|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Why do gay people want to get married?
|
Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
|
Posted
I attend a topical Sunday School class and next week we are discussing gay marriage at the behest of one of our members.
He said that he wants to discuss it because "I want to understand why gay people want to get married."
I'm skeptical as to whether or not he does actually want to understand why gay people want to get married. But since there is no one in our class who identifies as gay, I don't know how we are actually going to be able to address this issue.
So I was wondering if any gay person would be kind enough to write on the subject? Those who want to get married, those who don't want to get married, those who are married or in a civil partnership. Why do you or did you want to get married? Or why do you not want to get married?
[ 16. January 2011, 15:31: Message edited by: Seeker963 ]
--------------------
"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Seeker963:
I attend a topical Sunday School class and next week we are discussing gay marriage at the behest of one of our members.
He said that he wants to discuss it because "I want to understand why gay people want to get married."
I'm skeptical as to whether or not he does actually want to understand why gay people want to get married. But since there is no one in our class who identifies as gay, I don't know how we are actually going to be able to address this issue.
So I was wondering if any gay person would be kind enough to write on the subject? Those who want to get married, those who don't want to get married, those who are married or in a civil partnership. Why do you or did you want to get married? Or why do you not want to get married?
What a strange question! It is no different than a straight person wanted to get married. To find someone to love, cherish and honour and be loved in return. To grow old together, to set a home together and to be with each other in joy and sorrow.
--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
Like your Sunday school class, I'm not gay. I think you can get perfectly decent answers from your straight class, though, if you start by removing the word "gay" from the question.
The question then becomes, "Why do people want to get married?"
The hidden assumption in the original question is that there's some unstated difference between people who are gay and people who are straight which leads to different wants. IME, people tend to want pretty similar things.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
|
Posted
Why does anybody want to get married? Remove the child reason (in perhaps most cases, though definitely not all), and you have your answer.
The cultural expectation of marriage and all the joyous hopes attached to that apply just as strongly for gays/lesbians/etc as they do for straights.
--------------------
Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
Posts: 1177 | From: Swinging on a hammock, chatting with Bokonon | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Via Media
Shipmate
# 16087
|
Posted
Gay people want to get married because queers (and I don't intent to use the word in the derogatory sense) no longer want to be seen as queer: they want to be accepted by society as 'normal', like everybody else, instead of as a ghettoized element of society. Partaking in the institution of marriage (and having kids, etc.; participating in 'traditional' family life) is probably the most direct means of becoming enfranchised in this way, of validating their identity in the eyes of straight people.
--------------------
In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. Most of the time, eh?
Posts: 65 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
pjkirk
Shipmate
# 10997
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Via Media:
Gay people want to get married because queers (and I don't intent to use the word in the derogatory sense) no longer want to be seen as queer: they want to be accepted by society as 'normal', like everybody else, instead of as a ghettoized element of society. Partaking in the institution of marriage (and having kids, etc.; participating in 'traditional' family life) is probably the most direct means of becoming enfranchised in this way, of validating their identity in the eyes of straight people.
Good to know it's not because they fall in love and want to spend their life with somebody in a recognized commitment.
--------------------
Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)
Posts: 1177 | From: Swinging on a hammock, chatting with Bokonon | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amiyah
Shipmate
# 11989
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Via Media:
Gay people want to get married because queers (and I don't intent to use the word in the derogatory sense) no longer want to be seen as queer: they want to be accepted by society as 'normal', like everybody else, instead of as a ghettoized element of society. Partaking in the institution of marriage (and having kids, etc.; participating in 'traditional' family life) is probably the most direct means of becoming enfranchised in this way, of validating their identity in the eyes of straight people.
This is a really odd view of things. I am engaged to have a civil partnership with my girlfriend, in the summer. This is *nothing* to do with wanting to look normal to straight people, and everything to do with how much I love and want to commit myself to my girlfriend. We didn't have a conversation that went 'Darling, we've been together for a while now and I think it's time to take things to the next level and *really* show the next-door neighbours how normal we are'.
--------------------
Previously called MirrorMouse
Posts: 120 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
The hidden assumption in the original question is that there's some unstated difference between people who are gay and people who are straight which leads to different wants. IME, people tend to want pretty similar things.
