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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Why do Gays have to 'come out'?
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
Except that, for a certain class of people, same-sex orientation isn't about love and caring. It's about sex. And that's likely why they react so strongly.
I also say, "get over it". I do take (probably perverse) pleasure in correcting people who assume that because I wear a wedding band, I have a wife. I find the varying reactions fascinating.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
And, for many religionists, sex that is in any way different from their practise of it is way more interesting than love and caring.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lamentator
Apprentice
# 16278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamentator:
The rings you mention are more about commitment, in my book, than necessarily being a statement of sexuality.
I'd have thought people had to be very committed to risk being beaten up in the street for wearing a gay T shirt or whatever.
Not sure what you mean. I was saying that wearing a heterosexually-sexually-explicit t-shirt or other garment, say with a naked woman on it, would perhaps be a more valid comparison to wearing a 'gay badge' (as referred to by an earlier poster) rather than a comparison to conversations by people they assume to be heterosexual about their significant others.
Of interest is the fact that I havce just come back from having a pint (or four) with a gay friend of mine. I showed him this thread, and he agreed that he saw no value in showing any signs explicitly denoting his sexuality (read gay badges in the context of this thread), rather that he would talk about normal everyday things such as relationships, homelife, family, whatever, and that then people would figure out what they want - and that isn't what we all do????
[ 08. March 2011, 00:32: Message edited by: Lamentator ]
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Glory to God.
Posts: 11 | From: London, UK | Registered: Mar 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
I do actually see part of Lamentator's point. But in truth it was about a very particular expression of sexuality, and I don't think that the other 'expressions' of it, such as the one that prompted this thread to begin with, are quite the same.
It also doesn't pay to assume what this 'gay badge' looked like. There's a world of difference between wearing something with rainbow colours on it and, say, a picture of two naked men.
We also have to consider why there isn't a heterosexual equivalent of the rainbow colours. As is often the case, it's because heterosexual is the default. If you want to identify yourself as a heterosexual, you don't really HAVE to do anything. In most contexts, it will be conveniently assumed for you.
[ 08. March 2011, 01:07: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
People do assume. I think I look like your average middle-aged stereotypical lesbian - short hair, jeans, sensible shoes, no make-up.
I'm currently working with two sets of parents (I'm a family therapist) who are quite sure I have a husband. Because of their religious beliefs I can't set them right without destroying the working relationship. Their beliefs on homosexuality were made very plain to me at the first meeting in both cases (such an issue for them that they bring it up without it even being one of the struggles they've been referred for).
It is intensely irritating and upsetting to be in the situation of having to refer to one's life partner as "he" when this is not true. It feels like betrayal of my own relationship.
Not only that, but should they happen to see me in the street with my partner (unlikely, fortunately) that's that for the working relationship.
It would be so much easier if it was possible to wear a badge, but I'm not in the job to impose my will on others. But it upsets me. My team know this and they are wonderfully supportive. Sadly for me, I'm the only member of the team who will accept ultra-religious clients, so I guess I'm setting myself up in some ways. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
Their beliefs on homosexuality were made very plain to me at the first meeting in both cases (such an issue for them that they bring it up without it even being one of the struggles they've been referred for).
In the context of this thread, it genuinely seems worth asking why people with anti-homosexual views feel the need to 'come out' like this.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
quote:
I think I look like your average middle-aged stereotypical lesbian - short hair, jeans, sensible shoes, no make-up.
I thought this was just stereotypical of a woman who is more interested in being comfortable than looking attractive. You just described me and most of the other middle-aged married women I know (when they're not expected to dress up for the office).
Of course, we might all be closet lesbians ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) I wouldn't know; if gaydar does exist I don't have it...
Jane R
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom:
People do assume. I think I look like your average middle-aged stereotypical lesbian - short hair, jeans, sensible shoes, no make-up.
I'm currently working with two sets of parents (I'm a family therapist) who are quite sure I have a husband. Because of their religious beliefs I can't set them right without destroying the working relationship. Their beliefs on homosexuality were made very plain to me at the first meeting in both cases (such an issue for them that they bring it up without it even being one of the struggles they've been referred for).
It is intensely irritating and upsetting to be in the situation of having to refer to one's life partner as "he" when this is not true. It feels like betrayal of my own relationship.
Not only that, but should they happen to see me in the street with my partner (unlikely, fortunately) that's that for the working relationship.
