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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Tatler
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Somewhere on this ship, many months ago, a knowledgeable shipmate posted that one author of the early twentieth century had written what he considered a definitive tome on the subject; but alas I cannot find the reference now. I'm sure it was mentioned either here or in All Saints. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
You surely must be thinking of the The Parson's Handbook by the patron saint of Ecclesiantics the Blessed Percy (Dearmer).
(PS tried twice to edit the URL link without success. )
[Link repair. Mamacita, Host]
[ 03. December 2009, 20:23: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
(PS tried twice to edit the URL link without success. )
In my experience, links to Wiki always have to be run through tinyurl.com because they contain all kinds of wonky characters that make our UBB system unhappy.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Sarum Sleuth
Shipmate
# 162
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Posted
The standard book on English colours is William St John Hope and Cuthbert Atchley: English Liturgical Colours, SPCK, 1918. It's pretty hard to come by these days.
Dearmer was a bit dodgy on colours, as he was making concessions to the usual four colour sequence, which had become embedded by the time of the publication of the Parson's Handbook. However, the Ideal English Sequence in the 1906 edition is still in use at SMVPH and is much to be preferred to the dictates of another communion.
SS
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The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue
Posts: 848 | From: England, 1549 | Registered: May 2001
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the Ænglican
Shipmate
# 12496
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
The standard book on English colours is William St John Hope and Cuthbert Atchley: English Liturgical Colours, SPCK, 1918. It's pretty hard to come by these days.
SS
Thanks for this! I try to stay up on these topics but have never heard of this text before. Would it be related (or identical) to this item from the Internet Archive?:
Introduction to English Liturgical Colours
ETA: Looks like it's a cut-down version...
[ 04. December 2009, 18:23: Message edited by: the Ænglican ]
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The subject of religious ceremonial is one which has a special faculty for stirring strong feeling. --W. H. Frere
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
How about books on Christian symbology? Any ideas?
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
I'm sorry. . . I couldn't resist.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
*bump*
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
Is symbology actually a real word?
[ 16. January 2010, 00:16: Message edited by: +Chad ]
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I am pleased this thread came up again.
Think said I had to discuss here the topic of clergy headwear. I know about a biretta. But what does the Anglo Catholic or RC Church priest wear outside of church. I ask because we are hoing to buy one as a gift. So pictures and suppliers would be VERY gratefully welcomed. Someoen mentioned to me a name like Saturno...that was a wehile ago but I dont remeber it in detail. That could be one of the possibilities, perhaps.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I put the words "saturno" and "clergy" into google images and got this.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I put the words "saturno" and "clergy" into google images and got this.
Thank you Think, that was helpful. What I do not know is what is nowadays usual headwear for Anglo catholic or RC Clergy out fo doors. Are you saying the Saurno is? It would more appear to be papal wear, from the link you suggest.
(Also as i mentioned we're interested in a reliable supplier.This would be about a recomendation, and cant be had just by Googling)
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I put the words "saturno" and "clergy" into google images and got this.
Thank you Think, that was helpful. What I do not know is what is nowadays usual headwear for Anglo catholic or RC Clergy out fo doors. Are you saying the Saurno is? It would more appear to be papal wear, from the link you suggest.
(Also as i mentioned we're interested in a reliable supplier.This would be about a recomendation, and cant be had just by Googling)
Well, let's see. You are an Anglo-catholic. One of the features of Anglo-catholics is that they are often familiar with Anglo-catholic priests. So... have YOU ever seen a priest in a saturno?
If not, why might this be?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I put the words "saturno" and "clergy" into google images and got this.
Thank you Think, that was helpful. What I do not know is what is nowadays usual headwear for Anglo catholic or RC Clergy out fo doors. Are you saying the Saurno is? It would more appear to be papal wear, from the link you suggest.