Yes, I suspect there is an unstated assumption, but I don't have enough information right now to know what that assumption would be.
As we were leaving the room, he said "I mean what do they think marriage is anyway?" Which is probably the question I want to ask him next week.
But I did think that it would be interesting to get a variety of different viewpoints from folk here.
[ 16. January 2011, 19:08: Message edited by: Seeker963 ]
--------------------
"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Via Media:
Partaking in the institution of marriage (and having kids, etc.; participating in 'traditional' family life) is probably the most direct means of becoming enfranchised in this way, of validating their identity in the eyes of straight people.
Given that there are many reasons that a straight person may want to marry, I suspect the same is true for gay people.
And there may in fact be some gay people who want to get married in order to validate their identity in the eyes of straight people. But I would hesitate to say that is the only reason, or even the most common reason. In fact, it doesn't seem to me to be a likely reason at all. Based on the gay couples that I know, I'd guess that it's actually somewhere between pretty rare and nonexistent.
--------------------
I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Via Media
Shipmate
# 16087
|
Posted
Well, I think the sociological reason that I give is an unspoken truth of the new 'gay rights' movement generally, one that individual gay couples themselves typically wouldn't admit to, or even realize for that matter. And I'm not denying that lots of gay couples want to get married because they love one another, want to 'officially' commit, etc.
[ 16. January 2011, 19:50: Message edited by: Via Media ]
--------------------
In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. Most of the time, eh?
Posts: 65 | From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
|
Posted
Does it actually help if a bunch of straight people talk about this question?
I had visions of going to next week's Sunday School class with 20 heterosexual people conjecturing on "What those gay people over there want" and - for some of us in the room, I'm fairly certain - why the desire for marriage isn't legitimate for them although it is for us.
Personally I'm gonna give more weight to what gay people have to say for themselves.
--------------------
"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
I think the reasons people want a public acknowledged committment to each other are probably the same spectrum of reasons as everybody else. I think the reasons why marriage as opposed to civil partnership would likely spring from three main issues. Firstly, civil partnership lacks poetry as a phrase, secondly people resent the idea that their relationships are seen as lesser than marriage (and nobody buys separate but equal in this domain anymore than they do anywhere else), thirdly and most saliently to your context - those of us who see marriage as a religious act, the joining by God of two people, want to assert that as the nature of their committed relationship.
If your doing a session on the subject you could always ask them what they think would have happened if David and Jonathan had been culturally able to marry ? Would jealously, sucession etc have been such an issue ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
Seeker963: Maybe you could use the marriage service from your tradition as a resource. Have everyone read along with the vows: "love, honour, cherish, be faithful" etc. Ask if they think gay people are capable of mutual loving, honouring, cherishing, being faithful, etc.
If your service says something about procreation, you can discuss how strictly that's been honoured as a measure of the purpose of marriage.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
This has been well answered above. Don't know what the nature of your Sunday school is, what part of the world etc., but it is always good to talk.
An additional thing I'll add is that I think all of us want people to commit to relationships in responsible ways. Thus I, as a non-gay person, also want gay people to get married.
While saying this, I admit that my initial take was that they should call it something other than marriage, and it took me probly about 5 years to get over it.
And, I have no idea what the mind of God might be on any specific situation, but if we apply the foundation of the faith - Christian Love - the outcome is pretty obvious.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Via Media:
Well, I think the sociological reason that I give is an unspoken truth of the new 'gay rights' movement generally, one that individual gay couples themselves typically wouldn't admit to, or even realize for that matter. And I'm not denying that lots of gay couples want to get married because they love one another, want to 'officially' commit, etc.
'even realise for that matter'??!!
Yes, Stonewall and other such groups quietly brainwash us - they're a bit like the Borg Collective and LGBTQ folks have obviously been assimilated. Heaven forfend that it might be a conscious choice to want to love and honour one other in a committed and faithful relationship blessed by God. That might be just too radical a thought. Plus it might upset the horses.
