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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Tatler
PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
I had heard, though I don't know if it is true, that on an anglican cassock there are 39 buttons to representation the 39 articles.

For your reference:

But why and when, would you use an alb instead of a surplice or a cotta ?

The single breasted 39-button cassock is an invention of the Victorian ritualists. They allege that the excessive number of buttons stand for the 39 Articles which they do not seem to accept. IMHO, the authentic style of "anglican" cassock is double breasted - sometimes referred to as being "Sarum cassock" - which does at least have the merit of having been in use continuously in England since before the Reformation.

The surplice is used for morning and evening prayer over the cassock. It is usually accompanied by tippet and hood for clergy. It is sometimes used for Baptism and Marriage with cassock and stole when these do not take place in the context of the Eucharist. Of course, some MOTR to Low clergy wear cassock and surplice for Communion too. A surplice should be at least knee length, better still reach mid-calf on the wearer, or, best of all, come to within about 6" of the ground. It originally developed as a substitute for the alb. It is easier to put on and off.

The cotta is an abbreviated surplice, and occasionally used as a surplice substitute in spikey churches. Roman in origin; though at one time they used a "full and comely surplice" too. Another variation on the alb/surplice theme is the Bishop's Rochet.

The alb, customarily worn with an amice to keep the neck-hole clean, is primarily worn under Eucharistic vestments in the celebration of the Eucharist.

PD

[ 21. January 2010, 14:13: Message edited by: PD ]

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?

When I wear Eucharistc vestments, I still use an amice. Although it takes longer to put on and off and needs a little bit of care to look right, I prefer the tradition alb and amice to the cassock-alb. IMO, when done right it looks much better.

PD

[ 21. January 2010, 14:18: Message edited by: PD ]

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Comper's Child
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?

When I wear Eucharistc vestments, I still use an amice. Although it takes longer to put on and off and needs a little bit of care to look right, I prefer the tradition alb and amice to the cassock-alb. IMO, when done right it looks much better.

PD

Yes, they look much better and also prevent soiling the neck of the alb and the stole as well. Watts certainly makes them, though they had gone out of favor in some circles. There is a revival of the use in my experience.
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Spike

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# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:

The surplice is used for morning and evening prayer over the cassock. It is usually accompanied by tippet and hood for clergy. It is sometimes used for Baptism and Marriage with cassock and stole when these do not take place in the context of the Eucharist.

Priests and Deacons often wear cassock, surplice and stole at their ordination.

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Banner Lady
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# 10505

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In one of my books on historical robes, I notice that the amice has an orphrey on it, to make an embroidered stand up collar, and it states that the traditional amice was also able to be worn as a hood.

I'm assuming that as these are very old diagrams, this is not the case any more. Are embellished amices still worn, and by whom and when?

One of the links for vestments mentions a hooded amice for sale, but with no picture. I am very curious to know what that looks like, and when you would wear it.

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Sarum Sleuth
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# 162

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Apparelled amices are used at St Mary's, Primrose Hill as might be expected. Also at Westminster Abbey, Eexter Cathedral, York Minster and a number of other major English churches.

SS

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Comper's Child
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I know a number of places even in the States where apparelled amices are worn.
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3rdFooter
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The amice as worn by the mediaevals was a kind of hood thing that we now only wear in the folded down position.

There is a method of putting them on that starts by putting it over your head like a hood, tie under the chin and then fold down. This is probably the last vestige of its original origins.

3F

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Spike

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# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Gallica officinalis:
quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
Thanks! Does anyone still wear an amice these days? I notice they are not one of the items made by Watts. Does that mean they are such an optional thing that they are going the way of the dinosaur?

