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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Their own worst enemies?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
This article is of course a tongue-in-cheek (won't say whose) spoof on the excesses of "gay pride" parades. But is there a subtle truth here as well? Do silly displays like the pride parades do more harm than good sometimes, in the minds of at least some of us breeders? Or is it just that people who would react negatively to this just were never really okay with gays to begin with?
I've heard that some gay people -- perhaps "leaders in the gay community" if there is such a thing, I don't know -- have said that it would be better for gay people as a whole if the parades were toned down.
I'd be especially interested in hearing what gay shipmembers think about this -- is it really an embarrassing excess that you want to distance yourself from? Or is it just a bit of fun and people who are offended by it should get a life?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Hmm. Two thoughts on this.
The first is that I think there is something of a 'letting the cork out of the bottle' phenomenon involved. Release of pent up pressure. It's precisely because public expression of other sexuality was (is?) repressed that it's liable to appear in a big display once it's finally allowed.
There is an argument that, over time, if expression of other sexuality is (or is continually) allowed, less of a need will be felt to have big gaudy parades.
The second thought is that the media is liable to make the parades a lot more over-the-top then they actually are. I've not personally participated in the Sydney Mardi Gras parade - and this is partly because I've been concerned about what it's like. BUT, I know several people who have marched, and they've told me that the groups with showy costumes or, um, almost no costume at all, are actually a minority of the marchers. But that's what the cameras point at, reinforcing the notion that this is what Mardi Gras is about. Meanwhile, the community groups marching along in jeans and t-shirts never make it to air.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
By odd coincidence I was just in the new York Pride march this past Sunday, marching with the New York Area Bisexual Network. Which, btw, I guess, is me coming out of the closet.
However, it was a great experience. And yeah, there's a lot of pretty wild stuff. But there's also plenty of pretty quiet, normal, everyday type people like me. Even though I was wearing pink hot pants with penguins on them. ;-)
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
Even though I was wearing pink hot pants with penguins on them. ;-)
PICTURES!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Hope you were serious about that mousethief,cause here it is:
Nicolemrw comes out of the closet as bi
The other side of the banner is held by a friend of mine, and my daughter and her boyfriend are visible under the lavender umbrella.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I am somewhat ambivalent on this issue, aware that some aspects of the gay pride parade are used by conservative Christians to highlight the debauchery of the gay community (Apparently no one has yet claimed that the antics of Mardi Gras represents the entire heterosexual community).
My guess is that North Americans generally are more uptight about sexuality than others. No one bats an eye at Veterans' Day parades which, some of my more Pacifist friends, would argue, celebrates militarism.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
Hope you were serious about that mousethief,cause here it is:
Nicolemrw comes out of the closet as bi
Fetching!
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
My guess is that North Americans generally are more uptight about sexuality than others. No one bats an eye at Veterans' Day parades which, some of my more Pacifist friends, would argue, celebrates militarism.
We (as a whole) are nonplussed by militarism -- it's part and parcel of the history of our country (and most other first-world countries I could mention). I don't know about Canadians but I'm sure USAians are more uptight about sexuality than most of western Europe, for example. But then, we didn't kill Turing. There's enough blame to go around.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
...Or is it just a bit of fun and people who are offended by it should get a life?
That about sums it up for me!
As for the article, it appears that Rita Skeeter is alive and well and living in LA.
I have had a lifetime of watching hets behave appallingly in public and nobody bats an eyelid so if some of my community behave a little outrageously on one day a year why all the fuss? I may not completely approve of some of the displays but in the light of the pressure that lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender folks face on a regular basis and in the light of the appalling behaviour of hetties I completely defend their right to behave as they do.
In Liverpool loads of straight students go to the gay clubs and some have said to me it is because the music is better, they have more fun and there is rarely any violence - that last in particular is more than can be said for most of the straight clubs around there.
Yup, the detractors need to get a life.
nicolemrw - love the hotpants and matching shoes!
p.s. where was the good Revd Freddy Phelps on the day?
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I am somewhat ambivalent on this issue, aware that some aspects of the gay pride parade are used by conservative Christians to highlight the debauchery of the gay community (Apparently no one has yet claimed that the antics of Mardi Gras represents the entire heterosexual community).
