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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Inclusive language hymns
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The implication for me is that the time it won't matter is sometime in the future.
When I needed a neighbour were you there,
against
And the creed and the colour won't matter.
The question is 'when' won't it matter?
In the context of judgment - inasmuch as ye did it unto the least of these, is it correct to say that the creed we follow will not matter at all?
I really have to resist the idea of salvation by charitable works and it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you were nice to people you'll pass muster..
Matthew 7.21:
‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven.'
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The implication for me is that the time it won't matter is sometime in the future.
When I needed a neighbour were you there,
against
And the creed and the colour won't matter.
The question is 'when' won't it matter?
In the context of judgment - inasmuch as ye did it unto the least of these, is it correct to say that the creed we follow will not matter at all?
I really have to resist the idea of salvation by charitable works and it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you were nice to people you'll pass muster..
It sounds better to me than salvation by assent to the "right" doctrines.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
I thought it was 'don't matter' except in the final verse which is "Wherever you travel, I'll be there".
Many years since I sung this, and it still confuses me. Presumably the speaker is Jesus? (Whatever you did for the least of these...)
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
An organist friend tried to object to a choice of The ink is black, the page is white for a Family Service on the grounds that it was entirely secular and it didn't relate to the readings for the Sunday.
He was given a formal warning and told that any more such objections would result in his being sacked.
Really inclusive, eh?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Committee? Is outrage!
No no no. leo misspoke. When he said "committee" he really meant "ministry team". Does that make it better? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I really have to resist the idea of salvation by charitable works and it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you were nice to people you'll pass muster..
That's why I'm not a protestant. If someone is self sacrificial loving to others, Christ is with them. The basic sacramental principle. Christ is present in this embodied world.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by leo quote:
Better to have the organist involved in whatever committee chooses the hymns.
Ours is - we meet every 3 months - music director, vicar, a churchwarden and me.
And you've had what training in liturgical music? And presumably the churchwarden was also sent on a suitable course? And the Vicar is musical, keeps up-to-date with music practice and developments in contemporary music?
No, calling this sort of nonsense a 'ministry team' does not make it better.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by leo quote:
Better to have the organist involved in whatever committee chooses the hymns.
Ours is - we meet every 3 months - music director, vicar, a churchwarden and me.
And you've had what training in liturgical music? And presumably the churchwarden was also sent on a suitable course? And the Vicar is musical, keeps up-to-date with music practice and developments in contemporary music?
No, calling this sort of nonsense a 'ministry team' does not make it better.
There's presumably a bit more to this than an "is this good music question"... assuming that music specialists are the best people to answer the question "is this good music?", which is, perhaps, questionable...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
Posts: 889 | From: Surrey Heath (England) | Registered: Jun 2012
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by leo quote:
Better to have the organist involved in whatever committee chooses the hymns.
Ours is - we meet every 3 months - music director, vicar, a churchwarden and me.
And you've had what training in liturgical music? And presumably the churchwarden was also sent on a suitable course? And the Vicar is musical, keeps up-to-date with music practice and developments in contemporary music?
No, calling this sort of nonsense a 'ministry team' does not make it better.
So the only possible way of gaining aptitude in something is a formal course? A lifetime of singing hymns and participating in worship couldn't be good enough for you?
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The implication for me is that the time it won't matter is sometime in the future.
When I needed a neighbour were you there,
against
And the creed and the colour won't matter.
The question is 'when' won't it matter?
In the context of judgment - inasmuch as ye did it unto the least of these, is it correct to say that the creed we follow will not matter at all?
I really have to resist the idea of salvation by charitable works and it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you were nice to people you'll pass muster..
It sounds better to me than salvation by assent to the "right" doctrines.
Starting a new thread in Purgatory on this topic! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Basilica quote:
So the only possible way of gaining aptitude in something is a formal course? A lifetime of singing hymns and participating in worship couldn't be good enough for you?
Not necessarily, no.
But aptitude is not the same as ability or breadth of knowledge.
