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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Tatler
Manipled Mutineer
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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
In my years in Chicago this sort of fedora with a wider-than-usual brim was called by a priest friend who wore one, a 'Borsalino,' but IIRC that was the name of the manufacturer, not the style.

Yes, Borsalino is indeed the maker, and a well-reputed one. Bates Hatters make a good wide-brimmed fedora as, at a lower price point, does Christy's. I struggle to visualize a cleric wearing one though!

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dj_ordinaire
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(Nothing much to add, as my experience of hats is sadly limited... but good to see you posting again MM!)

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Percy B
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I searched on wippells website and they still sell the Canterbury cap. I have seldom seen it worn and then only seen it worn by a priest wearing a cassock, or long cloak.

I guess there are not rules about its use but is that how it is worn?

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Mary, a priest??

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:

Now what about the outdoor hats? That is the hats worn in day to day work, sometimes, perhaps with cassocks, sometimes without.


Not therefore, I presume, this line-up monochromic merriment.

For outdoor work, ecclesiastical and otherwise (and is there a difference?) I opt for iconic Oz. However, whereas two parishes back I did sometimes ride a horse on visits (documentation of mileage claims became a problem) I would wear a less stylish hat when I did. And I didn't get the girl. [Frown]

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Manipled Mutineer
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Thanks DJO! It is nice to be back.

Percy B, I believe that the Canterbury Cap is part of clergy outdoor dress. I suppose it could be worn indoors like the biretta but it is rather hard to doff. There is a good anecdote about Dearmer and his Canterbury Cap which I shall relate another time.

Zappa, I am glad to see you patronize Akubra, they make fine dress hats too. I covet their Federation IV!

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Percy B
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Thanks MM whar I specifically wondered though about the Canterbury cap is it only with the cassock when outdoors or with suit, or coat? I've only seen with cassock.

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Mary, a priest??

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Manipled Mutineer
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
Thanks MM whar I specifically wondered though about the Canterbury cap is it only with the cassock when outdoors or with suit, or coat? I've only seen with cassock.

I would say it really calls for a cassock and clergy gown. I'm sure I have a picture of Dearmer modelling one.I'll seeing if I can dig it up.

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Augustine the Aleut
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Canterbury cap, with cassock (and for those who can afford it) and cloak often feature at Anglican funerals in Canada for the graveside part.
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sebby
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There are many pictures of Michael Ramsey either wearing or carrying a Canterbury cap when Archbishop. The most famous being his meeting with Pope Paul VI.


A slight digression on ++Michael: to his immense surprise at their meeting in Rome, Paul VI presented him with a beautiful episcopal ring. Michael Ramsey was speechless, and just stood there, and gently started to cry, with his large shoulders heaving.

Later than evening, the Pope's secretary called on the Archbishop's chaplain with a little empty box. The pope, he said, had forgotten to give the box that the ring came in, and had later found it in his cassock pocket.

++Michael's chaplain replied that it was unnecesary, as the Archbishop of Canterbury was so moved he would never take the ring off.

The pope's secretary replied 'The Holy Father knew that would be the case, therefore he has asked me to give you the box as a little souvenir for yourself.'

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sebhyatt

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Basilica
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Watching the goings on in Rome over the last few days, I have been totally and utterly confused by the array of cassocks on show.

As an Anglican, I am used to black cassocks on everyone, with a splash of purple on a bishop and red on a canon. Clearly there is a whole world of cassock/fascia colouring of which I am sadly ignorant.

Could anyone explain what the rules are? Who wears what colours? Does it differ for choir dress/street dress/Eucharistic dress?

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Angloid
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# 159

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Nothing like the variety you would get if you ranged up canons of all the English cathedrals: from powder blue to greeny grey to brickdust red.

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Mama Thomas
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I knew a church that had dozens of cassocks for tall, medium and short kids and tall, medium and short adults. I believe they even had a couple of maternity cassocks on hand. But what makes it more striking is that they had green cassocks for Epiphany and Trinity, Red for those days, white for those days, purple for Advent and Lent and there may have been some black ones somewhere.

It irks me to see priests wear cassocks that are of the same shade as those formerly only worn by bishops even if they something or other. It should bother me, but I am annoyed that they get their jollies by dressing like that. Reminds me of the type of people who have expensive credit cards to impress parking booth attendants.

Sometimes they get piping on them, red or purple depending on some rule they've read somewhere that suits them.

There's a wonderful photo in a church I know showing the priest, a "cardinal" rector dressed exactly like a pope: white cassock and skull cap, mozzeta, pectoral cross and ring--and his lovely wife by his side. Not for fancy dress: Father ___ often dressed that way. May he rest in peace.

One priest I know has his main cassock in Arabian style. Since my enormous weight gain, I wear an Orthodox style cassock. It was far cheaper anyway.

