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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Their own worst enemies?
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Well, as long as it makes you and your partner happy. If you and your partner have been together 35 years then you are at least the contemporary of the unashamedly pagan Sponsa and meself if not older.
They way I see it as an outsider and the (potential mother of gays)is "shove it down the bastards' necks" is the way to go; certainly it is the way I deal with those who see my "lifestyle" (FWIW) as a threatening alternative.
It is a;ways worth reflecting that all those "out-there" people ( whose agendas include Catholic Emancipation, Female Suffrage and gay rights) have actually made life a bit more comfortable for the likes of both you and me.
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Part of the problem is that the Christian call to holiness has sometimes been associated with a Victorian sense of morality. To be holy is to cover up, to be reserved and not flamboyant.
I would argue that the call to holiness ultimately means to be true to who God is calling one to be. Now for a go-go boy, that might mean, dancing shirtless on a float on a hot Toronto day. Who am I exactly to judge ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
King David did something rather similar!
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
And look what happened to Michal when she made her throughts plain....
What would a literalist make of that?
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
My own view has long been that the sillier, more exhibitionist displays in Pride parades aren't helpful to our public image with many people. Or more specifically, the televised coverage of these displays aren't helpful. I like Pride, especially Toronto Pride, and I think Pride celebrations serve a useful function in terms of giving collective visibility to the gay community (besides being enjoyable for the participants), but I worry that bears in bottomless leather trousers, totally OTC drag queens, the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, etc may indeed fuel the fires of conservative reaction, especially in a country like the USA.
NO! Don't say anything against the Sisters! They do God's work.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
So Pride shows, to those who want to see, that there is huge diversity in the gay community. Those who don't want to see will always see "us" as a uniform, unvariegated "them" - it's so much easier when we objectify people, isn't it?
Diversity is good and powerful and we should rejoice in it, both within the gay community and in the wider community.
364 days a year most gay folks live their lives according The Rules laid down by the wider society so one day a year they claim as their own and they let their hair down a bit and have a little street party.
As multipara says you need, we need, the flamboyant ones, the "out-there" ones, because they are the ones that fight for the change that the rest of us enjoy - don't forget that there were a lot of drag queens at the Stonewall Inn - it was them who screamed "Enough" and fought back. And don't forget that that fight is not yet won, we have moved forward but there is a heck of a long way to go.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
So Pride shows, to those who want to see, that there is huge diversity in the gay community. Those who don't want to see will always see "us" as a uniform, unvariegated "them" - it's so much easier when we objectify people, isn't it?
Diversity is good and powerful and we should rejoice in it, both within the gay community and in the wider community.
364 days a year most gay folks live their lives according The Rules laid down by the wider society so one day a year they claim as their own and they let their hair down a bit and have a little street party.
As multipara says you need, we need, the flamboyant ones, the "out-there" ones, because they are the ones that fight for the change that the rest of us enjoy - don't forget that there were a lot of drag queens at the Stonewall Inn - it was them who screamed "Enough" and fought back. And don't forget that that fight is not yet won, we have moved forward but there is a heck of a long way to go.
I couldn't agree more
I feel constanly different and choosing between working to 'fit in' or standing out, as I have ADHD - I would LOVE an ADHD Pride day!
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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ToujoursDan
Ship's prole
# 10578
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Posted
I don't know if you guys have noticed the trend but at the gay pride parades I've attended over the past decade or so (in NYC-Manhattan, Brooklyn, Toronto, Ottawa, Dallas) the number of straight people attending grows every year. Many of them are "traditional" families, some are older.
I don't think the feeling many are attending to point and laugh at the spectacle but because it is a place they can let their hair down without judgment. Some of my gay friends groan and complain that the yuppies and stroller people are just taking over like they do everywhere (their words not mine) but where else are you going to make friends and gain allies?
[ 20. July 2010, 14:11: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]
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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
While a bear, and indeed threw beads from our local leather-groups float, I saw no one bottomless at Pride this year a few weeks back.
wiggles ears
Yes, I'm back.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
While a bear, and indeed threw beads from our local leather-groups float, I saw no one bottomless at Pride this year a few weeks back.
wiggles ears
Yes, I'm back.
Welcome back. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
My daughter and her husband took part in this year's Toronto Pride Parade to carry a banner advertising an event at a local museum, since the event offered the chance to "show the flag" to many thousands of people who would never read the paper or otherwise see a minor ad.
Like most younger people, she has no problem with whatever relationship you have, so long as it doesn't involve cruelty or other mistreatment. She stood up as emcee for the wedding of a gay couple a year or two back. She and her husband had shared apartment space with that couple at one time.