It would be so much easier if it was possible to wear a badge, but I'm not in the job to impose my will on others. But it upsets me. My team know this and they are wonderfully supportive. Sadly for me, I'm the only member of the team who will accept ultra-religious clients, so I guess I'm setting myself up in some ways.
Just want to say thank you for your very honest and moving post Arabella. A demonstration of grace in the face of ungraciousness.
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
In the context of this thread, it genuinely seems worth asking why people with anti-homosexual views feel the need to 'come out' like this.
Sounds like this to me.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
Perhaps a better question is why some feel the need to push gay people in the closet. After all, if they weren't pushed in they wouldn't (and couldn't) come out, surely?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
All gay Christians should be in the closet, at least part of the time. Jesus said so.
Matthew 6:6
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
All gay Christians should be in the closet, at least part of the time. Jesus said so.
Matthew 6:6
Is it okay to turn it into an absolutely fabulous, glitzy closet? Or does it have to stay plain and dowdy?
Not that I have that kind of flair myself, you understand. But some of my friends might be happier about this if they're allowed to personalise their closet a little.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
Glitzy is fine as long as it also plays 'I am what I am' on a non-stop loop for added emphasis ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Haydee:
Glitzy is fine as long as it also plays 'I am what I am' on a non-stop loop for added emphasis
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
The members of my family who are gay get over the 'straight assumption' thing by talking openly and naturally about their partners, folk they fancy etc - just as I do . Most people who 'didn't know' are polite enough to have their assumptions overturned without comment.
If there were no such thing as homophobia this wouldn't be an issue at all.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Haydee
Shipmate
# 14734
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Posted
So do my gay housemates, but they enjoy laughing at stereotypes by playing up to them as well...
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The only people we aren't out to are our Amish friends. I'm not sure they would be able to process our relationship, with their worldview.
What they do know about us is that we're friends who don't have husbands and who live together (which is true; would that all marriage partners were!), that I'm a commissioned lay minister (which, interestingly, seems to give me some street cred with them even though I'm female), and that we're kind to and respectful of them. And that's enough, I think.
But it's one thing to make an effort not to cause offense with one small group within our constellation of friends, and another to spend our lives completely in the closet. Been there, done that, ain't goin' back.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
All gay Christians should be in the closet, at least part of the time. Jesus said so.
Matthew 6:6
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Is it okay to turn it into an absolutely fabulous, glitzy closet? Or does it have to stay plain and dowdy?
Ikons, candles, aromatics and some fabulous shiny and brocaded fabrics are de rigueur for my prayer closet.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Now I'm worried about you. Keep those brocaded fabrics away from the candles, ok?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Orfeo is answering the question.
Indeed I am. Didn't even realise it to be honest, in the sense of the link between threads.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
Glad you did, Orfeo... replaces an 'issue' to be debated in the abstract with a living, breathing, feeling human being. Hugely important to fight the dehumanising process and rehumanise it.
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Almost all of us come out sexually at some stage or other. Your weekend in Sydney seems to have been your real coming out Orfeo, and we wish you well.
For the vast majority of the population, coming out is not a problem. Instead of going out with your mates or a group, you tell your parents your going out with a girl; no great dramas. For GLBTs, there are very real problems - how to tell parents and family (I can imagine that telling grandparents may be very hard indeed), coupled with the physical risks of public displays of emotion. As others have noted, it's one thing for a boy and a girl to sit on a park bench, or walk down the street hand in hand. Gays doing exactly the same may very well be bashed.
Madame and I used belong to the school of accepting gays as friends and fellow congregants, but being annoyed by the "love which won't shut up". We thought that time would see an increase in tolerance and a diminution in the violence all too common. Over the years, we have changed, the final point being the harshness of the Uganda laws (and yes, we do know the cultural history behind those) followed by the vicious murder of the activist. The nastiness of the Phelpses helped our journey.
For these reasons, the public coming out by sportsmen and other public figures is essential. It demonstrates very clearly that sexual preference is just that; and not a threat to the community or others. Rather, their coming out provides support - such as the younger brother of one of Dlet's mates, who came out last year. He found it easy and is well accepted at school having done so.
Hope this does not sound patronising. It's not meant to.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Doesn't sound at all patronising. Thank you for that.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
Orfeo is answering the question.
