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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eat fast food for Jesus
John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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This is a worthwhile discussion and I hope it continues. But it will continue in its proper home.

Moving to Dead Horses.

John Holding
Purgatory Host

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Johnny S
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I think this is part of why corporations ought to have to reveal their political activity in general. Fictional people ought to have less say in politics than real people, and corporations are using this anonymous crap to manipulate the marketplace of ideas the same way they manipulate buying habits. It is a danger to democracy, and if they aren't even willing to be known for their intrusion into governance, they shouldn't get any say at all.

I actually agree TC here. People should know where the money goes and Dan Cathy should be accountable for that. If that is what this is all about, then fair enough.

However, I think it is also important to stress what Crœsos said early on - this has nothing to do with Dan Cathy's personal views on SSM because he has not made them public. There is amazing amount of lazy journalism going on using cut-and-paste to make out this is about his chick-a-fil's stance on this issue. That stuff is simply untrue. He has made in comments on radio about being pro-traditional marriage but he has never gone on record saying that he is against SSM.

quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:


To quote from a friend:

quote:
1. Two organizations that work very hard to roll back any protections that [gay people] may have are the Family Research Council and the Marriage & Family Foundation. For example, the Family Research council leadership has officially stated that same-gender-loving behavior should be criminalized in this country. They draw their pay, in part, from the donations of companies like Chick-Fil-A. Both groups have also done “missionary” work abroad that served to strengthen and promote criminalization of same-sex relations. Chick-Fil-A has given roughly $5M to these organizations to support their work. Chick-Fil-A’s money comes from the profits they make when you purchase their products.


Where does your friend get that information about FRC from? I'd never heard of them before this kicked off but there is nothing on their website (that I can find) that even hints at this.

According to their website they are fighting any political attempts to treat homosexual partnerships as equivalent to heterosexual marriage.

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balaam

Making an ass of myself
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
This is what saddens me. That such views are so widely held. [Disappointed]

This is what saddens me. That some people are saddened that everyone does not share their enlightened views.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
This is what saddens me. That such views are so widely held. [Disappointed]

This is what saddens me. That some people are saddened that everyone does not share their enlightened views.
To be inclusive, to believe that gay people are truly equal to heterosexual people in every way, included in law - this shouldn't be considered enlightened. It should be mainstream.

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The Great Gumby

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quote:
Originally posted by Balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
This is what saddens me. That such views are so widely held. [Disappointed]

This is what saddens me. That some people are saddened that everyone does not share their enlightened views.
This is what saddens me. That some people are so wrapped up in some warped sort of conservative v liberal identity war that they can't even see how far these nasty, malicious attitudes are from the gospel they preach.

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
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quote:
Where does your friend get that information about FRC from? I'd never heard of them before this kicked off but there is nothing on their website (that I can find) that even hints at this.

According to their website they are fighting any political attempts to treat homosexual partnerships as equivalent to heterosexual marriage.

Do I have to do everyone's fucking homework for them? What is up with the fucking attitude that "If I don't know about it it doesn't exist." Do you really think that because you can't find it on their website it isn't in the public record? I am really disgusted with fucking Christians' wilful ignorance right now.

The Family Research Council is a recognized hate group that has repeatedly published "studies" linking homosexuality to paedophilia. The group has been behind efforts to criminalize homosexuality in parts of Africa. They lobbied Congress to stop Congress from passing a condemnation of the Uganda "Death to Gays" law. Their leader, Tony Perkins, is constantly on the U.S. media (MSNBC, CNN, etc.) arguing against the expansion of job and housing protections for gays. When homosexuality was decriminalized throughout the U.S. after the Supreme Courts "Lawrence vs. Texas" the FRC condemned the decision and promised to work to pass a Constitutional Amendment to recriminalize it. More recently, the Family Research Council's Senior Researcher for Policy Studies Peter Sprigg, said that gay behaviour should be outlawed and that "criminal sanctions against homosexual behaviour" should be enforced.

Really, Google is your friend. Use it sometime.

--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
However, I think it is also important to stress what Crœsos said early on - this has nothing to do with Dan Cathy's personal views on SSM because he has not made them public. There is amazing amount of lazy journalism going on using cut-and-paste to make out this is about his chick-a-fil's stance on this issue. That stuff is simply untrue. He has made in comments on radio about being pro-traditional marriage but he has never gone on record saying that he is against SSM.