I'd echo that, but doesn't it work both ways, in that the antics of Con-Evo Christians are taken to be typical of Christians as a whole? Both are a part, maybe one is more typical than another. I wouldn't know as I'm neither Gay nor a Con-Evo.
quote:
My guess is that North Americans generally are more uptight about sexuality than others. No one bats an eye at Veterans' Day parades which, some of my more Pacifist friends, would argue, celebrates militarism.
I'd suggest, from this side of The Pond, that it's a matter of numbers. There probably aren't so many Con-Evo's in Britain but some a pretty strident. We have similar arguments about Remembrance Day parades.
I'd like the parades etc to carry on, but for the pro- and anti- camps to keep a sense of proportion. I fear we are stuck with a few who cannot.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Part of the problem is that the Christian call to holiness has sometimes been associated with a Victorian sense of morality. To be holy is to cover up, to be reserved and not flamboyant.
I would argue that the call to holiness ultimately means to be true to who God is calling one to be. Now for a go-go boy, that might mean, dancing shirtless on a float on a hot Toronto day. Who am I exactly to judge ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
Nicolemrw, nifty outfit!! ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
And congrats on the announcement.
Haven't been to one of the Pride events as yet. Plenty of friends who do, but they're big and noisy (er, the events, not my friends) so I find it all a bit overwhelming as a wee aspie. In my view, it's colourful, fun, and a chance to be ourselves without having to feel intimidated or worried.
Frankly if people are going to be negative about LGBT individuals, it doesn't matter whether we're dressed and acting like Queen Victoria or dressed in a rainbow bikini and acting like the Queen of the Catwalk, they're still going to find an excuse to hate us.
I'm off to find me some of those hotpants...
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I don't know enough about the topic to know if being flamboyant can cause people to hate gays, but I - and I'm sure many others - find people who act up camp (think Julian Clary) hugely entertaining - the flamboyance is all part of the enjoyment they give to those who watch.
I think for me, some of the excessive visual statements (flamboyance fallen over the edge into smut, perhaps?) give off an 'ick' factor, but I'd also feel that way if they were straight.
It may be a reaction to the knowledge that many gays are bullied - if they refuse to act the victim and turn the situation to their advantage by being out and proud they can overcome their victimhood as well as giving enjoyment to the crowds.
(And btw, nicolemrw, what are you doing wearing Smudgie's underpants??? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) )
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Thanks everyone for the support!
You know, it occurs to me that the only other recent occasion I've been too that was about as flamboyant, or even more so, than Pride, was the Coney Island Mermaid Parade, which I didn't actually attend, but the aftermath of which I happened to wander through (coincidentally the same day I bought the penguin shorts, at the NYC Aquarium, but that's besides the point.)
To judge by the people I saw wandering around afterward, the Mermaid Parade is just as gaudy, flashy, freaky and glitzy as Pride, and, in fact apparently even attended by the same counter-demonstrators... at least, I'm sure I saw the same black guy with a Jesus v Saves, Repent Your Sins vest both eating dinner at Nathans after the Mermaid Parade, and counter-demonstrating on a corner at Pride.
But the Mermaid Parade is not exclusively, or even primarily, a gay event. It's just a sort of NYC Mardi Gras (albeit at the wrong time of year).
All of which is a long winded way of saying that hets can be just as flamboyant and out there as gays.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
Well the group that was two groups in front of us at Pride was St Francis Xavier, which has participated in Pride for 15 years. They aren't allowed by the diocese to actually use their name in their banners or signs, but the Marshall at the reviewing both announced it, saying that it was proof that you could be gay and Catholic, and praising them. They got a real big cheer.
BTW, two of the churches that the route passes hand out water to the marchers as they pass, which i that heat is very much appreciated.
"When did I see you thirsty and give you water?"
"Gay Pride."
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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apostate630
Apprentice
# 15425
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Posted
I marched with Nicole at Gay Pride. I told her that I felt like an impostor, even unto wearing a "God Made Me Bi" sticker.
I'm a notorious heterosexual. But as a teen my peers assumed I was queer. I got bashed. Lots. And therefore for most of my life I've identified with LBGTs.
