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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Tatler
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sacerdos
Shipmate
# 8790
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Posted
But as far as I can tell these ordinations are conferred by PEV's in FiF churches. What conceivable need is there to make concessions to protestantism?
Posts: 62 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I thought there were a few evangelical parishes under the auspices of FiF?
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There are certainly evangelical Anglican parishes that won't accept the ordination of women. But whether they are formally members of FiF, I'm not sure. I've not seen it openly declared on their literature.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sacerdos:
But as far as I can tell these ordinations are conferred by PEV's in FiF churches. What conceivable need is there to make concessions to protestantism?
I don't suppose I could ask for examples? I can't think of any that were done in a surplice by a PEV in a petitioning parish but am always happy to be corrected.
I suppose, if it has happened, it may be because the church doesn't have enough chasubles and the ordinand felt that he didn't want to concelebrate in his undergarments.
Thurible
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
In other parts of the Anglican Communion,Scotland,the USA the newly consecrated bishops receive chasuble,mitre and staff after the Laying on of hands.
But why not in the Church of England ?
Could someone advise me on this liturgical issue ?
Well the other Anglican national churches you mention, and there are of course many others, have not gotten stuck with the 'official' English Book of Common Prayer, 1662, or status as established churches. The newer prayer book revisions outside England, generally allow for the inclusion of a wider variety of episcopal ornamentation as part of more flexibility with liturgical revision and worship practice. I think that's the reason English consecrations can have a rather stodgy look to them compared to those of other Anglican national churches. In England you're dealing with an old fashioned prayer book used to ordain prelates of an established state church, so they tend to do it "by the book."
Until the arrival of Rowan Williams it used to be worse. Under the forgettable George Carey and his august predecessors, bishops were formerly ordained in black chimeres over white rochets - the official penguin look. Now at least they have them wearing a more colorful scarlet and white.
As you will note with the torturous English process to arrive at the consecration of women bishops, still not completed after years of agony, some things in England take a very long time to change. In many of the other Anglican churches one or two rather uncomplicated super majority votes accomplished the very same thing in short order. Same thing with episcopal vesture outside England. With progressive prayer book book revision, no long and twisted process for consensus needed in these matters.
The only two exceptions that come to mind are the now-not-so-low Church of Ireland where mitres have reappeared, especially in their southern province of Dublin. The other would be the famously low church diocese of Sydney, Australia. Even though Archbishop Peter Jensen was consecrated in the black and white penguin outfit some years back, I do believe there has been a switch to scarlet for more recent consecrations in Sydney. However don't waste your time looking for a mitre among any of those Sydney Evangelical bishops. And the rest of Australia is quite different. So odd.
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
...the forgettable George Carey ...
If only. We do our best to forget him, but he will keep popping up!
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Hostly Clarification
This: quote:
Originally posted by sacerdos:
I seem to have seen some photos recently of FiF clergy being ordained in cassock & surplice. Does anyone know why?
... is the Tat question. Let's leave all the other FiF analysis for another thread please (especially that little deceased equine that's galloping along the periphery of the discussion).
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
*bump*
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Google wasn't my friend on this one.
Can anyone point me to somewhere I could purchase a Scottish-style preaching gown (the one with the open front and vented sleeves)? Or the sewing pattern thereof?
Even though my church and I belong to the American lineage of Presbyterian tat, I've grown really keen on the Scottish look and might adopt and save it for dress-up occasions.
Also, I know the wearing of a stole over a Geneva robe is considered bad form by some. In spite of that, does it happen in the Scottish school of tat? I think I saw a former moderator of the GA doing it, but now I'm not sure if it was a stole or a tippet.
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
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Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
Is the one on the right not the Moderator's Gown - it looks very much like the one The Very Rev David Arnott wore at Our Wee Bothy (Shack in Gaelic) on Advent 4 (not that he would have called it Advent 4, I hasten to add)
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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Episcoterian
Shipmate
# 13185
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Posted
Yeah, that's the Mod's gown! But I'm yet to find out if the difference between this and the regular gown goes beyond the adding of tassels.
Also, is the Mod's gown reserved for the GA Mod, or can a Presbytery/Synod Mod wear one as well? (my only hope of ever donning one...)
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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)
I'm on Facebook too!