I'm not quite sure why you think we don't know Dan Cathy's views about SSM--for anyone in his own culture (Southern Evangelicalism) the words "Traditional Marriage" and the phrase "redefining marriage" are very clear. It's a very safe assumption to make, and requires a really tin ear to American speech not to think he has made his postion on SSM very clear.

Also, to clear up a few other things, CFA is NOT a publicly-traded company--it is a privately-owned corporation. Whether Dan Cathy speaks for himself or for the corporation, the two are much more closely linked than they would be if he were the CEO of IBM.

It's made a little more complicated by the fact that the individual stores are franchises, owned by other people. At least one store in Decatur GA with a large clientele of gay-friendly customers placed a sign on their window that Dan Cathy did NOT speak for the owners of that particular store. Nonetheless, their franchise fees obviously go to feed his personal wealth, from which the donations in question have been made.

There is a certain amount of political rhetoric from elected officials which hasn't been that helpful. There's no question, though, that they will not be able to keep CFA out of someplace that is properly zoned (and I've heard one of them admit as much). They'll have a little more trouble in a places if they want something from an unfriendly local authority--e.g., zoning variances. You might think that is a bit unfair, but it's the same sort of tactics neighborhood associations use to keep sex stores in someone else's backyard.

In spite of Wednesday's mad rush on CFA stores, I think in the long run Dan Cathy's remarks will hurt the franchise owners slightly. Enthusiasm wanes, but grudges last a long time. Most gay people have known about Cathy's contributions for a long time, and have eaten there as little as possible. Gay people not eating there will be nothing new. The long term effect, if any, will come from those who could be termed "gay-friendly" who weren't plugged in enough to know about Cathy's donations before.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Izdaari
Apprentice
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I can neither support nor boycott CFA, since their closest store is 500 miles away in Boise. But I would do neither in any case: IMO food, fast or otherwise, is all about the food and not about the politics. Politics don't taste good, taste tastes good. So, whether I eat at CFA, assuming I get near one, depends on how good their fried chicken is, not on the opinions of the company president.
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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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Izdaari, they don't really do "proper" fried chicken--they do sandwiches with a fried chicken breast in them.

Their basic chicken sandwich with nothing extra has 440 calories, 16 g of fat, 1400 mg of sodium, and 42 g of carbohydrates. That's before the waffle fries or the milkshake.

Bon appetit.

People who make a point of eating there more frequently in a show of support for Dan Cathy are not doing their bodies any favors.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Can we please get over the "it's about the owner's opinion" lie? It's about the owner's donations to hate groups. See the difference? I can. Why can't you all?

quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
However, I think it is also important to stress what Crœsos said early on - this has nothing to do with Dan Cathy's personal views on SSM because he has not made them public. There is amazing amount of lazy journalism going on using cut-and-paste to make out this is about his chick-a-fil's stance on this issue. That stuff is simply untrue. He has made in comments on radio about being pro-traditional marriage but he has never gone on record saying that he is against SSM.

Well he did say allowing persons of the same sex to marry "invites God's judgment on our nation." Other than that, no.

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saysay

Ship's Praying Mantis
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well he did say allowing persons of the same sex to marry "invites God's judgment on our nation." Other than that, no.

And just imagine how surprised he'll be when he discovers that it does invite G-d's judgement on our nation, and that judgement is positive, while G-d's judgement on corporate greed and its takeover of our political process isn't...

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I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."

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Johnny S
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# 12581

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well he did say allowing persons of the same sex to marry "invites God's judgment on our nation." Other than that, no.

He didn't though.

He said something along the lines of children needing a mother and a father and if society redefines marriage then it invites God's judgment. In the interview that quote allegedly comes from he doesn't mention SSM once.

Now, I appreciate that the quote you gave is a fair deduction from that so I'm not disputing his views. My point is that there is something disturbing about this story in the way that commentators are doing the editing for us and then putting the words back into his mouth.

Still, as you said, this has nothing to do with his own views but everything to do with corporate lobbying - and that issue should be in the limelight. I agree.

