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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Homosexual Attraction: The Power of a Pastor's Testimony
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Vaughan Roberts, Rector of St Ebb's Church, Oxford speaks about his ongoing experience of homosexual attraction.
This, I think, is a very brave step for Vaughan to make. Now, I know that the subject matter itself is considered a Dead Horse but I wonder if there is room for a conversation about how this story will play out online, offline, in the church, outside the church? For example, the article is already being tweeted and blogged about favourably by conservative evangelicals. I haven't seen anything negative from that camp as yet, but it might come.
Has anyone got any examples of reactions from other theological camps, tweeters, bloggers etc?
How do you think Vaughan's testimony will be/should be received in the wider church?
What sort of reaction do you predict from those in the church who think differently to him?
Is this article a sign that Evangelicals are beginning to distill a clearer, fairer and more biblically robust pastoral position on the issue? Or is it about something else? How do you see it?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
[attempting to step around the fossil mesohippus]
I'm vaguely associated with http://im-sorry.org.uk/# - my feelings are that there is indeed a move within evangelicalism, but it's the move which Vaughan says saddens him:
quote:
Certainly. I pray for them every Monday from a list that is divided in two: those who continue to seek to be faithful to the Bible’s teaching that the only right context for sexual intercourse is in a marriage between a man and a woman and those who have moved away from that view. Sadly the second group is growing.
And I can't escape the fact that whilst it saddens him it gladdens me. Most of the evangelicals I know are moving in that direction. That may be a cause of sadness for traditionalists, and how the resulting tension (which is no different to the tension we have in the CofE over exactly the same issue) will play out I do not know.
I'm not sure I see anything in what Vaughan is saying that hasn't been what conservative evangelicals have been saying back from even when I was one of them - there was the odd one or two who claimed that people needed to lose their orientation to be acceptable to God, but they were in the minority and argued against quite strongly.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
There is certainly "something else" in this - that there is a lot more acceptance within the church of people with same-sex attraction.
This acceptance does not come from within the church. It comes from without. Roberts makes the point himself that in a previous book only six years previously, he excised references to his own same-sex attraction.
That he now feels able to say that he experiences same-sex attraction is due to changing attitudes (hah!) in wider society, and not within conservative evangelicalism, where it's still very difficult to be 'out', whether or not you're celibate.
There will now be frantic googling to see what Roberts has said in the past about homosexuality. It'll be interesting to see how his peers in Reform etc treat him.
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Forward the New Republic
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
I read VR's statement with interest. I agree with what Karl says above; there does seem to me to be another point to which I don't see VR attending. That is whether, in giving this interview with the hope of offering help and hope to fellow Christians who are attracted to persons of the same sex, he is not inadvertently putting some of those fellow Christians in the way of temptation. You know, the brethren who are specifically attracted to VR. It may be that, in St Ebbe's there are now men thinking, 'Perhaps he will look at me . Perhaps he feels what I feel for him.'
Incidentally, is VR married to a woman? That would also have a bearing on this particular testimony.
[ 27. September 2012, 09:27: Message edited by: Amos ]
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
My take is that I've long thought it odd how Evangelicals make statements about homosexual activity and then don't seem to want to go an extra step and offer systems for gay people to exist celibately. That to me would at least have some integrity.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Agreed. More generally, the whole Reformation tradition seems to have downplayed the value of celibacy, and it's high time we ditched that particular piece of 16th century baggage.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Agreed. More generally, the whole Reformation tradition seems to have downplayed the value of celibacy, and it's high time we ditched that particular piece of 16th century baggage.
Which bit's the baggage? Downplaying celibacy, or celibacy?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
My take is that I've long thought it odd how Evangelicals make statements about homosexual activity and then don't seem to want to go an extra step and offer systems for gay people to exist celibately. That to me would at least have some integrity.
I think Roberts suggests that his "Advisory Group" offers him a system which helps him remain celibate. So it looks as if St Ebb's at least has a relational way of keeping its pastor celibate. How that might work for the rank and file I don't know, but Roberts says that some kind of 'support group' is being formed in his church for people who, like him, experience same sex attraction.
[ 27. September 2012, 09:46: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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Godric
Apprentice
# 17135
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Posted
OK, this is all very interesting and the discussion is a sensitive and very personal account of a difficult road but what is this saying about sex, sexuality and the teaching of the Church in public ministry? Can a clergyman be "In and against the Church" or is s/he ultimately disloyal to one belief or another?
