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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Tatler
Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE? [Confused]


Why ever not? Just be careful not to kneel on any buttons.

--------------------
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Arch Anglo Catholic
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# 15181

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Perfectly fine to sport a single breasted cassock. I wear double breasted (all wool for added warmth) in the coldest parts of the benefice and Winter, and single breasted, 39 or 33 button, the rest of the year.

Given that you will wear a surplice over the cassock, it is likely that no one but you will know! Actually, and on second thoughts, there are BOUND to be a few clerical tat lovers like me about who will note exactly what is being worn.

I must get out more....

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PD
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# 12436

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I think some of us regard wearing a Roman cassock as 'flying false colours' but other than that I can see no objection.

PD

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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I wear a single breasted cassock under my surplice and haven't been arrested yet!

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I think some of us regard wearing a Roman cassock as 'flying false colours' but other than that I can see no objection.

PD

You'll remember what the Blessed Percy had to say on the matter

quote:
The use of buttons renders the cassock inconvenient to walk in, uncomfortable to kneel in, and cumbersome to put on. It would also add to the cost if buttonhole-making were not so often cruelly underpaid


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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
You'll remember what the Blessed Percy had to say on the matter

quote:
The use of buttons renders the cassock inconvenient to walk in, uncomfortable to kneel in, and cumbersome to put on. It would also add to the cost if buttonhole-making were not so often cruelly underpaid

That's a very good point. I remember only too well the time I genuflected and one of the buttons on my cassock dug straight into the soft bit just below my kneecap. My eyes still water just thinking about it.

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE? [Confused]


I always wear a single-breasted under a surplice but I am getting a bigger beer belly so next time I buy a new one, it's going to be double-breasted. More accommodating to the senior man's figure.

--------------------
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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
That's a very good point. I remember only too well the time I genuflected and one of the buttons on my cassock dug straight into the soft bit just below my kneecap. My eyes still water just thinking about it.

Heh, heh - which of the 39 articles caused you such discomfort?!

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daviddrinkell
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# 8854

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The double-breasted type is much more Anglican, and so much more convenient. It fits far more comfortably, has only three buttons (so is much quicker and easier to put on and take off) and it looks smarter. Life is too short to fiddle with 39 buttons, and why go for the Roman look when there's a viable Anglican alternative? (No criticism here intended of RCs wearing the single-breasted type. It's their style).

--------------------
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Corvo
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# 15220

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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE? [Confused]


A proper (Sarum) surplice will completely conceal whatever cassock you are wearing. Single-breasted cassocks are quite usual in the Church of England.
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Cardinal Pole Vault

Papal Bull
# 4193

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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE? [Confused]


Yes. It is perfectly acceptable.

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO

--------------------
"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Zacchaeus
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# 14454

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And the double breasted cassocks can gape open when worn by ladies with larger busts.
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Arch Anglo Catholic
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# 15181

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@PD

Your comment with regard to flying under false colours was once very true, but given the very large number of Anglican clergy wearing single breasted, 39 button cassocks, perhaps not so today, noting also that a fair number of CofE Bishops sport them too.

It is more of a distinction, one might suggest, on the other side of the pond where Cassocks are described as either Anglican/sarum or Roman. Not quite the same in dear old Blighty!

Pip pip!

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seasick

...over the edge
# 48

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I'm a Methodist and I wear a single-breasted cassock. Am I guilty of impersonating an Anglican or of impersonating a Roman Catholic? [Big Grin]

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Angloid
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# 159

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By definition almost, if you've got 39 buttons you must be an Anglican (or impersonating one).

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Zacchaeus
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# 14454

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The clergy I know wear single breasted cassocks but with only about 12 buttons not 39..
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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The clergy I know wear single breasted cassocks but with only about 12 buttons not 39..

Hereticks!