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Johnny S
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# 12581

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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Do I have to do everyone's fucking homework for them? What is up with the fucking attitude that "If I don't know about it it doesn't exist." Do you really think that because you can't find it on their website it isn't in the public record? I am really disgusted with fucking Christians' wilful ignorance right now.

The Family Research Council is a recognized hate group that has repeatedly published "studies" linking homosexuality to paedophilia. The group has been behind efforts to criminalize homosexuality in parts of Africa. They lobbied Congress to stop Congress from passing a condemnation of the Uganda "Death to Gays" law. Their leader, Tony Perkins, is constantly on the U.S. media (MSNBC, CNN, etc.) arguing against the expansion of job and housing protections for gays. When homosexuality was decriminalized throughout the U.S. after the Supreme Courts "Lawrence vs. Texas" the FRC condemned the decision and promised to work to pass a Constitutional Amendment to recriminalize it. More recently, the Family Research Council's Senior Researcher for Policy Studies Peter Sprigg, said that gay behaviour should be outlawed and that "criminal sanctions against homosexual behaviour" should be enforced.

Really, Google is your friend. Use it sometime.

The reason why I asked is that google is not my friend. By that I mean that I know precious little about America. I'd never even heard of the FRC until this new story. And I would never make a judgment call on them based on what google could tell me. For that I need help from people in the US to tell me about the biases and trustworthiness of sources.

I think this story is a classic example of just how much damage google can do. I love the ship and have learnt a lot from it over the years and one of the reasons is that several shipmates have strong BS detectors.

And for all those reasons I've got to say that I'm disappointed in your links. Your definition of them as a 'recognised hate group' comes from a body whose aim is to promote gay rights. Your last link is to a story 'playing hardball with Chris Matthews' that doesn't even mention the story. The story from the Washington Post looks pretty good but I can't access the report that the story says it is basing it's direction on.

I'll carry on looking into the Washington Post story since that seems a good place to start but your reaction seems to confirm my initial thoughts about how the US is discussing SSM - neither side is listening at all.

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
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quote:
And for all those reasons I've got to say that I'm disappointed in your links. Your definition of them as a 'recognised hate group' comes from a body whose aim is to promote gay rights. Your last link is to a story 'playing hardball with Chris Matthews' that doesn't even mention the story. The story from the Washington Post looks pretty good but I can't access the report that the story says it is basing it's direction on.
The Southern Poverty Law Center was actually set up to combat racism and the growth of white supremacist groups but expanded to combat all forms of hate. You can read about it more about its history and mission here..

Now sure what story you were expecting to see on the Chris Matthews. The show interviewed the spokesman from the FRC who said that homosexuality should be criminalized. It's there in black and white. Perhaps you should go back and read more carefully.

Funny how you completely ignore the link from the FRC's own website that says that tries to link gay men to paedophilia, since that is the most damning of all. Perhaps in your little world implying that gay men pose a particular threat to children or that gay culture "celebrates paedophilia" doesn't constitute hate, but the fact that you don't seem to regard that as hateful at all certainly sets of my B.S. detector. All of this certainly goes beyond your assertion that the FRC is just a innocent Christian group that happens to oppose gay marriage.

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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810

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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Your definition of them as a 'recognised hate group' comes from a body whose aim is to promote gay rights.

Really, the only gay rights SPLC is promoting are the rights to be employed, to have housing, to not get beaten up or killed and to not have their kids taken away. They're hardly ACT!Up.

SPLC (the Southern Poverty Law Center) is a well-regarded nonprofit in the US- they have done valuable work against the historical disadvantages that many Southerners have grown up with. Their original aim was to monitor and pursue legal action against organized racism, both in government and in groups like the Klan. I would certainly trust their research.

[eta cross-posted with ToujoursDan]

[ 04. August 2012, 01:28: Message edited by: Antisocial Alto ]

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well he did say allowing persons of the same sex to marry "invites God's judgment on our nation." Other than that, no.

He didn't though.

Yes he did say that. It's a direct quote, FFS.

--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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quote:
Originally posted by Antisocial Alto:
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Your definition of them as a 'recognised hate group' comes from a body whose aim is to promote gay rights.