Indeed I am. Didn't even realise it to be honest, in the sense of the link between threads.
Most eloquently, too. I feel the same way.
In a major sense, I was too busy trying to be the best little boy in the world (cf. an alleged autobiography of the era which, while spurious in certain details, beautifully captured the essence of a closet for a kid) to have an adolescence until my late 20s. Suddenly there was no more closet because I had been outed. While I wouldn't have missed this phase for anything, playing catchup so belatedly can be a bit undignified as well as less than promising emotionally.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
I'm beginning to wonder if the experience that gays go through when they "come out" is in any way like the experience of anyone else who is considering making something potentially embarrassing about themselves known.
I'm absolutely not saying that being gay is something you should be embarrassed about; what I am saying is that it is something that people are embarrassed about. A gay person who is lacking in confidence and self-esteem is therefore less likely to come out than a gay person who is more self-assured.
Some might retort to that by saying that gays face violence. Well - yeah - but then again, people who support the wrong football team face violence too. But a person who's been to one or two self-defence or martial arts classes is more likely to be able to face that off than someone who hasn't. I know from my own experience that you certainly don't have to be out as gay in order to be bullied on the pretext of you being gay.
And playground competitiveness being what it is, I suspect that there are a lot of people who get called "gay" simply because they don't measure up on some arbitrary yardstick - such as athletic performance, perhaps. I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of those people wonder whether or not it would get any worse if they came out as gay. Even if they aren't actually gay.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
The post above seems to be saying that being gay is no harder than being different in any number of ways. If so, it shows a fundamental ignorance of the dynamics involved.
The Velvet Rage: Overcoming the Pain of Growing Up Gay in a Straight Man's World is a book by psychotherapist Alan Down. He insists that being gay is a unique experience and that no other minority group comes close. He talks of the dynamic of parenthood and how gay boys are felt to be 'different' from very early on, without knowing why.
At puberty, they cannot go on dates and have their sexuality validated - instead, they either go on sham dates - sometimes leading to sham marriages, or they develop a furtive, closeted sex life.
Later, they seek validation from being the best at their jobs, perhaps from sexual addiction but above all by splitting off 'real life'.
Coming out, thus, is vitally important to health.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
Truth-telling is powerful.
When I first came out it was with trepidation. But with 30 years of suppressing, once I determined to be out, the dam rather burst. There's a tipping point where you realize that it feels good to tell the truth and damn the social expectations.
It's freeing to no longer be afraid that someone will discover the "big, dark, secret". You get to a point where you don't care who knows and telling the truth feels refreshing and good and healing and wholesome.
Coming out is walking OUT of and away from shame (and embarrassment).
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The irony, of course, is that in the background there are a certain group of people not only hoping for but in some cases actually praying for negativity to enter our lives, so that we might have that metanoia moment that cures us of our "affliction."
I've had conversations elsewhere on the Internet with Christians who are all about praying for "hedges" to thwart perceived evildoers' bad intentions and fail/frustrate them into an appreciation of their sin. And gay folks are certainly included in their definition of people who need to be "hedged" by good Christians' black mag- -- I mean fervent prayer.
Friendly lot.
[ 25. March 2011, 11:23: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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joan knox
Knoxy is my homeboy
# 16100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
The irony, of course, is that in the background there are a certain group of people not only hoping for but in some cases actually praying for negativity to enter our lives, so that we might have that metanoia moment that cures us of our "affliction."
I've had conversations elsewhere on the Internet with Christians who are all about praying for "hedges" to thwart perceived evildoers' bad intentions and fail/frustrate them into an appreciation of their sin. And gay folks are certainly included in their definition of people who need to be "hedged" by good Christians' black mag- -- I mean fervent prayer.
Friendly lot.
Ah, years ago, when my sister attended church, she decided to get the whole congregation praying for my healing. When she told me about this, I smiled and thanked her and noted I'd never felt better... she looked a little disappointed ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Jesus saves, Allah protects, Buddha enlightens, Cthulhu thinks you'll make a nice sandwich
Posts: 906 | From: edinburgh | Registered: Dec 2010
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by joan knox:
Ah, years ago, when my sister attended church, she decided to get the whole congregation praying for my healing. When she told me about this, I smiled and thanked her and noted I'd never felt better... she looked a little disappointed
How would "that explains it then - I'm finally getting those multiple orgasms" have gone down?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Hey, don't knock it. Going to a group that was trying to 'cure' me for 2 years was actually vital to my coming out process, because it enabled me to talk about my feelings without staring resolutely at the ground and bursting into tears.