(Also as i mentioned we're interested in a reliable supplier.This would be about a recomendation, and cant be had just by Googling)
Well, let's see. You are an Anglo-catholic. One of the features of Anglo-catholics is that they are often familiar with Anglo-catholic priests. So... have YOU ever seen a priest in a saturno?
If not, why might this be?
Good point. But the trouble is I am not sure of the names of the hats I have seen Anglo Catholic priests in! So thats why I ask and why I wonder where they can be got from.
I do know what a Biretta is. But I'm talking about the outdoor hats, like the different ones you see priests at Walsingham wearing.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If you actually described what it was you had seen them wearing we'd have more chance of working out what it was.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
Very few men wear hats nowadays, but some still do because they are follically challenged or believe they are not properly dressed without one (at least when wearing an overcoat).
With a suit a clergyman might wear a black trilby or, for more formal occasions, a homburg, but with a cassock (especially when worn with a cloak or greca or ferriola) the most appropriate hat is the saturno.
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
If you actually described what it was you had seen them wearing we'd have more chance of working out what it was.
Good point, Think, and thanks for making it, but Oh dear, thats difficult to do.
They vary, they are black, some have brims, some are round, some have what seem to be ear flaps and are soft in appearance. Perhaps if someone had a clerical hat picture web page it would help!
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I put the words "clerical" and "hats" into google images and got this link.
(When I just put into google I got this link, which was less helpful.)
[ 16. January 2010, 10:28: Message edited by: Think² ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Well done, Think! Thats a interesting collection of old hats from new Zealand.
But they dont fit for modern days clergy - at least I cant really see there ones I've spotted and am asking for help about. The one I described isnt there for example, and I've not seen vicars in top hats!
I have seen some vicars in berets.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Well your description fits one of these Eddy, is that what you meant ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Which just goes to prove how I cant describe hats - but that looks a sexy little number for the right priest ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
NO! Soft fabric, cant think better how to describe, flat topped if I remember.
Has anyone seen an AC priest in a Saturino? Can they be got in the UK?
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Or there is this or this ?
Perhaps you have simply seen a priest in a black hat, rather than a specifically clerical hat ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I am but a lowly Methodist minister, but when I go out I wear my black woolly hat. My Catholic and Anglocatholic colleagues seem to do the same.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Eddy, you might be interested in reading and posting on this website.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clavus:
...with a cassock (especially when worn with a cloak...) the most appropriate hat is the saturno.
If one is of a continental inclination. If not, perhaps one of these.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Oh +Chad thats the one I was trying to describe. I see it seems to be called a canterbury cap. I saw an older priest wearing one at Walsingham.
Now Think likes Googling so I had a go to with Canterbury Cap and
this pic came up.
It looks a modern pic so some priests / vicars are wearing them but where do you buy them I ask?
I was PM'd by a kind guy who sent this link to a fantastic collection of priests hats. Trouble is its all in German which i dont understand so I dont know who can wear what and who does wear what.
Thanks too to Think for that link to that blog. Thats the Saturino then. Again though could I buy one of those anywhere - is there a London tailor that sells them?
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
A few of us still wear Canterbury Caps. I got mine from Vanheems about 15 years ago. It seems to come out mainly at funerals, and on other occasions when I have to hang around outside in a cassock or choir habit.
Otherwise my preferred outdoor headgear is a flat cap (winter) or a straw cowboy hat (summer).
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Our curate a Canterbury cap - he carries it with him at Evensong although I have to say I've never seen him in it...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Is this what the well dressed Anglo catholic priest wears outdoors on his head - the canterbury Cap - seems a bit of an Anglican thing when u read about it, so maybe not preferred by ACs - any opinions on this.
Wikipedia sez its Anglican only, and the pics seem to be of Protestant Reformers in it.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Our curate a Canterbury cap - he carries it with him at Evensong although I have to say I've never seen him in it...
I could not help reading - Our curate, a Canterbury cap... !
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I googled buy canterbury cap clerical, and I found this; Mary Collings - selling with clergy cloaks.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
The Canterbury Cap works for Roly Bain.