But I have to agree with some earlier posters, in that such events are going to achieve more "integratedness" by becoming gradually more "multicultural", not in-your-face. People aren't going to bring the kids to an event that is too over-the-top; rather, they're more likely to want to come and see Jim&Bill or Aunt Sally being true to themselves in public.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
I hope they won't suddenly try to exclude those of us who don't fit into those more mainstream categories. That would be going backwards, not forwards.
Absolutely, as I said above the diversity in the GLBT Community is something amazing and something to be celebrated and I feel Pride shows that and rejoices in that.
Yes, it is our more outrageous brothers and sisters who are shown on the news and more power to them and their courage - if they weren't there would Pride get any news coverage at all?
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
While a bear, and indeed threw beads from our local leather-groups float, I saw no one bottomless at Pride this year a few weeks back.
wiggles ears
Yes, I'm back.
That's nice, Chast, but it has been the case at TO Prides I've attended in years past. We didn't go this year due to a scheduling conflict.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
DP bad.
To make a point. All over the western world perfectly respectable mostly middle class people dress in PVC, Leather, Fishnets, Corsets, and all sorts of other wonderful weirdness in a movement that really has its roots in glam. Inspired by a range of music from true Post-Punk origins through to metal and harsh electronic, and representing a huge range of sexualities and preferences.
Yes. Goths.
They are your next door neighbours.
Coming from that background I can't see a huge problem with what some folks do at pride. They are not mainstream, they have a touch of alternative culture about them.
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blog//twitter//
linkedin
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amber.
Ship's Aspiedestra
# 11142
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Posted
PVC? It's a slightly stretchy shiny plastic material...thinkof sort of artificial shiny leather!! Not that I'd know of course ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 5102 | From: Central South of England | Registered: Mar 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
Here you are Lamb Chopped - pretty much like the clerical wear on the other thread ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
The only place I've ever seen PVC in clothing is bra straps. Where else do people wear PVC clothing?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Here you are Lamb Chopped - pretty much like the clerical wear on the other thread
I can count on one hand the number of priests I know who could pull that off. I'm only counting female.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I minded to agree with Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras and Beeswax Altar on this one. London recently held its gay pride parade and the news from the Conservative Party on my Facebook news feed showed photos of LGBTory, the Conservatives' gay group, marching in London surrounded by other, every day people.
When I clicked on to the BBC News website, they had a 30 second or so clip of the gay pride march which featured a man in his pants and another man wearing some kind of bondage harness across his chest (the two men may have been attached to one another in some way, I forget now).
Having not attended the event, I can't get a first-hand impression but I'm sure the first set of photographs gave a truer reflection of the sort of people who were there than the footage on the BBC News website. But it seems to be case that the media will always report on the flamboyant and the exotic rather than the mundane. I think that probably causes more problems than its worth.
I suppose it goes back to a more a fundamental question of 'what does it mean to be gay?'. If being gay means having a flamboyant, extrovert, over-sexualised personality than that media portrayal is fine, but if being gay actually means being like everybody else except when it comes to who you share you bed with, then I think the message that Pride sends out (unwittingly or not) is counter-productive and is likely to build prejudice as much as knock it down.
I also have a bit of a problem with the name 'Pride'. If being gay is normal (which I think it is) I'm not sure how you can have particular pride in being gay, in the same way that you cannot really take pride in being straight, having blond hair, or long legs. I appreciate that lots of gay people just want to get together and have a good day out (which I think is what pride is for a lot of people) so I don't know why it doesn't become the Gay Mardi Gras or the Big Gay Out or some such. (Without wanting to create a Pond War, I suppose the need for a more political Gay Pride march might be greater in some parts of the United States than in other western countries).
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Here you are Lamb Chopped - pretty much like the clerical wear on the other thread
I can count on one hand the number of priests I know who could pull that off. I'm only counting female.
You know that many? Wow! any chance of some phone numbers?...
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I also have a bit of a problem with the name 'Pride'. If being gay is normal (which I think it is) I'm not sure how you can have particular pride in being gay, in the same way that you cannot really take pride in being straight, having blond hair, or long legs.
It's always been my take that in such things as Pride Parade, "pride" is being used as the opposite of "shame". They're saying they're tired of being made to feel ashamed for being gay. Far from feeling ashamed, we're going to feel the opposite -- pride! (Which I think is all to the good; don't get me wrong.)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Pride is almost a kind of gay Mardi Gras, too -- and straight (and other) folks show off all manner of skin and the like at that event.
I don't care for straight excess either.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Whenever I read heterosexuals criticize the "excesses" of gay pride, I remember an article by a queer theologian over whether or not heterosexuals had any right lecturing the queer community over sexual ethics.
