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Source: (consider it) Thread: New York the 6th state to extend marriage to same-sex couples
iGeek

Number of the Feast
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Doing my happy dance!
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The5thMary
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# 12953

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Yes! Yes! Yes, yes, yes! I loooooooove New York! LOL.

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Yeah,I know this doesn't make for much of a discussion, but all I can add is Hallelujah.

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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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The Empire State Building has been lit in rainbow colors to celebrate!

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Huia
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# 3473

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Wow! [Yipee]

The report I saw said there is no residentary clause, so does this mean same sex couples can come from another state and still have their marriage recognised in their home state?

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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In 25 years we are going to look back and say, "Well, duh." But we're not there yet. So yay! for each step along the way.

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
Wow! [Yipee]

The report I saw said there is no residentary clause, so does this mean same sex couples can come from another state and still have their marriage recognised in their home state?

Huia

IANAL, but I think it would be up to the home state whether or not to recogzine marriages performed in New York. But like I say, IANAL.

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Yes, I think recognition is always up to the other jurisdiction. My understanding was that before now, New York was one of a couple of states that already did recognise same-sex marriages performed elsewhere, even though NY didn't perform them itself.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemrw:
The Empire State Building has been lit in rainbow colors to celebrate!

[Overused]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Net Spinster
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes, I think recognition is always up to the other jurisdiction. My understanding was that before now, New York was one of a couple of states that already did recognise same-sex marriages performed elsewhere, even though NY didn't perform them itself.

Actually not quite. The general rule based on the Constitution was that states had to recognize each other's actions (full faith and credit, Article IV section 1
quote:
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
However the "Defense of Marriage Act" passed by Congress allows states not to recognize same sex marriages and required the Federal government not to recognize them. These are being challenged in the courts.

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spinner of webs

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Crœsos
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Remember folks like Peter Beinart arguing that the New York Supreme Court did the state's gays a favor by upholding the anti-same-sex marriage law five years ago? Because unless such laws were reversed by the legislature rather than being overturned by the judiciary they'd provoke a powerful popular backlash, like in neighboring Massachusetts! Of course, no such backlash occurred and Massachusetts never seriously considered reversing itself. So five years later here we are.

Maybe folks like Beinart should stop "advocating" for gay rights.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Kwesi
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Isn't it time for Polygamists, Polyandrists, and other Combinationists to have their right recognised?
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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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The Oh-So-Holy-Orthodox™ on Facebook are in apoplexy. My other "liberal" Orthodox friends seem to think I'm the only one who can hold the barricades. Guys, just clicking "like" on my posts isn't enough! I need some support!

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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OK, I sent you a facebook friend request, Mousethief, I will be glad to support your posts.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Isn't it time for Polygamists, Polyandrists, and other Combinationists to have their right recognised?

From the perspective of current U.S. law that's a different question entirely. Same-sex marriage is a question of franchise (who can participate) while polygamy, etc. are questions of structure (what is being participated in). To analogize from property law, the former is like saying that married women can own property in their own name (i.e. a change that allows wider participation in the current property law structure), while the latter would like enacting some form of entailment (i.e. changing the structure of property law).

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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I shouldn't think anybody who called themself a Biblical Christian should have any problem with polygamy. It's far, far, far, far, far more biblical than the one-man-one-woman thing.

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The Oh-So-Holy-Orthodox™ on Facebook are in apoplexy. My other "liberal" Orthodox friends seem to think I'm the only one who can hold the barricades. Guys, just clicking "like" on my posts isn't enough! I need some support!

I can't post on the discussion where you've been active. Either that or I'm looking at the wrong thing.

But kudos for your efforts!

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Yeah it's mostly posts on this one Greek bishop's wall. He's a good egg. Geeze Louise, the blistering spite is just incredible. The delicious (if it weren't so horrid) irony of one of the arch homophobes talking about gay "hatemongers." Puh-leeze.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Wikipedia has a great quote from a few years ago in Greece:

quote:
"Many clerics declared their opposition, but the spokesman of the Primate of the Church of Greece said that people who marry "outside the church ... can do what they want".
Smart man there. A pity so few prominent clergy understand the difference between religious and civil marriage. And I understand the New York law makes it crystal clear that no church is going to be forced against its will to provide marriage to those nasty infectious homosexuals.