Posts: 286 | From: Franca, SP, Brazil | Registered: Nov 2007
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
It is more sleeveless (think:chimere)
No, Presbytery Moderators are usually in suits (and max. a collar) when they are Moderating anything. It's not a job which has a lots of public appearances, receptions, freebies, scones and general "swishing about". More like chairing meetings....sigh
Our RevCDJ (Church of Scotland) was at a Reception for the Archbishop of Canterbury's recent visit to Israel/Palestine and he said he felt decidedly under-dressed in the face of local Anglicans, RC and several varieties of Orthodox. Perhaps he should have worn his kilt!
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
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SFG
Apprentice
# 17081
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Posted
The style of collar worn with a black shirt by clergy, often of the more middle or catholic wing of the Church of England seems to vary.
In another thread I mentioned that I had heard that younger A-C clergy in some places seem to favour the Rabat waistcoat with full roman all round collar.
Who are good and not expensive suppliers of traditional clergy wear?c
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Posts: 33 | Registered: Apr 2012
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
The full ring collar with rabat used to be more middle to low or, rather, the 'establishment' vesture. See Donald Coggan (evangelical) Bishop of Bradford then Archbishop of York then Canterbury.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I still tend to wear the old-fashioned ring collar, but attcahed toa clerical shirt rather than a rabat/stock. My own churchmanship is more High Church Protestant than anything else, though in some respects I am an instinctive Lutheran.
As a kid it was sort of understood that a narrow full round collar and black suit or cassock was A-C. A deeper collar and a black suit was High. Tweeds and a full collar was MOTR, and a grey suit and "neck brace" collar was Evangelical. The joke was 1" Anglo-Catholic; 1.25" - High; 1.5 - MOTR and 1.75 - Low...
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Fidei Defensor
Shipmate
# 17105
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SFG:
Who are good and not expensive suppliers of traditional clergy wear?c
There is only one who fits both bills, good and not expensive:
C M Almy.
No help to Episcoterian, they don't offer an open (or any) Geneva Gown. But for other stuff, even with postage to outside of USA, they're unbeatable on value. Americans lie about their size, Almy compensate for that, so bear in mind that their sizes are generous.
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Das ist gewisslich wahr!
Posts: 103 | From: -27.28985,152.838769 | Registered: May 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fidei Defensor:
quote:
Originally posted by SFG:
Who are good and not expensive suppliers of traditional clergy wear?c
There is only one who fits both bills, good and not expensive:
C M Almy.
.
Since I assume from SFG's post that s/he is on the east side of the pond, maybe this would be more useful.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
One thing I have not seen in a tat catelogue for ages is the old-fashioned English preaching gown beloved of a certain species of Low Churchman. Does anyone still make them?
PD
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
I see lots of URC ministers in this style preaching gown.
I think in Reformed circles the correlation might hold that the longer ones preaching gown the higher ones churchmanship. Please note the evangelicals in the Reformed Church don't seem to be the lowest of low churchmen, that is reserved for a specific type of liberal.
Jengie
[ 29. May 2012, 17:21: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
If I wear a gown (which doesn't happen very often), it's simply the gown of my degree.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I finally came across one in the Wippell's catelogue. It looks a bit like the Scottish style but the sleeves are different, more of a bell and less of a 'flap.'
When I do wear a gown, as I occasionally do for funerals, I wear either the standard American preaching gown or my university gown over a cassock. In both cases I wear bands. I get the occasional 'non-Anglican' funeral mainly because the nature of the neighbourhood. It has a large proportion of folks not formally aligned with any denomination, but will look in at my parish on Christmas and Good Friday and Easter.
PD
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I see lots of URC ministers in this style preaching gown.
I think in Reformed circles the correlation might hold that the longer ones preaching gown the higher ones churchmanship. Please note the evangelicals in the Reformed Church don't seem to be the lowest of low churchmen, that is reserved for a specific type of liberal.
Jengie
In black or powder blue?
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
If I wear a gown (which doesn't happen very often), it's simply the gown of my degree.
The local Methodist minister to where I grew up would wear his university gown over his cassock along with academic hood and preaching bands. Does anyone still do that?
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
If I wear a gown (which doesn't happen very often), it's simply the gown of my degree.
The local Methodist minister to where I grew up would wear his university gown over his cassock along with academic hood and preaching bands. Does anyone still do that?
I really hope so, as that was what the Methodist minister did in my home town when I was a kid. It looked pretty dang cool!
