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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Tatler
Eddy
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Oh!

Don't they look pretty!

That picture surely deserves a caption competition!

Seems this Oxford do was a bit of a laugh!

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Oh!

Don't they look pretty!

That picture surely deserves a caption competition!

Seems this Oxford do was a bit of a laugh!

Yeah, it brings new meaning to PEV:

Pretty
Eccentric
Vicars

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Eddy
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[Killing me] m Martin L [Killing me]

And where do they get those lacy cottas from???
Tell me who sells them PLEASE I must get one or two, lol!

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Doublethink.
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Your wish is my command ....

Or for your finer moments ...

[ 20. September 2009, 21:29: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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Eddy
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Good try Doublethink, but neither have as much lace as the ones in the photos!

Everyone must have one like they have - but if they did what would they wear to be different!

Seems to me Anglo Catholic tat is a bit like that - who can be the prettiest boy around, and certainly who can stand out the most. Thats why a lot of 'em dont want to be RC 'cos then they'd be small fishes in a big pond.

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Foaming Draught
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Do dust-covers for data projectors, and the variety thereof, count as tat for the purposes of this thread? And do we count the sartorial features of those communion services where the leader/presider/person running the show communes/is served last (I have in mind Lutheran churches of the Queensland District, and my own dear Infirmary for Sick Dissenters) as appropriate material? I bought a lovely Tommy Hilfiger short-sleeved shirt on Saturday, a steal from the airport estate factory shop, in a fetching liturgically-neutral shade of sort-of orangey-yellow so that it won't be limited to any particular season of the church's year. Would you like a photo?

FD

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Doublethink.
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Well, I think that one of the defining features of tat is that it has a symbolic function. So if you would like to show a photo of a completely tat-free service - then the eccles photo thread would be the place.

However, if you happen to have decided to decorate your projector cover in a way that enhances your worship then it would be fine to put on this thread.

Doublethink
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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PD
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Someone asked how recently bishops, archdeacons, etc. wore Apron and Gaiters. FWIW, I remember them being worn occasionally in the Diocese of Lincoln in the late 1970s. +Phipps and the then Archdeaon of Stow wore them at a hunt bollocks, and other similar occasions.

I don't think the dress version of the old Episcopal rig is yet defunct. I ran into George Carey in Episcopal Evening dress c. 1992, and I have to say it suited him. I think I have also seen a photo of +Chartres in same more recently.

Left to my own devices I would wear Apron and Gaiters for diocesan meetings and formal dinners, but I don't have the money. Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

[ 27. September 2009, 05:36: Message edited by: PD ]

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Doublethink.
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I think you meant bullocks rather than bollocks ...

What is the point you make with the rochet & chimere ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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PD
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No, I meant "the hunt bollock" - a.k.a. "The Hunt Ball." A fairly important occasion in the local social calendar back then.

As for rochet and chimere, they are actually the equivalent of the priest's cassock and gown and are the old outdoor dress of bishops. Therefore, it seems logical to wear them when, for example, I chair Diocesan Synod. The black or dark grey suit and purple shirt has become so pervasive that it is nice to shake things up once in a while. Also, with all those dark suits around it begins to look like a political conference, not a church meeting.

PD

[ 27. September 2009, 14:05: Message edited by: PD ]

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Doublethink.
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Found a priest in gaiters.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Left to my own devices I would wear Apron and Gaiters for diocesan meetings and formal dinners, but I don't have the money.
PD

[Killing me] I'm not so sure that is a good idea in your conservative region!

quote:
Foaming:
And do we count the sartorial features of those communion services where the leader/presider/person running the show communes/is served last (I have in mind Lutheran churches of the Queensland District, and my own dear Infirmary for Sick Dissenters) as appropriate material?

Ah, the good old days. I remember clearly my former pastor taking communion last, and administering it himself, two disappearing practices in Lutheranism. I do believe that it is suggested somewhere in our current resources that it might be a good gesture for the ministers to receive last, but this practice has gone by the wayside.
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Mamacita

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For anyone who (like myself) wondered what the apron-and-gaiters is about, the ever-useful Wikipedia has a paragraph. Anglicans Online has a collection of gaiter-sightings.

