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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Inerrancy and Christianity - uneasy bedfellows?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
This new thread here has been stimulated by this one in Purgatory.
Like many of us around here, I guess, some of my best friends are inerrantists. And the great majority of them are kindly, charitable, faithful, humble people, not at all given to beating others over the head with the Bible to make or prove a point. They give every evidence of loving God, and their neighbour as themselves.
But there are others for whom the inerrantist hermeneutic becomes a club. When that club gets flailed around, "Truth" (or a particular version of it) seems to overtakes Love.
A further consequence of this seems to be that "Truth" (or a particular inerrantist version of it) can get used to argue against Creeds, very generally accepted mainstream theology, and "things that Christians have generally believed". (You'll notice I've avoided the term Tradition!)
With that preamble, I thought it might be worth exploring in DH two particular questions, from the POV and experience of Shipmates.
1. The impact of inerrancy on mainstream Christian theology. Good, bad, indifferent?
2. The impact of inerrancy on relationships with others. Good, bad, indifferent?
I've discussed with DH Hosts and we've agreed to start the thread here (they haven't seen it BTW). But it may turn Purgish - or I guess it may be too general!
Anyway, here is your starter for 10!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Agreeing with Barnabas' preamble my comment on his two questions is Both Bad.
When it comes to theology inerrancy means that all further insights (and truths) are precluded since the "Truth" has been given once, for all. It effectively fossilises Truth and makes nonsense of Jesus' promise that the Holy Spirit will lead us into all truth".
(This does not stop inerrantists disagree vehemently amongst themselves as to whose interpretation of the inerrant text is right. In fact the gulf between them is sometimes as wide as that between them and ultra liberals.)
When it comes to relationships then Barnabas is right. Truth becomes more important than love; tolerance flies out of the window and becomes a kind of swear word. Relationships become adverserial.
Both bad.
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
1. The impact of inerrancy on mainstream Christian theology. Good, bad, indifferent?
Bad - because it stops people thinking for themselves and causes some crazy convoluted explanations for bigotry.
2. The impact of inerrancy on relationships with others. Good, bad, indifferent?
Bad - because attitudes and ideas get stuck in the past.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
When you replace the 'Word' (the creative, communicative principle of God incarnate) with the 'word' (language invented and recorded by men) you lose a lot. Jesus is the living Word of God, the double-edged sword. The fossilised text can, and often is, an idol for some Christians. It's put on a pedestal and treated as divine. When you place a book, however sacred, in front of the living God, it becomes more important what God said to people thousands of years ago, than what He is saying to us today.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
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Woodworm
Shipmate
# 13798
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Posted
I am in no way an inerrant-ist. In fact it makes me cringe.
But isn't this issue about the extent to which you can interpret scripture, update it, or leave it behind? About where you draw the line between "the bible says" and "the spirit leads me"? If you cut the tether of belief in Biblical inerrancy, don't you risk the balloon of faith floating off in pretty well any direction the winds might blow? This is something to struggle with.
So I wouldn't put inerrancy vs.not inerrant in terms of bad vs good. It is one of those tensions in Christianity that makes it so creative.
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NUH MUH! Nuh.. muh...
Posts: 137 | From: the ship's fo'sicle | Registered: Jun 2008
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
I don't want to be part of a huge pile-on here (much ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ), but I'd be interested in anyone who could explain how inerrantists come to the conclusion in the first place? It can't be from the bible, even 1 Tim 3:16 (the "other" 3:16!). Indeed, I would have thought that logic to be so self-evidently circular that the fact that it's regularly trotted out in this type of debate shows that they don't have any better arguments.
The other (perhaps more unspoken) one seems to be that God "must have" given us an infallible guide, or we could fall into error, which He would not permit. This makes me think two things:- It's code for "God must give me a way to be Absolutely Right about things." I can see that that would appeal to certain personality types (not mine!) that have little tolerance for uncertainty, and also to people who feel anxious and stressed (which certainly drives me towards a more black & white approach);
- The insistence that [something] is divinely protected against error is strongly reminiscent of the RC position - it's just that it's target is the bible rather than the RC church. Quite frankly, if you're going to go down this road I think the RCs have the stronger claim.
- Chris.
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Personally, I've had very little experience of "clubbing with the truth" in one-one or small group situations. But I've certainly heard it from the pulpit. Which made me wonder about the difference between what was taught as correct, how it was taught, and how people behaved. We get plenty of adversarial stuff on the matter in SoF, but this ci cyberspace, not RL. Perhaps others have different experiences? Maybe I've just been lucky?
I'm also thinking hard about woodworm's post. I thought that made a most interesting point.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
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Posted
As to the OP,
IMO bad for theology - I never thought I'd espouse an appreciation for old Catholic styles of teaching (i.e. top down), at least there is a strong tendency to try for rigorous analysis behind the theological pronouncements. Contrast this to a random non-denominational evo church making up their theology 'as they go' so to say. Some are careful, some dabble purely in eisegesis (and far more latter than former from my experiences). [This of course is taken from a relatively outsider's viewpoint]
This bad for theology is bad for Christianity as well, as I see it. At very least, the US-style of inerrancy and other baggage that goes with it is showing the great degree of anger, intolerance, and ignorance which girds the faith of Christians.