[ 26. June 2011, 00:12: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Yes, I think recognition is always up to the other jurisdiction. My understanding was that before now, New York was one of a couple of states that already did recognise same-sex marriages performed elsewhere, even though NY didn't perform them itself.

Actually not quite. The general rule based on the Constitution was that states had to recognize each other's actions (full faith and credit, Article IV section 1
quote:
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
However the "Defense of Marriage Act" passed by Congress allows states not to recognize same sex marriages and required the Federal government not to recognize them. These are being challenged in the courts.

Ah okay. Thank you. I hadn't realised that DOMA was part of the reason that States had the option whether to recognise each other's marriages or not.

It makes for very pretty maps on Wikipedia, doesn't it?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Smart man there. A pity so few prominent clergy understand the difference between religious and civil marriage. And I understand the New York law makes it crystal clear that no church is going to be forced against its will to provide marriage to those nasty infectious homosexuals.

This whole thing is really ridiculous. Does the state force the Catholic Church to marry divorced people?

Yeah, I didn't think so. Good grief; will people ever grow up about this, I wonder....?

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Yeah it's mostly posts on this one Greek bishop's wall. He's a good egg. Geeze Louise, the blistering spite is just incredible. The delicious (if it weren't so horrid) irony of one of the arch homophobes talking about gay "hatemongers." Puh-leeze.

Yeah, I don't think most of us can chime in unless we "friend" the Bishop.

That Teresa chick is a piece of work. Feel free to quote this Lutheran girl by name: "My desire to face God with a clear conscience is exactly what motivates me to be an activist for my gay brothers and sisters."

And I fuckin' mean it. It boggles me that some people can't parse that, whether they agree with me or not.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I hadn't realised that DOMA was part of the reason that States had the option whether to recognise each other's marriages or not.

It makes for very pretty maps on Wikipedia, doesn't it?

States have to recognize marriages between a male and female homo sapiens that take place in another state (barring the usual rules applying across state boundaries about consent) and they have to recognize divorces that take place in other states. They have the option because of DOMA of not recognizing marriages between homo sapiens of the same sex (though for some people determining what sex they are can be tricky [e.g., someone with XY chromosomes but appears female] and states have different rules on that also).

I do like SVG maps, if done right, they are very easy to update.

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spinner of webs

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Thanks everybody. We should probably try not to import stuff from FB to here. Not to play Junior Host or anything. Sorry I started it.

Excellent comments:

TubaMirum: " Does the state force the Catholic Church to marry divorced people?"

Kelly: "My desire to face God with a clear conscience is exactly what motivates me to be an activist for my gay brothers and sisters."

There are so many things I like about the Ship. [Smile]

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Smart man there. A pity so few prominent clergy understand the difference between religious and civil marriage. And I understand the New York law makes it crystal clear that no church is going to be forced against its will to provide marriage to those nasty infectious homosexuals.

This whole thing is really ridiculous. Does the state force the Catholic Church to marry divorced people?

Yeah, I didn't think so. Good grief; will people ever grow up about this, I wonder....?

This seems to be where the conservatives are trying to shift the argument. In Canada, the Conservative government has basically accepted gay marriage as a done deal, but there was some talk for a while of the government introducing legislation specifically protecting the rights of churches not to perform same-sex marriages if they don't want to. I don't think that bill was ever introduced, since churches already had the right to marry or not marry as they saw fit, but it was something being pushed by the right wing.

link

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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!

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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473

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Stetson and Net Spinster thanks for your answers. As a citizen of a tiny country with a centralised government (New Zealand) I find the ways the States interact quite fascinating.

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Federations. Lawyers die younger in them, or at least lose their hair faster.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The Oh-So-Holy-Orthodox™ on Facebook are in apoplexy. My other "liberal" Orthodox friends seem to think I'm the only one who can hold the barricades. Guys, just clicking "like" on my posts isn't enough! I need some support!