Really, the only gay rights SPLC is promoting are the rights to be employed, to have housing, to not get beaten up or killed and to not have their kids taken away. They're hardly ACT!Up.

SPLC (the Southern Poverty Law Center) is a well-regarded nonprofit in the US- they have done valuable work against the historical disadvantages that many Southerners have grown up with. Their original aim was to monitor and pursue legal action against organized racism, both in government and in groups like the Klan. I would certainly trust their research.

[eta cross-posted with ToujoursDan]

The FBI trusts their research. They use the SPLC as a primary resource to track and monitor hate groups in this country.

Johnny S. said:
quote:
The reason why I asked is that google is not my friend. By that I mean that I know precious little about America. I'd never even heard of the FRC until this new story. And I would never make a judgment call on them based on what google could tell me.
You've been making judgment calls (based on things you admit you know nothing about) since you started posting on this thread.

--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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Soror Magna
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
... He said something along the lines of children needing a mother and a father and if society redefines marriage then it invites God's judgment. In the interview that quote allegedly comes from he doesn't mention SSM once. ....

Of course, the main reason children might not have a mother and a father in his society is because heterosexual couples split up, but that's not what he's talking about. (Or what God is busy judging, apparently.) He doesn't have to mention SSM because that "mother & father" crap is a dog-whistle, a code. A modest proposal: If he really wanted every child in his society to have a mother and father, divorcees would automatically lose custody and their children would be fostered or adopted by a "traditional family". OliviaG
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130

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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Yes he did say that. It's a direct quote, FFS.

TourjoursDan has kind of beaten me to it, but here's a citation from the Christian Post:
quote:
Dan Cathy, the president and chief operating officer of Chick-fil-A, was invited to appear on the "The Ken Coleman Show," during when he revealed that those advocating for same-sex marriage will in turn bring "God's judgment" upon us.

"I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage,'" Cathy said. "I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about."

I think this is an outrageous, bigoted, unloving thing to say; as if we Christians should aim to become the 'high priests of Caesar's court'. (Phrase nicked from Greg Boyd's blog. More of my thoughts on this here.)

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Niteowl

Hopeless Insomniac
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Edited as it could be interpreted as jr. hosting.

[ 04. August 2012, 02:34: Message edited by: Niteowl2 ]

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Johnny S
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# 12581

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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Yes he did say that. It's a direct quote, FFS.

No, he didn't. It is not a direct quote.

Listen to the interview for yourself (it starts around the 20 minute mark). The context of the quote is 'children growing up without a mum or dad'. If anything he seems to have single parent families in his sights.

Ken Coleman show

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Freddy
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# 365

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The drama continues: Gone too far?
quote:
Adam Smith, then the CFO of a medical supply firm, created a wave of interest on the Web when he posted a video of himself berating a Chick-fil-A worker at a drive-through window in Tucson, Ariz. Smith, who said he "just couldn't stand all the hate," wasn't exactly showing his sweet side.

Smith tells the employee, who offers him free water and wishes him a nice day, "I don't know how you live with yourself and work here. I don't understand it. This is a horrible corporation with horrible values. You deserve better." Smith's employer, Vante, was not impressed, stating in a press release that Smith no longer works for the company.

Tit-for-tat.

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
Yes he did say that. It's a direct quote, FFS.

No, he didn't. It is not a direct quote.

Listen to the interview for yourself (it starts around the 20 minute mark). The context of the quote is 'children growing up without a mum or dad'. If anything he seems to have single parent families in his sights.

Ken Coleman show

Yes it is a direct quote and you're being very disingenuous by asserting that he isn't saying anything about SSM. I opened a hell call for you because of this.

--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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leo
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According to this there is going to be a demonstration outside.

[ 04. August 2012, 17:49: Message edited by: Louise ]

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The drama continues: Gone too far?
quote:
Adam Smith, then the CFO of a medical supply firm, created a wave of interest on the Web when he posted a video of himself berating a Chick-fil-A worker at a drive-through window in Tucson, Ariz. Smith, who said he "just couldn't stand all the hate," wasn't exactly showing his sweet side.

Smith tells the employee, who offers him free water and wishes him a nice day, "I don't know how you live with yourself and work here. I don't understand it. This is a horrible corporation with horrible values. You deserve better." Smith's employer, Vante, was not impressed, stating in a press release that Smith no longer works for the company.

