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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Tatler
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
As nearly as I can tell from the photo, this is the so-called 'New York chimere,' introduced IIRC in TEC by Bps Boynton & Wetmore, suffragans to +Horace Donegan.
+James Montgomery was the first Bp of Chicago to adopt this style, though he had LOTS of other options in his dress-up trunk. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Isn't it simply a closed chimere?
I believe that it is - which, of course is unique as it seems to only appear (at least in the Anglican Communion) in North America. If we're correct (and I believe that we are), then it is known in some references as a HISTORIC CHIMERES, and is an elongated version of the mantelletta .
Would this be the vestment which the Roman Catholic Church now restricts to Monsignori, or am I getting muddled? (again...)
Nope, you're correct! Though nowadays, the only ones allowed to wear them are the highest grade of monsignori, of which only 7 exist.
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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LostinChelsea
Shipmate
# 5305
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Posted
In looking for something else, I ran across a link that contains, if you scroll down, a nice picture of the manteletta.
Make thy click be here
The post begins with a discussion of the varieties of purple, a topic unto itself!
[edited for typo]
[ 27. September 2012, 21:24: Message edited by: LostinChelsea ]
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Best when taken in moderation.
Posts: 237 | From: Deep South USA | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
Nope, you're correct! Though nowadays, the only ones allowed to wear them are the highest grade of monsignori, of which only 7 exist.
As you say, the use of the manteletta is now far more restricted for monsignors than previously. But it is still allowed and worn by some chapters of European cathedrals and by canons of major basilicas, making many more wearing the garment than the seven you may have had in mind. For instance, all the canons of Milan wear the manteletta, as do the canons of the Vatican. the Lateran and St. Mary Major.
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Edgeman
Shipmate
# 12867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by Edgeman:
Nope, you're correct! Though nowadays, the only ones allowed to wear them are the highest grade of monsignori, of which only 7 exist.
As you say, the use of the manteletta is now far more restricted for monsignors than previously. But it is still allowed and worn by some chapters of European cathedrals and by canons of major basilicas, making many more wearing the garment than the seven you may have had in mind. For instance, all the canons of Milan wear the manteletta, as do the canons of the Vatican. the Lateran and St. Mary Major.
*
I did forget that the canons of the major basilicas may wear it, but other than that, It has definitely been abolished for all other canonries. Fortunately, it's disobeyed pretty much everywhere. (Even when the cathedral chapter of Glasgow reformed their choir dress, they kept the rochet and pectoral cross.)
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http://sacristyxrat.tumblr.com/
Posts: 1420 | From: Philadelphia Penns. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
The +Lee I mentioned upthread is Jeffrey Lee, Bishop of the Diocese of Chicago.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Which +Lee would this be? Our +Lee has a penchant for pretending he is in Syndey and wearing a suit when he does confirmations.
Don't worry Leo, I won't be sending you to the arena for mis-spelling the name of our city and Diocese - you might get indigestion from eating so many conservative evos.
Mind you, I'd be only too happy to send you a whole A380 load of Sydney bishops and clergy to keep your +Lee company. Mind you, though, there would be a whole lot of Sydney lay folk who would either (a) not notice that the clergy were in fact missing, or b) delight in the fact that they weren't there and so could get on and take the road to congregationalism even further.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Which +Lee would this be?
Our +Lee has a penchant for pretending he is in Syndey and wearing a suit when he does confirmations.
In all seriousness, can anybody who would do that- unless as a pastoral concession to an extreme Evangelical congregation which would otherwise be lost to the CofE- actually understand what being a Bishop in the Church of England is about? The robes, of course, do not make the Bishop: but deliberately to reject the wearing of them seems to me to be a repudiation of a whole complex of historical, cultural and, yes, perhaps even theological understandings, which surround and distinguish the idea of episcopacy as it has developed in the CofE.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Our +Lee does many, many good things so I don't question his views on robes. At least he and the diocesan (also an evangelical wear full eucharistic vestments for the Chrism Eucharist (the previous diocesan always wore a cope, regardless of the churchmanship of wherever he was going - a sort of compromise which pleased nobody much).
Sorry to misspell Sydney.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Fair enough: you know him, I don't. Still can't get my head round it, though.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
I don't think any of the current Sydney bishops would go as far as to wear a suit to confirm, but I may be wrong. I have attended a confirmation in Armidale diocese when +Brain wore choir dress but had to be instructed by the rector of the parish on the choreography of the liturgy before the service, even down to the use of the crozier and in which hand it should be held.