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Martin L: When my parish did its first joint Easter Vigil with the ELCA, the Lutheran pastor insisted that the clergy be served last, and our rector was fine with it. But that pastor has since left, and the succeeding ELCA pastors did not follow suit.

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Left to my own devices I would wear Apron and Gaiters for diocesan meetings and formal dinners, but I don't have the money.
PD

[Killing me] I'm not so sure that is a good idea in your conservative region!


I think you are right about that. However, I have threatened the diocesan secretary that if I ever hear the expression "focus group" or any other piece of pretentious grey suit jargon in a diocesan meeting that I will order the full rig and charge it to the diocese. There are times when the church is so like just another bureaucracy run by incompetants that one needs to reintroduce a little bit of Barchester in order to retain what bit of sanity one has left. At least out here in the long grass we are reasonably immune from senior clergy who think they are CEOs, and CFOs, though we do seem to have a few who seem to have been left behind by UFOs.

PD

[ 02. October 2009, 00:28: Message edited by: PD ]

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Mamacita

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Questions on some clerical headgear being transferred from another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by antSJD:
I have posted this in eccles because I thought people might be more likely to know here.

Where can I get a Canterbury Cap from? In particular in the Oxford area if anyone knows?

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
You will, I think, have to go to Wippell's. They have a few in stock in London--mostly size six, for priests with tiny heads. If your head's bigger than this they'll make you one. It takes about a month. They're not cheap.

However they are FABULOUS.

quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
The Oxford ladies' academic cap is in essence a Canterbury cap. At least Mrs M's one looks just like the headgear sported by the only cleric I have ever come across who affected such a thing. It would appear that Messrs. Walters are at the moment giving the things away (while stocks last ...) as here

Mamacita, Ecclesiantics Host

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Amos

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Metapelagius: undoubtedly the two are related. However in appearance there are enough differences that a man attempting to substitute the Oxford women's soft cap for the Canterbury cap would require a fair bit of chutzpah to carry it off.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
There are times when the church is so like just another bureaucracy run by incompetants that one needs to reintroduce a little bit of Barchester in order to retain what bit of sanity one has left. At least out here in the long grass we are reasonably immune from senior clergy who think they are CEOs, and CFOs, though we do seem to have a few who seem to have been left behind by UFOs.

PD

Good to know that our Continuing brothers and sisters are maintaining the tradition of Anglican eccentricity. I suggest regular readings from Trollope and Barbara Pym should be incorporated in the Daily Office.
[Angel]

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Metapelagius
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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Metapelagius: undoubtedly the two are related. However in appearance there are enough differences that a man attempting to substitute the Oxford women's soft cap for the Canterbury cap would require a fair bit of chutzpah to carry it off.

It has passed muster for clerical headgear in amateur dramatics, but there perhaps the standards are not so exacting. It seems odd that any shop should be giving them away - unless the modern Oxford lady academic feels obliged to adopt traditionally male garb, which would render the ladies' caps unsaleable. Sad ....

The "John Knox cap" looks to be another variant on the same basic design. This figures, iirc, among the academicals of some Scottish universities, but is there any evidence of its clerical use?

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y rof a duv. dagnouet.
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Amos

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Is Walter's giving away the ladies' caps unconditionally, or is it giving them away to every woman who buys a gown? In which case it might simply be a wheeze for selling more gowns.

I confess I have never seen a John Knox cap IRL.

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

I confess I have never seen a John Knox cap IRL.

It looks like a modified version of the Canterbury cap, but it has a sort of flap on the bottom that protests the ears and the back of the head. A very necessary addition on a "Baltic" day on the east coast of Scotland. I assume that it was worn by clergy and academics in the 16th century and perhaps into the seventeenth century, but I have not seen enough pictures of Scottish clergy of that era to be able to decide how long it lasted. I would imagine that the first Bishop's War would have done for it if it was still around.

PD

[ 02. October 2009, 15:56: Message edited by: PD ]

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chiltern_hundred
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Amos scripsit:

quote:
I confess I have never seen a John Knox cap IRL.
Me neither. It is part of the full academic dress (ie scarlet) of a Cambridge Doctor of Divinity, and IIRC the Master of my old College would carry his on certain occasions, but I never saw it on his head. I seem to recall that it has a pom-pom on the top, to judge by designs and photos I have seen.
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Hooker's Trick

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

Surely a black chimere would be preferable?
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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:

I confess I have never seen a John Knox cap IRL.