Felt good marching in that parade. Lots.
Posts: 46 | From: Ohio | Registered: Jan 2010
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
(he's the one who took the pic, too. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) )
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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apostate630
Apprentice
# 15425
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Posted
One more thing.
Two boyhood buddies of mine were gay. They, like thousands of young men from homophobic small towns, migrated to New York City.
In the early 80s, one was murdered. The other perished in the first cohort of AIDS victims.
During the Pride March, there were two Moments of Silence, for the victims of AIDS and homophobic violence.
All of 5th Avenue came to a halt, to utter silence.
And I bowed my head in remembrance of my boyhood friends.
Posts: 46 | From: Ohio | Registered: Jan 2010
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Personally, as a rather dowdy kind of lesbian, I honour those who make it so much easier for me. I don't have the chutzpah to wear spangles or ride a motorbike bare-chested, but because some lesbians and gay men do (and you can decide for yourselves who's doing spangles or bare chests), and do it with flair, they let the world see us queers unafraid.
I've been in pride parades, and its fun - I'm the very ordinary middle-aged woman in jeans and a jersey. Public statements make it that much easier to be out at work, and in other places.
So what if it is over-the-top and sexual - has anyone looked at what teenage girls are wearing at the moment? I was in Youth Court on Wednesday, and most of the girls appeared to be wearing their clothes painted on - certainly didn't leave a lot to the imagination.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I like the word chutzpah! Thanks Arabella for reminding me of it.
I reckon that some of the ire from the hetties is just envy at the exuberance of some of the participants - perhaps they think just having fun is sinful.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Clingford:
May I share this?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Thanks, Mr C.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
What an interesting idea, countering the protesters with an alternative view of Christianity. It's never occurred to me before that, when seeing rabidly conservative Christians demonstrating (or shouting out their views in a public place), many of us quietly walk by on the other side, saying nothing. And that this might give others the idea that we are in agreement with them.
A new interpretation of the Good Samaritan story, perhaps?
(Goes off to make an 'I'm a Christian and what this guy says is nuts' placard to parade next time the local loonie brigade take up residence in the town square..... Well I would if I was brave enough. Anyone care to give me moral support?)
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Clingford:
May I share this?
Thanks, Mr C.
The whole song/video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTN6Du3MCgI
Oddly enough, the phrase "nuclear war" is censored, but the rest of it isn't.
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Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
Posts: 1177 | From: Swinging on a hammock, chatting with Bokonon | Registered: Feb 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Personally, as a rather dowdy kind of lesbian, I honour those who make it so much easier for me. I don't have the chutzpah to wear spangles or ride a motorbike bare-chested, but because some lesbians and gay men do (and you can decide for yourselves who's doing spangles or bare chests), and do it with flair, they let the world see us queers unafraid.
I've been in pride parades, and its fun - I'm the very ordinary middle-aged woman in jeans and a jersey. Public statements make it that much easier to be out at work, and in other places.
I've always got the feeling that the whole "can't they just tone it down a little" thing is a milder version of "can't you just keep it in the closet". In other words, the privileged demand not to have anything you dislike impinge upon your delicate sensibilities.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
What an interesting idea, countering the protesters with an alternative view of Christianity. It's never occurred to me before that, when seeing rabidly conservative Christians demonstrating (or shouting out their views in a public place), many of us quietly walk by on the other side, saying nothing. And that this might give others the idea that we are in agreement with them.
A new interpretation of the Good Samaritan story, perhaps?
(Goes off to make an 'I'm a Christian and what this guy says is nuts' placard to parade next time the local loonie brigade take up residence in the town square..... Well I would if I was brave enough. Anyone care to give me moral support?)
I'd join.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Personally, as a rather dowdy kind of lesbian, I honour those who make it so much easier for me. I don't have the chutzpah to wear spangles or ride a motorbike bare-chested, but because some lesbians and gay men do (and you can decide for yourselves who's doing spangles or bare chests), and do it with flair, they let the world see us queers unafraid.
I've been in pride parades, and its fun - I'm the very ordinary middle-aged woman in jeans and a jersey. Public statements make it that much easier to be out at work, and in other places.