Bad for relationships - Well, there's a bit of a mixed bag here. To be inerrantist isn't to be a fundamentalist. The strong majority of American professed-Christians are inerrantist/literalist (by polls I put on the last page of the creation science/comfort to the enemy thread). That goes along w/ a huge degree of apathy as well, though.
I think that general zealotry, more than just inerrantist leanings, are a cause for relationship troubles.
quote:
Originally posted by Woodworm:
But isn't this issue about the extent to which you can interpret scripture, update it, or leave it behind? About where you draw the line between "the bible says" and "the spirit leads me"? If you cut the tether of belief in Biblical inerrancy, don't you risk the balloon of faith floating off in pretty well any direction the winds might blow? This is something to struggle with.
At the same time, the usual attachments to inerrancy ('plain reading' is right, etc) have cut the anchor for that ship too.
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Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
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RadicalWhig
Shipmate
# 13190
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
The insistence that [something] is divinely protected against error is strongly reminiscent of the RC position - it's just that it's target is the bible rather than the RC church.
Indeed. That's why the Bible was called the "Paper Pope" by radical reformers who thought that the Reformed appeal to the Bible was just as dangerous to freedom of conscience and true religion as the Catholics' appeal to the people.
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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I have another reason why inerrancy is bad for theology.
It stems from the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of manuscripts ( or fragments of manuscripts) available and the variations between them are of a similar order.
My copy of Novum Testamentum Graece has almost every page taken up with variant readings.
So which reading is inerrant?
The normal riposte is to say that "the original was inerrant".
By great good fortune we dont have a single original to hand.
So to constrain theological exposition not only to a selected variant reading but to a translation as well stretches credulity and honesty too far.
[ 10. December 2010, 16:52: Message edited by: shamwari ]
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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sanityman
Shipmate
# 11598
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
I have another reason why inerrancy is bad for theology.
It stems from the fact that there are thousands upon thousands of manuscripts ( or fragments of manuscripts) available and the variations between them are of a similar order.
My copy of Novum Testamentum Graece has almost every page taken up with variant readings.
So which reading is inerrant?
The normal riposte is to say that "the original was inerrant".
By great good fortune we dont have a single original to hand.
So to constrain theological exposition not only to a selected variant reading but to a translation as well stretches credulity and honesty too far.
Actually, the standard line taken appears to be this (interesting article, don't agree with all of it but the background is good): quote:
Johann Albrecht Bengel examined the 30,000 variants in detail, and added several more based on a dozen manuscripts that he had collated. But he also pronounced the now famous dictum that not one of these variants disturbs any article of the Christian faith. So, although it is true that there are places in the New Testament where the text is uncertain, this does not mean that those uncertainties affect cardinal truths or even more peripheral doctrines that Christians embraced.
(emphasis mine)
However, even given this, if you do believe in the bible alone as infallible source of truth, it must be a self-interpreting document. To me, it's obvious this isn't the case (primarily by examining the endless doctrinal variations, splits, anathemas and excommunications present in those protestant denominations which hold this to be true). It then goes back - as I believe mousethief said elsewhere - to infallibility being valueless without infallibility of interpretation. Otherwise, what exactly is the point?
- Chris.
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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
I am entirely with Sanityman and Mousethief and the points they made.
The "originals are inerrant" defence is modified in the link provided to the extent of saying that no cardinal doctrine is implicated in the variant readings.
I would have thought that the Virgin Birth would be considered by many to be a cardinal doctrine.
But an ancient group of mss ( is it the Old Syriac? memory deserts me) insists that Joseph was the father of Jesus. In a biological sense.
The fact that most translations opt for the majority and traditional text does not invalidate the existence of a variant text well accepted in parts of the Early Church.
[ 10. December 2010, 18:46: Message edited by: shamwari ]
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
As ever, cuddly old Gamaliel believes that 'the mileage varies' and that there are various degrees of inerrancy ... if that doesn't sound like an oxymoron.
But for all practical intents and purposes, I think it's true to say that all inerrantists are inerrantists but some more inerrantist than others.
Consequently, the effect on theology and the effect on relationships will vary according to the tightness to which its adherents hold to this premise ... and whether they follow it through to its logical conclusion. I would say that very few inerrantists do in practical terms - otherwise they wouldn't be able to function 'normally' (as it were) in day-to-day social relationships and as useful and valued members of society - which many of them undoubtedly are.
I hate to put things in those utilitarian terms but you know what I mean.
BHB strikes me as one of the most hardline inerrantists I've met for some time. Although there are people with these sort of rigid views in most evangelical congregrations of whatever denomination. I would also say that the RCs and the Orthodox have their equivalents - only over different issues.
Essentially, it's a fundamentalist mindset that misses out on nuance, allegory, poetry and often context. For instance, the fact that Jesus quotes from the OT scriptures extensively is taken to imply that he regarded those scriptures in the same way that contemporary inerrantists do - without taking into account the way First Century Jews actually treated or interpreted their scriptures.
I do become wary, though, when people say that inerrantists fossilise the scriptures so that they don't take on board later insights. I'd agree with this to some extent - insofar that I believe that we should engage responsibly with textual criticism, historical criticism etc etc ... but with an important caveat. These things can be transitory and subject to faddism. I would have thought that one did not need to be woodenly inerrantist to hold that the truths of scripture are timeless and relevant to all generations and we can't simply pick and choose what we want to retain and what we want to chuck overboard.