--------------------
Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
teddybear
Shipmate
# 7842
|
Posted
My partner and I have been in a committed relationship for over three years and have been involved, on one level or another, going on eight years. Why do I want to marry him? Because I love him and want to share my life with him in the most intimate way possible. I also want to marry him to protect him if I should die. Sure, I can jump through all kinds of legal hoops to kinda sorta protect him, but anything I do legally could be undone legally as well.
Posts: 480 | From: Topeka, Kansas USA | Registered: Jul 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Apocalypso:
Like your Sunday school class, I'm not gay. I think you can get perfectly decent answers from your straight class, though, if you start by removing the word "gay" from the question.
The question then becomes, "Why do people want to get married?"
The hidden assumption in the original question is that there's some unstated difference between people who are gay and people who are straight which leads to different wants. IME, people tend to want pretty similar things.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
And that, my straight friends, is all you need to know.
But let me expand slightly anyway. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
When a child is growing up, he/she sees people getting married LONG before he/she figures out he/she is homosexual. Especially if that child is growing up in church circles.
The cultural norms, ideas and expectations I grew up with about finding the love of my life and marrying them didn't disappear just because I eventually figured out I was attracted to my own gender.
And homosexuals don't spring out of the womb fully sexualised any more than little heterosexuals do.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Via Media:
Well, I think the sociological reason that I give is an unspoken truth of the new 'gay rights' movement generally, one that individual gay couples themselves typically wouldn't admit to, or even realize for that matter. And I'm not denying that lots of gay couples want to get married because they love one another, want to 'officially' commit, etc.
Just out of curiosity, what qualifications do you have that enable you to plumb the depths of people you've never met who say they want something for some reason, to where you can tell they're either lying or self-deluded and really want it for some other reason?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
Well, to be honest, I never wanted to get married. I always said I didn't, from the time I was really young. But that is probably because there was no such thing as gay in those days, and I was thinking about heterosexual marriage.
I've been single for awhile, and haven't been in a relationship with anybody I wanted to marry for longer than that. So I can't speak as somebody for whom this is a pressing issue. And actually, I was still anti-marriage for a long time! Not anti-gay-marriage, just anti-marriage for me. I'm one of those who thought "you didn't need that piece of paper" - but I think really you do, in many ways. So now I'm not anti- anymore. Now I just need to meet somebody I want to marry and who wants to marry me.
I'm also one of those who don't care what you call it, as long as it's possible for gay people to have a legal partnership. But of course, it's just plain stupid to have two sets of laws that give identical rights - and marriage isn't really sacred in the public sphere, GW Bush notwithstanding.
But I wouldn't have a wedding; I'd just get the piece of paper (!) at City Hall. I'm really kind of a bohemian is why.
So as you can see, gay people can be just as confused and ambivalent about this topic as straight people....! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
(Sorry, just wanted to clarify. "No such thing as gay in those days." = "You couldn't live an open gay life in those days."
Hyperbole, that's all. I did know I was gay from the time I was about 8, but didn't know you could actually do anything about it. And actually you couldn't at that time....)
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Via Media:
Gay people want to get married because queers (and I don't intent to use the word in the derogatory sense) no longer want to be seen as queer: they want to be accepted by society as 'normal', like everybody else, instead of as a ghettoized element of society. Partaking in the institution of marriage (and having kids, etc.; participating in 'traditional' family life) is probably the most direct means of becoming enfranchised in this way, of validating their identity in the eyes of straight people.
This is the problem with seeing gay people as one great big unanimous bloc. The people who wanted to be seen as 'queer' tend to STILL want to be seen that way. And they're not the ones, by and large, who want to get married.
Despite what your later post seems to indicate you think, there isn't some vast underground gay HQ plotting and planning an official position. Some gays want to get married. Some gays want nothing to do with it and decry it as an institution that is both religious and hopelessly heterosexual.
These days of course, there are plenty of heterosexuals who aren't interested in marriage either. Now, why don't you try attributing their disinterest to their sexuality and see where THAT gets you?
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
These days of course, there are plenty of heterosexuals who aren't interested in marriage either. Now, why don't you try attributing their disinterest to their sexuality and see where THAT gets you?