It looks like a modified version of the Canterbury cap, but it has a sort of flap on the bottom that protests the ears and the back of the head.
[Emphasis mine]

PD, are you doing this on purpose? [Smile]

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

Surely a black chimere would be preferable?
Not really. I was taught that red is for best and black for everyday, though in former times you rarely saw the red version in church.

In my case, it is rare for me to use red in church, as on most occasions when it might be appropriate I would wear a cope.


Fr W., it isn't deliberate - honest - but between my eyesight, a dial-up connection, and a short edit window a lot of my silly typos survive.

PD

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Low Treason
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quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
It seems odd that any shop should be giving them away - unless the modern Oxford lady academic feels obliged to adopt traditionally male garb, which would render the ladies' caps unsaleable. Sad ....

Equal opportunities, dear boy, equal opportunities. Now that the ladies can wear the 'square' why would they make do with the reminders that at one time they were very second-class citizens in that fair city?

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daviddrinkell
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Someone asked how recently bishops, archdeacons, etc. wore Apron and Gaiters. FWIW, I remember them being worn occasionally in the Diocese of Lincoln in the late 1970s. +Phipps and the then Archdeaon of Stow wore them at a hunt bollocks, and other similar occasions. PD

The late Jack Shearer, who became Dean of Belfast in about 1986 and was previously Archdeacon of Dromore for many years, claimed to have been the first 'dignatory' in the Church of Ireland not to wear gaiters. He said his wife vetoed the idea because he had spindly legs.

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Qoheleth.

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<I>New random question:</I>

While holidaying recently in Portugal, I snapped these two rather splendid altars (apologies for the poor quality) Igreja de Santa Maria do Castelo and Igreja de Sant'Iago in Tavira.

These, and others not featured, had doors and climbing rungs that clearly led to the higher tiers of the wedding cake. Whereas, English Gothic screens, such as this, simulated here, leading to processional ways and sacristies etc.

I can surmise, but I wondered if Eccolytes have any evidence how these are/were used liturgically? Is that a monstrous monstrance at the very top?

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dj_ordinaire
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Firstly, there may well be monstrances up there for Perpetual Adoration etc - I have seen similar things in Spain.

Secondly, it looks in the first one like there are candles near the top, so maybe just purposes of lighting.

Or, heck, perhaps it's to give access to the cleaners, assuming that something like that might need a little bit of polishing!

My thoughts anyway...

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Doublethink.
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*bump*

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Doublethink.
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quote:
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
This morning at the eucharist I was watching as the celebrant set the table at the offertory. The practice here is to have the chalice and paten set up on the altar with burse and veil. At the offertory the burse is stood up to one side, and the veil folded and place near it.

I found myself wondering why the burse would be stood up.

Any ideas?



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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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The Scrumpmeister
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It's the traditionl way in th old Roman Rite. As for the "why", I imagine it's partly that it looks nice. [Smile] Also, older western altars were often very narrow, and it may simply be that standing it upright rather than lying it flat was a way of conserving surface space.

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Quam Dilecta
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I agree with Michael Astley. The usage described is customary where mass is celebrated ad orientem. The stiffness of the burse allows it to be leaned against the gradine (where provided) or one of the candlesticks, thus (as M.S. has said) conserving space on the mensa.

The softer veil is folded and laid to the right of the corporal on the mensa. At masses with incense, prudence dictates that the veil be folded with the lining, rather than the silk face, exposed, lest the silk be damaged by a stray coal from the thurible.

On a freestanding altar, even if the celebrant uses a burse and veil, it is unlikely that there will be a convenient place to prop up the burse. It might be possible to stand the burse up like a tiny pup tent, but it would serve no purpose to do so, and it would be distracting.

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:

On a freestanding altar, even if the celebrant uses a burse and veil, it is unlikely that there will be a convenient place to prop up the burse. It might be possible to stand the burse up like a tiny pup tent, but it would serve no purpose to do so, and it would be distracting.

You may be right about it being unnecessary and distracting, but I've seen it done by a few of the local RC clergy, always on free-standing altars, of course.