I've never seen anyone wear a traditional alb without an amice. Watts may no longer sell them because they are so easy to make (sew tapes onto two corners of a large rectangle of white fabric) that many people can do so in about 30 minutes, for a small fraction of the retail price.
I know of one occasion where amices were hastily improvised using pillowcases. Sarum Sleuth will know what I'm talking about!
[Biased]

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Banner Lady
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Thank you, that is really helpful information. I assumed bishops could wear apparelled amices, and maybe those officiating at a solemn high mass, but I was unsure if it would be the norm for those used to a higher church setting than I. I suppose though, if you do have such wonderful things in your vestry, you should be using them.

The diagrams I have also mention maniples. Are these still worn too? I have a feeling I have seen these worn in a Catholic Mass, but not sure if I've ever seen them worn in an Anglican church.

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:


The diagrams I have also mention maniples. Are these still worn too? I have a feeling I have seen these worn in a Catholic Mass, but not sure if I've ever seen them worn in an Anglican church.

I'm all for the wearing of maniples! Sadly, though, the church I serve only has a few sets that include the maniple; our main red, white, violet & green sets don't include one. We have a Marian white set (blue trim) and what I refer to as the "Christ the King" white set (design includes a crowned-cross motif) which do, but that's about it. So most of the time, I don't wear one (no rose vestments either, and our black set is looking really ratty & sad).

We're continuing Anglican, if that contextualizes it at all. Of course, there are those on the Ship who will say that's only "Anglican-style"...

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sonata3
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# 13653

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In the '80s and early '90s, the TEC parish I was a member of always used maniples. I visited there a few weeks ago, and that is no longer the practice.
Concerning more exotic examples of tat...did Anglo-Catholics in England ever embrace the cappa magna (I cannot imagine it in the US)?

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Banner Lady
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O I think I need a spreadsheet to understand who should be wearing what! (And as yet I have no idea what is the norm for the orthodoxen to wear in all their layers). I love the variety of headgear being discussed, but I have one more question about maniples - do or did they ever have a purpose other than being an elegant addition to a vestment set?

And to answer an earlier query: yes, symbology is definitely a word. It means the study of symbols, and also expression via symbolism. I may be a rank layman, but even I can see that there are many layers of meaning within church apparel that are teetering on the brink of being lost. I rather like symbology, hence all my questions. And thank you in advance for the answers!

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Clavus
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# 9427

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Sonata3 asked:
quote:
did Anglo-Catholics in England ever embrace the cappa magna (I cannot imagine it in the US)?
Au contraire - I have never seen one in England, but it is embraced in Philadelphia!
Easter V 2009 at St Clement's Philadelphia

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Rosa Gallica officinalis
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# 3886

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
... but I have one more question about maniples - do or did they ever have a purpose other than being an elegant addition to a vestment set?

The maniple is derived from the towel, in the story of Jesus washing the disciples feet at the last supper, a reminder of the priest's servanthood.

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leo
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# 1458

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A priest fried of mine who was originally trained as a Roman Catholic complained that some of his fellow seminarians in the 1980s glorified the maniple and attached unprecedented meanings to it whereas it was originally used like a sweat rag or napkin for the priest during the Mass, which was much longer than it is today. The liturgical theology of the maniple was minimal and that is way it was discarded after Vatican II.

That it is a sign of servanthood is a fairly recent fantasy. Silk reminders of foot washing, embroidered with crowns seem a bit over the top.

Another view is that the maniple originated as a kind of handkerchief for persons of rank. As Romans didn't have pockets, they wore them on their sleeves. (OK – I am happy with the idea that Jesus blew his nose just like he went to the toilet.) Before it entered the liturgy it had lost its utilitarian function and become decoratively embroidered as a status symbol marking off the wearer as an aristocrat.

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The Scrumpmeister
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# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
And as yet I have no idea what is the norm for the orthodoxen to wear in all their layers

Western Rite Orthodox clergy vestments are essentially what you will know as western vestments. As for the majority, which are Byzantine Rite, there's actually very little difference with western traditions as far as deacons and priests go. After all, these things all have the same origins but merely developed differently in different parts of the world and at different times.