--------------------
Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Well, to be honest, I never wanted to get married. I always said I didn't, from the time I was really young. But that is probably because there was no such thing as gay in those days, and I was thinking about heterosexual marriage.
I've been single for awhile, and haven't been in a relationship with anybody I wanted to marry for longer than that. So I can't speak as somebody for whom this is a pressing issue. And actually, I was still anti-marriage for a long time! Not anti-gay-marriage, just anti-marriage for me. I'm one of those who thought "you didn't need that piece of paper" - but I think really you do, in many ways. So now I'm not anti- anymore. Now I just need to meet somebody I want to marry and who wants to marry me.
I'm also one of those who don't care what you call it, as long as it's possible for gay people to have a legal partnership. But of course, it's just plain stupid to have two sets of laws that give identical rights - and marriage isn't really sacred in the public sphere, GW Bush notwithstanding.
But I wouldn't have a wedding; I'd just get the piece of paper (!) at City Hall. I'm really kind of a bohemian is why.
So as you can see, gay people can be just as confused and ambivalent about this topic as straight people....!
A lot of that is true for an awful lot of heterosexuals too.
[ 16. January 2011, 23:37: Message edited by: Spike ]
--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
(tongue firmly in cheek) Obviously, gays want to get married in order to rescue the institution of marriage from the group who have messed that idea up - the straights.
What with sex-for-recreation (but, since the pill, not procreation), sex before marriage, and high divorce rates, the straights aren't exactly showing the best example!
--------------------
It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
|
Posted
Just to add to this conversation that we have spent two weeks discussing heterosexual marriage, the history of marriage, societies which do not order child-rearing in the way that Western societies have traditionally done, the declining interest of heterosexuals in marriage, etc. etc.
The discussion was far-ranging and not at all confined to "we all have to get married because God said so and this is the best way to raise children".
This is actually a "new" church for me and one of the things I like about it is what goes on in this class. The class has demonstrated to me that this is a church where the lay people are not only well-informed, but they "allow" each other to ask hard theological questions and don't scream heretic when people start using their brains.
I'm hoping we will have a good conversation this coming Sunday.
I don't think that all heterosexual Christians are totally bigoted, brainwashed and unaware of what is going on in the world either. I wouldn't presume to speak for gay people, but I'd actually like to listen.
--------------------
"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
|
Posted
To undermine the tradition of marriage and bring down the modern nuclear family of course! Why else could someone want gay marriage?
Seriously, though, I'm bemused by this notion that motivations in gay or straight relationships are any different. I'm female and have been in a few serious relationships with women, and am now in a serious relationship with a man (my first). It's really not that different. I'm aware that in certain circles this change would be seen as me stepping away from a life of wild hedonistic sin towards something that could be blessed, and some people would assume that the relationships would be obviously different in every way. The fact is that I don't really notice any difference except in random moments like when I go to the ladies loos in a shopping centre and he has to wait outside.
[ 17. January 2011, 11:15: Message edited by: Liopleurodon ]
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
|
Posted
Oh yes, and the following exchange:
Him: We should go swimming together.
Me: Yeah! We could go to the women only session! That's always nice and quiet.
Him: Honey...
--------------------
Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
|
Posted
In (a tiny amount of) fairness to Via Media, I think VM may have been assuming a different question. VM appears to be addressing "Why do gay people want to get married instead of having a civil union or civil partnership?" In that case, some arguments about social acceptance and not wanting to feel "ghettoized" might apply. (Although I don't think I would have expressed it as VM did.)
Others are assuming a different question: "Why do gay people want to get married at all?" This is what I understood to be the question from the person mentioned in the OP.
Funny thing - sometimes this sort of question is based on the assumption of LGBTQ promiscuity, and to me has a kind of tone of envy. "Why would they want to get married when they can have all the sex they want without marriage? Lucky buggers."
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
anne
Shipmate
# 73
|
Posted
Not really my area of expertise here*, but I think that we seem to risk confusing the general and the personal.
There is a lot of difference between "Why would this group of people want to have equal legal marriage rights to this other group of people?" and "Why would I want to marry my very own darling snuggle-bum?"