I'm sure they didn't quite anticipate the end result, but God did good things with those lovely, caring, totally misguided people.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Hey, don't knock it. Going to a group that was trying to 'cure' me for 2 years was actually vital to my coming out process, because it enabled me to talk about my feelings without staring resolutely at the ground and bursting into tears.
Interesting. Do you think it would be possible to replicate that process for young, gay people without the whole 'it's a sin' thing?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Hey, don't knock it. Going to a group that was trying to 'cure' me for 2 years was actually vital to my coming out process, because it enabled me to talk about my feelings without staring resolutely at the ground and bursting into tears.
Interesting. Do you think it would be possible to replicate that process for young, gay people without the whole 'it's a sin' thing?
If it wasn't the for the whole 'it's a sin' thing, I wouldn't have been bursting into tears to begin with.
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. But if you're asking whether it would be possible to help young gay people in the church come out as gay Christians, then I'd say the answer is yes. I've had some interaction with a group for GLBT people of Christian backgrounds, which is mainly based in Sydney and Melbourne, and I know they have provided a heck of a lot of support to a couple of young people. On one occasion, the group was contacted by a girl whose gay friend was planning to kill himself the next day because he didn't think he could be both gay and Christian. And boy did people swing into action fast in that situation.
Straight Christians could, in fact, also help young GLBT Christians to come out. But at this point in time, I think it's necessary for the older GLBT Christians to be at the forefront of convincing the younger ones - AND everybody else - that it's possible.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
the group was contacted by a girl whose gay friend was planning to kill himself the next day because he didn't think he could be both gay and Christian. And boy did people swing into action fast in that situation.
Growing up gay is never easy (although one hopes that it is much easier now than it was in the 1960s). But I never suffered a crisis like the above: thank God for our family's having become Episcopalians. Not that anyone's swishing down the aisle would have gone over very well. But for me it was just never a religious issue at any personal, confrontational level.
This was partly because I could distinguish between being and doing, and I had never yet done anything. But it was also partly because gay people had long had whatever it took (intelligence, sensitivity, taste?) to gravitate to this denomination. Some of those in my parish, or in the church at large, went out of their way to treat me well. Even though I didn't realize at the time what they were, they probably had me figured out before I had figured myself out. If I had needed them in such a crisis, they would have been there. And if I didn't, it was partly because they were already there.
Ye watchers and ye holy ones...
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The post above seems to be saying that being gay is no harder than being different in any number of ways. If so, it shows a fundamental ignorance of the dynamics involved.
Maybe it does show a fundamental ignorance of the dynamics involved, maybe it doesn't. But simply saying that doesn't solve any problems.
The trouble with saying that gay people suffer uniquely in ways that non-gay people don't suffer, is that it belittles the suffering of people who don't consider themselves to be gay. It's hardly surprising if that results in homophobia. I think that saying that Jews suffered uniquely in the Holocaust causes anti-Semitism for much the same reason.
The reality, as I see it, is that we're all mortal, and we all suffer. Getting into point-scoring debates about whose suffering is the worst is a fool's game, in my opinion.
Specifically:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
At puberty, they cannot go on dates and have their sexuality validated - instead, they either go on sham dates - sometimes leading to sham marriages, or they develop a furtive, closeted sex life.
That may be - but the same thing is true of anyone who lacks social confidence, regardless of whether they consider themselves gay or straight.
It's no use telling me that this doesn't happen - because, as far as I'm concerned, I've experienced it myself.
I must admit, though, that I think that coming out as gay did improve things for me. The fact that I wasn't actually gay is beside the point. Coming out as gay still allowed me to connect with an LGBT social support network, that enabled me to overcome the problems caused by the homophobic bullying I previously faced - and, for that, I am grateful.
Being bullied for being gay might never have bothered me if neither I nor the bullies didn't think there was anything wrong with being gay. But I had to go through a phase of understanding that it doesn't matter even if I am gay, before I finally came to realise that I'm probably not gay after all. And making a pretence of coming out as gay was an essential part of that process.