I suppose that's where Tradition comes in ... either Big T Tradition or the 'that believed everywhere and by all' stuff that Barnabas alludes to.
So, positively, inerrantists, however cack-handedly or misguidedly, are trying to preserve the Faith as they see it and one must surely commend them for their quest for truth and certainty. I certainly wouldn't criticise them for that.
Negatively, it can lead to the pitfalls others have listed here ... and a lot more besides. They can become trapped by their own circular logic and end up reading scripture through a prism or framework of their own making. I would include 'dispensationalism' as a framework of this kind - one imposed on top of the scriptures and through which lens dispensationalists read and interpret the scriptures rather than engaging with the text in a more holistic way.
Someone mentioned somewhere that cults and sects tend to be inerrantist in their approach. The JWs would be a paradigm example of this tendency.
Whilst I would not consider fundamentalist or inerrantist-leaning Christian groups as cults, I would suggest that many do share cultic tendencies. I know. I was in one once. And the effects of these upon relationships and one's ability to interact with the outside world is well known.
So - on balance, I would say that an inerrantist position is understandable and, to some extent commendable, insofar as it sincerely seeks to protect 'the faith once for all revealed to the saints' but misguided in terms of its methodology and effects.
That's my two happ'orth.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
The fact that most translations opt for the majority and traditional text does not invalidate the existence of a variant text well accepted in parts of the Early Church.
What evidence is there for this "well accepted"? And which texts are you referring to?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
The fact that most translations opt for the majority and traditional text does not invalidate the existence of a variant text well accepted in parts of the Early Church.
What evidence is there for this "well accepted"? And which texts are you referring to?
Was shamwari referring to specific alternative texts? That's not how I read the point.
I think the point was that just because one version is popular today, doesn't mean that a different version might not have been more popular at some other point in the past. To put it another way, perhaps there's a chance that the "traditional" or "majority" text changes to fit the fashions of the day.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Negatively, it can lead to the pitfalls others have listed here ... and a lot more besides. They can become trapped by their own circular logic and end up reading scripture through a prism or framework of their own making. I would include 'dispensationalism' as a framework of this kind - one imposed on top of the scriptures and through which lens dispensationalists read and interpret the scriptures rather than engaging with the text in a more holistic way.
One thing that intrigues me about futurist and historicist interpretation of Bible prophecy (such as that of Hal Lindsey for example) is that while the text of futurist Biblical prophecy is considered inerrant, the text and appearance of subsequent documents and other artefacts that the dispensationalists believe corroborate Biblical prophecy are not considered inerrant. And yet this point seems to be overlooked when weighing up their interpretation of Biblical prophecy.
It seems to me that whilst dispensationalists would never say that non-Biblical sources are inerrant, in practice, the belief in inerrancy of futurist Biblical prophecies is thought to confer authority on historical texts outside the Bible that are thought to corroborate Biblical prophecy. So inerrancy is not necessarily sola scriptura.
Perhaps there's a distinction to be made between inerrants who believe in futurism or historicism, and inerrants who believe in preterism or some other way of interpreting prophecy. If these are different types of inerrancy, then it's not unreasonable to suppose that they might have a different impact on theology and relationships.
[ 10. December 2010, 20:33: Message edited by: Jessie Phillips ]
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
I think the point was that just because one version is popular today, doesn't mean that a different version might not have been more popular at some other point in the past. To put it another way, perhaps there's a chance that the "traditional" or "majority" text changes to fit the fashions of the day.
One can make any kind of guess about what was done in the past but that doesn't make it so. I would like to know what evidence there is for this assertion. I assume it's not just the obvious but meaningless assertion that there are unimportant, miniscule errors of transmission?
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
The trouble with inerrancy (ok, one of them) is that it's a very easy mistake to go from thinking that the text is inerrant to thinking that one's interpretation of the text is inerrant.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Woodworm:
But isn't this issue about the extent to which you can interpret scripture, update it, or leave it behind? About where you draw the line between "the bible says" and "the spirit leads me"? If you cut the tether of belief in Biblical inerrancy, don't you risk the balloon of faith floating off in pretty well any direction the winds might blow? This is something to struggle with.
This really made me think long and hard and I offer some tentative thoughts based on my own experiences and reflection.
I think it may be possible to articulate a strong and satisfying doctrine of Scripture without the fundamentalist claim of inerrancy and its related theological baggage, much of which seems to me to be pretty incoherent.
I think I would go further and say that there may be such a thing as a distinctive evangelical theology, which has become confused and obscured by inerrancy. Reverence for scripture is miles away from belief that the only sound way of looking at it is via the inerrant hermeneutic.
I am inclined to think that inerrancy as currently articulated could be abandoned with remarkably little adjustment in the real and underlying pattern of evangelical belief and practice. My gut feel is that the doctrine is, in fact, despite claims to the contrary, more a product of philosophical assumptions than genuine and honest, and reverential study of scripture.