While of course, if an action involves real harm, such as sexual violence or domestic abuse, everyone, gay or straight, should be concerned. However, it is easy making judgments against a community in which you are not a member of. I suppose that is the real issue of LGBT people whenever they are critized by heterosexuals. It's about "You don't know my story, you don't have to face my problems, therefore why the hell do you presume to tell me what to do."
Heterosexuals do not need to ask themselves "Should I put a picture of my partner at my office?" They do not need to wonder whether or not they can hold hands with their significant other for fear of being violently attacked. The reason is that in our society, heterosexuality is perceived as normal.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
I suppose it goes back to a more a fundamental question of 'what does it mean to be gay?'. If being gay means having a flamboyant, extrovert, over-sexualised personality than that media portrayal is fine, but if being gay actually means being like everybody else except when it comes to who you share you bed with, then I think the message that Pride sends out (unwittingly or not) is counter-productive and is likely to build prejudice as much as knock it down.
I disagree. That prejudice is already built. Events like Pride don't so much serve to counteract it, but rather demonstrate that even if gay people live up to the most outrageous stereotypes about themselves, society still refuses to collapse, God refuses to hand out smitings, and everyday life stubbornly continues. In other words, it's unrealistic to expect anti-gay bigotry to evaporate just because gays are just like everyone else (which will be dismissed as deception or exception), but the hateful can be made to feel like idiots when the predicted gay-pocalypse fails to arrive, despite the antics of Pride.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The reason is that in our society, heterosexuality is perceived as normal.
![[Confused]](confused.gif) what definition of 'normal' are you using where that is not the case?
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
As the famous catchphrase has it, heterosexuality isn't normal, it's just common.
(It would be lovely to think that "normal" is a nice neutral word that means only what it means in statistical analysis. Unfortunately, in a culture that tends to pathologise anything that deviates from "normal", it's anything but.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
(It would be lovely to think that "normal" is a nice neutral word that means only what it means in statistical analysis. Unfortunately, in a culture that tends to pathologise anything that deviates from "normal", it's anything but.)
I don't dispute that but surely AB was doing the same in reverse?
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The reason is that in our society, heterosexuality is perceived as normal.
what definition of 'normal' are you using where that is not the case?
As Adeodatus points out, "normal" in our society has taken on a moralistic connotation. It is our modern secular society's version of "righteousness". If you are not normal, you are perceived as wrong or out of step.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
So shouldn't the response to abuse be right use, rather than more abuse?
This seems to be the same strategy as the 10%. IMO this kind of strategy will win the battle but lose the war.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
So shouldn't the response to abuse be right use, rather than more abuse?
You've lost me as to where the abuse occurred. I didn't see AB make any criticism of heterosexuality. He just said it's seen as normal - with the implications that flow from that about not having to justify things where homosexuals do have to justify things.
[ 24. August 2010, 02:13: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
You've lost me as to where the abuse occurred. I didn't see AB make any criticism of heterosexuality. He just said it's seen as normal - with the implications that flow from that about not having to justify things where homosexuals do have to justify things.
Maybe I misunderstood AB, but I hardly think it was a massive leap from what he said:
quote:
They do not need to wonder whether or not they can hold hands with their significant other for fear of being violently attacked. The reason is that in our society, heterosexuality is perceived as normal.
ISTM he is laying blame at the feet of the assumption that heterosexuality is normal. Which seems strange to me since it is also a self-evident fact. Any question of morality is, of course, a completely different issue.
I remember doing a talk on 1 Corinthians 7 where I concluded that 'marriage is normal and singleness is good'. The temptation is to imply from one of those statements that either marriage or singleness is better than the other. This is not the case. But the answer is not to pretend that they are merely directly equivalent options.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
ISTM he is laying blame at the feet of the assumption that heterosexuality is normal. Which seems strange to me since it is also a self-evident fact.
And, as you illustrated yourself with your story about 1 Corinthians 7, that depends entirely what you mean by "normal". If you mean "relating to a certain part of the normal distribution curve", but someone listening to you hears "desirable" or even "mandatory", then you really shouldn't use the word at all: it's ambiguous and confusing.
The catchphrase I used - "heterosexuality isn't normal, it's just common" - wittily does the same thing. What does "common" mean? Does it mean "it happens a lot" or does it mean "vulgar"?
I guess it's okay to say "normal" and to believe - albeit mistakenly - that the person hearing you is a statistician. But once it's pointed out to you that they're not, and that they think you mean "desirable", then if you continue to use the word I'm going to suspect you want them to hear "desirable". And that's not on.