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I write on funerals and burials http://godsacre.blogspot.co.uk/
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Agreed. More generally, the whole Reformation tradition seems to have downplayed the value of celibacy, and it's high time we ditched that particular piece of 16th century baggage.
Which bit's the baggage? Downplaying celibacy, or celibacy?
The former, you naughty person!
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Sorry, I don't quite get your question Godric.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I think Roberts suggests that his "Advisory Group" offers him a system which helps him remain celibate. So it looks as if St Ebb's at least has a relational way of keeping its pastor celibate. How that might work for the rank and file I don't know, but Roberts says that their some kind of 'support group' being formed in his church for people who experience same sex attraction.
Evangelical straight people seem sometimes to imply that gay people have no need for strong relationships or for living with other people. The headlong rush into support for heterosexual marriage and 2.4 children seems to put everyone else as an also-ran (to badly mangle metaphors, I'm sorry about that).
I think that is partly caused by the breakdown in community, which has direct influences from the individualism of the faith propagated by Evangelicalism. I have relatives of my great-grandparents generation who lived with their siblings until old age. Further back into history, we have models of religious communities of strong relationships which were not (well... I'm assuming not, I suppose) about sexual relations. For example the Dutch/Belgian Beguines.
I'm not trying to suggest all gay people would appreciate this, but I am saying that those who hold onto a celibate model of lifestyle to be consistent with an Evangelical understanding of their faith are not-even-slightly assisted by the church to lead celibate lives.
[ 27. September 2012, 09:57: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
I think Roberts suggests that his "Advisory Group" offers him a system which helps him remain celibate. So it looks as if St Ebb's at least has a relational way of keeping its pastor celibate.
My wife could give them some advice.
Fly Safe. Pyx_e
p.s. I look at this stuff in the same way I watch guys doing plate spinning tricks. Sooner or later one of the plates is gonna fall. Which of course is half the fun. It's nice to see VR has some other people spinning his plates for him. But is is cheating, on his part and on theirs.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
p.p.s what sort of thing is going on when you put people in columns to pray for them ????? It is just crazy making. But for the sake of experience VR is now in a column all on his own, he is in the "giving massages in a turkish bath, in Turkey" column.
(gotta love the three minute edit)
[ 27. September 2012, 10:05: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Further to this, evangelical churches (certainly the CE ones I've attended) have always put subtle and sometimes not-so-subtle pressure on their single late teens and early twenties people to pair off and marry.
It'd be a change for the better if they backed off from this. I'm well past this now, but I'd much rather my kids didn't have something else to feel anxious about.
(x-posted with Pyx_e)
[ 27. September 2012, 10:07: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
What on earth are you talking about Pyx_e?
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
What on earth are you talking about Pyx_e?
Be more specific please.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I think Roberts suggests that his "Advisory Group" offers him a system which helps him remain celibate. So it looks as if St Ebb's at least has a relational way of keeping its pastor celibate. How that might work for the rank and file I don't know, but Roberts says that their some kind of 'support group' being formed in his church for people who experience same sex attraction.
I'm not trying to suggest all gay people would appreciate this, but I am saying that those who hold onto a celibate model of lifestyle to be consistent with an Evangelical understanding of their faith are not-even-slightly assisted by the church to lead celibate lives.
You've clearly thought more about this than I have. I can appreciate what you're saying about the need for evangelicals who hold to VR's particular pastoral position to think more clearly about how to build genuine community at the heart of the church that genuinely includes same-sex attracted people. Do you think it is possible?
[ 27. September 2012, 10:13: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
You've clearly thought more about this than I have. I can appreciate what you're saying about the need for evangelicals who hold to VR's particular pastoral position to think more clearly about how to build genuine community at the heart of the church that genuinely includes same-sex attracted people. Do you think it is possible?
Possible - maybe. Likely - no.
I don't even how big a constituency of (let's say theologically-inclined-to-be) celibate gay Evangelicals there are. Being non-gay and a post-evangelical means that I'm not really in a position to find out.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
This, I think, is a very brave step for Vaughan to make. Now, I know that the subject matter itself is considered a Dead Horse but I wonder if there is room for a conversation about how this story will play out online, offline, in the church, outside the church? For example, the article is already being tweeted and blogged about favourably by conservative evangelicals. I haven't seen anything negative from that camp as yet, but it might come.
I doubt that anything negative will come.