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I will be ordained later this year, and I am looking for a cassock. I have a double-breasted Sarum style cassock, but would like to get a single breasted one for my ordination. Is it OK to wear a surplice with a single breated cassock in CofE? [Confused]


A proper (Sarum) surplice will completely conceal whatever cassock you are wearing. Single-breasted cassocks are quite usual in the Church of England.
Not really - there should be about six inches of cassock visible where the surplice ends.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not really - there should be about six inches of cassock visible where the surplice ends.

Mirfield monks used to have this fashion for wearing their cassocks very short. Hence when they put a surplice on top you could just see their ankles.

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not really - there should be about six inches of cassock visible where the surplice ends.

Mirfield monks used to have this fashion for wearing their cassocks very short. Hence when they put a surplice on top you could just see their ankles.
? They wore cottas in my day.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Zacchaeus
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# 14454

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
The clergy I know wear single breasted cassocks but with only about 12 buttons not 39..

Hereticks!
I must try and count on Sunday - though how to count the ones under hte surplice!!
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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not really - there should be about six inches of cassock visible where the surplice ends.

Mirfield monks used to have this fashion for wearing their cassocks very short. Hence when they put a surplice on top you could just see their ankles.
? They wore cottas in my day.
Are you sure? My memory is of long Sarum surplices (and apparelled albs for the servers) They've gone a lot simpler recently with cassock-albs (on top of cassocks!)

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
And the double breasted cassocks can gape open when worn by ladies with larger busts.

Speaking of larger busts, I was wondering if folks who have experience borrowing from a common closet could advise on whether a female with broad shoulders and a large chest should go for a male or female cassock. I've been asked to pick up an acolyte version for service at the altar.

I tend to wear men's shirts anyway because women's clothing manufacturers in their infinite wisdom think plus-size females have weensy stick arms, and I'm wondering if I'll have this problem in the cassock realm also.

At least I know this won't be an issue with my surplice!

--------------------
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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Not really - there should be about six inches of cassock visible where the surplice ends.

Mirfield monks used to have this fashion for wearing their cassocks very short. Hence when they put a surplice on top you could just see their ankles.
? They wore cottas in my day.
Are you sure? My memory is of long Sarum surplices (and apparelled albs for the servers) They've gone a lot simpler recently with cassock-albs (on top of cassocks!)
Cottas at the Leeds hostel 40 years ago. - I remember because I hate cottas. I remember the short cassocks, though.

I was at the mother house last year but can't remember what they wore.

[ 21. January 2012, 09:08: Message edited by: leo ]

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3rdFooter
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# 9751

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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Speaking of larger busts, I was wondering if folks who have experience borrowing from a common closet could advise on whether a female with broad shoulders and a large chest should go for a male or female cassock. I've been asked to pick up an acolyte version for service at the altar.

I tend to wear men's shirts anyway because women's clothing manufacturers in their infinite wisdom think plus-size females have weensy stick arms, and I'm wondering if I'll have this problem in the cassock realm also.

If you are serving regularly, and definitely if you are going to be ordained, get your own cassock that fits you properly and behaves itself by your rules. If nothing else it saves you a lot of searching around for the one in the common cupboard that fits and means you can get on with preparation. You have to do a lot of different things in a cassock (walk, carry, kneel, gesture...) so your confidence and its fit are important.

A made to measure, wool/poly mix cassock will repay itself with years of service.

(3F, Ordained, Anglican, 39 buttons)

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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom

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regulator reverend
Apprentice
# 16890

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Thanks for all your advice on the cassock front. Made-to-measure single breasted it is for me. Any other vestment advice gratefully received as I embark on this journey - ordination coming up in Petertide 2012. But I promise no Olympic rings on my stole! [Votive]
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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO

Only if worn with a flat cap, and a duster stuck into the belt!
BTW, what's all this stuff about undoing/ doing up all 39 buttons to get in and out of the cassock? Surely you just undo enough to step in/out of the top of it? That's certainly what I was taught to do in the distant days when I used to wear one.

--------------------
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3rdFooter
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# 9751

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quote:
Originally posted by regulator reverend:
But I promise no Olympic rings on my stole! [Votive]

Oh Lord, what a thought. You just know someone's going to.