A lifetime of singing hymns and participating in worship can mean a person is only exposed to one type of liturgical music, or even just one period of one type of music.
As a worshipper, I know which sort of music I prefer; as a musician I know which is the best I can hope to achieve at my present crib - and the two aren't the same, although there is a small window of overlap.
But in my time as an organist I've been in post in places where the musical preference was very far from my preference: and what a professional does is aim to choose the best available and achievable with the resources at hand. Believe me, I've spent long hours endeavouring to get older members of music groups more relaxed about rhythm so that the worship songs which were the preferred style of the church sounded as good as possible. Privately it made me shudder but not a single member of the group, or the priest in charge, had the faintest inkling of my own musical preferences until they came to the next church where I was in post.
If a committee is made up of people all of the same era, all from the same worshipping background, it may be that they are unaware of new developments which may suit their own worship style.
In the case of clergy, many of the rows between musicians and clergy that hit the national press can be put down to clergy being insensitive to musical style and attempting to put in place something that is not only unwanted but frequently unsuitable for the congregation they inherit. That is not to say there shouldn't be change but IME situations like that frequently come down to a cleric who is so set on making changes they think will attract new people they forget about the needs of the existing congregation.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Musical style is only one part of it. Some would argue only a small part. What is much more important is that the choice of hymns fits the liturgy (which hymns to sing at which point in the service, and which texts reflect the lectionary readings of the day.) Obviously the professional musicians need to be consulted, but basically it is the task of the liturgist/ aka presiding priest.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
A lifetime of singing hymns and participating in worship can mean a person is only exposed to one type of liturgical music, or even just one period of one type of music.
Sadly the same can often apply to organists as well.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Sorry Angloid, but IME it is the musicians who worry about fitting hymns or songs to readings or worship themes.
Again, IME the most jarring choices of music have all been made by clergy.
I still shudder at the use of The Servant Song no fewer than 5 times in the same church between Passion Sunday and Good Friday. The same cleric also couldn't see anything wrong with the choice of Majesty and To God be the glory during the distribution of communion on Maundy Thursday.
To describe this particular cleric as a liturgist would be like describing a gerbil as a zoologist.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Musical style is only one part of it. Some would argue only a small part. What is much more important is that the choice of hymns fits the liturgy (which hymns to sing at which point in the service, and which texts reflect the lectionary readings of the day.) Obviously the professional musicians need to be consulted, but basically it is the task of the liturgist/ aka presiding priest.
Much this, but for us the music is part of the liturgy, and the hymns, motets and setting are chosen by the Rector to fit the season, the day, and the readings. Also to be able to be sung by the congregation. There's no use having a musically superb hymn if it can only be sung by a few professional musicians. The organist has pretty free play with the music before and the postlude.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Neither clergy nor musicians should be allowed unfettered access to the liturgy, in my opinion.
There are some clergy (but, again IMO, very few) who have the slightest clue about music.
And a good many (but by no means a majority) of "trained church musicians" who have a clue about the liturgy, at least the Anglican liturgy and what goes along with it, like the church year.
It's relatively easy for clergy to put their foot down, if they want to and if -- and many don't -- they realize there's a problem with the musician. It's almost impossible for the knowledgeable musician to deal with an ignorant priest, of whom there are a very large number indeed.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by leo quote:
Better to have the organist involved in whatever committee chooses the hymns.
Ours is - we meet every 3 months - music director, vicar, a churchwarden and me.
And you've had what training in liturgical music? And presumably the churchwarden was also sent on a suitable course? And the Vicar is musical, keeps up-to-date with music practice and developments in contemporary music?
No, calling this sort of nonsense a 'ministry team' does not make it better.
So presumably all organists have theological training then?
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
It is very rarely that I find myself disagreeing with l'organist and agreeing with Exclamation Mark, but on this occasion I do.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
The obvious approach here is to have dialogue: people with theological expertise, people with liturgical expertise, people with musical expertise. In a very few cases, this may be found all in one person. I know two or three such people! But in most contexts you're going to need a conversation.
