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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Sorry for a slightly inappropriate question

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Not inappropriate at all. You'll get opinions along with information here. It's generally useful.

[ 22. June 2012, 04:10: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Thanks for the advice! Sorry for a slightly inappropriate question

I will give the local CoE church a try again, it is after all only for a few more months.

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Originally posted by PD:
I would second that! The only thing that has kept my spiritual life alive at times has been Matins and Evensong. It can be totally weird though. You feel like shit and have to read the Laudate Psalms. My God! If that is not a challenge to the ego. what is?

PD

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Originally pPosted by 21stcenturyAnglican:

I'm going to seminary this fall, and it has been recommended to me by a priest friend that I acquire a cappa nigra, as there will be a lot of snow and very cold temperatures.

I have looked online, and while the ones I have found are nice, they are not within my price range at the moment. My wife is willing and eager to make one, but we cannot find a pattern.

Does anyone know where I could find one?

Thanks!

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Originally posted by lily pad:

Check out the costume section of the pattern books at the fabric store. There are lots of patterns for capes and for super hero costumes that work just fine.

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Originally posted by Country Teacher:
I have a question regarding vestments. I have searched high and low and haven't found much to answer my specific question.

I am an ordained minister in the Baptist church, but have been in TEC for a couple of years now and I am in the process of pursuing ordination within TEC. Currently, I am on staff in a stipendary capacity in my parish, which means I frequently serve in a liturgical capacity. Most of the time it is an alb like the priest while the rest of the servers wear cassock and surplice (except acolytes).

I am looking to take on officiating Evening Prayer some time this year for our parish and I have a question regarding choir dress for someone in my position. I know I can wear cassock, surplice and hood; however, would it be permissible to wear the tippet as well? Or is that only for those ordained within TEC?

I know I cannot wear a stole, and am happy to wait. I don't want to overstep my position. Your insights would be most welcomed.

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
Does anybody know when the deacon in the Roman Rite began to wear his stole under the dalmatic?

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:

Does anybody know when the deacon in the Roman Rite began to wear his stole under the dalmatic?

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:

Does anybody know when the deacon in the Roman Rite began to wear his stole under the dalmatic?

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Isn't it an example of Latin tidy-mindedness? Orthodox clergy don't seem to go in for suites of matching vestments in the same way as the west. When deacon and priest are in dalmatic and chasuble of a similar design it would seem natural either to have both stoles on view or neither.

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:

Does anybody know when the deacon in the Roman Rite began to wear his stole under the dalmatic?

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Isn't it an example of Latin tidy-mindedness? Orthodox clergy don't seem to go in for suites of matching vestments in the same way as the west. When deacon and priest are in dalmatic and chasuble of a similar design it would seem natural either to have both stoles on view or neither.

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I'm not sure why it happened, to be honest, although it would be interesting to find out whether it happened during the tidying and choreographing of the Roman Mass. It is curious, for instance, that other Latin rites, such as the the Mozarabic and Ambrosian Rites, for instance, still have the deacon's stole worn over the top of everything else, much like in the Byzantine, Coptic, and Oriental rites. It is specifically in the Roman Rite that this is no longer the case.

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Originally posted by Papouli:
However I am sure that the there is no liturgical difference between the sticharion of the deacon, priest, reader or bishop. The exact same prayer is said for blessing this vestment, and it is always taught in Theological School to be the same vestment amongst all the orders. In other words the baptismal garment (which I think the alb is).

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BTW, in Greece, it is not unseen to use a priest's sticharion (tight sleeves, closed on sides) with the orarion, for deacon's vestments.

Outside of Divine Liturgy, it is perfectly acceptable for the deacon to wear only his orarion over his exorasson.