I know another priest who when he became dean of some place book a flight to Rome and went to THE place in Rome (can't remember which) and got kitted out like a cardinal--because he was now a dean.

In the Anglican Communion, it seems cassock and their meanings are all over the map.

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Anglican_Brat
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Before coming to my current city, I always assumed that people put amices on by putting it on their heads first. Now in my current city, the priests who use amices tend to put it on their shoulders. Any light on this difference?
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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Before coming to my current city, I always assumed that people put amices on by putting it on their heads first. Now in my current city, the priests who use amices tend to put it on their shoulders. Any light on this difference?

I put it on my head, because after the alb and tunicle go over it, it needs to come down and form a little hood behind my neck. But I've seen amices kept mainly on the neck and shoulders, and this forms a closer, perhaps neater neck covering.

I don't think there's any essential theology behind this; the amice merely protects the vestments from sweat and skin oils. Far easier and cheaper to wash an amice than a tunicle. And it still works for the priest as he prays, "Impone, Domine, capiti meo galeam salutis, ad expugnandos diabolicos incursus" (Place upon me, O Lord, the helmet of salvation, that I may overcome the assaults of the devil).

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Mama Thomas
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I can only think that they're not saying the prayer that goes with or saying another prayer. I always say a prayer when it's on my pate. Also, some priests don't put it on the shoulders until everything else goes on, leaving it as a hoodie type thing. And once the Alice is up, NO asking the priest anything once the amice is on. It's a sign that someone is praying and don't interrupt.

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fletcher christian

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posted by Oblatus:
quote:

I don't think there's any essential theology behind this; the amice merely protects the vestments from sweat and skin oils.

Was there not a theological reason for the amice being on the head as the clergy processed to the altar and pulled down when in the sanctuary? I did read about this somewhere, but can't for the life of me remember where.

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Snackristan
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Oblatus:
quote:

I don't think there's any essential theology behind this; the amice merely protects the vestments from sweat and skin oils.

Was there not a theological reason for the amice being on the head as the clergy processed to the altar and pulled down when in the sanctuary? I did read about this somewhere, but can't for the life of me remember where.
That's a Dominican thing, isn't it?
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venbede
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Surely you put the amice over your head first so that when you put on the alb over it, the back of the amice can fold down looking like a folded down hood?

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leo
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I have only seen an amice put on the head if it is appareled. Then it is put back so that the apparel sits on top of the chasuble, dalmatic or whatever.

I was taught to put it on like that as a server in my teens. It sat back over the alb.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Snackristan:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Oblatus:
quote:

I don't think there's any essential theology behind this; the amice merely protects the vestments from sweat and skin oils.

Was there not a theological reason for the amice being on the head as the clergy processed to the altar and pulled down when in the sanctuary? I did read about this somewhere, but can't for the life of me remember where.
That's a Dominican thing, isn't it?
Dominican would appear to be right (scroll about halfway down). It doesn't say why, just that it is their practice!

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Oblatus
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Snackristan:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
posted by Oblatus:
quote:

I don't think there's any essential theology behind this; the amice merely protects the vestments from sweat and skin oils.

Was there not a theological reason for the amice being on the head as the clergy processed to the altar and pulled down when in the sanctuary? I did read about this somewhere, but can't for the life of me remember where.
That's a Dominican thing, isn't it?
Dominican would appear to be right (scroll about halfway down). It doesn't say why, just that it is their practice!
It seems to be an alternative to the biretta, so the theology behind it might be similar. I confess that I don't really know any theology behind the biretta, though.
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Ceremoniar
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Over the head, then pulled down=English practice
Over the neck and shoulders=historically a continental practice, especially Roman

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sebby
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quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:


It irks me to see priests wear cassocks that are of the same shade as those formerly only worn by bishops even if they something or other. It should bother me, but I am annoyed that they get their jollies by dressing like that. Reminds me of the type of people who have expensive credit cards to impress parking booth attendants.

Sometimes they get piping on them, red or purple depending on some rule they've read somewhere that suits them.


++Rowan Williams, who preferred a plain black cassock with purple cincture for more everyday use, once jokingly said to Giles Fraser when the latter had become a canon of St Paul's and, rather unexpectedly I would imagine for Giles Fraser) wore a more 'adorned' cassock:

'It all starts with the piping Giles. That's where it all starts.'

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sebhyatt

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Carys

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I heard today of a church which owns at least one chasuble with a zip. Not a long zip, just a short one to make the head hole a bit bigger, but the priest who'd come across this said that when they tried to do the zip up the chasuble slipped round but when they then straightened it the zip came undone. We did wonder if they should have asked the sacristan 'what do you call this?' and asked for a chasuble. Anyone come across anything similar?

Carys

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Angloid
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Some priests are known for having big heads. Hence the need for the zip.