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
The obvious approach here is to have dialogue: people with theological expertise, people with liturgical expertise, people with musical expertise. In a very few cases, this may be found all in one person. I know two or three such people! But in most contexts you're going to need a conversation.
That was my thought too, which is making me wonder what the problem is with leo's arrangement?
I've been on both sides of this debate; as a musician who had to put up with some... eccentric song-choosing practices (eg the minister who used to pick songs nobody knew just because he liked the look of the words, or the preacher who when leading the service announced all the songs, just not necessarily in the right order); and now, as one who chooses hymns and songs for our service (though I suspect this might be a different process in my tradition than it is in, say, an Anglican church). I've made some real clunkers of song choices in my time as a minister, but these (I hope!) have got less as I've spent time in this church and got to know the congregation, what works and what doesn't. There's little substitute for experience of a congregation in this. And help from the musicians, which I'm always grateful for.
So if the priest is in the habit of making bad choices for hymns, then surely helping him/her is better than just marginalizing them? A group like leo's would surely be an asset, as it would give the priest some guidance and help them to make better choices - and also help the musician(s) to understand where the priest is coming from, why s/he's making those particular choices and then enable them to be guided in better ways of reflecting those concerns?
If the priest outright refuses, then fair enough - it's dust-shaking-off time. But I'd have thought everyone's a winner with something like this?
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Sorry Angloid, but IME it is the musicians who worry about fitting hymns or songs to readings or worship themes.
Again, IME the most jarring choices of music have all been made by clergy.
I still shudder at the use of The Servant Song no fewer than 5 times in the same church between Passion Sunday and Good Friday. The same cleric also couldn't see anything wrong with the choice of Majesty and To God be the glory during the distribution of communion on Maundy Thursday.
To describe this particular cleric as a liturgist would be like describing a gerbil as a zoologist.
That is indeed a nightmare situation, L'organist, and I sympathise. I agree that there are many (and probably an increasing number of) clergy who are liturgically clueless. Likewise many organists (such as yourself) who are just the opposite. Having a sensitive appreciation of the power of liturgy should be a sine qua non for people in both roles.
However, whereas inept clergy have no excuse apart from their own ineptness, many parishes have to rely on musicians (who might be skilled musically) with little experience of or understanding of Christian worship. They are the sort of people I had in mind.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
EE: you ask what, if any, theological training I've had? Well, does growing up in a house with a CR trained priest, with a member of the Community living next door, and being taught the organ by someone who thought that organist training must include liturgical training count? And then going on to do courses in theology post graduation, not to mention a certain conservatoire's Church Music Studies Course.
By way of contrast, my current PinC had precisely one day per term of a 2 year course 'dedicated' to music in the liturgy - so 6 whole days. And before going forward to ordination training he was an '8 o'clocker' so had little experience of sung liturgy.
As for Gee D's point about whether or not hymns are singable by the congregation, I'd point to the nonsense of setting a hymn to the Londonderry Air which has a range well beyond the compass of most people, including a fair number in choirs - if you don't believe me you can find it in most hymnals. It is recommended that hymns for congregational singing go no lower than Middle C and no higher than an E +1 (that is a range of 1 tenth) and many congregations struggle with that: Londonderry has a range well beyond that, yet is regularly chosen by clergy "because people know it / love it".
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by L'Organist:
quote:
As for Gee D's point about whether or not hymns are singable by the congregation, I'd point to the nonsense of setting a hymn to the Londonderry Air which has a range well beyond the compass of most people, including a fair number in choirs - if you don't believe me you can find it in most hymnals. It is recommended that hymns for congregational singing go no lower than Middle C and no higher than an E +1 (that is a range of 1 tenth) and many congregations struggle with that: Londonderry has a range well beyond that, yet is regularly chosen by clergy "because people know it / love it".