Can I make a conditional Hell Call to the first to post such an image?

--------------------
3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO

Only if worn with a flat cap, and a duster stuck into the belt!
BTW, what's all this stuff about undoing/ doing up all 39 buttons to get in and out of the cassock? Surely you just undo enough to step in/out of the top of it? That's certainly what I was taught to do in the distant days when I used to wear one.

I still do that.

--------------------
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Trisagion
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# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO

Only if worn with a flat cap, and a duster stuck into the belt!
BTW, what's all this stuff about undoing/ doing up all 39 buttons to get in and out of the cassock? Surely you just undo enough to step in/out of the top of it? That's certainly what I was taught to do in the distant days when I used to wear one.

I still do that.
I assume you're referring to the method if getting in and out of a s/b cassock: I can't quite picture you with yellow duster and flat cap.
[Biased]

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Adeodatus
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# 4992

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Surely you just undo enough to step in/out of the top of it? That's certainly what I was taught to do in the distant days when I used to wear one.

It's also a good way to monitor your waistline. When I was a pale young curate, I only had to undo 15 buttons. Now it's 19. I suppose I should be grateful I can still get into the cassock at all.

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Bax
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# 16572

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
The double-breasted cassock makes the wearer look like the Verger from Dad's Army IMO

Only if worn with a cloth cap, your reverence...
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regulator reverend
Apprentice
# 16890

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I have been given a stole and it has a cord near the top of the stole holding the two sides together. When worn the cord has to go round the back of the neck, which makes the "yoke" of the stole stand out somewhat. [Confused]
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Comper's Child
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# 10580

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quote:
Originally posted by regulator reverend:
I have been given a stole and it has a cord near the top of the stole holding the two sides together. When worn the cord has to go round the back of the neck, which makes the "yoke" of the stole stand out somewhat. [Confused]

That is the point - to make it stand out.
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Speaking of larger busts, I was wondering if folks who have experience borrowing from a common closet could advise on whether a female with broad shoulders and a large chest should go for a male or female cassock. I've been asked to pick up an acolyte version for service at the altar.

I tend to wear men's shirts anyway because women's clothing manufacturers in their infinite wisdom think plus-size females have weensy stick arms, and I'm wondering if I'll have this problem in the cassock realm also.

If you are serving regularly, and definitely if you are going to be ordained, get your own cassock that fits you properly and behaves itself by your rules. If nothing else it saves you a lot of searching around for the one in the common cupboard that fits and means you can get on with preparation. You have to do a lot of different things in a cassock (walk, carry, kneel, gesture...) so your confidence and its fit are important.


Yeah, unless God throws a wobbly I ain't going to be ordained any time soon, but the big problem (ha! pun.) is that I'm too far outside the normal measurements that none in the common cupboard fit me at all, so I have zero frame of reference. My chest is 44 inches, my bust is 65 inches, my seam to seam shoulder is 19 inches, and my bicep is 20 inches in diameter.

For those who aren't into pret-a-porter, that's about a size 2XL US men's, and unless it's a knit with generous positive ease, I won't fit into a women's cut shirt at all.

Looking at my price range, I'll probably have to do my usual buy the biggest one possible and apply sewing machine liberally.

--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account

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lily pad
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# 11456

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Why not just sew one from scratch in the first place? While I've never made one, I've thought about it many times. They have patterns online and in regular fabric stores - check the costume section of the books.

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:
Why not just sew one from scratch in the first place? While I've never made one, I've thought about it many times. They have patterns online and in regular fabric stores - check the costume section of the books.

Because darts are fast, easy, and well within my attention span. A full article of clothing? No. Thank you. I will pay someone else who has access to a serger for that.

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Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
For those who aren't into pret-a-porter, that's about a size 2XL US men's, and unless it's a knit with generous positive ease, I won't fit into a women's cut shirt at all.

So that is why women shouldn't be ordained.

Joke - honestly - I've known quite a few anglo-catholic priests whose robes needed to be 'very generous'.

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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Spiffy
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# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So that is why women shouldn't be ordained.