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Is this what the well dressed Anglo catholic priest wears outdoors on his head - the canterbury Cap - seems a bit of an Anglican thing when u read about it, so maybe not preferred by ACs - any opinions on this.
Wikipedia sez its Anglican only, and the pics seem to be of Protestant Reformers in it.
Eddy,
It used to be a rough and ready way of distinguishing Prayer Book Catholics from Anglo-Papalists. The former preferred Canterbury Caps, the latter birettas and soup plate hats.
The Square Cap, as the Canterbury Cap was called in the 16th century, was worn by such Protestant luminaries as Thomas Card. Wolsey, St. John Fisher, and Richard Fox. It - along with the cassock, gown, surplice, tippet, and cope - was among the vestments that survived the Reformation. It gradually evolved into the college cap ("mortar board") during the 17th and early 18th centuries. One or two of the MOTR to Low Church clergy I knew growing up still used the college cap when wearing choir habit.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
PD wrote:
quote:
the latter birettas and soup plate hats.
Are the soup plate hats the saturnos weve been talking about?
Is it possible for anyone to point to a web pic of A/C clergy wearing them?
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Eddy, in addition to using Google, you should also learn to use the Ship's search function. Its functionality isn't terrific, but it's workable. By typing "canterbury cap" into "search words" and directing it to search Oblivion, it came up with at least 6 threads, including this most recent one. The threads I checked seemed to discuss several types of clerical headgear and included links to pictures and suggested suppliers. Eccles is a specialized board and some topics seem to pop up on a semi-regular basis, so using the internal search engine to plumb the riches of Oblivion will often be worth the effort. In addition, if you go back to page 2 on this thread, around 2 October, you'll find a discussion of the headgear topic as well.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Leo mentioned on another thread the death of Graham Leonard and there was a pointer to obituaries.
One says:
quote:
His individuality showed in his clothes: he had a strong sense of theatre. As a curate, he startled the Cambridge parishioners of St Andrew's, Chesterton, by bicycling in a cassock and a biretta, though eventually the bicycle chain chewed up the cassock. As diocesan education secretary, he raised eyebrows at the "ministry" (as it then was) in Curzon Street, central London, by appearing in a black, Spanish-style, broad-brimmed priest's hat
I thought a biretta wasn't an outdoor head dress, but this bishop shows otherwise.
I guess the Spanish style broad brimmed hat is the Saturno, mentioned elsewhere as Italian.
Strange how these things turn up in places when one is talking about them elsewhere.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Eddy, in my yoof the usual practice among Spikes was to wear cassock and biretta around the church and parsonage and when making calls in the immediate vicinity of the church. If you were going more than a few minutes walk from the church you dropped the biretta in favour of a saturno, or more usually some sort of non-descript black hat that would have looked more at home with a donkey jacket.
Around my way the MOTR types, even some of the more churchy Evangelicals would generally wear their cassocks around the church on Sundays and when walking to and from the parsonage before and after service. That said, you were unlikely to see them in the Post Office buying a book of stamps in a cassock. For the most part clerical collars, and dark coloured suits or fannels and a battered tweed jacket were favoured for every day use.
I seem to recall that twenty-five years ago, the favoured type of cassock around my neck of the woods was the Whippell's double breasted variety in wool. I think this was because the Whippell's representative hit the theological about three months before ordination day. This particular garment was just about bombproof and would usually last the lucky purchaser the first twenty-five years of his ministry! In its last few years of use it would usually be distinguished by the gap between the button and its hole at waist level and would held shut by a belt, or a length of black curtain cord! ISTM that a new cassock would be purchased when the such accomodations for the "bay window" were no longer successful, and the Easter Offering had been particularly generous. When it came to head ear outside I have seen everything from Canterbury Caps to army surplus arctic issue hats complete with ear flaps worn with a cassock. Low temeratures combined with the way the wind whips across open spaces of Lincolnshire do not tend to make one a clerical fashion plate!