For the time being, I am inclined to agree with Woodworm that there is some creative tension in the current position, but those of us who still hold to an evangelical position have I think a responsibility to seek ways of putting our own house in order theologically. I see lots of promising strands, but not too much integration of these yet.
I guess I have been wrestling with this issue for over 25 years now. Evangelicalism was definitely the rock from which I was hewn, and I owe it much. But I don't like some of the company it keeps.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I think Woodworm's struggle is one the church needs to have. I think for some inerrancy provides just as much false security as the most flighty liberal Christianity.
Just because one claims a doctrine of inerrancy doesn't mean one has escaped enslavement to a cultural trend. My experience is that at least some inerrantists mask their culture predilection (say, a nostalgia for an idealized version of the 1950s) under a biblical veneer. Inerrancy, at least claimed as such, is no protection against weather-vane churches. People have tried to employ it to protect all kinds of peculiar institutions.
[ 10. December 2010, 21:10: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
The other (perhaps more unspoken) one seems to be that God "must have" given us an infallible guide, or we could fall into error, which He would not permit. This makes me think two things:- It's code for "God must give me a way to be Absolutely Right about things." I can see that that would appeal to certain personality types (not mine!) that have little tolerance for uncertainty, and also to people who feel anxious and stressed (which certainly drives me towards a more black & white approach);
[snip]
Speaking as somebody who really does not like uncertainty, for me one of the most challenging things about Christianity is that the two key commandments of "love God with all your heart, soul mind and strength" and "love your neighbour as yourself" are so open to interpretation. I can easily understand the attraction of more rule-based religions where exactly what you are expected to do is spelled out in great detail, but that is not what I have been called to.
I tell myself that life would be very much less interesting if every-one could agree on What Jesus Would Do in any and every situation.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I find myself in a slightly strange position in relation to this thread to be honest. Before I cam eon this ship I used to have what I would have described as a high tolerance level for those who held to innerancy and to some extent I would even have defended their corner. But my time on the ship has changed that.
I'm not sure if internet discussion has made me more impatient or less tolerant, but more that what I've seen here makes me believe more and more that it's just not viable. I've always been happy to talk to innerantists that I know, but I guess only to a certain level before the conversation stops or begins to get guarded for fear of insulting someone. One person told me at one stage I should be careful not to damage the faith of the weak, which struck me as being hugely insulting, condescending crap.
I used to believe that even innerantists would be capable of seeing the sacredness of scripture, the absolute, incredible beauty of it and the wondrous nature of how it echoes with human experience and understanding. But now I'm left doubting that from my ship experiences - it seems like there are some who treat scripture like a school text book.
I know that the accusation of the idolisation of scripture has been levied at certain people on the ship, but I had a rather odd experience a couple of days ago. I was reading a passage and then I went to set the Bible on the floor of my living room, but it didn't seem right. It's very hard to explain - but I couldn't do it. I'm not an innerantist, but something odd is certainly there that I find hard to explain.
So where is the line between my own feelings towards scripture and those of the innerantists? I sometimes wonder if it's a little like Wagner. I could of course take other examples - but this one I can relate to and it serves the purpose well. You either love it, can appreciate it from a distance or you hate it. However, in the love group there are those who love it for what it is - who see the faults, the mistakes, the problems; but they love it all the more for that and it adds to the peculiar beauty of a flawed art that hints at a little glimpse of the divine. There is another faction in the love group, who don't have a great understanding of music, who are almost militant in their defence of it's inflated greatness and thereby remove it's fragile beauty.
Right, sorry I'm stopping now cos I'm rambling
[ 10. December 2010, 23:12: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I think it's this damned "perspicuity" thing, fletcher. And it is a bit like appreciation of good music (I'm not a Wagner aficionado BTW). "Perspicuity" suggests that scripture is transparent in meaning, i.e. we don't need "special people" to make sense of it for us, we can do it ourselves! And you know, some of the time that is absolutely true. But the idea that it is true of all scripture, that one cannot be misled by being simplistic about it, is a kind of arrogance. There is mystery, there is depth, there is pain, there is pathos. There is an unfathomability about it, which should keep us humble. At best we know in part. And I think that is the reverence that gets destroyed by the jejune-ness of perspecuity.
Loved you post BTW. Rambling often leads us to good places.
[ 10. December 2010, 23:28: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Louise
Shipmate
# 30
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
the jejune-ness of perspecuity.
This is an excellent way of putting things. Insisting that things are perspicuous when they're not leads to the bulldozer effect: the people who are working with the complex, fascinating, difficult, layered and sometimes opaque reality must be attacked and swept out of the way of the One True Oversimplification.
The bulldozer attack doesn't stop with merely going after people with different approaches to scripture, you then get the collateral damage: scientists, historians and archaeologists all get attacked because false perspecuity is not compatible with the academic disciplines of those subjects. So people who are simply, say interested in untangling Egyptian dynastic chronology, suddenly find their profession getting slandered or charlatans in that field being lauded, and then to their bafflement find themselves labelled 'liberals' because academic study has not produced the results that the 'perspicuists' wish to hear. Whole professions of innocent hard-working people of integrity get slandered, and it ends up with Christianity being dismissed by many as something so batty and dishonest that it's not worth considering.
L.
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
the jejune-ness of perspecuity.
