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Originally posted by dyfrig:
Eeeemotin, eh? Well, what puzzles me most is that the places that use choruses often preach stuff like, "There were three cats walking along a wall: the one at the front was called Facts, the one in the middle was called Faith, and the one at the back was called Feelings. So long as Faith kept looking at Facts* he was safe, but as soon as he turned around and looked at Feelings, he fell off the wall."

* or, presumably, Facts's arse.

And no, I'm not making that one up.

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There's plenty of spine tingling emotion about when you're listening to a Welsh chapel singing its heart out in four part harmonies, or when you hear the descant in the final verse of "O Come All Ye Faithful".

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
...I have a strong sense that writing new words to hymns is highly illegal (at least, if they are under copyright.) ...

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"Master, grant your servant
His discharge in peace"

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Originally posted by Miffy:
... and as for 'Bind Us Together,' some might consider it to be an entirely appropriate choice for a wedding.

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Posted                   

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Originally posted by Henry Troup:

quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:
... and as for 'Bind Us Together,' some might consider it to be an entirely appropriate choice for a wedding.

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As is Graham Kendrick's (I think) 'Jesus Stand Among Us'

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Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:


However, "I am a new creation"???

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Originally posted by Gracious rebel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Henry Troup:

quote:

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Originally posted by Miffy:
... and as for 'Bind Us Together,' some might consider it to be an entirely appropriate choice for a wedding.

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As is Graham Kendrick's (I think) 'Jesus Stand Among Us'

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Oh dear I like that one (Jesus stand among us) so what have I missed? - why is it so awful and in particular unsuitable for a wedding?

Jesus stand among us
at the meeting of our lives
be the sweet agreement
at the meeting of our eyes

Oh Jesus we love you
and so we gather here
Join our hearts in unity
and take away our fear

(I won't quote verse 2 in case I get accused of copyright infringement)

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Simple enough. It's awful because of the very high factor.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
[QB] I am a new creation
No more in condemnation.
Make a little birdhouse in your soul.

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Hooray, another reason to persuade our minister not to use it

[/tangent]

I notice there have been a few previous comments on 'indefinable' theology. Can anyone explain:

Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise.
The city of our God, the holy place...

Any connection at all?
And apologies if this has come up already (do censure me)

...and in his presence,
our problems disappear.

They what!?
[Song first line: Jesus, we celebrate your victory. Which I don't object to per se as it's worth doing, but I would rather choose my own expression of celebration, thankyou.]

[/tangent over]

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Shameless publicity for a great new book:
A voice from the fringe

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Originally posted by Gill H:
That sounds very like a playground song I vaguely remember 'Poor Jenny is a-weeping'. One of those 'join hands and walk round' type songs. I suspect someone just Christianised the words.

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Originally posted by Padingtun Bear:
Can anyone explain:

Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise.
The city of our God, the holy place...

Any connection at all?

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gill H:
That sounds very like a playground song I vaguely remember 'Poor Jenny is a-weeping'. One of those 'join hands and walk round' type songs. I suspect someone just Christianised the words.

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That's what I thought.

In fact I might even remember it sung with "Mary" in it.

For all I know it might be the last gasp of some piece of mediaeval mummery. Where are Iona and Peter Opie when you need them?

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Posted                    

quote:

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Can anyone explain:

Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise.
The city of our God, the holy place...

Any connection at all?

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Posted                    

quote:

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When the music fades
and all is stripped away
and I simply come,
longing just to bring
something that's of worth
that will bless Your heart.[1]

I'll bring You more than a song
for a song in itself
is not what You have required.[2]
You search much deeper within
through the way things appear[3]
You're looking into my heart.

I'm coming back to the heart of worship
And it's all about You.
It's all about You, Jesus.
I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it,[4]
when it's all about You,
it's all about You, Jesus.

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[1] First thing that gets me is the idea that I'm going to "bless Jesus' heart." It's theologically questionable, and it's overly precious. So I'm already cringing from the start.

[2] "For a song in itself is not what you have required"? Huh? The phrasing is awkward enough, but the song is already running in circles at this point. (Which, now that I think about it, may be fitting for some forms of worship.)

[3] I'm chewing aluminum foil when we hit "You search much deeper within through the way things appear." At this point I find myself thinking "What am I singing about anyway? 'Things'?" Some precise writing please!

[4] And then we hit "the thing I've made it." Once again, we're singing about a "thing" followed by the pronoun "it," which always has me searching for an antecedent. I'm lost and confused by this point, having no idea what the subject matter of this song is.

The song seems to be a worship song about singing worship songs, with Jesus as a passive receiver of "blessing." So, in a sense, it's not so much about praise to our God than it is about navel-gazing on the part of the singer. While I would agree that self-reflection is a necessary part of coming before God, in this case it doesn't quite work for me.

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This got me so hot under the collar when I read it that thought I should address the points raised.

