|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Inclusive language hymns
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
In the UK which modern in print hymnbook is the best for inclusive / expansive language do you think?
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
I know some people will hate me saying this...
In my experience, Kevin Mayhew hymn books are most inclusive. Check out the various(!) versions of Anglican Hymns Old and New. Some rewritten hymns are awful, but often there has been a relatively restrained approach to inclusivisation.
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
Thank you, Oscar. I heard also the Church of Scotland hymn book had done well with expansive and inclusive hymns.
Also a friend mentioned an older hymn book - Hymns For Today's Church.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
The only people that the Kevin Mayhew books exclude are those who care about the literary quality of the words that they are singing.
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
Oh dear! I know my request for advice could be a hot potato, but it is genuine. We'd like an inclusive / expansive language book to supplement.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
ML
Why does it have to be inclusive language? Unless your church has had a sudden lottery win (or similar) are you so flush with cash that this is a must have?
And is your church so well maintained that this is the only thing left for you to spend your money on?
If the answer to either of those two is NO, then you shouldn't be wasting time, effort and money worrying about 'inclusivity'.
IME the alteration of many older hymns by the PC brigade has ruined some of the finest religious poetry in regular use in the UK - but you are entitled to your view and, if your church really wants an 'inclusive' book then go for it.
BTW, is the inclusion to be concerning gender alone, or are all references that might offend the differently abled going to be removed too?
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Also a friend mentioned an older hymn book - Hymns For Today's Church.
Noooooooooooo!
It's clunky and horrible and..... and....
Before I was ordained, I was in a church that had HFTC. So many perfectly good hymns ruined for so little purpose. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
L'organist I take it your comments are actually ones opposed to inclusive language and using richer and more expansive language about God.
I fully expect people here to push that line, as I know others will hold different views.
However, my request was a simple one, not a polemic one. We are not getting a new hymn book for our church, we just like to have a variety of resources and so have one or two full music copies of other hymn books, hence the request. But why, I ask myself, should I have to explain!
So to repeat my simple question.
Which modern hymn book available in the UK is a good one for inclusive language and expansive language?
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
My last place had the dark red version of Hymns Old and New. I'm not sure I'd recommend it as the hymn book to end all hymn books but if you want it to give you another string to your bow, it's pretty good. The Methodist hymnal, 'Singing the Faith' would be my suggestion. Currently, I tend to resort to the latter in circumstances when five hymns from the NEH won't cut the mustard.
As things stand, we use the NEH and have some elderly copies of Mission Praise, which appear to date from some period between the settling of the Ark on Mount Ararat and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah which are, frankly, worse than useless. I can only assume they were purchased by one of my predecessors in a peculiar attempt at reverse psychology. In the event of a dodgy Russian oligarch moving into the parish and offering me unlimited access to his ill-gotten lucre I would probably invest in a suitable number of copies of Singing The Faith and produce more service booklets with the words of all the hymns. Until that happy event, I persevere. But if you are looking for a few copies to give you a wider repertoire and some more inclusive language, you could do worse.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Magersfontein Lugg
Shipmate
# 18240
|
Posted
Thanks Callan for a kind and helpful response.Thats the sort of situation we face. We will not be replacing our traditional hymn book but we do want to supplement it with inclusive language and expansive language hymns, and I should have said, we'd like more hymns from differing nations.
I'll look out the hymn book you suggest. It seems from what I have heard the C of E hymn books are more conservative than some of the Free Church ones.
Posts: 104 | From: Bottle Street | Registered: Oct 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
To be more helpful:
We use the New English Hymnal.
We supplement with English Praise - which is the supplement to the NEH.
For some things we still use the original English Hymnal.
But there are some hymns we get from a wide variety of other books, including: Ancient & Modern New Standard, Mission Praise, Hymns Old & New, The Catholic Hymn Book (1998 edition), the English Gradual, plus Hymnau yr Eglyws for a couple of tunes, the Hymnary of the US Department of Defense, Songs of Praise, etc.