My experience is that most conservative evangelicals are very comfortable with a person who admits to same sex attraction, so long as they are fighting it. Much of the church has moved on from the view that having same-sex attraction is any kind of choice. They take exactly the same view expressed in the article - that it's simply one of the battles with temptation one must face. It's a courageous struggle. It's "brave".
They only start having a problem with you if you say you're gay and okay with it.
[ 27. September 2012, 10:26: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
As you all know, all things of this nature are DH topics. Down you go.
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Oh, and the thing about the Advisory Group?
Yes. All very supportive. They'll sit around and pray for their afflicted brother.
And then probably they'll all go home and have sex with their wives.
The "support", again in my experience, doesn't actually tend to extend so far as bearing the burden with him. It consists of spiritually cheering from the sidelines and applauding one's bravery in suffering. But conservative evangelicals are thoroughly willing to provide THAT kind of support to their homosexual brothers.
(and sisters too, probably, but I'm personally familiar with the gay male struggler/straight male support dynamic - all very manly)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
And actually, I think there are a large number of people who are looking for some kind of greater commitment to church which is not on the same kind of level as a traditional religious order but is more than just warming the pew.
The need for models which go beyond worship services and Thursday night bible study is overwhelming. I can't really see why communities or households (or something) of celibate gay Evangelicals could not be a part of that kind of movement. The only restriction as far as I can see is the general screamishness of Evangelicals to the idea that there could be gay people who are not constantly in a form existential angst about being gay.
edited to add - sorry, delayed post etc..
[ 27. September 2012, 10:35: Message edited by: the long ranger ]
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
What on earth are you talking about Pyx_e?
Be more specific please.
I think he means your 1000 post.
[ETA - Orfeo, you have far too rose-tinted a view of heterosexual sexual relationships!]
[ 27. September 2012, 11:06: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Agreed. More generally, the whole Reformation tradition seems to have downplayed the value of celibacy, and it's high time we ditched that particular piece of 16th century baggage.
True. It's a bit of the New Testament and the Fathers that they've switched off.
However, how relevant would the way other traditions have engaged with this be for managing this particular problem? Having a holy mountain consecrated to the Blessed Virgin, accessible only by boat and to which women are not admitted, might be merely the most thorough way of managing the more usual source of temptation. One might imagine that it's less useful for managing temptation in its less expected form.
Orders of sisters have always been assiduous to discourage, for entirely understandable reasons, both too close a friendship with an attendant priest and what are called 'particular friendships' between sisters.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
My experience is that most conservative evangelicals are very comfortable with a person who admits to same sex attraction, so long as they are fighting it. Much of the church has moved on from the view that having same-sex attraction is any kind of choice. They take exactly the same view expressed in the article - that it's simply one of the battles with temptation one must face. It's a courageous struggle. It's "brave".
They only start having a problem with you if you say you're gay and okay with it.
Nail. Head.
Jeffrey John was beyond the pale despite his celibacy because he doesn't see his sexuality as a problem to be solved, or a battle to be won. Vaughan Roberts would face the same reaction if he said he was gay and proud, rather than "struggling" with it.
As Karl says, the real movement in evangelicalism is one which is leaving Roberts and his attitudes behind.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
[ETA - Orfeo, you have far too rose-tinted a view of heterosexual sexual relationships!]
If you're having any sex at all, you're still better off than the homosexual who is told, or indeed believes, that he can't ever have licit sex. EVER.
[ 27. September 2012, 11:36: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290
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Posted
hmm, sounds like *Hate the Sin, Love the Sinner* with some extra words imo.
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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
When does the church — Evangelical, Pentecostal, Mainline Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, whatever — move away from this "love the sinner hate the sin" model to a "love the person, let God deal with the sin if any" model? When does it condemn people who go around making life difficult for people with same-sex attraction, or who call them "abominations"? Whether or not one thinks that sexual relations with a person of the same sex are licit, one has to treat all people with respect and grace and with a good dollop of MYOFB about their supposed sins. We're all a bunch of Grand Inquisitors putting people on a metaphorical rack if they are tempted to sins, especially sins that we ourselves are not tempted to. Gluttons and gossips saying vicious things about gays: when will we address this openly?
And yes I realize there's a bit of circularity here. But sometimes we have to wade into hypocritical waters to save the drowning. "Oh I shouldn't 'judge' those people throwing rocks at that man" doesn't save that man from being stoned to death. And gay people are being stoned to the death of suicide every day around us by the judgmental words and deeds of self-proclaimed Christians.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Dead right, mousethief.