I've always got the feeling that the whole "can't they just tone it down a little" thing is a milder version of "can't you just keep it in the closet". In other words, the privileged demand not to have anything you dislike impinge upon your delicate sensibilities.
As someone who once (in anothet time and place) subscribed to the "pathology" theory of homosexuality, I think the OTT displays serve a very useful purpose. In making people like my former self extremely uncomfortable, OTT stuff helps makes ordinary, run-of-the-mill, garden-variety homosexual people and living easier to accept for those still struggling with attitude adjustment.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
What an interesting idea, countering the protesters with an alternative view of Christianity. It's never occurred to me before that, when seeing rabidly conservative Christians demonstrating (or shouting out their views in a public place), many of us quietly walk by on the other side, saying nothing. And that this might give others the idea that we are in agreement with them.
A new interpretation of the Good Samaritan story, perhaps?
(Goes off to make an 'I'm a Christian and what this guy says is nuts' placard to parade next time the local loonie brigade take up residence in the town square..... Well I would if I was brave enough. Anyone care to give me moral support?)
Christians at Pride
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
What an interesting idea, countering the protesters with an alternative view of Christianity. It's never occurred to me before that, when seeing rabidly conservative Christians demonstrating (or shouting out their views in a public place), many of us quietly walk by on the other side, saying nothing. And that this might give others the idea that we are in agreement with them.
A new interpretation of the Good Samaritan story, perhaps?
(Goes off to make an 'I'm a Christian and what this guy says is nuts' placard to parade next time the local loonie brigade take up residence in the town square..... Well I would if I was brave enough. Anyone care to give me moral support?)
I'll get me rainbow scarf and Union placard out, gladly.
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pjkirk:
Thanks, Mr C. The whole song/video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTN6Du3MCgI
Oddly enough, the phrase "nuclear war" is censored, but the rest of it isn't.
You'd be really really hard pressed to beat this version , methinks.
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
In other news, our brand-new Supreme Court has decreed that the Home Office isn't allowed to deport you if you face persecution for being gay in your home country. Sanity prevails.
Maybe there's hope...
Jane R
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
In other news, our brand-new Supreme Court has decreed that the Home Office isn't allowed to deport you if you face persecution for being gay in your home country. Sanity prevails.
Maybe there's hope...
Jane R
Hope indeed! That is brilliant news.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
My own view has long been that the sillier, more exhibitionist displays in Pride parades aren't helpful to our public image with many people. Or more specifically, the televised coverage of these displays aren't helpful. I like Pride, especially Toronto Pride, and I think Pride celebrations serve a useful function in terms of giving collective visibility to the gay community (besides being enjoyable for the participants), but I worry that bears in bottomless leather trousers, totally OTC drag queens, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, etc may indeed fuel the fires of conservative reaction, especially in a country like the USA.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
So, in case anyone is wondering just what a Gay Pride March is like, here is a link to a youtube video of this years NYC Pride. As an extra attraction, starting at about 0:35, you can see yours truly carrying half the Bi Alliance banner, as in the picture I posted. Shortly after that, the girl in the black bikini top under the lavender umbrella is my daughter, and the tall skinny dude in the white cap she's talking to is Apostate630. (and yes, he said it was OK to post and identify him)
Just before our group, if you look at signs, you'll catch St Francis Xavier not being able to use that name, but with lovely Christian banners about diversity and acceptance.
Gay Pride Vid
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
Thanks nicolemrw, I haven't been on a pride march in a long time - it was wonderful fun reliving it there.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
No problem, Welease. It was a lot of fun.
Come to NYC next June and join us, we'll show you a good time!
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
There is something to be said for inflaming conservative (read homophobic) sensibilities, by having an annual Pride march.
I well recall the early ones here in Sinny, and quite honestly, the vast majority of the non-gay community don't take a lot of notice of the Bare-arsed Bears, Dykes on bikes or the Safe Sex Sluts (upper case deliberate). Even the Reverend Fred Bile seems to have frothing at the mouth rather less these days especially as his effigy ( modelled on Jabba the Hutt) was paraded through the city 10 or so years back.
And after all, there is nothing like safety in numbers.
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
If they are homophobic, wouldn't the logical thing to do be to try to alleviate their fears rather than playing into the stereotype in the first place?