Priests

For the Eucharist, an Orthodox priest will wear his cassock (which is exactly what you think it is) and stikhar (what you know as an alb). Around his neck will be the epitrachil (stole) hanging down in front, and secured by the zone (cincture), which goes around his waist. Over this he will wear the phelon (chasuble). Instead of wearing the maniple on the left wrist, he wears cuffs on both wrists. And that's it. Over the top, he will wear his pectoral Cross (usually worn directly over the cassock when out and about unvested). So you can see how there's barely any difference from what you are accustomed to.

In addition, priests may be awarded certain distinguishing accoutrements for particular faithfulness or service to the Church. Among them are the gold-coloured pectoral Cross, the palitza (thigh shield), the nabedrennik (a different type of thigh shield), and various forms of headwear such as the kamilavka and the mitre. In addition, hieromonks, (priests who have been tonsured to the monastic state), traditionally wear a veil over the kamilavka. While this is still followed in some places, I have more commonly seen the more recent development of the kamilavka and veil combined to form the klobuk (which resembles the second rather than the first picture in that article).

Deacons

Orthodox deacons' vestments will also be generally familiar to you, Banner Lady, and are really quite straightforward. Worn over the cassock, they are the stikhar (which, unlike the priest's stikhar, is the equivalent of the tunicle/dalmatic, and not the alb), the orarion (stole), and the cuffs. That's it.

The orarion is worn over the left shoulder, as in the case of western deacons. However, unlike in the western tradition, it is worn over rather than under the dalmatic/stikhar. Also, it is not brought across to the right hip but simply hangs straight down in the front and back, fastening on the shoulder with a button. This is, I understand, the most ancient form of diaconal stole, and is what is found in ancient icons and mosaics.

Protodeacons and archdeacons (yes, our archdeacons are actually deacons and not priests [Smile] ) wear what is called the double-orarion, which may also be granted as an honour to other deacons for particular service to the Church. This is, essentially, an orarion of double length. One end hangs from the left shoulder straight down the back. The other end is brought across the front, wrapped under the right arm and brought back up the back, where it again hangs at the left shoulder straight down the front. See here.

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Tat Primer

Tatology for the advanced student

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Banner Lady
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Wow. You guys are better than our local theology library!

One of the frustrating things for me, is that because I have made a few vestments, people assume I know everything about them. I don't (hence the crash course in filling in some of the background). Many ordinands these days have no church bacground, and many come from different denominations, so they ask me a lot of questions. Thanks. (And no doubt I'll think of a few more soon!)

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Hebdom
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# 14685

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BL, here is a link you will enjoy

DIY tat

Look for Lucy Mackrille and the PDFs from her book. You may know of it. Somewhere in that there are directions for making an amice, should you be so inclined.

The illustrations are 1920s black and white. I tried drafting an alb pattern from her instructions, gave up, they were impossible, the dimensions were illogical. In the end I bought one online, as per Foaming Draught's instructions. Bought a cass-alb, because if you're not wearing a chasuble, dalmatic or tunicle over the top, it looks a lot better on those of us who are traditionally built than an alb does.

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Tat Primer

Tatology for the advanced student

In the interests of completeness one should add Percy Dearmer "The Ornaments of the Ministers" which covers the Anglican tradition. I would link to it myself only boardcode and I do not get along.

Cheers,
PD

...who is going to be digging out again tomorrow!

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Feel free to use the UBB thread in styx to practice.

Whilst writing your post, you press the url button and put in the url then press return and put in a description of the link.



Eccles Host

[ 23. January 2010, 07:30: Message edited by: Think² ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Meanwhile Lambeth says this, and Dearmer said that.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Think²:
Feel free to use the UBB thread in styx to practice.

Whilst writing your post, you press the url button and put in the url then press return and put in a description of the link.



Eccles Host

Unfortunately my main way of accessing e-mail has compatibility issues with UBB, so that isn't really a possibility unless I have time to mess around with SoF at the office. At the moment getting to the office is a problem. I just off to dig out yet again!