But I have a lot of sympathy for the Revd Mr Roberts. It can't be easy dealing with the desire to fuck other men, when so many of those other men think he should go fuck himself.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
One interesting feature of the article in the OP is that the interviewer is the senior pastor of Eden Baptist Church in Cambridge. A former senior pastor of that place was Roy Clements, who stepped down in 1999 and left his wife when he revealed that he was gay. Although he continues to write, I think that he has been shunned by the evangelical constituency.
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
A more interesting example perhaps would be Richard Coles; salient paragraph from the Wiki entry is here:
quote:
Coles is openly gay and lives with his partner in a celibate relationship, in respect for the current rules within the Church of England. Commenting on the current Church of England policy on same-sex relationships for clergy, Coles told The Daily Telegraph, ‘‘It’s not as I would have it, but then it’s not about me.’’
I would like to think that my fellow conservatives would not have a problem with this as there is no same-sex sexual activity going on here, but the Jeffrey John debacle would unfortunately suggest otherwise...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
We're all a bunch of Grand Inquisitors putting people on a metaphorical rack if they are tempted to sins, especially sins that we ourselves are not tempted to. Gluttons and gossips saying vicious things about gays: when will we address this openly?
Indeed. God still loves bigots, but they're objectively disordered, and the gravity of their sin is such that they should not be allowed to hold a position of responsibility in the church until they have undergone a thorough process of repentance and reconciliation.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
The Long Ranger writes:
quote:
I can't really see why communities or households (or something) of celibate gay Evangelicals could not be a part of that kind of movement.
I think experience says that communities of celibate anything - unless they genuinely all have a vocation to celibacy tend to end up not being so very celibate. Hunky young gay Evangelical men all being celibate together? I don't think so.
The problem with the VR approach is that there is no possible discenrment of whether he or anyone else has such a vocation. Celibacy is manadatory - and that is not biblical.
I am glad to see him peek out of his closet though - I think there are loads more in there with him. But it is ever so dark in there doing Bible Study 24/7 - so none of them can see who each of them is. And the denial in the community is so great that even the ones with functioning gaydar have no chance to get it calibrated properly - so that any gaydar identification of another SSA chap is immediately dismissed because "of course he can't be - he leads such super Bible Studies".
Believe me - I know - I was one of them.
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
Matt Black says
quote:
I would like to think that my fellow conservatives would not have a problem with this as there is no same-sex sexual activity going on here, but the Jeffrey John debacle would unfortunately suggest otherwise...
I'll tell you, Matt, why the con evos will have a problem with the likes of RC. As your quotation of him demonstrates, he is not exactly thrilled with the official position. Nor is he expressing ongoing and continual repentance about the time when he and his bloke were having gay sex (whatever that means - remember the con evo obsession is about one kind of gay sex, which lots of gay peole don't have at all).
For the real hardliners, unless there is that utter note of rejection and contrition in anything one might say about one's previous "lifestyle", then you are fair game for their criticism and judgement. That is why the JJ debacle is an ongoing one - he may be celibate now (though why he or RC are prepared to tell other people what goes on in their bedrooms goodness only knows) - but he wasn't, and he will not say that it was all bad.
I have no hopes that the official position will change - but until it does I hope no more prominent clergy will allow themselves to be pushed into making declarations about their sexual activity or otherwise - we ask no such thing of heterosexual clergy - and I have known loads of those with interesting things to hide from public gaze.
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aelred of Rievaulx:
I think experience says that communities of celibate anything - unless they genuinely all have a vocation to celibacy tend to end up not being so very celibate. Hunky young gay Evangelical men all being celibate together? I don't think so.
Maybe. Dunno, I guess it depends how important it is to you to have a theology that is actionable. That you or others have not been able to do it is largely irrelevant.
quote:
The problem with the VR approach is that there is no possible discenrment of whether he or anyone else has such a vocation. Celibacy is manadatory - and that is not biblical.
Irrevelevant. It matters not one jot whether you or I think it is biblical, necessary or important. The point is that these evangelical gay people think it is important and the church is not helping. What other people think is up to them. I don't think vocation comes into it, but then I largely do not believe in religious vocation anyway.
quote:
I am glad to see him peek out of his closet though - I think there are loads more in there with him. But it is ever so dark in there doing Bible Study 24/7 - so none of them can see who each of them is. And the denial in the community is so great that even the ones with functioning gaydar have no chance to get it calibrated properly - so that any gaydar identification of another SSA chap is immediately dismissed because "of course he can't be - he leads such super Bible Studies".