I thought the purpose was to gain acceptance in the quickest way possible. I didn't know it was to make a statement and upset people for the sake of it. People have a right to do that. It just ultimately does more harm to their cause than others.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
If they are homophobic, wouldn't the logical thing to do be to try to alleviate their fears rather than playing into the stereotype in the first place?
Trying to placate the fears of bigots is a suckers bet, the ultimate form of which is the closet.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
...I thought the purpose was to gain acceptance in the quickest way possible. I didn't know it was to make a statement and upset people for the sake of it. People have a right to do that. It just ultimately does more harm to their cause than others.
Several answers to that, I think:
From my perspective I don't see it as being about gaining acceptance, it is about celebrating who we are - sure it is in your face but why not? Straights are forever in OUR faces about everything but it is so common most folks don't even notice! I have always liked the Queer Nation slogan of
quote:
We're here, we're here, get used to it!
I am not asking anybody to grant me any sort of acceptance so I can tug my forelock and thank them for their generosity and they can feel good for being so liberal and so accepting of me. I am who I am and despite the bullying at school and the put-downs and the not getting jobs because of it and the being driven out of my church because of it and the other shit I happen to like myself and if other people don't like me or the fact that I do like myself despite all that shit then, frankly, they can sit on it and swivel because I have no time to spend justifying myself to a bunch of lame wankers!
The next point is that sending up the stereotypes can be a great way to show people how ridiculous all those stereotypes are. Sometimes people need to be upset, need to be challenged. I seem to remember that some guy called Jesus was pretty good at upsetting the status quo.
The whole thing grew out of the Stonewall Riots when a group of queers decided to fight back against police brutality and harrassment - asking hadn't got them anywhere! Read the history.
And now we celebrate! And it is brilliant and funny and outrageous and FUN!!
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
No, it isn't.
There is a big difference in staying in the closet and some of things people see at parades. Acceptance will come by showing people that gay couples really aren't all that different from heterosexual couples. Isn't that the point? It's about being able to openly love who you love and share your life with that person just like straight people?
Some on this thread seem to believe that people are more tolerant of heterosexuals if they do the things that are done at Gay Pride Parades. I don't think this is the case. They see them the same way. Only difference is they don't associate all straight people with the few they see at say Mardi Gras in New Orleans because they know other straight people who are different. They don't know other gay people. They never will if gay people either stay in the closet or if what they see of gay people is the stuff they see of Gay Pride Parades either in person or on television.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
What Croesos said, I'm afraid.
There are always intractable bigots.
Best in the face of the enemy than in the closet.
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Double-post alert:
And whatever you do, don't do as your enemy does.
I have in my time met militant gays ( usually men) who got their rocks off taunting women who were silly enough to walk though a gay enclave, especially that supremely soft target the "breeder".
I recall being sniggered at (loudly) by a couple of leather queens as I waddled across Taylor Square back in 1986 shortly before the birth of my last child. I turned around and reminded them politely that without the like of me there's be no nice boys to ogle. What I really felt like saying was that in a week or two i'd no longer look like a barrage balloon but they'd still be nasty queens.
Mind you that was in the early days of AIDS when in fact those who were nicest to the sufferers were in fact female (from the nuns at nearby St Vincent's hospital to those of us females on the shop floor, nurses and medicos alike.
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, it isn't.
There is a big difference in staying in the closet and some of things people see at parades. Acceptance will come by showing people that gay couples really aren't all that different from heterosexual couples. Isn't that the point? It's about being able to openly love who you love and share your life with that person just like straight people?
Some on this thread seem to believe that people are more tolerant of heterosexuals if they do the things that are done at Gay Pride Parades. I don't think this is the case. They see them the same way. Only difference is they don't associate all straight people with the few they see at say Mardi Gras in New Orleans because they know other straight people who are different. They don't know other gay people. They never will if gay people either stay in the closet or if what they see of gay people is the stuff they see of Gay Pride Parades either in person or on television.
But frightening the horses is what makes it all so funny and so much fun!
It is us celebrating us, it is bugger all to do with the prurient onlooker - they can think what they like and frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.*
- - - -
Ah well, as the old Harley Davidson advert used to say:
quote:
If I have to explain, you wouldn't understand.