Joke - honestly - I've known quite a few anglo-catholic priests whose robes needed to be 'very generous'.

I bet I could bench press them. I think it's more why people who spent a lot of time doing bodybuilding in their younger years shouldn't be ordained. Muscle goes soft, but it doesn't go away.

Besides, I'm not going to be ordained, I'm just going to be fetching and carrying for those in Holy Orders.

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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
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Olaf
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# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
For those who aren't into pret-a-porter, that's about a size 2XL US men's, and unless it's a knit with generous positive ease, I won't fit into a women's cut shirt at all.

So that is why women shouldn't be ordained.

Joke - honestly - I've known quite a few anglo-catholic priests whose robes needed to be 'very generous'.

I can recall reading about Scandinavian Lutherans introducing lines of maternity vestments--chasubles, etc. From Spiffy's specifications, it doesn't sound like that would help her all too much.

Now, if there were a pro wrestler whose moniker were "The Preacher" or something like that...

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Angloid
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# 159

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Why would anyone need a specifically maternity chasuble? Even a prospective mother of triplets would have a smaller bump than many male priests I have known.Didn't St Thomas Aquinas have a specially-made altar carved out in the middle like a dressing-table to allow for his generous proportions?

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Amos

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# 44

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I thought it was the Angelic Doctor's desk that had the cut-out, Angloid, but the principle's the same.
I was also taught that he could dictate one book to a secretary sitting at his left and another to a secretary sitting at his right at the same time. . Tomorrow is his feast day!

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285

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I just saw excellent pictures of the recent consecration of the bishops of Winchester and Bradwell in St.Paul's cathedral on January 25.
See the website of St.Paul's cathedral.
It struck me that the newly consecrated bishops were not vested in Chasuble or cope, they were not even wearing their mitres.
The Consecrator Archbishop Williams wore a beautiful chasuble and the bishops of London and Salisbury were in splendid golden copes.
In other parts of the Anglican Communion,Scotland,the USA the newly consecrated bishops receive chasuble,mitre and staff after the Laying on of hands.
But why not in the Church of England ?
Could someone advise me on this liturgical issue ?

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otyetsfoma
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# 12898

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The rubric in the Order for Consecrating Bishops specifically mentions 1st the rochet then later the rest of the episcopal habit. Habit, not vestment.
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Thurible
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# 3206

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quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
I just saw excellent pictures of the recent consecration of the bishops of Winchester and Bradwell in St.Paul's cathedral on January 25.
See the website of St.Paul's cathedral.

Just had a nose and was amused by
quote:
A Eucharist service, held on Wednesday 25th January, saw the Archbishop of Canterbury officially ordain the Reverend Canon Tim Dakin to the post of Bishop of Winchester
What a beautifully poetic way of putting it...

Thurible

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Angloid
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# 159

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Yes that's always puzzled me. At one time it would have been a concession to evangelicals (some of whom are reluctant to wear stoles at priestly/diaconal ordinations). But most if not all bishops and bishops-to-be are happy to wear liturgical vesture nowadays. Isn't it time to update the rules? It makes the consecration of a bishop look more like a degree ceremony or legal formality.

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PD
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# 12436

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More accurately, it is a retention of the post-reformation custom. At one time the three consecrators would have been in Rochet and Chimere too as most consecrations for the southern province occured at Lambeth Palace Chapel, not in a cathedral where copes would have been required.

My own consecration as a bishop in the USA saw the co-consecrators in Cope and Mitre, and the victim - me in rochet and chimere by the end of proceedings. Other places would use more Tat than that, but even outside the UK rochet and chimere is sometimes used for the one being consecrated.

PD

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sacerdos
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# 8790

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I seem to have seen some photos recently of FiF clergy being ordained in cassock & surplice. Does anyone know why?
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Zach82
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# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by sacerdos:
I seem to have seen some photos recently of FiF clergy being ordained in cassock & surplice. Does anyone know why?

Because it's that or a cass-alb, I imagine.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged



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