IIRC, when Queen Frederika was told that a new bishop was a pederast, she replied "I thought they all were". Perhaps not all, but theenqiries which led to the reforms at Mt Athos in the eighties showed that many monks were gay.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282

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quote:
This seems to be where the conservatives are trying to shift the argument. In Canada, the Conservative government has basically accepted gay marriage as a done deal, but there was some talk for a while of the government introducing legislation specifically protecting the rights of churches not to perform same-sex marriages if they don't want to. I don't think that bill was ever introduced, since churches already had the right to marry or not marry as they saw fit, but it was something being pushed by the right wing.

link

Thanks for the link.

I think it's an attempt at a face-saving parting shot, in fact; they know they've lost the fight over this (because they don't really have any sort of good argument) but need to get in one more dig as they go out....

[ 26. June 2011, 12:25: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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TubaMirum
Shipmate
# 8282

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Ah. Here's the answer (my bold):

quote:
The amendment that was passed stated that barring access to same-sex ceremonies, or failing to provide services for them, would not “result in any state or local government action to penalize, withhold benefits, or discriminate against such religious corporation, benevolent order, a not-for-profit corporation operated, supervised or controlled by a religious corporation.”

The amendment also included protections for “any employee thereof being managed, directed or supervised by or in conjunction with a religious corporation, benevolent order or a not-for-profit corporation.” And it included similar protections for clergy who declined to perform same-sex ceremonies.

Finally, the legislation contained what is known as an inseverability clause. If a court found any part of the act to be invalid, the entire legislation would also be invalid. The clause is an important provision to Republicans because it means that the marriage legislation would be at risk if the religious exemptions were successfully challenged in court.

So in fact, they are still fighting the fight....

[ 26. June 2011, 12:43: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Wow. An INseverability clause.

That is... I'm sorry, but coming from a system where severability clauses are quite commonly used as a constitutional safeguard, the idea of an inseverability clause just seems like the most perverse form of childish law-making imaginable.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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TubaMirum
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# 8282

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Wow. An INseverability clause.

That is... I'm sorry, but coming from a system where severability clauses are quite commonly used as a constitutional safeguard, the idea of an inseverability clause just seems like the most perverse form of childish law-making imaginable.

The language about discrimination "against such religious corporation, benevolent order, a not-for-profit corporation operated, supervised or controlled by a religious corporation" makes me think they are looking at cases like the Ocean Grove (NJ) Camp Meeting Association lawsuit:

quote:
The state Division on Civil Rights ruled Sunday a lesbian couple can move forward with a discrimination complaint against Ocean Grove for refusing to let them use an oceanfront pavilion for a civil union.

Since the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association regularly offered the pavilion to the broader public, it was bound by the state Law Against Discrimination from barring civil unions, division director J. Frank Vespa-Papaleo ruled. Because its action was voluntary, he added, use of the discrimination statute does not impair the association's "free exercise of religion."

So this is a direct challenge to any such future action. IOW, they're saying, "don't try this again - or we'll torpedo same-sex marriage."

I wonder if this is unconstitutional! Would be interesting to see....

[ 26. June 2011, 14:18: Message edited by: TubaMirum ]

Posts: 4719 | From: Right Coast USA | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
# 15841

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
The language about discrimination "against such religious corporation, benevolent order, a not-for-profit corporation operated, supervised or controlled by a religious corporation" makes me think they are looking at cases like the Ocean Grove (NJ) Camp Meeting Association lawsuit:

quote:
The state Division on Civil Rights ruled Sunday a lesbian couple can move forward with a discrimination complaint against Ocean Grove for refusing to let them use an oceanfront pavilion for a civil union.

Since the Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association regularly offered the pavilion to the broader public, it was bound by the state Law Against Discrimination from barring civil unions, division director J. Frank Vespa-Papaleo ruled. Because its action was voluntary, he added, use of the discrimination statute does not impair the association's "free exercise of religion."