PD
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Could someone give me an introduction to the proper wearing of academic hoods by non-clergy? I have seen them referred to in Eccles many times but I have not encountered them in the Episcopal Church. At yesterday's Choral Evensong at St James Cathedral, about 1/3 of the members of the choir were wearing academic hoods.
So, if I have received a Master's degree in, say, history or economics or business administration, and I sing in a cathedral choir, it is okay to wear this symbol of my academic achievement during a liturgy? I don't get it. Or perhaps all those singers had advanced degrees in music performance and it is somehow appropriate to show that off? I'm sure I have misunderstood something here, so I have come looking for enlightenment. Thank you.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
So, if I have received a Master's degree in, say, history or economics or business administration, and I sing in a cathedral choir, it is okay to wear this symbol of my academic achievement during a liturgy?
Entirely okay, and arguably required. The hood worn is that of the highest degree attained, regardless of subject. Hence, when I am in surplice I wear my PhD (blue doubled dark red), and would continue to do so even if I had an MTh or something else more 'relevant' to the exercise of Faith than my doctorate in plant cell biology!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Presumably in practice people wear the one they can afford!
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Yup!
If it were not for fleaBay as a source for secondhand vestment it would be strictly cassock, surplice and stole/tippet around here. I have never had the money to spend on exensive vestments. Even my purple bishop's cassock was inherited from my old bishop after he had to "retire-retire" due to ill-health.
PD
[ 04. June 2012, 17:29: Message edited by: PD ]
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Thanks, everyone, for the information. There is still something that is not registering with me, so forgive me for being obstinate. I am having trouble getting past the notion that it is somehow appropriate for a chorister (not picking on choristers here, let alone Chorister ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ) to wear an academic hood at a church service. A preacher, yes, perhaps.
With most things liturgical it helps, I think, to start at the origin, so am I correct in assuming that this practice originated when the Academy and the Church were much more closely-knit* than they are today?
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Hence, when I am in surplice I wear my PhD (blue doubled dark red), and would continue to do so even if I had an MTh or something else more 'relevant' to the exercise of Faith than my doctorate in plant cell biology!
Are you dressed in surplice because you are singing in the choir? Or are there other, non-clery, liturgical roles where one wears the academic hood? What about Readers? Do they wear this in lieu of a reading scarf?
I hope my questions don't give offense. I'm just mystified by this. I honestly thought it was a C of E "thing." ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
*(At least in the US at this point. Many of our colleges and universities were founded by denominations but the connection nowadays is negligible.)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
If I wear a gown (which doesn't happen very often), it's simply the gown of my degree.
The local Methodist minister to where I grew up would wear his university gown over his cassock along with academic hood and preaching bands. Does anyone still do that?
I do wear that on occasion (with scarf too) - used it a few weeks ago for a civic do in the parish church. Most of the time though I'm presiding at the Eucharist which gets alb and stole.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Or are there other, non-clery, liturgical roles where one wears the academic hood? What about Readers? Do they wear this in lieu of a reading scarf?
Readers wear hood and scarf, same as the clergy do.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
I honestly thought it was a C of E "thing."
Graduate choir members in the (Roman Catholic) Metropolitan Cathedral of Christ the King in LIverpool also wear hoods.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Similarly, then, I was seeing the choristers decked out like this because it was Evensong. Had the service been Holy Eucharist, they would not have worn their hoods -- do I have that right?
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Similarly, then, I was seeing the choristers decked out like this because it was Evensong. Had the service been Holy Eucharist, they would not have worn their hoods -- do I have that right?
It was hoods, if you had one, for every service where I grew up. And no, we were not Low, more sunny side of Central.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Similarly, then, I was seeing the choristers decked out like this because it was Evensong. Had the service been Holy Eucharist, they would not have worn their hoods -- do I have that right?
Right, AFAIK. Those wearing hoods were probably thrilled to have the chance to do so. Especially in the choir. I couldn't see them, as I was in back, on the Gospel side, so I could see only the choirmasters (each one in turn). And the back of one soprano whose long, thick hair may have hidden a hood or not.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And at the same time, i.e. as choir dress, not for sacraments.
It's interesting to see what happens when there's a big new-rector service and all the clergy for miles around are invited, and the invitation gives the terse instruction, "Clergy: Choir Habit."