First of all - a bit of background. The song was written by Matt Readman during the time when he was leading worship at Soul Survivor, Watford. The singing of worship songs during services had become more important than the God the worship songs were aimed at - they had become an idol - and the church eventually decided to not sing any songs at all for a while. Matt Readman wrote the song during that time, and then the church began to sing it as they worked through the issues they had.

Now, point 1: I believe we can bless God's heart - our prayers are like sweet smelling incense. If you don't like the lyric and find it precious - thats a matter of taste.

Point 2: The line "I'll bring You more than a song
for a song in itself
is not what You have required" relates directly to the situation I described above. This situation is a common one in many Charismatic churches - people unwittingly let the singing become an idol. The line is saying "I am bringing you my worship Lord, not just a song, because its my worship you require, not pretty sounds"

Point 3:"You search much deeper within through the way things appear." Again, this line is referring to the situation described above. Worship isn't about how things look or sound, its about the attitude of our hearts, which is what God looks at.

Point 4: "I'm sorry Lord for the thing I've made it,
when it's all about You,
it's all about You, Jesus." This is the whole point of the song, to say sorry for letting worship songs become an idol.

This song was written for a specific situation. Other churches have picked it up and used it because it has spoken directly into similar situations of their own. It has helped a lot of people come into a deeper understanding of worship, and it has certainly helped me come into a deeper realtionship with God.

I would suggest that if a worship song makes you leave a time of corporate worship - you may need to deal with an idol or two of your own!

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"It's funny how, things work out, when you're lonely and your life is full of doubt"

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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Paddington :

quote:

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Can anyone explain:

Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise.
The city of our God, the holy place...

Any connection at all?

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We always sang "In the City....etc" I didn't know that the "In" wasn't there until I looked it up in my CCAHHR songbook. It is, I believe, as Erina suggested, a paraphrase of Psalm 48.

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Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
Another thought is that our society is a good deal less musical than it was one hundred years ago

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quote:

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- people in general don't sing - which makes me wonder if congregational singing should be a part of a church service at all now).

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Originally posted by Gracious rebel:

For all I know it might be the last gasp of some piece of mediaeval mummery. Where are Iona and Peter Opie when you need them?

Ken it seems you are right from this link (mind you, like you I would find the references more authentic if they were from Iona and Peter Opie!)

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And lo, here are the Opies, or at least their views:

'It is extraordinary how partisan people can be over whether the heroine should be 'poor Jenny' or 'poor Mary', (especially if they are determined that she is 'really' Joanna of Castile). All we can say is that, as far as records go, the score stands at 55 for Poor Mary (23 pre ww1), 33 for Poor Jenny (five pre ww1) and 13 for Poor Sally (six pre ww1) with a few poor Ellens, Nellies and Sarahs. The tendency is for Londoners to sing about Jenny, while in the north and west of England, as also in Australia and Canada, 'Mary' is favoured."

I and P Opie, The Singing Game, Chapter 14.

They go on to say that the piece, whilst known in many versions collected late 19th century in the great round of folk-song collecting, is not known before 1880. So, not mediaeval Ken, but certainly very widely known. At my (Nottinghamshire) primary school in the 1970s it was Poor Mary.

Your friendly Opie resource is happy to help.

(edited to fix Bold)
[Edited by me in an attempt to fix UBB - hope it's now right! TK]

[ 03. March 2004, 13:26: Message edited by: TonyK ]

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Originally posted by phudfan:
This got me so hot under the collar . . .

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One man's trash . . .

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If we're all going to hell in a handbasket, can't we at least have a nicer handbasket?

Posted                   

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Originally posted by phudfan:
I agree with you Sir George when you say that the average Hymn is probably a better work of art than the average chorus, but I think the view that it is also a better form of worship is a bit more subjective (I hope I'm not misinterprteing you here).

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Posted                   

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Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
Compare non-work pursuits (including church) and consider how many of those pursuits involve singing, and how many people are involved in those pursuits compared with forty years ago. What conclusion would you draw?

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Posted                    

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Originally posted by Sir George Grey:
I suspect they were written in a time when really good singers were easier to come by.

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Posted                   

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Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:

quote:

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Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:


However, "I am a new creation"???

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I am a new creation
No more in condemnation.
Make a little birdhouse in your soul.

In a similar vein to:

Give thanks with a greatful heart.
Go West, life is peaceful there.

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Originally posted by testbear:
indeed:

"Open the eyes of my heart Lord, open the eyes of my heart,
I want to see you, I want to see you..."

At which point I have to bite my hands not to sing:

"But I stiiiiil haven't fouuuuuund what I'm looking for!!"

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Hooray, hooray, it's not just me! I get so laughed at at music group practice for that one. Have been tempted to sing the original in an alt. service, though.

P. B.

--------------------
Shameless publicity for a great new book:
A voice from the fringe