So this is a direct challenge to any such future action. IOW, they're saying, "don't try this again - or we'll torpedo same-sex marriage."

I wonder if this is unconstitutional! Would be interesting to see....

This won't have any affect on cases that don't involve the NY marriage law specifically, though I don't doubt the GOP may try this with other future legislation. The only reason it was successfully inserted in this particular piece of legislation was it was the only way to guarantee it's passage, otherwise gay and lesbian couples would still be waiting for the right to marry in NY. There may come a day when this particular piece of legislation can be replaced, but that day probably won't come until more states pass laws enabling gay marriage than bar it.

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"love all, trust few, do wrong to no one"
Wm. Shakespeare

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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058

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quote:
Originally posted by TubaMirum:
The language about discrimination "against such religious corporation, benevolent order, a not-for-profit corporation operated, supervised or controlled by a religious corporation" makes me think they are looking at cases like the Ocean Grove (NJ) Camp Meeting Association lawsuit:

I was wondering the same. I note in the Ocean Grove case the pavilion in question was explicitly open to the general public since the camp association wanted to receive real estate tax exemptions; it was not forced to be a public accommodation but if it so chose, it couldn't discriminate (note this was not an exemption as a church and not all non-profits that own land in New Jersey are exempt from tax on their land). Ocean Grove is an odd place anyway, the camp association owns all the property in the community and leases land to the residents (all 4,000+); both couples wanting to get a civil union were residents of Ocean Grove. I think the camp association's board is self perpetuating not elected and all members must be Methodist.

BTW up until about 1980 no driving was allowed in the community on Sundays and this was enforced. The camp association lost that lawsuit.

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spinner of webs

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The Oh-So-Holy-Orthodox™ on Facebook are in apoplexy. My other "liberal" Orthodox friends seem to think I'm the only one who can hold the barricades. Guys, just clicking "like" on my posts isn't enough! I need some support!

IIRC, when Queen Frederika was told that a new bishop was a pederast, she replied "I thought they all were". Perhaps not all, but theenqiries which led to the reforms at Mt Athos in the eighties showed that many monks were gay.
Just for the record, pederasty (otherwise known as paedophilia), is not the same thing as homosexuality.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Gee D
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# 13815

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The OED definitions show the very clear difference between pederasty and paedophilia. Pederasty is buggery; paedophilia is sexual attraction to children of either sex.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The OED definitions show the very clear difference between pederasty and paedophilia. Pederasty is buggery; paedophilia is sexual attraction to children of either sex.

I would think that, given the similarity of the words and the high possibility/probability of their being confused, it would be wise to avoid the word "pederasty" altogether.

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Stetson
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# 9597

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
The OED definitions show the very clear difference between pederasty and paedophilia. Pederasty is buggery; paedophilia is sexual attraction to children of either sex.

I would think that, given the similarity of the words and the high possibility/probability of their being confused, it would be wise to avoid the word "pederasty" altogether.
My 1984 Webster's defines pederasty as "sodomy between males, especially between a man and a boy". My late 90s Longmans(which is supposed to be British English) defines "paederast" as "a man who has sex with a boy".

So yes, I'd say the connotation of pedophilia is QUITE strong. I suspect this originates from the days of classical learning, when homosexuality was strongly associated with the ancient Greeks and their catamites etc.

[ 26. June 2011, 22:47: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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The Collins English Dictionary gives pederasty as
quote:
Homosexual relations between men and boys
(My emphasis.)

The word has its roots in the ancient greek practice of adult men having sex with adolescent boys. When I was taught about classical civilisation I was told it was considered effeminate for them to accept anal sex, and they were more likely to engage in intercrual sex.

Frankly, I don't care about the technical detail of the act - I care that the lie of a link between homosexuality and child abuse is not perpetuated deliberately or by poor word choice.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Crossposted.

The word root is from greek for boy + greek for sexual love.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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All the etomology is no doubt true.

But as there are no under-18s (under-16s? -- where is Squiggle Andrew when you need him to tell us exactly) on Mt Athos, its use in that context suggests a different connotation in this case.