This is an excellent way of putting things. Insisting that things are perspicuous when they're not leads to the bulldozer effect: the people who are working with the complex, fascinating, difficult, layered and sometimes opaque reality must be attacked and swept out of the way of the One True Oversimplification.
To be fair that is never what perspicuity meant. The reformers thought that scripture was clear (1. You don't need an initiated inside track to understand it. 2. You could understand enough for faith in Christ.) but not that it was simple.
ISTM that you are comparing popularist evangelicalism with high brow liberalism.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
the jejune-ness of perspecuity.
This is an excellent way of putting things. Insisting that things are perspicuous when they're not leads to the bulldozer effect: the people who are working with the complex, fascinating, difficult, layered and sometimes opaque reality must be attacked and swept out of the way of the One True Oversimplification.
To be fair that is never what perspicuity meant. The reformers thought that scripture was clear (1. You don't need an initiated inside track to understand it. 2. You could understand enough for faith in Christ.) but not that it was simple.
ISTM that you are comparing popularist evangelicalism with high brow liberalism.
As someone who is somewhat initiated, and has, in his own way, developed a pretty high view of scripture (well said by fletcher christian) I find it kind of shocking that someone can say "Oh, it's so simple! You just sit down and read it!"
It sounds innocent, but while I think the RC Church had made a royal mess by being so guarded and serious about everything, I do have an appreciation for why they were very afraid of letting people just read it in their own homes. It's very easy to misread a few passages and get some really toxic ideas that have (IMO) nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ. Revelation is a beautiful piece of work, but history is littered with the bodies of people who misread it, and with their victims.
Having a community with some control is, in theory, supposed to restrain the worst of individual enthusiasms (to use a somewhat archaic form of the word) and keep the Christian reading of the Bible alive. Obviously, it can lead to flaws, but as you almost conceded, the popular mode can lead to its own kinds of madness and at the moment that's the one I see more often. Again, it's a fine line between the Bible that I read is Inerrant and I am Inerrant because I read My Bible. The latter is obviously a pathology of inerrantist understanding, but IME it's a common one.
In a certain, very very carefully worded sense I might be willing, with fear and trembling, to sign onto a precisely nuanced sense of inerrancy but I think those kinds of nuances and careful wordings get lost very quickly in the rough and tumble of reality. Hence, the hazard of popularist evangelicalism.
Is there a way to communicate inerrancy that can be inoculated against this projection problem?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Having a community with some control is, in theory, supposed to restrain the worst of individual enthusiasms (to use a somewhat archaic form of the word) and keep the Christian reading of the Bible alive. Obviously, it can lead to flaws, but as you almost conceded, the popular mode can lead to its own kinds of madness and at the moment that's the one I see more often. Again, it's a fine line between the Bible that I read is Inerrant and I am Inerrant because I read My Bible. The latter is obviously a pathology of inerrantist understanding, but IME it's a common one.
I did concede, not almost.
The very fact that we are both talking about a popular mode demonstrates that (generally) we are talking about a community and not individuals. (I do sometimes meet idiosyncratic individuals but I think you get them in all church traditions.) This 'popular evangelical' community gets its ideas from key leaders, writers, conferences, TV speakers.
So while I agree totally with your comments about the need for community controls I don't think that alone helps with this particular group. Like it or hate it the western world lives after the Reformation. We just have to deal with that. There is no 'one traditional, historic church'. If you don't like what the RC church teaches you can just join another church. Therefore, ISTM, all church communities, historic or popular, are largely self-selecting.
IMO arguments over inerrant vs infallible etc. are missing the point. It is commitment to scripture as the rule of faith which is the key.
(I'm using the RC church as an example simply because you raised it but I want to make it clear that I'm just trying to make a general point.) If we say that interpretation rests in the hands of the church then this is actually even more divisive. Sure lots of western Christians get on together but only in a 'don't ask, don't tell' sort of way. They have to, because when one person from one community talks to one from another they have two mutually incompatible authorities.
I'm still admitting that a high view of scripture can lead to similar divisions, but there is more hope for those with a high view of scripture.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
I don't think so, myself. Perspicuity,in common use, simply means clear and lucid. I'm quite happy to sign up to the proposition that scripture contains material which is clear and lucid, but that clear and lucid are not terms which can be applied to the whole of scripture.
There seems little doubt to me that the term was coined as part of a very proper "democratising" of scripture. It should be available to all, all should be free to read it, it contains "the lively oracles of God", folks will find illumination there. Given the significance of the term for Dissenters, I'm not going to depart from the goodness of that at all. I regard it as a good.
What I think is wrong is the seemingly inevitable conveyance of the supporting message that a full understanding of scripture may be obtained by applying a principle of perspicuity to all texts and all associated issues of doctrine and theology. Faith is not dependent on in depth understandings, that is for sure. It is when that faith becomes wedded to such a supporting message that great damage may be done. Folks become arrogant, certain, divisive. I may be expecting too much but I think the argumentativeness of protestantism (and certainly the Dissenting tradition within it) is also a source of much good. It encourages a proper pondering, a proper weighing. Encouraging folks to read the scriptures for themselves and ponder their meaning is excellent, provided that it is harnessed to both humility and a proper awareness of ones own limitations.