We sang that at my wedding! I choose that one from time to time in the spirit of the gentleman who was asked if he believed in infant baptism. "Believe in it? Heck, I've seen it done!"
Originally posted by Stejjie:
quote:
So if the priest is in the habit of making bad choices for hymns, then surely helping him/her is better than just marginalizing them? A group like leo's would surely be an asset, as it would give the priest some guidance and help them to make better choices - and also help the musician(s) to understand where the priest is coming from, why s/he's making those particular choices and then enable them to be guided in better ways of reflecting those concerns?
This is wise. Very few decisions are poorer through being adequately discussed by interested parties.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
EE: you ask what, if any, theological training I've had? Well, does growing up in a house with a CR trained priest, with a member of the Community living next door, and being taught the organ by someone who thought that organist training must include liturgical training count? And then going on to do courses in theology post graduation, not to mention a certain conservatoire's Church Music Studies Course.
By way of contrast, my current PinC had precisely one day per term of a 2 year course 'dedicated' to music in the liturgy - so 6 whole days. And before going forward to ordination training he was an '8 o'clocker' so had little experience of sung liturgy.
As for Gee D's point about whether or not hymns are singable by the congregation, I'd point to the nonsense of setting a hymn to the Londonderry Air which has a range well beyond the compass of most people, including a fair number in choirs - if you don't believe me you can find it in most hymnals. It is recommended that hymns for congregational singing go no lower than Middle C and no higher than an E +1 (that is a range of 1 tenth) and many congregations struggle with that: Londonderry has a range well beyond that, yet is regularly chosen by clergy "because people know it / love it".
It's usually pitched to use a low A rather than go high. We Plough the Fields also uses a low A or Ab depending on book. I'm a high tenor but I don't know anyone who can't get down there when needed; far easier than expecting Altos/Basses, or indeed the average untrained voice, to negotiate an F, or even an E to be honest.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by leo quote:
Better to have the organist involved in whatever committee chooses the hymns.
Ours is - we meet every 3 months - music director, vicar, a churchwarden and me.
And you've had what training in liturgical music? And presumably the churchwarden was also sent on a suitable course? And the Vicar is musical, keeps up-to-date with music practice and developments in contemporary music?
The vicar's first degree is in music.
The director of music is obviously a musician.
The committee also comprises a retired professor of music and a secretary in the music dept. of the uni.
The churchwarden is a scientist but he is the person to whom most people moan if they don't like the hymns.
I am the only non-musician but I am the only theologian on the team and my contribution is specifically concerning the lectionary.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'm guessing you're in a university town/city, Leo.
At our shack the PinC's degree is in natural sciences and he freely admits that most music 'passes him by'.
The Churchwardens are a retired mathematics specialist who is tone-deaf and a retired banker who isn't into music.
As for the place where the vicar chose the Servant Song repeatedly: they admit to a fondness for Duran-Duran. Since arriving in the parish they've managed to get rid of an in-post organist and 2 deputies. The robed choir has gone, the music group is reduced to a single violinist, the former head of the music group got so fed up he's now heading up the music at the local Baptist Church, which he goes to after making his communion at 8 o'clock at another church.
The wardens in that parish were both supportive and appreciative of good music - of all kinds; both have resigned with one only going to the said service, the other has moved to more congenial pastures.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
We drop an octave as necessary. The choir is good and does not need to. Difficulty in singing by a congregation does not just mean high notes. Breathing, ornamentation and a whole lot more come into it.
You have not dealt with my point, which was that the music is a part of the liturgy and liturgy is the province of the Rector, not the organist or choir director. (And the Rector does discuss; it's just that at the end the decision is his - and should be.)
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Gee D
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
We have regular meetings and discuss which feasts will be marked, plus any of the numerous 'special' sundays. Then I choose the music because that is what I'm employed to do.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Gee D
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
We have regular meetings and discuss which feasts will be marked, plus any of the numerous 'special' sundays. Then I choose the music because that is what I'm employed to do.
It's a good thing this works for you. It sounds like it does.