As to the whole business of Pride parades, I've always counted myself more queer than gay. I remember when Pride was a political march, when we walked down Whitehall with not-very-undercover police photographing the leaders of the march because we were "troublemakers". I remember particularly the electric atmosphere - just on the edge of the possibility of violence - the first year that AIDS really hit the media here (when actually we'd been living with the knowledge of it for 3 or 4 years). That was the year when MPs seriously considered interment for gay people. When sick or injured gay men were literally left dying in the gutter by ambulance crews who refused to help them. It was the year that my friend had his face slashed with a knife on his way home from work one night: his assailant said he "looked gay".
After all that, and especially since things have changed so much, I don't grudge Pride parades their flamboyance and outrageousness. But I am a little sad - and a little worried - that many of them have lost their political edge. There's still discrimination. There are still assaults and murders. There is still work to be done.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I disagree.
I disagree with your disagreement, but let me try to explain why.
quote:
That prejudice is already built.
Is it though? Attitudes to homosexuality will vary and at one end of the scale you'll have the out-and-out homophobes who will always detest homosexuality, no matter what is said or done. Those people are, I suppose, beyond help but I query how many of those people there are (particularly in today's day and age). Many, I would think, are either uninterested or disinterested in the whole thing. The uninteresteds, I would have thought, vary between those who are mildly pro-gay if provoked and those who are mildly anti-gay if provoked. I would have thought it was these that Pride events are designed to appeal to.
I love the Onion article referred to in the OP. One of the best lines in it, I think, is this:
quote:
"I have a cousin who's a gay, and he seemed like a decent enough guy to me," said Iowa City, IA, resident Russ Linder, in Los Angeles for a weekend sales seminar. "Now, thanks to this parade, I realize what a freak he's been all along. Gays are all sick, immoral perverts."
Russ Linder, of course, doesn't exist but I think people like him do, the uninterested pro-gays. Russ Linder has seen enough of gays to think that they're ok, but has those accepted views challenged by an outrageous Pride event.
quote:
Events like Pride don't so much serve to counteract it, but rather demonstrate that even if gay people live up to the most outrageous stereotypes about themselves, society still refuses to collapse, God refuses to hand out smitings, and everyday life stubbornly continues.
I would have thought that the out-and-out homophobe would think the world has ended and that society has collapsed when he sees half-naked Adonises writhing around in jello down his High Street. One might even say that such a portrayal plays into his hands.
quote:
In other words, it's unrealistic to expect anti-gay bigotry to evaporate just because gays are just like everyone else
If we discount the hardcore of nutters, why is it unrealistic? I'm sure that twenty years ago, the kind of social acceptance we today (in Britain at least) with openly gay pop stars, senior politicians, actors and so forth would have been unheard of, never mind the civic rights that they enjoy. And many of those openly gay pop stars, actors and politicians are just like all the other ones. They aren't outrageously gay.
quote:
(which will be dismissed as deception or exception),
Why on earth would it? One could say that the highly sexualised scenes at Pride events are the exception, given the hundreds of gay accountants called Colin and gay IT supporter workers called Nick in the world.
quote:
but the hateful can be made to feel like idiots when the predicted gay-pocalypse fails to arrive, despite the antics of Pride.
As with all Evangilbabies, if the apocalypse doesn't happen when they say it will, they just roll on to the next date (weren't we all supposed to die in 1914?).
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Could I have Colin's or Nick's phone number, please?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Might I also note that Pride is a party and many of those same shirtless dancers are probably only wearing those costumes for Pride. It is the same as Halloween. I don't wear my zombie costume to the office, but I do wear it on Halloween. The same applies to Pride.
Just because I'm in this character one day of year does not mean it completely describes my entire identity.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Could I have Colin's or Nick's phone number, please?
You want to date an accountant? Has life got that bad?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Could I have Colin's or Nick's phone number, please?
You want to date an accountant? Has life got that bad?
I write laws for a living, I'm not sure I can claim to leading an exciting and exotic lifestyle myself... maybe an accountant is the best I can hope for.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
In other words, it's unrealistic to expect anti-gay bigotry to evaporate just because gays are just like everyone else
I think ultimately that's how any bigotry is overcome. You work/eat/play/etc. beside people and realize they're a hell of a lot like you are, and then the reasons for your bigotry start to seem a little thin. But really it's a generational thing, I think. When your parents say "people-group X are all evil," and you rub elbows with people-group X all the time and can plainly see they aren't evil, then the generational bigotry begins to break down. This is why the vast majority of 20-somethings these days claim to have no problem at all with homosexuality. They just don't see it as mattering at all.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28
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Posted
quote:
I write laws for a living, I'm not sure I can claim to leading an exciting and exotic lifestyle myself... maybe an accountant is the best I can hope for. [Big Grin]
Try a librarian.
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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!
Posts: 11803 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001
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