But wait a minute - how can I be sure that I'm not gay? Actually - I can't. But I can't be sure that I am gay either. In all honesty, determining the question of whether I am or am not gay is not currently one of my immediate priorities; I have more important things to worry about. But you'll have to forgive me for being slightly sceptical of the teachings of the LGBT orthodoxy.
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Straight Christians could, in fact, also help young GLBT Christians to come out. But at this point in time, I think it's necessary for the older GLBT Christians to be at the forefront of convincing the younger ones - AND everybody else - that it's possible.
How about parents?
They have some responibility here imo.
Before my two hit puberty I made sure that they knew they were acceped and loved just the same whether they were gay or straight.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
... The trouble with saying that gay people suffer uniquely in ways that non-gay people don't suffer, is that it belittles the suffering of people who don't consider themselves to be gay. ... That may be - but the same thing is true of anyone who lacks social confidence, regardless of whether they consider themselves gay or straight ...
No, it doesn't. "Unique" doesn't mean bigger or better. "Lacking social confidence" is not the same as "I'll get beat up if I dance with the person of my choice." OliviaG
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"You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Before my two hit puberty I made sure that they knew they were acceped and loved just the same whether they were gay or straight.
One of our daughters was having some friends over. Josephine was cooking in the kitchen. She came into the kitchen; J didn't know her friends were watching from the doorway.
"Mom, I need to tell you something."
(stops cooking to listen) "Okay, sweetie, what?"
"I'm gay."
"Okay. Is there anything else you wanted to say?"
"No, that's it."
"Okay. Love you, honey."
"Love you too, mom."
(to friends) "See? Told ya."
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
The trouble with saying that gay people suffer uniquely in ways that non-gay people don't suffer, is that it belittles the suffering of people who don't consider themselves to be gay. It's hardly surprising if that results in homophobia. I think that saying that Jews suffered uniquely in the Holocaust causes anti-Semitism for much the same reason.
One difference is that most people empathise with suffering for one's race or religion.
However, for most of history, gays have been told that it is their own fault. A gay son is often unable to tell his own parents that he is being bullied because they may (and often do throw him out on to the streets and disown him.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
At puberty, they cannot go on dates and have their sexuality validated - instead, they either go on sham dates - sometimes leading to sham marriages, or they develop a furtive, closeted sex life.
That may be - but the same thing is true of anyone who lacks social confidence, regardless of whether they consider themselves gay or straight.
It's no use telling me that this doesn't happen - because, as far as I'm concerned, I've experienced it myself.
Oh, really? You say you don't know whether you are gay or not.
Well, it might sort a few things out if we knew (1) how badly you wanted to go on dates and with whom; (2) if and when you did go on dates, was your sexuality validated?
Orfeo said that gays could not go on dates and have their sexuality validated. That statement is a little vague in one way but absolutely precise in another.
My problem was not that I couldn't go on dates as much as that I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about. Girls were very nice to me, actually. I don't remember ever being turned down (speaking from a very small sample size). My first date, if you can call it that, I was a sophomore and she was a senior. She was a bassoonist and I was her piano accompanist. A classmates kidded me (probably with secret envy) about "going with" a senior. I explained that I wasn't really going with her, I was accompanying her. He came back with, "but to accompany means to go with, doesn't it?" As for the date itself, I don't even recall what the occasion was-- play or concert. Anyway, afterwords, we sat in the back seat of the car for a few minutes chatting (certainly nothing more) while Dad drove us around. That was the date. None of it was the least bit objectionable, but at the same time I had the vague impression that there must be more to going on a date to make guys look forward so eagerly to them all week.
At the very least, shouldn't there should be some time alone together? So I decided that I wouldn't try to go out on dates again until I could drive. Then I was ashamed of the family car, so I decided that I wouldn't get serious about dating until I had my own car. Which never happened. Etc. Altogether, I could count my dates in high school on the fingers of one hand. Basically, I was making such excuses to myself for the fact that I didn't care. And I didn't care because no date with a girl would validate my sexuality (although I didn't fully understand this at first).
Of course, if I had tried to "date" boys the way most boys were dating girls, there would have been a traumatic scandal. It would probably have validated my sexuality if it had occurred, but was presumably forbidden.
Can you not see a difference between something easy enough but meaningless, something permitted and even encouraged that an individual happens to find difficult, and forbidden fruit? I hear you calling all of these the same, because all you are thinking about is quantity of suffering along a one-dimensional yardstick. Not very insightful. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
The trouble with saying that gay people suffer uniquely in ways that non-gay people don't suffer, is that it belittles the suffering of people who don't consider themselves to be gay.