But in many situations it does not.
Posts: 403 | Registered: Feb 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
I've been thinking about this.
The priest is the 'custodian of the liturgy' so s/he should have some input into choosing hymns - to fit with sermons.
S/he should also avoid heretical hymns - like Townend's idea of the wrath of God was satisfied - and the organist should avoid bad tunes - for which reasons our church is a Kendrick-free-zone.
Incidentally, on congregations having a narrow repertoire of known hymns - because we have so many students, there is almost a one-third congregation turnover every year with new people coming from all over the country plus a few from abroad.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
I've been thinking about this.
The priest is the 'custodian of the liturgy' so s/he should have some input into choosing hymns - to fit with sermons.
S/he should also avoid heretical hymns - like Townend's idea of the wrath of God was satisfied - and the organist should avoid bad tunes - for which reasons our church is a Kendrick-free-zone.
Incidentally, on congregations having a narrow repertoire of known hymns - because we have so many students, there is almost a one-third congregation turnover every year with new people coming from all over the country plus a few from abroad.
PSA is not heresy - the objection should be to it being presented as the only valid atonement theory. PSA is perfectly orthodox, certainly for Anglicans.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by leo quote:
... our church is a Kendrick-free-zone.
So is ours - only exceptions the occasional wedding where they've used the web (especially the CofE website) and found something by Ke****ck.
We have a pretty broad repertoire of hymns - but then I try not to repeat (other than carols) during the year, although that was easier with the old EH than with the NEH. On the rare occasions when repetition is unavoidable I try to make it to a different tune.
There are regular open sessions for learning 'new' hymn tunes or if a new setting is being introduced. We even sing the Wayne Marshall tune Marlborough Gate for Beyond all mortal praise - NEH 340.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I discuss music with PinC, and he does his best to appear interested. But he said to me soon after arriving he's a firm believer in the old saying I]Why keep a dog and yet bark yourself?[/I].
I've been thinking about this.
The priest is the 'custodian of the liturgy' so s/he should have some input into choosing hymns - to fit with sermons.
S/he should also avoid heretical hymns - like Townend's idea of the wrath of God was satisfied - and the organist should avoid bad tunes - for which reasons our church is a Kendrick-free-zone.
Incidentally, on congregations having a narrow repertoire of known hymns - because we have so many students, there is almost a one-third congregation turnover every year with new people coming from all over the country plus a few from abroad.
Canon B20 - the minister is to pay 'due heed' to the musician's advice, but the final responsibility is the minister's
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I don't have the time to check if there be an equivalent to that C of E Canon, but could not agree more - it is the responsibility of the Rector to choose the hymns, settings and so forth. One who does not is shirking responsibility.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
<snip>S/he should also avoid heretical hymns - like Townend's idea of the wrath of God was satisfied <snip>
While there certainly are understandings both of the wrath of God, and of satisfaction which tend to the heretical, Townend's hymn doesn't on the face of it deserve that stricture. The Doctrine Commission's 1938 report which you have already referred to offers the theological framework within which this language is rightly used and understood. The understanding of the wrath of God against sin is specifically addressed in a section with that title, and it is with that understanding that the report goes on to use the idea of the Cross as a satisfaction for sin in its consideration of the Atonement.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Roselyn:
Plural pronouns are grammatically correct in many situations. eg "Who would true valour see, let them come hither" is not incorrect grammatically.
True. But they can make life incredibly confusing. Take, for example, "To be a pilgrim". But not the original version, but the version that most people will be familiar with:
quote:
He who would valiant be ’gainst all disaster,
Let him in constancy follow the Master.
There’s no discouragement shall make him once relent
His first avowed intent to be a pilgrim.
Who so beset him round with dismal stories
Do but themselves confound—his strength the more is.
No foes shall stay his might; though he with giants fight,
He will make good his right to be a pilgrim.
Since, Lord, Thou dost defend us with Thy Spirit,
We know we at the end, shall life inherit.