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PD
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I am a staunch traditionalist, but some times the reason for something being done passes me by. At the three Low Masses I attended last week the server flitted the book back to the Epistle side, then transferred the veil to the Gospel side. This is done of necessity at a Solemn Mass, but why the hell do it at a Low Mass. My usual liturgical authorities indicate that the priest takes the veil from the epistle side at Low Mass while the server flits the book. I wonder who they had read that told them that they needed to flit the veil as well. I am thinking RN9 or Baldeschi!

PD

[ 01. November 2009, 04:46: Message edited by: PD ]

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Sarum Sleuth
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Well, the directions certainly didn't come from Dearmer, who makes it quite clear that chalice veils are Rags Of Popery!

SS

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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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One thing that struck me in the recent swine flu threads was that much eucharist ritual was actually food hygiene.

Make host of clearly stated, good quality ingredients. Preferably have it made by people you can trust to not to adulterate it.

Use wine with a highish alcohol content - reduces chance of infectino from the shared cup.

Use noble metals - these have an antiseptic quality.

Only have one person handling the utensils, (and make them wear a clean apron).

Cover everything when you are not actually using it.

Wash you hands before fiddling with the food.

Strikes me that some of the 'rags of popery' had a sensible function originally.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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georgiaboy
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# 11294

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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

Surely a black chimere would be preferable?
Which (red or black) is the more ancient/correct color for the chimere? My impression here in TEC-land is that until recently it was a high/low indicator, snake-belly bps wearing black, those higher up the candle going for red, and those in nose-bleed territory wearing red-purple ones that looked more like a manteletta (sp?). Is that a pond diff?

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You can't retire from a calling.

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.

PD

Surely a black chimere would be preferable?
Which (red or black) is the more ancient/correct color for the chimere? My impression here in TEC-land is that until recently it was a high/low indicator, snake-belly bps wearing black, those higher up the candle going for red, and those in nose-bleed territory wearing red-purple ones that looked more like a manteletta (sp?). Is that a pond diff?
There are some pond differences, but I am not sure what they are precisely.

In the UK most bishops would wear rochet, cope and mitre on special days; red chimere when sat in choir; black in the penitential seasons and (usually) in the House of Lords. I think a good 50% of English bishops will wear Eucharistic vestments when appropriate.

In the USA I see a lot more of the rochet, red chimere and stole abomination in the South
and Southwest. Though most will wear "Euchies" and a mitre when appropriate. I think those of us who use black chimeres are in a distinct minority these days.

My own custom is Euchies, mitre and staff at a Sung Eucharist; Euchies for a said Eucharist; and rochet and black chimere for MP and EP on ordinary days. The scarlet chimere comes out only on feasts and for diocesan convention. As I often have to travel light, I tend not to wear cope and mitre except in my home parish.

PD

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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I think a good 50% of English bishops will wear Eucharistic vestments when appropriate.

If by 'when appropriate' you mean when visiting a church where such vestments are customary, I think almost all English bishops will do so. I don't know if anyone has ever sighted the Bishop of Lewes in a chasuble, but he's the only one I can think of who is likely to refuse.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I think a good 50% of English bishops will wear Eucharistic vestments when appropriate.

If by 'when appropriate' you mean when visiting a church where such vestments are customary, I think almost all English bishops will do so. I don't know if anyone has ever sighted the Bishop of Lewes in a chasuble, but he's the only one I can think of who is likely to refuse.
I am about 12 years out of date on English stuff therefore I was going on what I remember from my teens and twenties.

When Simon Phipps was Bishop of Lincoln he usually wore his (in)famous "Lemon Marangue" cope and mitre over rochet for Choral Evensong, confirmations and at HC. +Tustin and +Ind would both wear Eucharistic vestments for HC if that were the custom of the parish. I think they were both a tiny bit higher than the boss. +Cutts (assisting, formerly of Chile or Argentina) was strictly rochet and chimere. +Bob Hardy was much more chasuble orientated than his predecessor, and I have a vague recollect of him bringing his own when celebrating HC in a parish that was usual surplice and stole.

As a bishop I usually work on the principle of not giving offense to any. I would assume that many other bishops would have the same inclination.