Tit-for-tat.
Yes, because the comments of one customer are exactly the same as Candy donating millions to anti-gay hate groups.


[Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
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Take out your frustration/annoyance with the corporation on a minimum-wage slave. Classy.

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Eliab
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
your reaction seems to confirm my initial thoughts about how the US is discussing SSM - neither side is listening at all.

Could you expand on that? What is it that the anti-SSM side are saying that isn't being heard and understood? And how is that pro-SSM side at fault for not listening? What should we be doing in order to empathise better? What sort of mutually acceptable resolution should we be looking for?

I will admit to feeling no small amount of contempt and loathing for the other side on this issue, but, unless I have utterly deceived myself, practically all of that is the result of having listened to them, read their petitions, looked at their websites, considered their arguments, and found absolutely nothing of substance except ignorance and dumb tribal loyalty being led by the nose by hate.

I didn't start off despising the other side. I started off thinking that it was rather sad and shocking that gay people couldn't marry, and thinking that the legislative moves in that direction were encouraging - but, being straight, I'm ashamed to say that it wasn't an issue that affected me that deeply. It was only when I started listening to my fellow Christians' lies and vitriol that I started wishing that they would die of the pox. Or (in my more charitable moments) that God would strike them dumb. That isn't because I was unwilling to listen. It's because I did listen, and everything I heard was vile.

If you know of a non-vile argument against SSM*, I'd like to see it.


(*as a basic minimum, this would include: not using the word "abomination", not putting homosexuality on a slippery slope to paedophilia, incest, polygamy and bestiality, not lying about how churches will be forced to marry gays, not implying that SSM will lead to hets rushing to the divorced courts to end their 'undermined' marriages, or forgetting how babies are made, not arguing (explicitly or implicitly) that non-Christians should be forced to follow (conservative) Christian sexual ethics, not cajoling Christians into opposing civil SSM by presenting it as necessary to defend Christian values, not misrepresenting the other side, and especially not employing the spectaculrly dense trick of saying that they are trying to redefine marriage, not telling lies about gay people, and not scare-mongering, sneering or showing prejudice. All of which have been done by the anti-SSM side, most of them on the Ship. See, I listened.)

[ 04. August 2012, 22:01: Message edited by: Eliab ]

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Organ Builder
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Eliab, you are a blessing.

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ToujoursDan

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[Overused]

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luvanddaisies

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quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
recognized hate group

What the rubbery fuck..?
I knew there were some who came up with stuff like that, but I thought they were virtually all in Westboro with Phred Phelps, and I honestly had no idea there were so many, and of some of the stuff that is cited there...
I don't understand - I really, honestly, genuinely don't - how they can come out with those things, and how someone would publicly associate themself with any of it.

I had no idea I was so naiive.

[ 05. August 2012, 01:26: Message edited by: luvanddaisies ]

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"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines, sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." (Mark Twain)

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ToujoursDan

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quote:
Originally posted by luvanddaisies:
quote:
Originally posted by ToujoursDan:
recognized hate group

What the rubbery fuck..?
I knew there were some who came up with stuff like that, but I thought they were virtually all in Westboro with Phred Phelps, and I honestly had no idea there were so many, and of some of the stuff that is cited there...
I don't understand - I really, honestly, genuinely don't - how they can come out with those things, and how someone would publicly associate themself with any of it.

I had no idea I was so naiive.

But remember, it's the gay community that are the mean, nasty, whiny bullies for protesting this and trying to make it stop. [Roll Eyes]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Izdaari:
IMO food, fast or otherwise, is all about the food and not about the politics.

And that attitude is why the USA continues to employ hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants to do jobs on farms that no US citizen would be allowed to because if they did they would sue the bollocks off of any employer who treated them like they treat the illegals.

Of course food is about politics because the production of food is about work and about land and about who owns the land and what could be more political than who owns the land?

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mousethief

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My apologies. INVITING God's judgment. I should have put "invites" in square brackets. What a great way to avoid actually discussing the REAL TOPIC, to pick on a slight and non-meaning-changing inaccuracy in a quote. Mea maxima culpa.

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
This is huge here, with long lines outside all the outlets. I didn't even know we had this chain in our area!

