. well, a little operation.
Presumably that makes any intercourse between my wife and I sinful?
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Myrrh: please, in future refrain from replying to anything I might write
Posts: 567 | Registered: May 2008
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brightmorningstar
Shipmate
# 15354
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Posted
To arggg,
quote:
Presumably that makes any intercourse between my wife and I sinful?
Why would it do that? Are you getting confused between why man and woman, male and female exist, and fertilty. Fertility is irrelevant to the discussion as it never affects apllies concerning procreation to same sex couples, which is another obvious reason why same sex relations are dysfucntional.
Posts: 243 | From: London area | Registered: Dec 2009
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aggg
Shipmate
# 13727
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by brightmorningstar:
To arggg,
quote:
Presumably that makes any intercourse between my wife and I sinful?
Why would it do that? Are you getting confused between why man and woman, male and female exist, and fertilty. Fertility is irrelevant to the discussion as it never affects apllies concerning procreation to same sex couples, which is another obvious reason why same sex relations are dysfucntional.
Well I think you're being irrational. First you're stating that same sex relationships are disfunctional because they cannot procreate.
But then you're not applying the same thought to my heterosexual relationship.
Kindly stop addressing me in the way you do above - I am not getting confused about anything. I am simply disagreeing with the categories for discussion as you have set them.
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Myrrh: please, in future refrain from replying to anything I might write
Posts: 567 | Registered: May 2008
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