PD

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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My church got caught up in the blue for Advent fad, and still uses it. However, it still uses rose on the third Sunday. As I understand it, rose is supposed to be a lighter shade of purple, and symbolizes the joyous nature of the Sunday that is half way through a season of fasting. If you have blue rather than purple tat on Advent 1, 2, and 4, is there a good explanation for why you should still use rose on Advent 3, beyond “it is what we have always done,” “we have them, so we might as well use them,” or “they are pretty”? After all, there is no purple to lighten.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Comper's Child
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# 10580

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No, Rose, is not just a lighter shade of purple. It's its own color altogether, so it is perfectly appropriate to still use Rose for the 3rd Sunday.
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Olaf
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# 11804

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
...is there a good explanation for why you should still use rose on Advent 3...

I wish we had rose. Without spoiling the mood of the liturgy, it is a visual reminder (almost a counter-cultural act) that, even in the middle of traditionally penitential seasons, we do have every reason to rejoice, be glad, and celebrate.

In this age, when liturgical powers that be constantly try to de-emphasize the gloom and doom of Advent and Lent, one would think that an occasion for a little extra festivity in the middle of these seasons would be welcomed with opened arms. Yet, it is simply downplayed. [Disappointed]

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seasick

...over the edge
# 48

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I'd disagree on the question of rose and blue. Purple for Advent I, II and IV and rose for III is the (old) Roman scheme. (Dark) Blue is the Sarum colour. Mixing and matching just creates a messy hotch-potch: use one scheme and stick with it.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Knopwood
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# 11596

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My understanding was that what we now call "purple" and "blue" are really different shades of the dark colour historically used in Advent, perhaps with some local Uses leaning more heavily to one shade or another. The monks of Christminster certainly use rose on Gaudete and blue for the rest of Advent with quiet consciences.
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Corvo
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# 15220

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quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
No, Rose, is not just a lighter shade of purple. It's its own color altogether, so it is perfectly appropriate to still use Rose for the 3rd Sunday.

'Roseus' is Latin for 'pink'.
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Low Treason
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# 11924

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quote:
Originally posted by Sacred London:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
No, Rose, is not just a lighter shade of purple. It's its own color altogether, so it is perfectly appropriate to still use Rose for the 3rd Sunday.

'Roseus' is Latin for 'pink'.
'Rose' is actually a form of crimson. It comes under the term 'red' but tends towards the bluer end of the spectrum, unlike 'scarlet' which tends towards orange.

What is called 'roman' purple is also a form of red, even more towards blue but still with a preponderance of red. 'Violet', however is a form of blue with a tendency towards red.

Unfortunately the terms red/blue/purple/rose are all very vague. What is blue to one person is purple to another.

Getting back to the colour often used on the third Sunday in Advent, IMHO it is certainly wrong to use Pink. Some roses are pink, but pink is not Rose.

I hope that's that cleared up. As you were. [Big Grin]

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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.

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Sarum Sleuth
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# 162

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Just to confuse matters still further, I can think of a few places that use a dark red for Advent, which was nearly as common in mediaeval England as blue. Westminster Abbey uses Murrey, which was the old custom there. To my eyes it looks like a dark red!

SS

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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Just to confuse matters still further, I can think of a few places that use a dark red for Advent, which was nearly as common in mediaeval England as blue. Westminster Abbey uses Murrey, which was the old custom there. To my eyes it looks like a dark red!

SS

That fits in with the sort of dark - linen - festal - red/green sequence that seems to underlie a lot of mediaeval colour sequences in England. So what we have is something like:

Advent and the 'Gesimas (perhaps Lent in poor laces) - Dark; i.e. violet, purple, or murry

Christmas, Epiphany, Eastertide, Pentecost - festal white or festal red

Rest of the year - ordinary red or perhaps green.

The one thing that does not emerge until quite late in the Middles Ages is the notion of a ferial colour. The older books all have a phrase like "red or at the will of the sacrist" for those odd occasions when the Ferial Mass and Office would be celebrated.

PD

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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505

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I have done a bit of research into the liturgical colour changes through the centuries, and find it quite fascinating. I would love to read some more... any suggestions for books on sacristy, vestments and symbology?

Somewhere on this ship, many months ago, a knowledgeable shipmate posted that one author of the early twentieth century had written what he considered a definitive tome on the subject; but alas I cannot find the reference now. I'm sure it was mentioned either here or in All Saints. [Help]

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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