Personally, I don't mind the translation "God-breathed" for inspired. As long as it is wedded to the Isaianic "my thoughts are not your thoughts".
Reverence for scripture is not bible idolatry. Some to combine a reawakening of a proper respect for its depth and mystery, and our own limitations in coming to terms with its meaning. We can once again recognise the corporate, "loving with our minds - not just my mind" dimension of loving God.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
ETA "Some reform .." in the last paragraph.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Double-drat! xposted with Johnny S - I was commenting on Bullfrog's post, not your latest, Johnny.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Like it or hate it the western world lives after the Reformation. We just have to deal with that.
<snip>
I'm still admitting that a high view of scripture can lead to similar divisions, but there is more hope for those with a high view of scripture.
(I know this looks like a quadruple post but allowing for corrections it's only a double ..)
Yes ... and I do hope so!
There have been surveys done - and there are many exhortations about it as well - pointing out that bible-reading is in decline amongst evangelicals. They know they should - and most carry to church - but many do not.
I think this cross-connects here. Many folks have difficulty making sense of scripture and finding its relevance on their own, and if they get the impression they should be able to do that, they get guilty and secretive as well.
And that includes a lot of thoughtful folks who are inhibited from reading outside of what they believe is a zone of soundness. Often implied, rarely clearly stated.
Johnny, I really think we have a lot of work to do to ensure that those who have, or seek to have, a reverent and high view of scripture get the right kind of support in coming to terms with its meaning and complexities. And I am now sure that is not the perspicuous inerrantist path as currently portrayed (regardless of how nuanced the original reformers were).
If you should seek for an example of the dangers, look at the thread I linked in my OP.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
Through the serendipity of the HS, yesterday I accidentally happened upon this article by an evangelical Baptist, whilst looking for something else entirely. quote:
... each of these supposedly evangelical habits treat the Bible as something utterly distinct from who we really are. They are the idolatrous practices of a modern world bent upon using everything around as a "resource", and the Bible is no different. With such a worldview, Scripture is something external to us, and we pick it up and apply it in ways that turn it into a mere puppet, no matter how "sound" we might like to think we are.
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
There have been surveys done - and there are many exhortations about it as well - pointing out that bible-reading is in decline amongst evangelicals. They know they should - and most carry to church - but many do not.
I think this cross-connects here. Many folks have difficulty making sense of scripture and finding its relevance on their own, and if they get the impression they should be able to do that, they get guilty and secretive as well.
Beware the monocausal fallacy!
Have you got any evidence that bible-reading is declining among evangelicals at a different rate from everyone else?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Personal Bible Study and Reading is more overtly encouraged amongst evo's, n'est pas? At least that's my UK experience. Plus a significant number of one-one conversations with folks from a number of different churches. And the cumulative effect of working in youth ministries for over 20 years.
I appreciate the monocausal fallacy. But I think there is a connection. I don't need there to be a connection. In many ways, I hope there isn't.
But to judge from Qoheleth's post, I'm not the only one with an uneasy conscience about our "traditional" approaches to scripture. Can't prove it at all. I have an inkling!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Barnabas62 and Johnny S ... this is a fascinating thread and I've enjoyed both your posts here.
ISTM that a contemporary UK Baptist (and Australian Baptist, Johnny?) setting is a good one to work these things through insofar that the BU contains people with a wide range of perspectives, both inerrantists and those with a less fundamentalist approach.
I may have just struck lucky, but my experience of the BU has been that of a more nuanced form of evangelicalism that takes Biblical criticism seriously and yet retains a love and respect for the scriptures in a non-bibliolatrous way.
I daresay the same thing can be found in some CofE circles, but in my experience the evos within the CofE are so keen to demonstrate how evangelical they are that they can come across as stridently as some of the fundies from the 'independent sector.'
Equally, I would contend that those who take the kind of approach Barnabas is espousing will naturally find themselves in fruitful eirenic relationships with Christians from other traditions who share similar concerns - be they RC, Orthodox, Anglo-Catholic, Presbyterian or whatever else.
About a dozen years ago now, Andrew Walker (pentie turned Orthodox), Tom Smail (Church of Scotland) and Nigel Wright (Baptist) collaborated quite fruitfully, in my view, on theological discourse that occupied this very same 'middle-ground'.
Ok ... I'm fluffy and like to be moderate ... but it strikes me that this is where health is to be found. Neither in extreme wooden fundamentalism nor in an outrageously 'out-there' radical liberalism ... but somewhere comfortably between both poles.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I may have just struck lucky, but my experience of the BU has been that of a more nuanced form of evangelicalism that takes Biblical criticism seriously and yet retains a love and respect for the scriptures in a non-bibliolatrous way.
Yeah, good rule of thumb - just assume that the Baptists have got it right about everything and you won't go far wrong.
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Equally, I would contend that those who take the kind of approach Barnabas is espousing will naturally find themselves in fruitful eirenic relationships with Christians from other traditions who share similar concerns - be they RC, Orthodox, Anglo-Catholic, Presbyterian or whatever else.
About a dozen years ago now, Andrew Walker (pentie turned Orthodox), Tom Smail (Church of Scotland) and Nigel Wright (Baptist) collaborated quite fruitfully, in my view, on theological discourse that occupied this very same 'middle-ground'.