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Offeiriad

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# 14031

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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
I heard today of a church which owns at least one chasuble with a zip. Not a long zip, just a short one to make the head hole a bit bigger, but the priest who'd come across this said that when they tried to do the zip up the chasuble slipped round but when they then straightened it the zip came undone. We did wonder if they should have asked the sacristan 'what do you call this?' and asked for a chasuble. Anyone come across anything similar?

Carys

(Oo, moved to Bristol have you?) I've never met a chasuble with a zip (though I've found a few where you can't put it on while wearing glasses), but one of my churches in my last job had a chasuble with an opening at the front closed by two press studs, which I found both strange and inconvenient.
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Emendator Liturgia
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Anyone come across anything similar?

I haven't seen a zipped chas. for a while - though there is one in my vestment press: it was given to me by a fellow student at college and features a hand-stitched cross and crown of thorns. Makes a very nice Lenten fall...

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Jon in the Nati
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I have one with a zip and a couple with snaps (one is the parish's and other was a gift). They are usually unnecessary for me, but I've known priests who would struggle to put them on without that extra space. I suppose I never found it to be that unusual.

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PD
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The requiem set in this parish has a couple of press-studs in the front to make the head hole smaller so it does not gape so much at the neck. This is a handy feature as it saves having to remove my glasses.

On the subject of fancy cassocks...

It seems to me that every chump of a certain churchmanship who gets made a Canon runs out and buy the appropriate piped cassock. The fancy cassock is not so bad, but if you are unlucky they also get the lacy rochet (aka "Shirley Temple") and mozetta to go with it - regardless of what the bishop thinks about his clergy playing dress-up.

I seem to think that in the Roman Rite, whose dress code they are following, Canons were granted the rochet as a privilege by the Pope and it was not really supposed to be worn 'by right' by all Canons, just those to whom it had been granted. I also remember something about Paul VI trying to change the custom on that, but it did not stick - especially in Poland apparently.

PD

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Percy B
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I heard there was a recommended vestment supplier from India. Can any kind soul point me to a website?

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Mary, a priest??

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Intrepid Thurifer
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Try this site:
http://catholicliturgicals.com/estore.php

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ExclamationMark
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quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
.... they still sell the Canterbury cap.

Is that a kentish form of birth control that is used in the home counties?
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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Percy B:
.... they still sell the Canterbury cap.

Is that a kentish form of birth control that is used in the home counties?
Only in parishes under gavelkind.

PD writes:
quote:
I seem to think that in the Roman Rite, whose dress code they are following, Canons were granted the rochet as a privilege by the Pope and it was not really supposed to be worn 'by right' by all Canons, just those to whom it had been granted. I also remember something about Paul VI trying to change the custom on that, but it did not stick - especially in Poland apparently.
A number of European cathedral and collegiate chapters have got a slew (or sh**load, if you prefer) of sartorial privileges. Some chapters get rochets, others (especially in Spain) really spectacular birettas, some even get ermine capes. Surely anything more than a workmanlike black sarum requires the concession or award of a privilege-- in the absence of a pope, Anglicans could rely on the Archbishop of Canterbury (as legatus natus) or their local primate.

And, of course, there are wicked folk like me who would lift the privilege if vespers and matins were not said daily by that chapter.

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MrsBeaky
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# 17663

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Blimey this is a long thread!

Just wondered whether or not facial hair could constitute a form of "tat"? I've never forgotten this moment from my daughter's wedding in an Orthodox Church in Athens:
The priest wore magnificent robes with an even more magnificent beard....so much so that the ubiquitous video man managed to get his power lead entangled in said priest's beard....it was altogether quite an experience!

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Albertus
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Sounds like something that the great Fr Forrest (third one down) would have enjoyed.

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Percy B
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Great article thanks for that link!

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Mary, a priest??

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MrsBeaky
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Yes, thank you, it was a great article.

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seasick

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<kick>

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Ouch! OK, just to say -- there are two great pages on facebook for facebooking liturgical snobs: Society for the Elimination of the Cassock-Alb; and Society Against Tacky Vestments.
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Galilit
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# 16470

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We - well the RevC - just got a New Cassock in grey. Not charcoal, not light but grey. "School grey" for those whose memories stretch back a few decades or whose geography means they are intimately acquainted with it still.
Though we are Church of Scotland he wears appropriately coloured stoles.

We now wonder - what are we going to do about green? It is really not an easy shade of grey for which to find a green...

We have a nice white one with a nice green/gold /maroon faux-Celtic band at the bottom of each end.

But the other 2 "green ones" are a shade of petrol green (with embroidery in blues) and a bright lime with royal blue print (United Church of Zambia crest).

There are no doubt more than Fifty Shades of Green but has anyone any suggestions?

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011  |  IP: Logged
Emendator Liturgia
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# 17245

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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
There are no doubt more than Fifty Shades of Green but has anyone any suggestions?