Posts: 375 | From: Hunter Valley NSW | Registered: Sep 2010
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
I don't think any of the current Sydney bishops would go as far as to wear a suit to confirm, but I may be wrong.
Some Sydney bishops certainly wouldn't, while others are an entirely different kettle of fish. The Bishop for the Western Region, one +Ivan Lee, once instructed a parish to NOT have robed clergy or choir during an induction service, suits and, if they wished to dress up, clerical collars; he had to be asked speciafically to wear choir dress for a confirmation, which he said he normally sits on the congregation and wears a suit rather than anything special.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
...which he said he normally sits on the congregation and wears a suit rather than anything special.
He wears a suit of the correct liturgical color, right?
Hmmm...it's December, it's Advent, it's Spring, so it must be Seersucker.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
...which he said he normally sits on the congregation and wears a suit rather than anything special.
He wears a suit of the correct liturgical color, right?
Hmmm...it's December, it's Advent, it's Spring, so it must be Seersucker.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
I don't think any of the current Sydney bishops would go as far as to wear a suit to confirm, but I may be wrong.
Some Sydney bishops certainly wouldn't, while others are an entirely different kettle of fish. The Bishop for the Western Region, one +Ivan Lee, once instructed a parish to NOT have robed clergy or choir during an induction service, suits and, if they wished to dress up, clerical collars; he had to be asked speciafically to wear choir dress for a confirmation, which he said he normally sits on the congregation and wears a suit rather than anything special.
Shame, shame! And when you next see "Ivan," tell him I said so.
*
Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Erm, what's going on here? The cleric first from the right is wearing red piping on her cassock. Fair enough, I assume she's a canon and her parish webpage confirms that she is, indeed, Canon Brenda Hurd.
However, she's also wearing a red piped cincture. Now, I've seen a few of these in my time and all of them on SSC priests. In fact, my understanding was that the red-piped cincture was the SSC cincture.
Has it got a wider usage, or has she just bought the wrong one?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
A bit of Googling suggest you are right, Thurible. This is not, one takes it, the usual usage for canons of Rochester?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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sebby
Shipmate
# 15147
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas Aus:
I don't think any of the current Sydney bishops would go as far as to wear a suit to confirm, but I may be wrong.
Some Sydney bishops certainly wouldn't, while others are an entirely different kettle of fish. The Bishop for the Western Region, one +Ivan Lee, once instructed a parish to NOT have robed clergy or choir during an induction service, suits and, if they wished to dress up, clerical collars; he had to be asked speciafically to wear choir dress for a confirmation, which he said he normally sits on the congregation and wears a suit rather than anything special.
Shame, shame! And when you next see "Ivan," tell him I said so.
*
He sounds a real twat
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sebhyatt
Posts: 1340 | From: yorks | Registered: Sep 2009
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
Some people have even said that +Ivan would make a good Archbishop of Sydney when ++Peter retires this year! Mind you, I totally doubt the sanity of such minded people.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
It seems we've moved from evaluating bishops' clothing to evaluating bishops. Can we get back to the Ecclesiantical topics please?
Many thanks.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I find that in general the prejudice that once existed against Eucharistic vestments has diminished to the point where I am usually OK in Eucharistic vestments with mitre and crozier when appropriate when performing Episcopal functions in the context of a Eucharist where I am the celebrant. Otherwise I stick with rochet and chimere - it fits in my carry-on bag better! Ah, the joys of being a (literal) Flying Bishop! Draging around cope, mitre, cassock, rochet, etc., can be - well, erm - a drag!
PD
[ 08. October 2012, 05:31: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
One much-loved retired bishop in this diocese (many years ago actually) used to carry his mitre in a plastic bag and don it together with whatever vestments the church provided. I've only seen it in respectable-looking configurations but I could imagine some bizarre pairings.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I find that in general the prejudice that once existed against Eucharistic vestments has diminished to the point where I am usually OK in Eucharistic vestments with mitre and crozier when appropriate when performing Episcopal functions in the context of a Eucharist where I am the celebrant. Otherwise I stick with rochet and chimere - it fits in my carry-on bag better! Ah, the joys of being a (literal) Flying Bishop! Draging around cope, mitre, cassock, rochet, etc., can be - well, erm - a drag!