I attended one such event in NYC years ago, and my favorite was the priest who was a Seabury-Western Seminary graduate, decked out in cassock, surplice, full shoulder-covering Warham-style hood, and bands. A Presbyterian was in kelly-green cassock and white bands. Very many Episcopalians were in cassock, surplice, tippet, and often bands. There were other interpretations I can't remember enough of to describe here.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Thanks, everyone. This has been most instructive!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Similarly, then, I was seeing the choristers decked out like this because it was Evensong. Had the service been Holy Eucharist, they would not have worn their hoods -- do I have that right?
Many places consider it customary not to wear hoods at Eucharistic services, no. There is actually no warrant for this - the rubrics to the original BCPs indicate that the surplice and hood are worn by 'clerks' for all services but I don't think this is commonly observed for choristers.
Organists, in my experience, have a tendency to wear hoods at every service - not sure whether this is because they are hidden away in a loft so think they can get away with it, or simply because nobody dares tell them otherwise!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Graduates wore hoods for High Mass at my Anglo-Catholic theological college. (well, not the scared monsters, obviously. Nor the servers)
[ 06. June 2012, 09:18: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
Similarly, then, I was seeing the choristers decked out like this because it was Evensong. Had the service been Holy Eucharist, they would not have worn their hoods -- do I have that right?
Many places consider it customary not to wear hoods at Eucharistic services, no. There is actually no warrant for this - the rubrics to the original BCPs indicate that the surplice and hood are worn by 'clerks' for all services but I don't think this is commonly observed for choristers.
Organists, in my experience, have a tendency to wear hoods at every service - not sure whether this is because they are hidden away in a loft so think they can get away with it, or simply because nobody dares tell them otherwise!
In an odd bit of local custom at the church of my youth, an extreme AC shack, those of us in choir would remove our academic hoods at the end of evensong so as not to wear "vesture of personal prestige" in the presence of the MBS at Benediction.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
It a pious myth that it is necessary to remove the hood for HC. The Canons of 1603 indicate a surplice and hood (scarves tended to be worn by dignitories).
An early picture of the Margaret Street chapel (as All Saints Margaret Street, London was once known) shows three clergy in the sanctuary at a eucharistic celebration. All are wearing what appears to be the Oxford MA hood.
It is most likely that in his Anglican days Newman did the same. He would have worn a long surplice put on straight over his street clothes (no cassock) and hood. In those days hoods tended to be slightly longer than those worn today. The cassock had largely fallen into disuse. Those who wore it (bishops and Doctors of Divinity) tended to wear a shortened apron like version.
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
At one time it was that it was almost a point of honour for clergy to wear their hoods until it became an eyesore and a bio-hazard. I remember one clergyman's hood (BA Cantab) that was known to the choir members as "the rotting moggy" due to its delapidated condition. He received a new one on the 25th anniversary of his priesting due to a conspiracy between the choir and his wife.
PD
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
This reminds me of one University which described their Bachelor of Surgery hood, followed by 'Bachelor of Veterinary Surgery: as Bachelor of Surgery, but more fur'!
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
At one time it was that it was almost a point of honour for clergy to wear their hoods until it became an eyesore and a bio-hazard. I remember one clergyman's hood (BA Cantab) that was known to the choir members as "the rotting moggy" due to its delapidated condition. He received a new one on the 25th anniversary of his priesting due to a conspiracy between the choir and his wife.
PD
I'd be more curios to know why he had never proceeded to the MA! Provided he received an Honours degree, he could only have been denied on the grounds of scandalous repute, which sounds exciting!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
IIRC, he did have an MA, but for some reason never bought the hood. He may just have preferred the 'dead cat.' We had another priest who had a London BA, but preferred to wear his Edinburgh Theol. Coll. hood. Another one of the local eccentrics had a D. Phil (Oxford I think) but usually wore his M.A.. The D.Phil hood came out when the bishop came to town, as the Bishop's doctorate was honorary and the good doctor liked to rub it in that he had earned his! Did I say he did not like the Bishop?
I have pretty much abandoned wearing my hood as it is a fiddle to get it on with rochet and chimere.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
In TEC when one is elected and then ordained bishop, it is usual for the new bishop's seminary to award an honorary DD at their next degree-giving.
A friend of mine, a recently retired bishop, always referred to this hood (which IIRC he only wore at Evensong) as his 'donated divinity.'
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Fr Raphael
Apprentice
# 17131
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Posted
Anyone come across an online pattern for making a Dalmatiic and suggest supplier of suitable vestment cloth please - in UK?
[ 17. June 2012, 17:01: Message edited by: Fr Raphael ]
Posts: 40 | Registered: May 2012
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