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I imagine that both of these things are only done in traditions where all deacons wear the double-orar/stole. I have seen photographs from Greek and Antiochian parishes of deacons wearing the double-orar directly over the cassock as you describe but I have never encountered this among the Slavs, where the double-orar is only granted to some deacons as a sign of distinction, or in a special form to archdeacons and protodeacons. As most deacons wear the older form of stole, which fastens on the left shoulder and hands, if they were to try to wear it over the cassock or priest's orar (which have no means of fastening a deacon's stole), it would fall off.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Originally posted by Michael Astley:
At some point, (I do not know when exactly - perhaps Papouli can help), it became the custom in the Greek tradition, and churches that follow it, to give the double-orar to all deacons from the moment of ordination. The practice of deacons wearing the stole directly over the cassock or a priest's stikhar must have arisen after it became possible to do so, while in the Slavic churches, it would be quite impractical.

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Originally posted by cosmic dance:
Sebby, or anyone, can you point me in the direction of some information other than wiki please? Are there any books or websites you know of. Thanks for your help.

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Here's a brief, illustrated history of the fashions of the chasuble. The shape of the chasuble signified something about the perceptions where true tradition was to be found, in rather amusingly contradictory ways, as you can read at the link. The overarching (shape-independent...) spiritual tradition concerning the chasuble sees it as a symbol of charity. Hence the stole, symbol of priestly authority, should be worn beneath the chasuble - so that charity always covers authority. In the traditional vesting prayers the chasuble is associated with the "yoke of Christ".

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Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
If I understand aright, the way to get a klobuk is to take monastic vows and it should be given to you.

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
PD, out of curiosity, is one style heavier (in terms of weightiness rather than heat)? The Gothic revival style has so much more fabric, but isn't the fiddleback heavily lined or something in order to make it more rigid?

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Originally posted by PD:
Personally I prefer a fairly long fiddleback chasuble due to my height. However, the preference for the fiddleback shape is due to the fact it gets rather hot in St Hardup's in the summer - and in the winter too if the old ladies beat me to the thermostat! The good old fiddleback gets the steam out quite nicely; a fact of which I was forceably reminded this morning when I worn the Gothic revival green set and damn near 'boiled in the bag!' A/c has improved the situation in the church, but the ushers persist in leaving the doors open between services which somewhat negates the effect!

PD

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Don't you ever get nostalgic for the East winds of your homeland, Father?


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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Originally posted by Angloid:

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Originally posted by PD:
Personally I prefer a fairly long fiddleback chasuble due to my height. However, the preference for the fiddleback shape is due to the fact it gets rather hot in St Hardup's in the summer - and in the winter too if the old ladies beat me to the thermostat! The good old fiddleback gets the steam out quite nicely; a fact of which I was forceably reminded this morning when I worn the Gothic revival green set and damn near 'boiled in the bag!' A/c has improved the situation in the church, but the ushers persist in leaving the doors open between services which somewhat negates the effect!

PD

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Don't you ever get nostalgic for the East winds of your homeland, Father?

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Isn't it simply a closed chimere?

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Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Isn't it simply a closed chimere?

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I believe that it is - which, of course is unique as it seems to only appear (at least in the Anglican Communion) in North America. If we're correct (and I believe that we are), then it is known in some references as a HISTORIC CHIMERES, and is an elongated version of the mantelletta .

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The chimere is worn by the bishops of the Anglican Communion as a component of their choir habit. It comes in the colours of scarlet, Roman purple, purple, blue purple, and black. The bishop's cassock and the wrist-bands of his rochet typically match his chimere. [...]

Traditionally, the red chimere was worn only by bishops holding the degree of Doctor of Divinity and the black chimere by the others, arising from the academic history of the garment. However, in recent years this distinction has not always been followed.

On the analogy of the Catholic mantelletta certain Anglican prelates, American and colonial, have from time to time appeared in purple chimeres. As the Rev. N. F. Robinson pointed out (in "The black chimere of Anglican Prelates: a plea for its retention and proper use", in Transactions of the St Pauls Ecciesiological Soc. vol. iv., pp. 181–220, London, 1898), this innovation has no historical justification.

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