PD
[ 17. January 2010, 23:22: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Delightful imagery in your post, PD. Thanks.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
What exactly is the difference between an alb and a cass-alb? Is it that a cass-alb is made of lighter material and fastened down the centre while an alb is of heavier fabric and fastened differently? Enquiring minds wish to know!
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Low Treason
Shipmate
# 11924
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
What exactly is the difference between an alb and a cass-alb? Is it that a cass-alb is made of lighter material and fastened down the centre while an alb is of heavier fabric and fastened differently? Enquiring minds wish to know!
An alb is a traditional garment which is worn over a cassock and is made of light white cloth, usually linen or cotton. It is tied round the waist (or for some of us, where the waist would be if it still existed) with a rope-type girdle. The alb also requires an amice to be worn around the neck.
A cassock-alb (cass-alb) is a hybrid garment which (allegedly) combines the cassock and alb together. It is made of heavy material and comes in a wide variety of styles. It is often preferred to the traditional alb as it conflates the cassock, amice, alb and girdle into one garment and is often made of man-made fibres which do not crease etc.
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Ah, so that explains the disdain with which purists view the cassock alb.
Is it true that a traditional black cassock symbolically has exactly a certain number of buttons on it? If so, what is it supposed to represent?
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I had heard, though I don't know if it is true, that on an anglican cassock there are 39 buttons to representation the 39 articles.
For your reference:
But why and when, would you use an alb instead of a surplice or a cotta ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
From PentEcclesiastic
quote:
Hello everyone. Now that I'm beginning to wear clericals more often, a friend of mine (who is also a bishop) and myself went to my favorite religious supplies store (Roman Catholic). He introduced me to the rabat. He said they were more formal and to be worn with the white neckband shirt. Which I understand. What I don't understand is that he said the vest front is more formal than the shirt front. I then stopped paying attention because of all the gold in there and the smell of beeswax was making me a little nauseous.
Here's the question: What's the difference between a vest front and a plain shirt front rabat? What's the difference between one with buttons and one that's "stock"?
Basically, I just need a general breakdown on Rabat culture. New Advent didn't have anything to break it down for me.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
But why and when, would you use an alb instead of a surplice or a cotta ?
In my opinion (and others may disagree), a chasuble looks really funny over a surplice or cotta. That may just be because I haven't seen surplice + chasuble very often, but it looks wrong.
However, for the office I normally wear cassock & surplice.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the Ænglican:
quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
The standard book on English colours is William St John Hope and Cuthbert Atchley: English Liturgical Colours, SPCK, 1918. It's pretty hard to come by these days.
SS
Thanks for this! I try to stay up on these topics but have never heard of this text before. Would it be related (or identical) to this item from the Internet Archive?:
Introduction to English Liturgical Colours
ETA: Looks like it's a cut-down version...
The {i]Introduction[/i] is, as you say, a summarised version of the larger work, designed more for the casual enquirer, whereas English Liturgical Colours proper is very much a resource for the scholar. The latter was really quite expensive at one time, and the former only a little less so, but prices have dropped somewhat in the last two years, partly influenced by the availability of (relatively) cheap reprint editions. If I may be allowed a small plug, I used to have a copy of ELC and there is a short review of it on the website in my signature.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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magnum mysterium
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?
Yes, people do, but it's becoming less common I must say. They're a really practical item - they save you having to wash the whole garment just to get the neck part clean. I'm sure you can still get them from Church Stores.
Posts: 3095 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Rosa Gallica officinalis
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?
I've never seen anyone wear a traditional alb without an amice. Watts may no longer sell them because they are so easy to make (sew tapes onto two corners of a large rectangle of white fabric) that many people can do so in about 30 minutes, for a small fraction of the retail price.
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Come for tea, come for tea, my people.
Posts: 874 | From: The Hemlock Hideout | Registered: Jan 2003
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