Then fancies flee away! I’ll fear not what men say,
I’ll labor night and day to be a pilgrim.
Now let's try and inclusivise it:
quote:
All who would valiant be ’gainst all disaster,
Let them in constancy follow the Master.
There’s no discouragement shall make them once relent
Their first avowed intent to be a pilgrim.
Who so beset them round with dismal stories
Do but themselves confound — their strength the more is.
No foes shall stay their might; though they with giants fight,
They will make good their right to be a pilgrim.
Since, Lord, Thou dost defend us with Thy Spirit,
We know we at the end, shall life inherit.
Then fancies flee away! I’ll fear not what men say,
I’ll labor night and day to be a pilgrim.
As you can see, verse two becomes a shambles, as we have two lots of "them". Any suggestions?
Bumping this back up, as I had a "Eureka" moment yesterday. As the last verse of this hymn shifts from third person singular to first person plural, I thought "why not make the WHOLE hymn first person plural?"
So what do people think of this:
quote:
We who would valiant be
’gainst all disaster,
let us in constancy
follow the Master.
There’s no discouragement
shall make us once relent
our first avowed intent
to be a pilgrim.
Who so beset us round
with dismal stories,
do but themselves confound -
our strength the more is.
No foes shall stay our might,
though we with giants fight:
we will make good our right
to be a pilgrim.
Since, Lord, you will defend
us with your Spirit,
we know we at the end
shall life inherit.
Then fancies flee away!
We’ll fear not what they say,
we’ll labour night and day
to be a pilgrim.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I find grammatical errors in this version of the great hymn. You can't talk about we and our while still using a pilgrim when the plural is pilgrims
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I find grammatical errors in this version of the great hymn. You can't talk about we and our while still using a pilgrim when the plural is pilgrims
I know. I was wondering who would spot that first. But I think it is still possible (just) to get away with it.
(Man! How desperate does that sound?)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I find grammatical errors in this version of the great hymn. You can't talk about we and our while still using a pilgrim when the plural is pilgrims
I know. I was wondering who would spot that first. But I think it is still possible (just) to get away with it.
(Man! How desperate does that sound?)
I think it's possible to get away with it. I remember being told that it's acceptable to talk about "their heart" or "our life" because each person has only one heart and one life, so presumably in the case each of us can only be one pilgrim.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
Posts: 946 | From: Mount Fairy, NSW | Registered: Jun 2007
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
It doesn't seem odd to me at all to say "we each have an intent to be a pilgrim," even if we understand us to be pilgrims severally and not just jointly. I don't see why dropping the "each" makes it wrong. Also, the church qua church is a pilgrim people, at least in Catholic ecclesiology. So, we are jointly a pilgrim, as well as severally each a pilgrim.
As for singular 'life,' the new translation of the Roman Missal (not that that's a paragon of English usage) uses that in my favorite dismissal option: "Go in peace, glorifying the Lord with your life."
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
could I suggest that the last line of each verse would be more politically correct as 'to all be pilgrims'
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
I always sing it with feminine pronouns.
Brings tears to my eyes.
In childhood my brother and I would sing it to our mother who - in the manner of those days had changed her name on marrying... because our family-name rhymed with "pilgrim"!
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There was a Stepney Episcopal Area course for Adults called Step by Step, and I remember singing "One more step along the world I go" at the memorial service for Beatrice Shearer who was mainly responsible for getting the course going.
I haven't got the text in front of me and I can't remember it being particularly Christian, but it certainly isn't inconsistent as an expression of faith and hope and it was highly appropriate on that occasion.
I like this one. It appears in the Methodist book Hymns and Psalms. (I don't know if it's in the new Methodist hymnbook.)
Although God isn't mentioned by name it's assumed that the hymn is addressed to him. Moreoever, the hymn's reference to travelling seems to match the common Christian understanding of faith being a journey. I don't know whether the hymn's general sentiments in general would be reflected in the worship of any other religion, but it does seem to be a highly inclusive hymn.
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