John
John

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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It was the conjoined - all clergy have sex with boys (reported slander) - being equated to - many monks are gay - that I was objecting to. As not being the same thing, not morally equivalent.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Frankly, I don't care about the technical detail of the act - I care that the lie of a link between homosexuality and child abuse is not perpetuated deliberately or by poor word choice.

A few comments:

1. I have never equated homosexuality with paedophilia. Nothing in my posts could lead to that conclusion.

2. I have not made a poor word choice. My use of pederasty and paedophilia is supported by the authority of the OED and Macquarie.

3. I do not know what authority Collins dictionary has.

4. The quote from Queen Frederika comes from an article by Leslie Fiedler in Encounter. It was that quote which used "pederasty".

[ 27. June 2011, 10:24: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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TonyK

Host Emeritus
# 35

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And one further comment - interesting (in some respects) though this search for word definitions and origins may be ...

it is quite a big tangent from the OP!

Let's get back on track, please.

Thank you

Yours aye ... TonyK
Host, Dead Horses

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Crœsos
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# 238

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Well, New York's mainline religious authorities are taking a disappointing but not unexpected position on the issue.

quote:
Religious leaders slammed the state's new gay marriage law on Saturday, vowing to ban politicians who supported the measure from any Catholic church and parochial school events.

The city's top Catholic clergy released strongly worded statements in the hours after the state Senate voted 33-29 to legalize gay unions.

Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio, of the diocese of Brooklyn, called on all Catholic schools to reject any honor bestowed upon them by Gov. Cuomo, who played a pivotal role in getting the bill passed.

He further asked all pastors and principals to "not invite any state legislator to speak or be present at any parish or school celebration."

"This is a further erosion of the real understanding of marriage," DiMarzio told the Daily News. "The state should not be concerned about regulating affection."

First, I'm pretty sure that this exclusion doesn't apply to any politician passing or revising New York's divorce law, so that seems a bit inconsistent. Second, since when is "regulating affection" the appropriate job of the Catholic Church?

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The Oh-So-Holy-Orthodox™ on Facebook are in apoplexy. My other "liberal" Orthodox friends seem to think I'm the only one who can hold the barricades. Guys, just clicking "like" on my posts isn't enough! I need some support!

As I'm not friends with the Bishop (and not sure I wish to be!), it's a bit difficult to post a comment.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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What Bishop Di Marzio does not recognise is that "marriage" has various consequences. It is not purely a religious concept. What the legislature has done is to provide to same-sex couples the same civil consequences of a marriage ceremony as flow to heterosexual couples. Nothing more, nothing less. The legislature has clearly said that no person may be compelled to perform a same-sex marriage if that is against conscience. What's the good Bishop's problem?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
What's the good Bishop's problem?

In short, he doesn't like gays and has decided that his personal distaste should have legal consequences for others.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Louise
Shipmate
# 30

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The Oh-So-Holy-Orthodox™ on Facebook are in apoplexy. My other "liberal" Orthodox friends seem to think I'm the only one who can hold the barricades. Guys, just clicking "like" on my posts isn't enough! I need some support!

As I'm not friends with the Bishop (and not sure I wish to be!), it's a bit difficult to post a comment.
hosting

Can I remind people not to import matters from other boards/websites onto these boards? I didn't post previously because Mousethief remembered and corrected himself. But just in case anyone is in doubt about official policy, please don't import arguments from your facebooktwitblogwhatever here! [Big Grin]

cheers,
Louise
Dead Horses Host
hosting off

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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Re The Ocean Grove case: it's fairly obvious that they were in the business of hiring pavilions, not in the business of conducting marriage services.

If you're in the business of hiring pavilions to all comers (ie not just 'members' or some similar category), it's not really any of your business what the pavilion is going to be used for so long as the pavilion isn't going to be physically damaged by the use.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest that someone would jump to conclusions and think 'OMG they're going to make us conduct same-sex marriages', but the two situations are easily distinguished and I think courts would quite happily do so.

[ 28. June 2011, 03:23: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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