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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: homophobia towards my kids
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
As for the tutu, I think that the logic would be that, for boys, effeminate equals gay.
Boy I could take them to a few places that would quickly disabuse them of THAT notion.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Well for sure. But bigotry and logic mix like oil and water, right?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Well for sure. But bigotry and logic mix like oil and water, right?
Touché.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I don't understand why a rainbow flag and a tutu = gay.
The rainbow flag is easy enough to understand, surely? As for the tutu, I think that the logic would be that, for boys, effeminate equals gay.
Well, I'm guessing you mean it's related to diversity, which is probably correct. But I suspect, and wikipedia would seem to back me up, that it's possibly related also to Judy Garland and The Wizard Of Oz, which was culturally iconic for a lot of gay men in the pre-Stonewall era(in fact, the Stonewall riots occured the day of Judy Garland's death).
Wiki also mentions that it might be descended from a peace flag used at college rallies in the 60s. Quite possible, though I'm sure that a lot people would still attach Wizard Of Oz connotations to it, if only as an after-the-fact interpretation.
Sorry, can't post that particular wiki link. The article is called "Rainbow flag LGBT movement".
[ 16. July 2011, 06:43: Message edited by: Stetson ]
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Was the church sponsored walk in fancy dress? Because if everyone, or a number of people attending, were dressed up, this might well be the dressing up gear your son has for walks. And your son really didn't deserve what he got, because he was, from his position, just entering into the spirit of the occasion.
If he was the only person dressed up he may well have been trying to make a point, and although there is no way the church should have been so judgemental as to label him gay from being supportive of gay rights, or described his mother as an abomination, maybe he was picking a fight. Maybe to prove to himself where the church stood.
Teenagers, well, the ones I've worked with, do come full of ire and righteous indignation when they feel as if they've been hard done by, and it takes a while of trying to unpick what they're saying to find out what did happen and to try and put it in a wider context. Sometimes it's worth asking if they are just letting off steam or want something resolved - and if so what.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Here's the "Rainbow Flag (LGBT Movement)" Wikipedia link, with the help of TinyURL.com.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Thanks, Gold Key!
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
the fact that the gay community indulges in labelling principled objections to their behaviour as 'homophobia' is a bad habit.
As long as homophobes mount campaigns with titles like
"Defense of Marriage Act," and drum gays out of the military
because someone is afraid that they will compromise group
cohesion, then I submit that they are clearly motivated by fear,
which is in the etymology and literal meaning of the term. I'll
take them at their word can call a spade a spade, thank you.
Besides, fear is less despicable than any other motive I can imagine.
Pedant that I am, I seem to be the first to note that a
boy about the same age in Genesis was also known for wearing
a coat of many colors. And whatdayaknow, his brothers gave
him a hard time as well, and even tried to erase him from the
picture. What is it about wearing all those colors, every one
of them a gift of God, that so inexorably screams "gay"?
Of course, the sentiment behind the rainbow flag is inclusiveness.
It seems to me that Christ gave the apostles "rainbow" orders when
he sent them out preaching the gospel to all nations. I
missed where he said preach to the heterosexuals and be
sure to keep the homos out. You don't get to steal Jesus
and keep Him for yourself.
Nor do you get to deny facts. Leave unpersoning to Orwell's 1984. We have no details about what this walk-- what it
was for, how hard it was, how much investment of time and
energy-- but anyone who completed it deserves to demonstrate
that he did with his picture along with the others who did.
Good heavens, atheists accuse Christians of denying facts
all the time. Must one so eagerly prove them right?
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Invictus_88
Shipmate
# 15352
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Posted
Alogon,
Homosexuals aren't relevant here, as we don't know what gender/s of person the boy concerned finds himself attracted to.
Rather, he was a "gay campaigner", in effect, and this is a different thing.
Posts: 206 | Registered: Dec 2009
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Invictus_88 points out:
Homosexuals aren't relevant here, as we don't know what gender/s of person the boy concerned finds himself attracted to.
Rather, he was a "gay campaigner", in effect, and this is a different thing.
True, but I repeat my question: what about rainbow clothing screams "gay"? If he was a gay campaigner, in so doing he was observing the commandment "Honor thy father and thy mother". We used to commend a child for that, not slap him. The issue wasn't like a random bee in his bonnet. He was concerned enough to be taken for gay. That, too, should be admirable. It reminds me of the American diplomat in Wallenberg shepherding a group of visitors on a train in pre-war Nazi Germany. A conductor appeared in the car announcing that any Jew would have to move to a car for Jews. "Who is a Jew here?" The diplomat replied, "In that case, we are all Jews." Sometimes an impudent adolescent gives me more faith in the future of the human race than anyone else in sight.
quote:
Golden Key writes:
PhotoShop might make sense if he'd jumped into the pic at the last minute and another pic couldn't be taken, or if they couldn't figure out a way to talk to him directly. It would probably have been better to tell him face to face at the time that he couldn't be in the pic. If they had some diplomacy and a sense of humor, they could have made a joke that they didn't want all the little old ladies to keel over when they saw the pic on the bulletin board!