- - - -
[*that's a nice line, perhaps I'll use it in a movie script one day]
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
...I thought the purpose was to gain acceptance in the quickest way possible. I didn't know it was to make a statement and upset people for the sake of it. People have a right to do that. It just ultimately does more harm to their cause than others.
Several answers to that, I think:
From my perspective I don't see it as being about gaining acceptance, it is about celebrating who we are - sure it is in your face but why not? Straights are forever in OUR faces about everything but it is so common most folks don't even notice! I have always liked the Queer Nation slogan of
quote:
We're here, we're here, get used to it!
I am not asking anybody to grant me any sort of acceptance so I can tug my forelock and thank them for their generosity and they can feel good for being so liberal and so accepting of me. I am who I am and despite the bullying at school and the put-downs and the not getting jobs because of it and the being driven out of my church because of it and the other shit I happen to like myself and if other people don't like me or the fact that I do like myself ...And now we celebrate! And it is brilliant and funny and outrageous and FUN!!
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Yup. I can go into any newsagent and see any number of magazines with half naked people on them, and open Page 3 of the Sun and find myself face to face with a pair of boobs, or indeed log on to one senior clergy's website and find a piccy of semi-clad individuals (!)...but if a gay person dares to bare anything in some fun way...in a clearly identified gay pride parade, it's an outrage and an incitement to hate?
Blimey, double standards or what...
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
As usual, Wodders has it in one...
As much as one can expect form the Ship's idle layabout, God bless him....
Dear God, I'll be sending him chocolate next!!
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
As usual, Wodders has it in one...
As much as one can expect form the Ship's idle layabout, God bless him....
Dear God, I'll be sending him chocolate next!!
Thank you.
Sadly I am quite drastically allergic to chocolate; however if you find any stray surfer types hanging around on Manly Beach looking lost then you could always send me one of those!
--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Jaysus, Wodders, Manly is the last place I'd be looking for to send you a birthday present; it is Tony Abbott country these days.
If you are so keen, check out Clontarf (a harbou raher than a surf beach) or Tamarama (otherwise Glamarama) just south of Bondi.
Lat time I was at Manly ( 2007) it was a 30 Centigrade Friday afternoon and it was hot and cold niquab-clad ladies (all freckle-faced converts, I suspect)
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, it isn't.
There is a big difference in staying in the closet and some of things people see at parades. Acceptance will come by showing people that gay couples really aren't all that different from heterosexual couples. Isn't that the point? It's about being able to openly love who you love and share your life with that person just like straight people?
Some on this thread seem to believe that people are more tolerant of heterosexuals if they do the things that are done at Gay Pride Parades. I don't think this is the case. They see them the same way. Only difference is they don't associate all straight people with the few they see at say Mardi Gras in New Orleans because they know other straight people who are different. They don't know other gay people. They never will if gay people either stay in the closet or if what they see of gay people is the stuff they see of Gay Pride Parades either in person or on television.
I tend to agree with this position, as reflected in my earlier post, even though I can see both sides of the coin and somewhat sympathise with both sides. I do think that my partner and I, who have been together these past 35 years, make a more effective "witness" to heterosexuals than do publically cavorting bottomless bears. Part of this is admittedly a personality thing with me. I'm a pretty reserved person generally and, for example, really don't like ostentacious displays of public affection between couples of whatever gender mix (usually it's heterosexuals who are the big exhibitionist offenders). My usual reactions are either "Get a room!" or "Your insecurity is pathetic"; maybe also "Thou dost protest too much". I don't appreciate noisy breeders and I don't like noisy queens either. I don't like all the noise. For God's sake, STFU! However, I also understand that dancing bears and dancing queens must feel they just gotta dance. I also agree that we can't placate the die-hard bigots. I find it a dilemma. There are some of the more freakish members of our community whom I frankly don't understand myself. That doesn't mean they don't have the right to express their bad taste in piercings, body hair, gesture and vesture. Is this "internalised homophobia" or identification with the aggressor? At this point in my life, I don't think so. My partner and I are completely out. Of course, I don't yell, scream and carry on in response to the footie or other sport either. OK, here endeth the rant.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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