There are two problems with saying gay people don't suffer uniquely.
1. It's not true.
2. It belittles their suffering.
This is not to say that non-gay people don't suffer in countless other ways. Everyone who one way or another doesn't fit in during adolescence (and beyond) stands a good chance of suffering. Saying that gay people frequently suffer for being gay doesn't take anything away from the adolescent suffering of people who are shy, people who are fat, people who are handicapped, et al. But they're suffering for something else other than being shy, fat, handicapped, and it's different. Probably all of these sufferings have their unique qualities.
Pain is not a zero-sum game. There's plenty for everyone.
And frankly, I think anyone who can't or won't acknowledge the pain gay people suffer just for being gay because they feel like their own pain isn't being acknowledged needs to look at their own issues for a while. Do you really hurt so bad that it takes something away from you to have others say they hurt in a way that you don't? If you do, you need to do something about it.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Pain is not a zero-sum game. There's plenty for everyone.
Quotes file.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Ah, Ruth. You rock.
And Jessie, there is no LGBT "orthodoxy," or if there is, I don't know that I've ever ascribed to it. Sounds a bit like the famous "lifestyle" that I'm also missing out on (cleaning the rotten zuccini out of the fridge this morning definitely doesn't seem to make the cut).
Most of the time I don't think about "pain" per se. Most of the time I live a very ordinary life, working, singing, cooking, going to the library, etc., etc. But every now and then I come smack up against someone's prejudices about lesbians, and I have to take a deep breath in order to carry on. You never know when it will happen. There's no fairness about it. It just happens and I have to deal with it.
It is qualitatively different, say, from some of my clients having a problem with my accent (posh for NZ) and making fun of it, which happens all the time. I can make a joke of that with them. But if they don't like queers, there's no joke to be had, in fact, no way forward. This means I tend to stay in the closet. Which is an extremely vulnerable position, given that Rosie and I live in a not-very-big city, and it only takes one person to see us wandering along hand-in-hand and telling their friend ... who happens to be my client.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
On one occasion, the group was contacted by a girl whose gay friend was planning to kill himself the next day because he didn't think he could be both gay and Christian. And boy did people swing into action fast in that situation.
The problem with the ex-gay organizations in the US, as I've heard 1st hand from many who've gone that route, is that the action would be followed up with reinforcing the idea that the person is somehow especially broken and that God's approval can only be gained by pretending to be straight with same-sex orientation issues. That might get a person through the immediate crisis situation but the long term emotional and spiritual damage can be horrific.
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:
The problem with the ex-gay organizations in the US, as I've heard 1st hand from many who've gone that route, is that the action would be followed up with reinforcing the idea that the person is somehow especially broken and that God's approval can only be gained by pretending to be straight with same-sex orientation issues. That might get a person through the immediate crisis situation but the long term emotional and spiritual damage can be horrific.
"Ex-gay" is a bit of a misnomer for those organizations. They're not about making gay people straight, just about keeping gay people celibate.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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ThunderBunk
Stone cold idiot
# 15579
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by iGeek:
The problem with the ex-gay organizations in the US, as I've heard 1st hand from many who've gone that route, is that the action would be followed up with reinforcing the idea that the person is somehow especially broken and that God's approval can only be gained by pretending to be straight with same-sex orientation issues. That might get a person through the immediate crisis situation but the long term emotional and spiritual damage can be horrific.
"Ex-gay" is a bit of a misnomer for those organizations. They're not about making gay people straight, just about keeping gay people celibate.
That's a distinction without a difference. The damage still stands.
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Currently mostly furious, and occasionally foolish. Normal service may resume eventually. Or it may not. And remember children, "feiern ist wichtig".
Foolish, potentially deranged witterings
Posts: 2208 | From: Norwich | Registered: Apr 2010
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iGeek
Number of the Feast
# 777
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FooloftheShip:
That's a distinction without a difference. The damage still stands.
Yes. And though I would agree that the nuance is slowly becoming more clear, people desperate to not be gay will read what they will into the not-so-clearly stated objectives of said ministries.
"Change is possible" is not particularly unambiguous, is it?
Posts: 2150 | From: West End, Gulfopolis | Registered: Aug 2002
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