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Interesting period tat in the film Cromwell, on BBC 2 at the moment. Especially as the film maker is clearly trying to distinguish the puritan, protestant and roman catholic dress.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Banner Lady
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# 10505

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What is the correct plural for 'stole'? Is it 'stoles' or is it something more ancient, like 'stolae' or.... [Help]

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seasick

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# 48

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It's stoles in English. (The Latin is stola/stolae).

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Oblatus
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# 6278

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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
It's stoles in English. (The Latin is stola/stolae).

I gather this varies according to case and maybe some other factors? For example, the All Saints' Day antiphon O quam gloriosum describes the saints as ...amicti stolis albis... ("clothed in white robes").

Oblatus non magister latinum (or whatever) [Hot and Hormonal]

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The Scrumpmeister
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# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
What is the correct plural for 'stole'? Is it 'stoles' or is it something more ancient, like 'stolae' or.... [Help]

Plain old "stoles". Whatever its origins, it has become anglicised and takes a usual English plural.

However, your question reminds me of one of my own. Words for eastern stuff has come into Engish usage in different ways. Some items have western equivalents and are simply called by their western names (censers, fans, and so forth). For other things, either the Greek or Russian words have become anglicised to varying degrees with use, often with no consistency whatsoever. The Greek "orarion" seems to be more commonly used for a deacon's stole, but retains the Greek plural "oraria". Yet the Russian word orar is quite common among English speakers. How would one pluralise it? I also wonder the same thing about iconostas (as, despite google's search results, it is more common in my personal experience than iconostasis, and it is less difficult to say if, like me, you have a lisp).

Any help would be welcomed.

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seasick

...over the edge
# 48

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Indeed it does - I just gave the nominative. If you are so inclined the full paradigm is available. [Smile]

[Cross post with Michael Astley]

[ 25. January 2010, 20:20: Message edited by: seasick ]

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Banner Lady
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# 10505

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There seems to be an enormous number of different and interestingly named garments which a bishop may wear. I realize this is because he or she must take part in a large variety of services and ceremonials. But in your part of the world, what would your bishop wear during a solemn/high/formal celebration of mass and what would be worn during a choir or prayer service?

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The Scrumpmeister
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# 5638

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
There seems to be an enormous number of different and interestingly named garments which a bishop may wear. I realize this is because he or she must take part in a large variety of services and ceremonials. But in your part of the world, what would your bishop wear during a solemn/high/formal celebration of mass and what would be worn during a choir or prayer service?

Woohoo! More fun to have!

Actually, it's quite simple for our hierarchs. For non-Eucharistic services, over the cassock, a bishop wears the cuffs on their wrists and the epitrachil around his neck. Over the epitrachil wears the small omophor, (a late development, introduced for use in non-Eucharistic services). Then, over the top, he'll wear his pectoral cross/icon(s). Depending on the service or the time of the service, he may also wear his monastic mantle, in which case the small omophor is worn over the top. He wears the klobuk on his head.

At the Divine Liturgy, the bishop is vested in a white stikhar, (alb), held in place with the zone (cincture), and cuffs on his wrists. Then he dons the palitza. Over this is worn the sakkos, which is essentially the same as the western dalmatic, although it has a roundabout history of having originally been a diaconal vestment, which was adopted as an imperial garment, and found its way back into the Church by the emperor granting it to certain bishops. Today, all Orthodox bishops wear it. Over this, the bishop wears his pectoral cross/icon(s) and the great omophor. On his head he wears his mitre.

In the western rites, it is the mitre that is seen as the predominant sign of the bishop's temporal authority in earth, so he removes it during the Gospel when the words of Christ are being proclaimed, and at other times. In the Byzantine rite, it is the omophor that is seen as the predominant sign of the bishop's authority. Orthodox clergy and parishes under a bishop's authority are said to be "under his omophor", so before the Gospel, the omophor is removed and paraded before the people to show that it has been removed. It is the same vestment as the western pallium, although it has developed in the east so that it is no longer made of wool but instead usually matches the other vestments, (although more recently, manufacturers have begun to once again make them in white with red crosses embroidered) and it has developed in the west so that its shape is altered and its use is restricted only to certain bishops to whom the pope has granted it.