I have to think that who appears in a picture is a very insignificant matter compared with how the boy might have embarrassed the church with all the onlookers during the walk itself. Yet he apparently got away with that with no objection either before or during the event. Since it is a picture we are talking about, and the problem is one person being too colorful, why didn't anyone think of simply issuing the photograph in black-and-white (if they really must do anything at all about it)?
quote:
Johnny asks:
2. How would we respond if this was about a 15 year old boy who turned up for a church walk,
of a church known for its pro-gay stance, with a t-shirt saying, "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!" ?
I'd want to be exasperatingly pedantic again: it's in our creed that God the Father created everything seen and unseen. Therefore God did create Adam and Steve. Hence the
statement on the T shirt is not only scientifically moot, but by our lights heretical and false. It is inconsistent with a basic (and I do mean basic) teaching of the church
and will misrepresent us. Furthermore, it will deliberately offend people; and as a statement
meant to exclude, any offense taken is much more justifiabe than any symbolic gesture intended to include.
Then I hope I'd count to ten and let it all pass,
taking the situation as an opportunity to minister to a kid who is angry and insecure about something, and to show him over
time the power of love. If our reputation as an affirming church were so fragile as to be threatened by a single youth looking a little wayward, I wouldn't feel very entitled to object.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Yes, but the boy's church is NOT an affirming church.
Did you read the article about the rainbow flag? In the US, anyway, flags and clothing that display a prominent rainbow are apt to be interpreted as gay-related.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
If it were the boy's church, all the more right he would have to protest something to which he objects. It was not, but I gather that he attended (1) at the invitation of one or more peers, who may or may not have been aware of his family situation (2) in a village where there weren't a lot of alternatives.
I submit that, to paraphrase Freud, sometimes a rainbow can be just a rainbow. There is ancient biblical precedent (if nothing else) for a boy's wearing many colors. If someone in Wales infers that a rainbow-wearer is ipso facto a gay activist because people infer it in the U.S., mightn't it be a problem for the inferrer rather than the wearer? You said earlier that homosexuality is irrelevant, but now you insist that this it is what it is about.
We also have the term "rainbow coalition", which celebrates many different kinds of people coming together. This sounds like a healthy thing to me (quite aside from the fact that God created rainbows and all the colors therein). I would think that if someone objects to this imagery, and the value behind it, on the grounds that gay people must be an exception to an otherwise general invitation, then this, too, is a problem for the objector. Why it isn't an embarrassing problem as well is beyond my comprehension. At any rate, set against the meaning of the symbol, it is arguably the objector who is picking a fight.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Invictus_88:
Alogon,
Homosexuals aren't relevant here, as we don't know what gender/s of person the boy concerned finds himself attracted to.
Rather, he was a "gay campaigner", in effect, and this is a different thing.
I don't see why only gays should care about the way that gays are treated, any more that only blacks should have cared how blacks were treated in the 1960s civil rights movement.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Helen-Eva
Shipmate
# 15025
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I don't see why only gays should care about the way that gays are treated, any more that only blacks should have cared how blacks were treated in the 1960s civil rights movement.
Totally agree. There's no obligation to belong to a particular minority or group to compaign for its rights.
I'm sure at least part of the boy's motivations must be supporting his mother who I think the OP said is a lesbian. I think he was very brave and I hope he can find a church where he'll be welcomed.
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I thought the radio 3 announcer said "Weber" but it turned out to be Webern. Story of my life.
Posts: 637 | From: London, hopefully in a theatre or concert hall, more likely at work | Registered: Aug 2009
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anne
Shipmate
# 73
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Posted
We're currently planning our parish youth weekend away, the theme is Noah's Ark. Rainbows are going to feature quite strongly. There may even be children wearing rainbows or carrying rainbow flags- should I edit them out of the photos in the parish magazine for fear of offending our more conservative brethren?
I am finding this thread saddening. The church members whose actions are described in the OP seem to have over-reacted appallingly to a very mild act of rebellion by a teenager. Perhaps the tutu was more of a challenge than the flag, but even so, insulting him and his mother was a dreadful response. Bad manners and, more importantly, bad witness to the God of love - the God who, incidentally, gave us the rainbow as a sign of his promise to all of his people.
anne
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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale
Posts: 338 | From: Devon | Registered: May 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Alogon--
--Reading the OPer's various posts, it seems that the boy and his brother had been going there for a while.
--I realize that symbolism varies among countries...but the combination of a rainbow flag and a boy wearing a tutu (female ballet gear) is most likely meant to refer to LGBT issues.
--*I* never said that homosexuality was irrelevant to the situation, nor the discussion. You've got me mixed up with someone else.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
He was photoshopped out of the church pictures for being gay
For some reason, I thought of this thread this morning. I found myself wondering whether anyone else was photoshopped out of the picture because they looked like they might be sinful.
For example, were there any fat people on the walk? If so, were they photoshopped out of the picture to avoid giving the impression that the church was not sufficiently opposed to gluttony?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
In case anyone reading this thread would find it helpful, here's a blog on raising a (possibly) gay child:
Pink is for boys
It's not my own blog, but I do know the blogger, who wishes to remain anonymous for the sake of the kids.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
^ Wow. Thanks for the link because at the very least it will be interesting reading.
There's some possibility that that child is transgender rather than gay, which is an even trickier road. But either way the author is doing an amazing job.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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