PD
The late +James Mote used to carry a collapsable crosier when travelling to remote parishes. It was a silver metallic device with a cross motif in its crook and could be broken down into three pieces, making it about 18 to 24 inches in length when not in use. It's the only one of that sort I've ever seen. I seem to recall that it could be folded up on itself, though it possibly had to be taken apart into three sections. It was also a very light little thing.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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crunt
Shipmate
# 1321
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The late +James Mote used to carry a collapsable crosier when travelling to remote parishes. [/QB]
I seem to remember +Derek of Monmouth bringing such a crozier on a visit to our church in the 1970s. We all admired how it broke down to fit into a carry-case. The other thing I remember about the bishop's visit is the head server's claim to have farted while holding the book for the bishop to read from.
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Posts: 269 | From: Up country in the middle of Malaysia | Registered: Sep 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I'm not sure about the Bishop of Oxford's crosier but both the current and former Bishops of Ebbsfleet had collapsible crosiers. I assumed they were just standard. (Even +Andrew's Lenten, wooden walking stick came apart.)
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Yes, I thought it was fairly standard. I can't really see +Pete carrying his crozier on the Bakerloo line otherwise!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The late +James Mote used to carry a collapsable crosier when travelling to remote parishes. It was a silver metallic device with a cross motif in its crook and could be broken down into three pieces, making it about 18 to 24 inches in length when not in use. It's the only one of that sort I've ever seen. I seem to recall that it could be folded up on itself, though it possibly had to be taken apart into three sections. It was also a very light little thing.
These are quite common and most manufacturers make them in such fashion even though the design of the sections is often cleverly disguised.
[fixed code]
[ 24. October 2012, 11:35: Message edited by: seasick ]
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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The Sainted Percy
Apprentice
# 17388
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Posted
A little 'tat' question regarding the Warham Guild style of hood - i.e. this http://static.flickr.com/26/64471835_a21c5c3636.jpg, I believe worn by Percy Dearmer himself, does anyone still make them? If so, from whence do you get them?
[fixed broken link]
[ 24. October 2012, 11:26: Message edited by: seasick ]
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Every working man to have a minimum of four hundred a year and every beastly manufacturer who wanted to pay less to be hung.
High Toryism described by Ford Madox Ford
Posts: 21 | Registered: Oct 2012
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The Sainted Percy
Apprentice
# 17388
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Posted
Sorry for posting twice in a row! The link does not work; and I can't edit the post to remove it - there are some plates in the Parson's Handbook, which you can get on 'archive.org', as well as, I am sure, lots of pictures on the internet. There's a particularly good one of Percy Dearmer himself in full surplice, Canterbury cap, cassock, bands and hood (he looks as splendid as that sounds) but I can't find it.
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Every working man to have a minimum of four hundred a year and every beastly manufacturer who wanted to pay less to be hung.
High Toryism described by Ford Madox Ford
Posts: 21 | Registered: Oct 2012
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Peter Owen
Shipmate
# 134
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Sainted Percy:
The link does not work.
It does if you remove the comma from the end.
link that works
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Πετρος
Posts: 266 | From: overlooking Liverpool Bay | Registered: May 2001
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
Wippells of Exeter are the only makers of Warham Guild hoods.
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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The Sainted Percy
Apprentice
# 17388
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Posted
Peter Owen: Oops. Chalk it up to being new here!
Clavus: Thank you so much. I've been looking everywhere!
The Sainted Percy
[ 24. October 2012, 05:43: Message edited by: The Sainted Percy ]
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Every working man to have a minimum of four hundred a year and every beastly manufacturer who wanted to pay less to be hung.
High Toryism described by Ford Madox Ford
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
The Sainted Percy
Welcome to Ecclesiantics and to Ship of Fools. I hope that you enjoy discussing things here. Do familiarise yourself with the 10 commandments and the board guidelines. There's a welcome thread in All Saints where you might like to introduce yourself too.
Happy sailing.
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I find that in general the prejudice that once existed against Eucharistic vestments has diminished to the point where I am usually OK in Eucharistic vestments with mitre and crozier when appropriate when performing Episcopal functions in the context of a Eucharist where I am the celebrant. Otherwise I stick with rochet and chimere - it fits in my carry-on bag better! Ah, the joys of being a (literal) Flying Bishop! Draging around cope, mitre, cassock, rochet, etc., can be - well, erm - a drag!
PD
The late +James Mote used to carry a collapsable crosier when travelling to remote parishes. It was a silver metallic device with a cross motif in its crook and could be broken down into three pieces, making it about 18 to 24 inches in length when not in use. It's the only one of that sort I've ever seen. I seem to recall that it could be folded up on itself, though it possibly had to be taken apart into three sections. It was also a very light little thing.
I knew +Mote vaguely as he was on the trustees when I was in the seminary, and he used to arrive, iced tea in hand, for several days each semester. As the only overseas student I was something of an object of curiosity, so I got to talk at leagth with any ACC bishop who darkened the door of the Sem..