Oh, and bishops usually stand on an orletz.

[Link fix. Whew! Only one! Mamacita, Host]

[ 30. January 2010, 04:07: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

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PD
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Yes, the range of bishop's vestments can be a bit bewildering. Most Anglican bishops simplify things a bit. I find when I am travelling I take along either quire habit, or cassock, rochet, cope and mitre and pretty much everything else goes by the wayside. On a humorous note, getting a pastoral staff through airport security these days can be very interesting if you have inadvertantly shoved it in your hand luggage. It usually ends up getting checked, which makes me glad mine isn't worth stealing.

+PD

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Doublethink.
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*bump da bump*

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Oreophagite
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Badges and Tippets

I've seen priests wearing no badges on their tippets, and others who look like Boy Scouts with all the badges sewn on.

What's correct?

And, if one is going to wear badges, are there rules for where they should be placed? Do certain ones go in certain places?

Are they at chest level (I've seen that), or at the tip of the tippet?

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Mamacita

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Can I ask for an explanation of the badges, as this is something I'm not familiar with?

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+Chad

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Badges are most commonly, 'though not exclusively, associated with Chaplaincy of some sort or Canonries.

British Forces Chaplains wear badges near the base of the tippet on both sides.

Army, Navy, Air Force.

I've seen come Canons tippets arranged thus, 'though Manchester has one badge at chest level on the right hand side. The badge is the Cathedral Arms seen here on the header to the website.

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
There seems to be an enormous number of different and interestingly named garments which a bishop may wear. I realize this is because he or she must take part in a large variety of services and ceremonials. But in your part of the world, what would your bishop wear during a solemn/high/formal celebration of mass and what would be worn during a choir or prayer service?

In quire on ordinary days:

Cassock
Rochet
Chimere
Tippet

On feasts:

Cassock
Rochet
Cope
Mitre
Crozier

Low Mass:
(Cassock)
Amice
Alb
Girdle
Stole
Chasuble
(Skullcap)
(Biretta)

High Mass:
As for Low Mass but ith mitre and crosier.

Solemn Mass, and Ordinations

(Cassock)
Amice
Alb
Girdle
Stole
Pontifical Dalmatic
Chasuble
Mitre
Crosier

If the set of Mass vestments has a maniple I will use it.

+PD

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pete173
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In places where they don't wear robes:

Doc Martens
Purple shirt, collar and cross
Leather waistcoat
Black denim trosers

In places where they baptise by full submersion:

Tee shirt
Shorts

[Big Grin]

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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quote:
Originally posted by +Chad:
Badges are most commonly, 'though not exclusively, associated with Chaplaincy of some sort or Canonries.

British Forces Chaplains wear badges near the base of the tippet on both sides.

Army, Navy, Air Force.

I've seen come Canons tippets arranged thus, 'though Manchester has one badge at chest level on the right hand side. The badge is the Cathedral Arms seen here on the header to the website.

Canadian Forces chaplains wear the following badges on their tippets, seen here.

As a classic "Purple Trade" the Chaplains Branch is unified top to bottom.

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Oreophagite
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In addition to the chaplaincy badges, I've also seen badges, seals and shields for seminaries, dioceses, and parishes - as well as various church organizations.

Surely there are guidelines for how these are to be applied to the tippet.

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dj_ordinaire
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It's Anglicanism - why should you think that? The only rules which there actually are, are that it shouldn't be adorned with anything (which is widely ignored) and the only DD's are entitled to silk. Beyond that... oh, who knows?

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Hare today
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Our Canons wear the Cathedral Arms (see +Chad's avatar) near the base of the tippet on each side.

Incidentaly, the Vergers wear the same Cathedral badge on one sleeve of their gown and the Guild of Vergers badge on the other.