Again, irrelevant and just showing your prejudice. Maybe it is just too much and that being a celibate evangelical gay is not possible, I have no idea. But if the church truly believes it is possible the responsibility is upon them to make every effort to help. It isn't my belief, but the least anyone can expect of others is to live up to their own beliefs.
quote:
Believe me - I know - I was one of them.
Then, honestly, you are the wrong person to ask. You were one, you are not now, you don't really have a goose in this fight. According to you, the best that a person in this situation can do is lose the theology. Which is a fair opinion, but not one that people in this situation hold.
In all likelihood many will change their theology. But again, that is really not the point.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Aelred of Rievaulx
Shipmate
# 16860
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Posted
Long Ranger -
Telling me my view of what he is about is irrelevant is kind of like how con evos treat all and any LGBT people who don't subscribe to their view of "SSA people". See the comments above about how VR would probably be treated if he was not "struggling against SSA" - see how they treated poor Roy Clements. Shut the dissenting voices up and then exclude them.
He is welcome to do exactly as he is doing and to find and sustain any number of communities of Evangelcial people who are "SSA" in celibacy. I have no beef with that at all.
What I do have a beef with is the claim that their view is the only Christian way to handle this personal moral challenge - that it is the only Biblical way - and that people like me who think that being gay is a minority sexuality but entirely normal and that working out our personal relationships in a fully sexual and yet faithful and committed way is wrong and displeasing to God.
Their perspective tells me that I am "irrelevant" - rather as you have.
I am simply saying that while I respect entirely their right to deal with this matter in the kinds of way which might include communities of celibate people resisting their "SSA" together - experience (of watching and knowing some people who tried precisely this in the 1970s) tells me that this is not likely to succeed.
A future that includes us all remaining in fellowship is not likely to be found in a stand-off that means that the opposite sides of this question can't listen to each other because each tells the other they are irrelevant. No one is irrelevant - and nor are their views.
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In friendship are joined honor and charm, truth and joy, sweetness and good-will, affection and action. And all these take their beginning from Christ, advance through Christ, and are perfected in Christ.
Posts: 136 | From: English Midlands | Registered: Jan 2012
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
Yet you appear to be saying - correct me if I'm wrong - that RC's view and methodology of working out his orientation is irrelevant. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
[ 28. September 2012, 11:47: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Whether or not one thinks that sexual relations with a person of the same sex are licit, one has to treat all people with respect and grace and with a good dollop of MYOFB about their supposed sins. We're all a bunch of Grand Inquisitors putting people on a metaphorical rack if they are tempted to sins, especially sins that we ourselves are not tempted to. [...]
Sometimes we have to wade into hypocritical waters to save the drowning. "Oh I shouldn't 'judge' those people throwing rocks at that man" doesn't save that man from being stoned to death. And gay people are being stoned to the death of suicide every day around us by the judgmental words and deeds of self-proclaimed Christians.
Evangelicalism has traditionally expected church members to submit to exacting scrutiny of their lives; if you want to be left in peace, it doesn't make much sense to belong to an evangelical church.
The modern mainstream church is in a quandry, though, and I agree that there's a bit of hypocrisy about. Church leaders may feel a good amount of sympathy for gay people, but in an age of church decline, they're also quite wary of doing things that might to drive away the few remaining congregants they have left, without any guarantee of replacing them. So they try to take the middle path - and end up leaving both conservative evangelicals and committed liberals cold.
We can argue about judgementalism and cruelty, but I don't see how things will change in the current demoralising circumstances of church decline. In the UK, the most liberal churches remain very small. In the USA the liberal churches seem to be doing relatively well, though, despite this website's obsession with 'evangelicals'.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
@Aelred of Rievaulx - you need to lose the persecution complex. In fact, I agree with you.
Unless you are a gay evangelical Christian who believes celibacy is important, you are irrelevant to the discussion of how one lives as a celibate gay evangelical Christian. That is not a point of persecution but of fact.
That celibacy is desirable or not, even if it is possible or not, is not a relevant part of the discussion. And, more to the point, why should they even ask you as a non-celibate (or at least a person that thinks celibacy is not credible for people in that position)?