One question may be approached with a certain amount of detachment, or at least calmly. The other is about our closest personal relationships, about people we love and it's not surprising that people feel very strongly about it.
For what little it's worth, my answer to the first question is "Why on earth wouldn't they?". To the second, I suppose I'd echo marriage ceremonies on Terry Pratchett's discworld: "Oh well, if you must."
anne
*not my area of expertise because the straight and gay communities have reached unanimity on one point. None of them are fighting for the right to marry me!
--------------------
‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
Not really my area of expertise here*, but I think that we seem to risk confusing the general and the personal.
There is a lot of difference between "Why would this group of people want to have equal legal marriage rights to this other group of people?" and "Why would I want to marry my very own darling snuggle-bum?"
The problem here is that groups of people don't want anything. Wanting is something that is done by people, not abstract clusters of people. Perhaps the dichotomy you want to make is, the difference between "why does this person want to marry her snuggle-bum" and "why does this person want every gay person to be able to marry their snuggle-bum" -- which phrasing goes a long way to answering the second question.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
anne
Shipmate
# 73
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The problem here is that groups of people don't want anything. Wanting is something that is done by people, not abstract clusters of people.
You are right, of course, but I hope that my (badly expressed) point still stands. Some of us are posting about a relatively abstract question, (set in a broad theological context,) some of us are posting about an intensely personal issue, (set in the context of our own individual relationships with other people and with God.)
anne
(hoping that I'm helping myself here, fearing that I'm not)
--------------------
‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
|
Posted
Having just got married in November, I can say that we got married for mostly reasons that I observe others want to be married:
- it's the cultural norm for couples who live in committed relationship
- it's a way of stating to family and friends that we are in this for good (we're past the "getting to know you and assessing whether the other is "the one" stage) and that we're officially off the market
- I like calling him my "husband"
- It provides a convenient handle for our kids (second marriage for both of us) to be able to talk about us -- related to the first point, really.
The question posed nearly treats same-sex couples as some kind of alien "other". We don't think about ourselves in that way. At least, I don't. Stability, fidelity, companionship, loving care -- they all enter into it.
How is that any different from the heterosexual variety? IME, not by a whit. I have the advantage of having been in a marriage relationship with a woman (27 years) so I have a basis for comparison.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:
I have the advantage of having been in a marriage relationship with a woman (27 years) so I have a basis for comparison.
You certainly spent some time setting up the control case ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Auntie Doris x
--------------------
"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anne:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The problem here is that groups of people don't want anything. Wanting is something that is done by people, not abstract clusters of people.
You are right, of course, but I hope that my (badly expressed) point still stands. Some of us are posting about a relatively abstract question, (set in a broad theological context,) some of us are posting about an intensely personal issue, (set in the context of our own individual relationships with other people and with God.)
anne
(hoping that I'm helping myself here, fearing that I'm not)
For any gay person, such questions are intensely personal whether we like it that way or not.
It's often the most distressing part of these topics, actually - that heterosexual people for whom this is a completely abstract intellectual exercise are so keen to affect my life.
And I don't even have a snugglebum to marry. I just know that, should I ever be fortunate enough to find the man of my dreams, I don't want extra hurdles in my way. It's hard enough to find the right person to spend your life with as it is!
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
Addendum: Just to clarify, I didn't mean that THIS thread was distressing. I was speaking in the more abstract general case.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Doris:
You certainly spent some time setting up the control case
We're both stubborn cusses. And I wanted to be sure.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Auntie Doris
Screen Goddess
# 9433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:
quote:
Originally posted by Auntie Doris:
You certainly spent some time setting up the control case
We're both stubborn cusses. And I wanted to be sure.
Indeed. (love you!!!)
Auntie Doris x
--------------------
"And you don't get to pronounce that I am not a Christian. Nope. Not in your remit nor power." - iGeek in response to a gay-hater :)
The life and times of a Guernsey cow
Posts: 6019 | From: The Rock at the Centre of the Universe | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
|
Posted
Thanks, everyone, for some great comments so far.