The issue for the people I've talked to is the effort to stamp out the restaurant chain just becuase the owner gave an opinion.

From the American Christian friends with whom I've talked on the issue, it does indeed seem to be about liberals bullying someone exercising their constituional freedom of speech rather than the issue of the donations ie: just another example of "when I state your opinion, it's freedom of speech, when I state my opinion, it's bigotry"; the funding of FRC doesn't seem to register on their radar.

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ToujoursDan

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The Constitutional Freedom of Speech only involves government interference in speech (viz., stating a political opinion can never lead to prosecution.) It has never meant that someone can say whatever they want without scrutiny, criticism or ridicule, or without personal or professional consequences.

It's quite bizarre that so-called conservatives who often treat the Constitution like it was handed down by God to America's prophets - the founding Fathers, can't understand this basic principle.

[ 06. August 2012, 13:59: Message edited by: ToujoursDan ]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
From the American Christian friends with whom I've talked on the issue, it does indeed seem to be about liberals bullying someone exercising their constituional freedom of speech rather than the issue of the donations ie: just another example of "when I state your opinion, it's freedom of speech, when I state my opinion, it's bigotry"; the funding of FRC doesn't seem to register on their radar.

As TjD pointed out, the First Amendment isn't a "get out of criticism free" card. This seems another example where pointing out when someone says something hateful is considered worse manners than saying hateful things in the first place.

And just exactly who are these "friends" who consider it worse to say something mean than to send someone to jail?

As an interesting read here's an account by a (closeted) gay Chick-fil-A employee of the sales rush last Wednesday. Bear in mind that she works in the kitchen, so most of the anti-gay comments cited came from her co-workers.

[ 06. August 2012, 14:33: Message edited by: Crœsos ]

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Matt Black

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I guess that one man's meat is another's poison and never the twain shall meet. It's partly, as I see it, about terminology used, whether it be 'abomination' on one side or 'bigotry' and 'hate crime' on the other. Whilst both sides persist in such polemic language, there is little or no opportunity for real dialogue.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
I guess that one man's meat is another's poison and never the twain shall meet. It's partly, as I see it, about terminology used, whether it be 'abomination' on one side or 'bigotry' and 'hate crime' on the other. Whilst both sides persist in such polemic language, there is little or no opportunity for real dialogue.

I'm not sure there's a compromise position between "homosexuals should be sent to jail" and "homosexuals shouldn't be sent to jail". What does the middle ground between those positions even look like? Gays should be sentenced to community service?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Matt Black

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Er...I didn't mention anything about jail.

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Did you miss the bit about the FRC?

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Matt Black

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No. Did you miss the bit where I referred to 'abomination'? [Confused]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
No. Did you miss the bit where I referred to 'abomination'? [Confused]

Yes, we all saw you trying to change the subject from attempts to change the laws of the U.S. to how everything would be peaches and cream if only people would use nice language about criminalizing homosexuality (or in reaction to others attempts to redefine them as criminals).

I'm not sure why this "why can't you be polite about my attempts to harm you?" rhetoric is so popular, but it does crop up frequently.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Someone calling me an abomination doesn't really bother me very much. Someone working to put people like me in another country to death--that concerns me a bit. Someone working to re-criminalize homosexuality in my own country--that concerns me a bit, too.

I think that was Croesos' point. It's not just the rhetoric that matters--it's the actions. As I said on the Hell thread, Dan Cathy could preach his views all he wants and I wouldn't have a problem eating at a CFA franchise. When a portion of the money I would spend (admittedly a minuscule portion) goes to his massive grants to an organization which promotes evil, I won't eat there.

For all the complaints some American Christians have made about the concept of a boycott when used against CFA, they haven't had any problem using it against companies they consider gay-friendly. That is their right--they can spend their money where they wish. They can then hardly complain if I do the same.

x-posted with Croesos, who made his own points clear very nicely without any help from me.

[ 06. August 2012, 15:44: Message edited by: Organ Builder ]

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Matt Black

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
No. Did you miss the bit where I referred to 'abomination'? [Confused]

Yes, we all saw you trying to change the subject from attempts to change the laws of the U.S. to how everything would be peaches and cream if only people would use nice language about criminalizing homosexuality (or in reaction to others attempts to redefine them as criminals).