IME there is no single book that covers all the bases; you just choose the one that suits most of your needs and deal with the rest on a case-by-case basis. Not perfect, I know, but the best that can be done if you want to have a broad range of liturgical music.
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
|
Posted
Another one you might want to look at, especially in terms being a supplement to your existing hymn book, is Sing Praise from the publishers of Hymns Ancient and Modern.
--------------------
Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
We used to use 'New Hymns and Worship Songs' in addition to the NEH. It won't suit everybody because it's published by Kevin Mayhew, but it is specifically designed as a supplement in that it doesn't generally include the well-known hymns already in most established collections.
The practical problem, if you hand out hymn-books to congregation members rather than print the texts in a bulletin, is having to juggle with a library. Either you restrict yourselves to singing all the hymns in a particular service from one or other of the books (especially problematic with the newer book); or you compromise by handing out only the one with most of the hymns and printing out the rest; or you permanently keep books in the pews; or you put off strangers for life by confusing them with two or three books and a couple of leaflets and then either destroy the flow of the liturgy with distracting announcements or leave people floundering.
If you don't use a screen, simple outline orders of service are the way to go.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
I tend to agree with L'Organist and Albertus. So far, I've not come across a recent hymn book that's remotely up to the job. I'd love to hear of one. Most of them have all (rather than only some) of the following failings:-
- they omit too many of the classics that should be in every hymn book - though it varies which ones they omit.
- in their determination to modernise uninclusive language, old forms of second person singular etc, they butcher what hymn writers originally wrote and reveal themselves to be cloth-eared.
- one suspects that too often this is so as to claim a sort of false copyright in the works of writers and composers better than they, and then try to claim fees on them.
- their selections of modern material are invariably weirdly idiosyncratic. Whatever the list, it will have little bearing on what you want to sing. Modern favourites won't be there, but the pages will be cluttered up with choruses that were written by friends of the editor, but which nobody else has ever sung. (Actually, if you replace 'choruses' by 'hymns' that last bit applies to most old hymn books as well. It certainly applies to all the editions of A&M and EH).
Some Shipmates will scream but these are all good arguments for having a projector and screen.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
|
Posted
posted by Angloid quote:
The practical problem, if you hand out hymn-books to congregation members rather than print the texts in a bulletin, is having to juggle with a library.
May I enquire how many hymns you have in a service?
In a standard parish communion, for example, you can really only fit 5: an Introit (some people call this the gatheringhymn; a Gradual before the Gospel if you don't have a Psalm; at the Offertory; at Communion; and a final Post Communion hymn.
It should not be beyond the wit of someone with a modicum of gumption to ensure that all of those for one service come from the same book; there may be occasions when you want to stray into a second book but beyond that? I really couldn't see the necessity. Of course, you may have a preference for choosing more widely but thats a different thing altogether.
[ 12. December 2014, 15:57: Message edited by: L'organist ]
--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Not any longer having responsibility for a congregation, that is a hypothetical question. If I had my way we'd have no more than two hymns at a eucharist.
But yes, it is usually possible to find four or five relevant and singable hymns from the standard hymnbooks. It's only when you want to incorporate a newer one (or two) from the alternative book: certainly with the one that I mentioned you would be struggling to find all four (or five) in that book. So people either have to juggle with two books or with a book and a piece of paper. That's why an printed service leaflet is a good idea especially if it can obviate this need.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Not any longer having responsibility for a congregation, that is a hypothetical question. If I had my way we'd have no more than two hymns at a eucharist.
Wonderful. After all the rest of the service, bar the sermon, is chanted normally, isn't it?
--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Two seems a bit meagre - how about 3? Introit, Offertory, and one just after Communion whilst the washing-up is done....
Ian J.
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Not any longer having responsibility for a congregation, that is a hypothetical question. If I had my way we'd have no more than two hymns at a eucharist.
Wonderful. After all the rest of the service, bar the sermon, is chanted normally, isn't it?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
I'm with the late +Mervyn Southwark, who in reply to a question about his churchmanship is alleged to have said, 'I'm neither high church nor low church, but short church.'
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