--------------------
"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
To be fair, there is a parallel question of 'Why do pressure groups want the right to gay marriage?' which is often going to be different from the question 'Why does this individual want the right to gay marriage?' At the collective level, there are people and groups who think it terms of demonstrations of equality, normality etc with respect to straight folk.
However, at the individual level I would echo others and say that such political considerations are rarely important - I think I might know a couple of couples where it could be a factor, but generally it comes down to much more old fashioned values of loving and cherishing, having and holding...
(I speak, incidentally, as a gay man who is a very happy and marriage-like relationship, even if we currently have no intention of buying into the institution).
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
|
Posted
Why would I want to get married when I get to have great sex, followed by dinner and/or a movie every Saturday night and do what I want to do the rest of the week? But if I ever did want more commitment – and who knows what will happen – I'd want to be able the have the legal protections straight people have. Call it what you will.
(I can remember in my 20s and 30s folks who didn't know I was gay saying 'You ought to get married. You ought to get married.' Then sometime in my 40s I started hearing 'You're so lucky you're not married. You're so lucky you're not married.')
--------------------
Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
Why do we want to get married? Call us sentimental, pious saps, but we want to affirm our love and commitment to one another in a public way, and have that affirmation blessed by a representative of the people of God. (Even if the people of God aren't all on board with it...which I'm sure they're not with more than one heterosexual marriage.;-))
Sadly, we want to do this despite the fact that it will have absolutely no impact on our status in the eyes of the law in this state -- the fact that we, unlike heterosexual married couples, have to protect one another legally in a very cumbersome, piecemeal manner that still does not guarantee the protections that heterosexual married couples take for granted. (For instance, I just discovered that my state requires a next-of-kin individual to release a non-legally-married person's body for burial/cremation -- at least as I understand it, I can't leave an advance directive that my partner have that right. (So if I die before she does, she is dependent on, say, my aunt or cousins, people I have NO dealings with, to release my remains for dealing with as I've directed.)
Am I bitter? Yes; I will not deny that...especially because the idiot legislators in my state not only will not entertain the idea of same-sex marriage or even civil union, but have actually inserted language in our state law that, unless overidden at some future date, takes those possibilities right off the board.
My partner and I are planning, at some date later this spring after she's recovered from an upcoming surgery, getting legally married in Ontario, which is only about a three hours' drive away. We've identified a number of churches willing to assist us. We are choosing this route, rather than some type of non-offiical relationship blessing partly because we don't want to get our pastor in trouble with our bishop, and partly because, frankly, we want to experience the dignity of having our relationship taken seriously by a sovereign state, even if it isn't our own.
Again -- yes, I'm bitter. I'm trying -- although no longer as hard as I used to -- to understand how making us go through a complex, circuitous, lawyer-laden, expensive and not entirely foolproof process in order to care for one another in a legal manner as best we can is "protecting" the rest of your marriages. Why does it apparently make many people in my state happy to think that, in the event of my death, my own partner can't take possession of my remains -- that she is dependent upon someone she's never met and someone I have no contact with other than an annual Christmas card, for that most intimate of duties?
That's just a rhetorical question, by the way. I don't think I want to hear an explanation of why God thinks this is a good idea or why this is all necessary to preserve the sanctity of you straight folks' covenanted relationships.
Oh...and I should mention that my partner is a disabled veteran whose pension benefits are not extended to me now, as they are to married partners of disabled veterans. And yet, despite all that -- we're formalizing our commitment as much as we can, even if it requires a stay in another country and even if our resulting marriage isn't recognized back home.
That's for the good Christians out there who've decided that same-sex marriage is all about finances and shared health benefits instead of about love and commitment and responsibility and the shared project of creating and nurturing a family. Oh, no...we couldn't possibly care about all that.
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
|
Posted
Thanks so much for that, LC
--------------------
"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
|
Posted
I waver from day to day between feeling positive about our plans -- "Here is our Christian and our civic witness, people -- maybe one day you'll respect it," and simply feeling reactive -- "You can wear us down but you can't defeat us."
I also wanted to mention that our state legislators are also of a mind to punish state-funded institutions that extend employee benefits to same-sex partners.