The best starting point would be to consider either returning the said article - a grey cassock is surely to tempt the Baby Jesus to cry up a storm - or else to dye the said article a suitable shade of black.

Of course, the obvious starting points are not always obvious to everyone else ...

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Don't judge all Anglicans in Sydney by prevailing Diocesan standards!

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Knopwood
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# 11596

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If Wikipedia is to be believed, grey is the colour of the habit of the secular clergy in the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil, a compromise measure when the ban on CA clergy dressing as such (on the pretext that it engendered confusion with their RC counterparts) was lifted by the government.
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Galilit
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# 16470

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quote:
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
... grey cassock is surely to tempt the Baby Jesus to cry up a storm...

The Baby Jesus likes them as one of His blankets was that colour - woven from the wool of a black sheep that came to His crib. One of the shepherds spun and knitted it after the shearing
and sent it to Poste Restante, Cairo where Joseph called in every Tuesday in his lunch-time.
It is a very cuddly shade of grey, He says

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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He will, of course, be wearing a surplice?

So no problem, very little (if any) of the green stole will be against the grey cassock.

Though why anyone would want a grey cassock is beyond me.

Any thought given to the "50 shades of" jokes that the offending article is bound to attract.

Cassocks are BLACK unless you are in a royal foundation.

At a pinch deepest navy (I mean RN, not French) is just about bearable.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Galilit
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# 16470

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No, just the cassock.

He got a whole stapled together thingy of swatches posted out - there was even maroon and light blue. CofS chaps and chap-ess-es get about in all sorts, doncha know.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Ouch! OK, just to say -- there are two great pages on facebook for facebooking liturgical snobs: Society for the Elimination of the Cassock-Alb; and Society Against Tacky Vestments.

Thank you for posting this-- I have just signed up for the SECA.

As far as cassock colours are concerned, black is of course the default, with white in warmer climes (Ottawa is notoriously Siberia for half the year and the Amazon for the next half), and perhaps scarlet for royal and vice-regal chaplains, but as long as the cassock colour is restrained and not political in intent, I don't see a problem. One needs to mention restraint to discourage those who opt for chrome yellow or electric prune. As well, there are those clergy who would wear their party politics on their sleeve (or skirt) and cassocks of red-for-Liberal, blue-for-Tory, or orange-for- NDP, would be as offensive and abusive as a campaign badge. And a cleric who has a cassock in a colour to match his British-racing-green Morgan should have a serious chat with his spiritual director.

Among the Orthodox, grey and blue of various shades can often be seen on the riassa-clad. After a while you get used to it, but I am told that presbyteras are not keen on the lighter colours, for reasons connected to dry-cleaning bills.

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Forthview
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# 12376

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CofS chaps and chapesses don't usually,if ever indeed,wear a surplice.They might occasionally wear an alb.however.
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Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
We - well the RevC - just got a New Cassock in grey. Not charcoal, not light but grey. "School grey" for those whose memories stretch back a few decades or whose geography means they are intimately acquainted with it still.
Though we are Church of Scotland he wears appropriately coloured stoles.

We now wonder - what are we going to do about green? It is really not an easy shade of grey for which to find a green...

We have a nice white one with a nice green/gold /maroon faux-Celtic band at the bottom of each end.

But the other 2 "green ones" are a shade of petrol green (with embroidery in blues) and a bright lime with royal blue print (United Church of Zambia crest).

There are no doubt more than Fifty Shades of Green but has anyone any suggestions?

Chartreuse looks nice against grey but I am [Eek!] at wearing a stole over a cassock with no alb or surplice. Stoles really need white against them.

If CoS clergy who wear stoles don't wear albs or surplices, what do they do when the correct liturgical colour is black? Surely it won't show up very well?

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Forthview
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# 12376

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There is no 'correct' liturgical colour for the Church of Scotland clergy.Some churches will have pulpit falls following the Western liturgical sequence of colours but few parishioners will know (or care) anything about this.Some ministers,but not too many, will wear stoles,many of these being of their own devising.

A few years ago I took part in a Church of Scotland Communion service in a Home for Senior citizens.It was the Third Sunday of Advent and the minister wore a red stole.Thinking I might be worried (I wasn't in the slightest !) she said ,'I know it's not the right colour,but I've only got a red stole.' 'Oh, said another lady,'I thought you were wearing that to look Christmassy.'

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Galilit
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# 16470

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I saw a red stole in Advent in 2010 and was traumatised for 2 weeks. The next year we hid the red stole in Advent. Then in 2012 we couldn't remember where it was hidden when we needed it for Christmas.
I have been told that they don't understand liturgical colours in Scotland. They sort of wear something that they like or got given or borrow something they think "looks nice" if visiting.

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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011  |  IP: Logged



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