I'm not sure why this "why can't you be polite about my attempts to harm you?" rhetoric is so popular, but it does crop up frequently.

WTF? [Confused]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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ToujoursDan

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quote:
Whilst both sides persist in such polemic language, there is little or no opportunity for real dialogue.
I don't think there can be much dialogue between people who want to be left alone and treated like everyone else, and those who are actively working to marginalize them through words and actions.

It's a bit like an traumatized wife that if only she was nicer to her abusing husband, the violence would stop.

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Matt Black

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Dunno. ISTM that Side A is wanting Side B to change the way it acts and Side B is wanting Side A to change the way it thinks and believes. That for me is what it boils down to; donations to the likes of the FRC, deplorable as they are in their misguided way to try to achieve the former, are a spin-off (albeit an important and contemnible one) from that major issue.

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Matt Black

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Sorry for double post but, for the record, I agree that (a) FRC seem like a bunch of bastards and (b) that we straights were busy 'redefining marriage' long before Teh Gayz came along to have a go; as a divorcé I have a small timber forest in my eye there....

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The Great Gumby

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Dunno. ISTM that Side A is wanting Side B to change the way it acts and Side B is wanting Side A to change the way it thinks and believes.

Hang on a bit - let's stop dealing in broad-brush generalisations. Side A is trying to criminalise consensual adult sex. Side B is telling them that's vile and intolerant. I'm not seeing a whole lot of equivalence there.
quote:
That for me is what it boils down to; donations to the likes of the FRC, deplorable as they are in their misguided way to try to achieve the former, are a spin-off (albeit an important and contemnible one) from that major issue.
A spin-off? You think it's a spin-off that Cathy's giving money to a backward, bigoted group like the FRC? If someone wanted to make it illegal for you to sleep with your wife, I doubt you'd view it as a mere spin-off, important or not.

Here's the deal, conservatives. If you don't want to be called bigots, stop supporting bigoted actions. Don't create this false equivalence between bigots and the people who point out their bigotry. If their views and actions are so contemptible, actually speak out against them rather than brushing them aside so you can criticise people for their intolerant response to bigotry.

The real issue here is the tribalism that leads conservatives to cast around for ways to deflect criticism for even outright and unambiguous bigots like FRC, because they're on the right side. I've seen quite a lot of that recently, including on this thread.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

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Matt Black

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Those in Side A who are supporting FRC are wronger than a wrong thing on a wrong day and you are correct, there is no equivalence there. But there are also those in Side A who are wanting to say to Side B that they believe that what Side B are doing is wrong. There's far more equivalence there to my mind.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Here's the deal, conservatives. If you don't want to be called bigots, stop supporting bigoted actions. Don't create this false equivalence between bigots and the people who point out their bigotry. If their views and actions are so contemptible, actually speak out against them rather than brushing them aside so you can criticise people for their intolerant response to bigotry.

The real issue here is the tribalism that leads conservatives to cast around for ways to deflect criticism for even outright and unambiguous bigots like FRC, because they're on the right side.
I've seen quite a lot of that recently, including on this thread.

This kind of thing has been dubbed NALT Christianity, where NALT stands for Not All Like That. Basically Christians who spend a lot of time lecturing those who point out how heinous groups like the FRC are that "Not All Christians are Like That". For whatever reason, NALTs spend a lot less time lecturing folks like the FRC in this way.

An example:

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Those in Side A who are supporting FRC are wronger than a wrong thing on a wrong day and you are correct, there is no equivalence there. But . . .

There's always a "but", isn't there? There doesn't seem to be any way to condemn the FRC without also including some kind of backhanded condemnation of their critics.

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
. . . there are also those in Side A who are wanting to say to Side B that they believe that what Side B are doing is wrong. There's far more equivalence there to my mind.

See, Not All Christians are Like That! Some just want to lecture you on how you're doing sex wrong. And you know what? Moral scolds with some variant of that line have been around (and ignored) since before the missionary position got its nickname. This usually gets a big "so what?" from whoever they're lecturing, but that doesn't feed the persecution complex these scolds usually have, so they translate ignoring them as some kind of oppression or hate.

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