Thanks, Gamaliel, I'm interested in that discourse. Is that to be found in "Charismatic Renewal: The Search for a Theology, by Tom Smail, Andrew Walker and Nigel Wright (SPCK, 1994)"? Have you got it/read it?
I haven't read it. But it sounds like the unease has been given voice before. I tend to spot it in Brian McLaren's work as well.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
It still seems to me that there's a persistent assumption in this thread that inerrancy is monolithic. Barnabas62 speaks of "the inerrant hermaneutic" - to which I can only say, "which one?" Shamwari was right to point out that disagreements between inerrants do exist - and I for one suspect that the most significant source of disagreement among inerrants lies between different forms of historicist and futurist interpretation of prophecy.
Inerrants themselves would rarely admit that there's more than one kind of inerrancy. But that does not mean that all forms of inerrancy are equally good and/or bad for theology and relationships.
I think the belief that the Bible is inerrant, and the belief that ordinary people ought to be able to make sense of the Bible for themselves, are not necessarily one and the same thing - although I could be wrong on that.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I may have just struck lucky, but my experience of the BU has been that of a more nuanced form of evangelicalism that takes Biblical criticism seriously and yet retains a love and respect for the scriptures in a non-bibliolatrous way.
I daresay the same thing can be found in some CofE circles, but in my experience the evos within the CofE are so keen to demonstrate how evangelical they are that they can come across as stridently as some of the fundies from the 'independent sector.'
Interesting observation. Don't suppose you can point to any published sermons or articles from BU sources which, in your opinion, serve as evidence of this?
Like Johnny S, I too am sceptical of the idea that one denomination has got it more stitched up than any other, although I'm interested in more specific references to published material.
In particular, I'm sceptical of the idea that one form of "love and respect for the scriptures" is bibliolatrous, whereas another isn't.
I suspect that "bibliolatry" is often a straw man. It would not even be possible to accuse the inerrants that you disagree with of "bibliolatry" if there wasn't a certain amount of known fuzziness and vagueness in Judao-Christian tradition over what does, and does not, constitute "idolatry".
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
It still seems to me that there's a persistent assumption in this thread that inerrancy is monolithic. Barnabas62 speaks of "the inerrant hermaneutic" - to which I can only say, "which one?"
Shorthand, Jessie Phillips. You're quite right to point it out. And it's ceetainly true that folks from the "inerrancy family" of beliefs do disagree, and often split!
The essential definition I use is the central belief that the bible is without error. Some folks who believe that are also literalists. Other inerrantists are not at all literalists, quite happy to accept allegorical explanations which keep the texts harmonised. Some believe that the standard should be applied to the original documents and so are very happy with textual research and correction by reference to original documents. Some believe that God has protected translation from error as well. Some believe that inerrancy confirms the ancient Creeds of the church and are happy to see the Creeds work as a wise control over interpretation. "If your conclusions are not Trinitarian, you must have done your sums wrong". Some use it to attack the ancient Creeds of the church! "The Creeds are a product of Tradition, they are not God's Word". And that's just a part of the variation I know about!
So you get lots of variations around what I see as a core belief. A major thing which seems to me common to the great majority of them is a belief that texts can be harmonised together somehow. I suppose that is the one which gives me the biggest concern since enforced harmonisation stops you seeing what is there.
Another issue is the way in which faith becomes propositional, all about the meaning of words and not (as Qoheleth's most helpful post pointed out) a matter of encounter. The idea that scripture may work as one of the communication "nexuses" between God and ourselves, between the writers and ourselves, between our lives and their lives.
No analysis of inerrancy and its effects can avoid variety and complexity. In order to talk about it all, there is always some element of shorthanding.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Some folks who believe that are also literalists. Other inerrantists are not at all literalists, quite happy to accept allegorical explanations which keep the texts harmonised.
That's a bit of a straw man. I doubt you would find many self-defined literalists who think that before the Babylonian Captivity the trees in the Holy Land used to have hands that they could clap.
Reading the Bible literally means recognising that it says what it says. It does not mean that it says whatever a semi-literate reader might imagine it says from an out-of-context loan-translation of Hebrew or Greek into some other arbitrary language.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
quote:
It still seems to me that there's a persistent assumption in this thread that inerrancy is monolithic. Barnabas62 speaks of "the inerrant hermaneutic" - to which I can only say, "which one?"
I think all sides in this debate fall into the same trap. There are lots of posts that generally take a line of:
'Oh, you libruls who would throw out scripture/ignore it/pick and choose/use it as toilet paper.'
The difficulty is that we make a parody of the 'other side' and so the debate never actually gets anywhere and no level of understanding is ever achieved. It's very difficult to enter a debate or discussion about approaches to scripture when someone automatically presumes you have a disregard for it before they even ask you a question.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
That's a clear allegory there, ken. A literalist can take it allegorically, because that is its obvious literal meaning!
What I was thinking about is that there are inerrantists who are not Young Earth Creationists. They are happy to treat the days of creation (or some of them) as epochs. The harmonised truth of scripture can be "protected" by allowing for an allegorical explanation of the Creation story (or some early parts of it). It's a recognition by them that the great age of the earth and the universe is no longer "up for grabs". You can still have a literal Adam in this scheme, and a literal Fall. It's just that the scene-setting took a little longer (actually a heck of a lot longer!)