This anti-gay animus is promoted/funded heavily by the DeVos family of Amway fame, who are from the Grand Rapids area and have insinuated themselves deeply into state politics; also big players in California's Prop 8 referendum. So anyone who purchases their products helps finance this sort of thing.
--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I also wanted to mention that our state legislators are also of a mind to punish state-funded institutions that extend employee benefits to same-sex partners.
Morons. Not sure I'm allowed to say that in Dead Horses, but, anyway. Morons.
--------------------
"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
Well said, LutheranChik .
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
|
Posted
Question: do supporters of gay marriage see gay marriage as a sacrament?
--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
|
Posted
Of the three gay Christians to whom I'm particularly close (two men, one woman), two believe that gays can and should be able to have their marriages, in the Christian understanding of the word, solemnised in church. The other (one of the men) is adamant that two men/women cannot be married because the sacrament of marriage is that which exists between a man and a woman. Thus, he's entirely happy with civil partnership because it isn't marriage but does express the love, commitment, mutual support, etc., that exists between the couple.
Not sure if that adds anything but it might be of interest.
Thurible
--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
|
Posted
My partner and I were married on October 11th 2003 (with a couple of shipmates in attendance, which was lovely). We had a mass in the morning, with a more 'secular' ceremony and reception in the evening for over 180 guests. None of my family is at all religious, and we had a wide mix of people coming, so we wanted the whole event to be as inclusive as possible. We kept to the 'feel' of a traditional wedding, but used readings from Shakespeare and Dr. Seuss. We also borrowed a lot from Quaker traditions, including having a 'time of sharing' rather than any homily or reflection, and also having everyone who attended sign the wedding certificate as witnesses.
It had no legal recognition at all - we're also in Michigan, and did nothing to help my ability as a Brit to stay in America with the person I love. But it was something we knew that we wanted to do. We have exchanged vows in the presence of God and our friends and family, and I certainly believe that without the spiritual grace that came from that day, we would have found things a lot harder over the past seven years - so yes, I certainly think that what we celebrated was sacramental.
We did put some of our thoughts about why we were making this decision on our wedding website which I really do need to go back and finish updating, upload more photos, write more memories etc. But the bottom line is this: there is no other language apart from the language of marriage that expresses the love I have for Terry, the vows and commitments that we wanted to make to each other, the responsibility for loving and caring for each other that we were undertaking. And, as Jonathan Rauch points out, marriage is the only ceremony that we have which creates family and brings more people into relationship and kin than just the couple.
Besides, I just love the look on people's faces when I casually mention 'my wife'
--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Inanna
Ship's redhead
# 538
|
Posted
Missed the edit window ... but on re-reading I also wanted to add:
What I wrote was a description of why I wanted to marry Terry. There are also plenty of reasons why I continue to support and argue for the recognition of marriage at a federal/government level. There are all sorts of benefits that a couple gain when they marry which are denied to us. We have had to pay exhorbitant lawyers fees to try and ensure that we don't get hit with tax burdens after one of us dies, and that the estates can be transferred or distributed as necessary.
The big one for me is immigration rights. Any bi-national heterosexual couple who have known each other for 15 minutes can apply for a fiance visa to bring the foreign partner into the United States to work and live permanently. I have spent the past seven years battling to find ways to stay in the country, and cannot take living with my wife for granted. It has made us very grateful for each day we have together - and yet I would love to be able to relax and not have to worry that if I get sick, or my employer can no longer afford to keep me on, then our life together is at risk once more. Full marriage equality would change that (and before anyone asks, immigration is a federal benefit, so getting married in Massachusetts or Canada wouldn't help or change anything). So that's the other piece of my answer to the question of why marriage is important.
--------------------
All shall be well
And all shall be well
And all manner of things shall be well.
Posts: 1495 | From: Royal Oak, MI | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282
|
Posted
And Inanna's is one of the most important reasons to support legal marriage, I think. I know several couples in her situation, and they are continually stressed over whether or not the Dept. of Immigration is going to allow them to stay together.
You DO need that piece of paper, IOW.
Congrats on your marriage, Inanna - lovely website!
[ 19. January 2011, 13:51: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]
Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Thread closed
Printer-friendly view