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
It's Anglicanism - why should you think that? The only rules which there actually are, are that it shouldn't be adorned with anything (which is widely ignored) and the only DD's are entitled to silk. Beyond that... oh, who knows?

Tippet badges seem a little more prevailent in the USA than they are at home. The usual arrangement seems to be denominational or diocesan arms a short distance up from the bottom on the left side, and one's seminary's arms on the right. I was one of the very few in my old diocese in that did not display any tippet badges. That is mainly because I believe that a tippet should not be used for displaying medal ribbons, diocesan seals, or anything else of that ilk.

PD

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Episcoterian
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May I hold the tippet discussion just for a second?


What kind of headwear should one sport when donning a Geneva robe (the kind sold by Murphy's, not the German/European Talar one worn by all Reformers)? Or do they belong solely to the "no hats in church whatsoever" realm?

And what's the general opinion on wearing stoles over Geneva robes? (taking into account that Presbyterians won't be caught dead wearing chasubles and even in some places an alb+stole combo might be one's ticket to court...)

BTW, any ideas on how, where and when Presbies began wearing stoles over their robes? Seems to be a post-1950s thing, judging from the pics from the LIFE mag website...


And, on tippets again, I remember a pic of an Australian Presby guy wearing one over his robe with his Alma Mater's crest on it... How, when and why should a Presby wear a tippet instead of a stole?

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dj_ordinaire
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A stole over a Geneva robe? Erm... gosh, if it's the local custom - some sort of combination of teaching role and priestly role?

But... it would look a little funny to my eyes and in terms of historical precedent be a bit barmy. So I'd not be recommending it myself! [Ultra confused]

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Low Treason
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quote:
Originally posted by Episcoterian:
May I hold the tippet discussion just for a second?


What kind of headwear should one sport when donning a Geneva robe (the kind sold by Murphy's, not the German/European Talar one worn by all Reformers)? Or do they belong solely to the "no hats in church whatsoever" realm?

And what's the general opinion on wearing stoles over Geneva robes? (taking into account that Presbyterians won't be caught dead wearing chasubles and even in some places an alb+stole combo might be one's ticket to court...)

BTW, any ideas on how, where and when Presbies began wearing stoles over their robes? Seems to be a post-1950s thing, judging from the pics from the LIFE mag website...


At the risk of courting disaster, I would suggest that as the stole is the symbol of a priest, and as a presbyterian minister is not a priest, then the wearing of a stole is as inapproprate as wearing a chasuble, (which is also the symbol of the priesthood).

However I'm quickly adding YMMV and running for cover... [Biased]

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Offeiriad

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The stole and chasuble have only come to be seen as denoting priesthood in modern times.

Historical Lutheranism retained the chasuble but rejected the stole as 'priestly'.

Deacons and Bishops also wear stoles, while Deacons and Subdeacons wore chasubles (of a rather odd form) instead of dalmatic and tunicle during penitential seasons in the Roman Rite until modern times.

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+Chad

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quote:
Originally posted by Hare today:
Our Canons wear the Cathedral Arms (see +Chad's avatar) near the base of the tippet on each side.

Incidentaly, the Vergers wear the same Cathedral badge on one sleeve of their gown and the Guild of Vergers badge on the other.

Ah, you're in God's own Diocese?!

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Sober Preacher's Kid

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I would venture most ministers could not tell the different between a stole and a scarf. Though tartan stoles seem to be gaining popularity. [Big Grin]

Around here the stole is a symbol of one's authority to preside at the Lord's Supper which is why they are used by ordained ministers, Presbytery chairs, Conference Presidents and the Moderator. The last three may preside at the Lord's Supper when celebrating for their respective court assemblies, whether lay or ordained.

Here is a picture of Mardi Tindal , the new (lay) Moderator of the United Church of Canada, celebrating the Lord's Supper for the 40th General Council with her predecessor, the Very Rev. David Giuliano. Note the very nice stole.

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