I don't think that's a strawman - the guiding principle is harmonisation, which can include treating allegorically scriptures which literalists would say must be taken literally!
Capiche?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What I was thinking about is that there are inerrantists who are not Young Earth Creationists.
I would put myself in that category.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
A few clarifications ...
No, I wasn't saying that the Baptists have got everything stitched up better than anyone else - just that the nature of the BU and the make-up of many Baptist congregations makes it, in my experience, a place where it is possible to have these kind of discussions and debates whereas other predominantly evangelical settings I've come across don't allow that luxury.
But I couldn't point to websites or publications ... apart from, perhaps, Nigel Wright's 'The Radical Evangelical' which some might prefer to call 'The liberal evangelical' ...
Yes Barnabas, that 'Charismatic Renewal' book was the one I was thinking of. It's somewhat out of date now - published in the mid-90s and then again just after the Toronto thing - but it's main thrust still holds, I think. It certainly kept me sane when I first came across it, although looking back now it doesn't seem as 'Oh brave new world!' as I took it to be at the time.
Probably shows how far I've shifted in that time. More to the theological left.
But I'm very orthodox on the creeds and so on. I'd like to think I'm pretty balanced all round, but that's for others to assess ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
A few clarifications ...
No, I wasn't saying that the Baptists have got everything stitched up better than anyone else...
I know that. I was joking.
You're such a literalist. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
[ 12. December 2010, 21:05: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I don't think that's a strawman - the guiding principle is harmonisation, which can include treating allegorically scriptures which literalists would say must be taken literally!
Umm, I'm not so sure.
Carrying on the example of creation - it is a question of what the text actually says. Even on a very late dating of Genesis the author / editor would not have had an abstract concept of time. A day is the time it takes for the sun to rise, set, and rise again. What is it supposed to mean that the sun was only created on the fourth day? From within the text there are plenty of reasons to question a YEC position.
ISTM there are two groups whose main aim is harmonisation - YECs and anti-inerrancists (who sole concern is to show that it is impossible to harmonise Genesis with modern scientific discovery).
Instead why can't we read Genesis 1-2 and listen to what the author /editor wants to say? That is a messy process at times but is the one position that is prepared to listen (to the text) more than speak (at the text).
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jumping in boots first, wooden literalist inerrancy is heterodox. Meaningless. Babylon. Whack. Psychotic. Always wedded to damnationism. Just more obviously than mandatory materialist liberal rationalism. Which is no less an uneasy bedfellow. And wedded to the other extreme of universalism.
And as Ken surprisingly said, I'm inerrantist when it comes to the primary, intended, obvious, conservative meaning accepting ALL genres, allegories, pragmatism, oracularity under the Aslan premiss that God ain't safe, but He's good.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Even on a very late dating of Genesis the author / editor would not have had an abstract concept of time.
Says who? What degree of abstraction is required? My (very minimal) understanding of Spanish is that they use manana to mean much more than 'tomorrow' but also some point in the future. I've also heard this is a pretty old practice and certainly not confined to the most educated among them. I think we also have examples of unexpected levels of abstraction from various stone-age tribes in jungles as well.
quote:
Instead why can't we read Genesis 1-2 and listen to what the author /editor wants to say?
Probably because it's very hard (understatement) to divorce what you expect them to say from what they are saying. Particularly since we don't necessarily know what they are saying, and they're not around to ask....
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Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pjkirk:
I think we also have examples of unexpected levels of abstraction from various stone-age tribes in jungles as well.
This is a bit of an tangent (because I think my main point that a day was measured by the sun still stands regardless) but I'm intrigued by this - how can you gather evidence of abstraction from the stone-age period?
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Given the tangent ...
Johnny, can we allow that the editor may be post-Exilic, and can we allow that he may have made use of collections of myths and sagas to create a "salvation history" to demonstrate that God will save His people? Included in which myths are two creation myths to explain how things all got started?
In short, can Genesis be inerrant, (making use of the current paradigm for inerrrancy which suits you), in that the editor's supposed actions ensure that the Bible does not err in its primary purposes here, of saying these crucial things.
God created the heavens and the earth
Man fell from grace through disobedience
God chose to save man through an obedient, faithful people.
Note I am not saying that the above view is the only one which can be taken of the process by which we have this book of the OT. Simply that such things are indeed believed by some Christians. I am asking the question whether such a view might be regarded as consistent with an inerrant view of scripture. And therefore be one which you would be happy to communicate, to a congregation, as a possible explanation of Genesis which good people of faith believe? I'm not asking whether you believe it!
Or is that kind of view of the intentions of the author/editor outside the scope of an inerrant view of scripture?
It's a thought experiment, if you like. It might also be thought of as a practical issue of ecumenism.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by pjkirk:
I think we also have examples of unexpected levels of abstraction from various stone-age tribes in jungles as well.
This is a bit of an tangent (because I think my main point that a day was measured by the sun still stands regardless) but I'm intrigued by this - how can you gather evidence of abstraction from the stone-age period?
We have modern-day native tribes in various portions of the amazon jungle which would allow some comparison.
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Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
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