Returning to croziers...
I have a wooden one that breaks down into four pieces each 18" long. Unfortunately, it is not TSA-proof, as the screeners have complete discretion and if one of them is onery or clueless they could require me to check it, which has a strong chance of being a major hassle. Therefore it only flies Southwest. I am too mean to pay $50-100 roundtrip for my crozier to go too when I have to travel Delta or American.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
I'm reposting this from the lately closed random questions thread, as it may fare better here:
quote:
On the liturgical furnishings front, I wonder if any shipmates have seen anything like our Paschal candlestick (3 pics), now sadly in need of some TLC. Any ideas about its provenance?
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Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
The Bishop of Ottawa's crozier (which I think dates from Robert Jefferson fl. 1939-1954) is also foldable and fits into a neat little wooden carrying case. The diocese is too geographically small for flying about, so I don't know if it causes much trouble with the aeroplane security folk.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
The Church I'm at is looking to get a new mass set with matching altar frontal and frontlet.
I was hoping someone would be able to suggest either a 'one-stop shop' or if need be several places where the altar vestments match up with another makers mass set.
Also, if anyone could comment on the type of material and quality they have come across of the places they have suggested I would be grateful.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
The Church I'm at is looking to get a new mass set with matching altar frontal and frontlet.
I was hoping someone would be able to suggest either a 'one-stop shop' or if need be several places where the altar vestments match up with another makers mass set.
Also, if anyone could comment on the type of material and quality they have come across of the places they have suggested I would be grateful.
Anglicans online has a healthy list of options.
In terms of quality, it all depends entirely on how much you are willing (or able) to spend. Most likely your parish will run out of money before the artisans run out of quality.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
The Church I'm at is looking to get a new mass set with matching altar frontal and frontlet.
I was hoping someone would be able to suggest either a 'one-stop shop' or if need be several places where the altar vestments match up with another makers mass set.
Also, if anyone could comment on the type of material and quality they have come across of the places they have suggested I would be grateful.
Anglicans online has a healthy list of options.
In terms of quality, it all depends entirely on how much you are willing (or able) to spend. Most likely your parish will run out of money before the artisans run out of quality.
Yeah I know that's true... having wistfully longed for this day I could spend the Euromillions jackpot all on fabrics etc. for Church... I'll hold in mind the list of options thrown up, it's so Fthr. and I can sit down and decide what we want and worry about the cost a little further down the line once we've told PCC what we want.
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Tat is forever burned into my mind from my time hosting here--as soon as I saw the picture of Justice Scalia's headgear at the Inauguration yesterday, I recognized as a variant of a Tudor bonnet. I hate myself.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
And to think that you never used to be able to tell a chasuble from a cotta!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Emendator Liturgia
Shipmate
# 17245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
The Church I'm at is looking to get a new mass set with matching altar frontal and frontlet.
I was hoping someone would be able to suggest either a 'one-stop shop' or if need be several places where the altar vestments match up with another makers mass set.
Also, if anyone could comment on the type of material and quality they have come across of the places they have suggested I would be grateful.
Sergius-Melli, thyere are ways of avoiding the very high costs usually associated with professional makers of vestments, even to their preferred choice of materials. One seller on eBay, for instance, has liturgical vestment brocade for about $17 per yard, much less than others charge.
Our sacristan makes all the vestments, including altar frontals and falls, etc. As he now has us set up with about 14 different sets (yes, I know, we just can't stop him from producing more and more), he's loking at making and selling some. If you like I can get him to contact you - if you know what sorts of materials, designs etc you want.
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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!
Posts: 401 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jul 2012
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
A new start church I was once attending, found that by buying end of run pieces of material from an upholstery shop they were able to afford to make a very nice set for smaller price.
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NatDogg
Shipmate
# 14347
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Horrid humble crumble.
Lord i am not worthy so i will show off to all and sundry how unworthy I am, in all humility, of course.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 139 | Registered: Dec 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Yes I would have thought the best way to be self-effacing would be to avoid any purely personal adornments that draw attention to oneself.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
It's becoming a thing to express one's individuality on one's tippet. I blame the guy that decided the seal of one's seminary was OK. Give them an inch...
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Interesting version of a tippet.
Any Anglican style gurus care to comment?
Oh dear! Is that ++John Sentamu? My opinion of his judgement, if not of his character, has just taken a dive. I've gone from indifferent to definitely horrified.
From the pretensions of the Archbishop of York and all his detestable tippets:
Good Lord deliver us.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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