In the same way, one might see young British Muslims discussing how to be a modern British teenager and a Muslim. If they have decided that they do not want to give up being British or being a Muslim, then someone who has emigrated to Pakistan or is an ex-Muslim has very little impact on the debate - other than to claim that the two things are untenable.
I think celibate evangelical Christians are entitled to decide for themselves (and experiment with) being celibate. I think if they want to do that, then to be consistent with their professed theology then they should be seeking forms of living that support that profession. I can't see anything in that which is a) unreasonable b) forcing LTGB people to conform to a belief they don't want to or c) offensive.
Very possibly it is not tenable. But why should they listen to you or I if we're not also gay evangelicals who think that celibacy is important?
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
Perhaps he should stop being so tortured within himself and get onto GRINDR (which I am told is a very good site for gay, bi, or curious men) and get some fun, chat, hookups, bit on the side, or whatever would release the valve of his confusion. Thwe site is particularly good as a mobile phone app, so it would be easy to get some passing trade.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh, and the thing about the Advisory Group?
Yes. All very supportive. They'll sit around and pray for their afflicted brother.
And then probably they'll all go home and have sex with their wives.
The "support", again in my experience, doesn't actually tend to extend so far as bearing the burden with him. It consists of spiritually cheering from the sidelines and applauding one's bravery in suffering. But conservative evangelicals are thoroughly willing to provide THAT kind of support to their homosexual brothers.
(and sisters too, probably, but I'm personally familiar with the gay male struggler/straight male support dynamic - all very manly)
That's extremely binary. I think Vaughan is trying to break that stereotype - that the world can be divided easily into straight people and gay people. Rather he would view the advisory group as a group of sinners each struggling with their faith and their sin, and supporting each other. From Vaughan's article I'd be astonished if he saw it as a bunch of sraight men telling a gay man what to do.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
@Aelred of Rievaulx - you need to lose the persecution complex. In fact, I agree with you.
Unless you are a gay evangelical Christian who believes celibacy is important, you are irrelevant to the discussion of how one lives as a celibate gay evangelical Christian. That is not a point of persecution but of fact.
I'm not sure, but I don't think you get to say who can or cannot have a say on a ship thread, or who should or should not take them seriously. This is a fact.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
That's true. I didn't mean to imply that the opinion was unimportant (nor even that it wasn't worth saying on this thread) just irrelevant.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
That's true. I didn't mean to imply that the opinion was unimportant (nor even that it wasn't worth saying on this thread) just irrelevant.
It's not unimportant, it's just irrelevant. Um. Er. Ah. I mean. Uh. WTF?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
If someone asks for the best recipes for pancakes and someone says they don't like pancakes and all batter should be used for waffles - it can be legitimately said to be interesting, or true even, but irrelevant.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
If someone asks for the best recipes for pancakes and someone says they don't like pancakes and all batter should be used for waffles - it can be legitimately said to be interesting, or true even, but irrelevant.
But that's not what's going on here. What's going on here is you're saying, YOUR opinion, because of who you are, is not relevant. You have no say. No one need listen to your opinion because you're not in such-and-such a group.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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the long ranger
Shipmate
# 17109
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Posted
Well, I'm sorry I don't think it is relevant. For the reasons I've explained above.
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"..into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth,” “But Rabbi, how can this happen for those who have no teeth?”
"..If some have no teeth, then teeth will be provided.”
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Oh, and the thing about the Advisory Group?
Yes. All very supportive. They'll sit around and pray for their afflicted brother.
And then probably they'll all go home and have sex with their wives.
The "support", again in my experience, doesn't actually tend to extend so far as bearing the burden with him. It consists of spiritually cheering from the sidelines and applauding one's bravery in suffering.
That's it in a nutshell-- well said. I missed any reference in the interview to his own marital status. I can take it better from someone who walks the walk (and, it would seem, gives up any craving for the purple) as well as talking the talk. If he is happily married, then either his homosexual attractions are fairly incidental, or his wife is an unusually long-suffering woman, such as it can hardly be one's duty to unearth. And if he is unhappily married because he never told her before tying the knot, "oh, by the way, I actually like guys a lot better," I wouldn't give him the time of day.
It remains a mystery to me why Saint Paul, while counseling universal celibacy, would sigh and allow a safety valve for concupiscence, but only to some.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the long ranger:
Well, I'm sorry I don't think it is relevant. For the reasons I've explained above.
Who are you to tell other people they're not relevant?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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