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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Tatler
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Well, although I don't sympathise with the anti-stole sentiment, I think you are correct about the sacerdotal implications in that the stole is the quintessential sacramental vestment. It unifies all other vestments; a former priest of mine contended that in a pinch a priest in civvies could throw a stole round his neck and he would be perfectly vested to celebrate the Eucharist. Of course that is not infrequently what is done in combat situations.
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Low Treason
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I was interested to note from the broadcast of the Pope's visit to Westminster Abbey, that one of the Nonconformist representatives was wearing a purple stole over his geneva gown.

There are two possible readings of this - 1) that he considered the occassion to be penitential, or 2) he thought it was a nice colour. ISTM that if one is going to do something symbolic, at least do it properly.

On the other hand the Nonconformist women representatives wearing albs were festively attired in white/gold.

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Episcoterian
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quote:
Originally posted by WearyPilgrim:
Back to the discussion of gowns and stoles, if I may: the custom of wearing a stole with the Geneva gown began here in the States sometime in the Fifties. It became particularly ubiquitous among Methodist clergy, but it also saw it occasionally in Congregational/UCC circles. In more recent years, I have occasionally seen the combination worn by Presbyterians and even some Baptists. The gown has been somewhat displaced by the cassock-alb, especially among Methodists, but it remains the norm in the other denominational bodies. As a Congregationalist, it makes me cringe to see a Congregational minister wear an alb; in my view, it has no place in the Reformed tradition. I even have reservations about the stole. It has always been my understanding that it has sacerdotal connotations that run counter to the Reformed concept of ordination. Does anyone out there care to comment on this?

This article suggests that the use of stoles by reformed ministers began in the chaplaincies in WW2, and spread around after the war.

IMO, the stole restores a much needed symbolic balance between the two dimensions of the ministry in the Reformed tradition (Word and Sacraments). The robe adequately communicates the Ministry of the Word, the teaching role of the minister. The stole communicates the Ministry of the Sacraments, the role of the minister as a steward of God's mysteries. One is incomplete without the other.

I have nothing against the use of albs in Reformed churches. Historically, it's the dress of all baptised (and I know of many low church, even pentecostal credobaptist churches where folks are still baptised in albs). It might indeed emphasise the priesthood of all believers, and worn by anyone with a leading role in worship.

(And I will probably trade my Geneva robe for an alb during summer months, when I get ordained...)

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"We cannot let individualism make corporate worship impossible!" (iMonk)

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WearyPilgrim
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Playing the devil's advocate against my own argument, I recognize that there have long been those in the Reformed tradition who have questioned the wearing of the Geneva gown for Communion (and, for that matter, Baptism). I will concede there is something to be said for that.

As it is, Reformed vestments are what a friend of mine colorfully terms "a dog's breakfast" (this a Cooperative Baptist Fellowship chap who wears gown and stole, sometimes an alb). To be honest, I'm one of those anal-retentive people who likes uniformity. (Pardon the pun.) I guess this makes me a pretty lousy Congregationalist, eh?

[ 06. November 2010, 18:47: Message edited by: WearyPilgrim ]

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Mamacita

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A question from sebby on another thread:

quote:
Do any shipmates know of clergy (or maybe others) who wear Warham Guild hoods? These are the cowl shaped medieval looking ones extolled by Percy Dearmer.

Why are they that shape?

The vicar in my local church used to wear one a number of years ago, and one was spotted in the Gloucester diocese recently.




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+Chad

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The garment in question is here.

The Warham Guild hood is an attempt to get back to the earlier/original shape. The hood was adapted to fit over the heads of clergy when they started to wear wigs.

Judges still wear the old-style hood and tippet when in 'full-fig'.

I know a couple of laymen and a couple of clergy who have them, and one who is about to buy one - to go with my recently-acquired Warham Guild surplice. [Big Grin]

[ 18. December 2010, 18:43: Message edited by: +Chad ]

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Chad (The + is silent)

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Offeiriad

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I am pleased to say that the only hoods I have ever worn in 33 years of ministry have been of the Warham Guild pattern. I left College without a degree, but acquired a College 'survival hood' (!) as a memento of having endured 12 terms in that place. As a Deacon I wore it at a Methodist 'Welcome Service' for a new minister: the Stewards were most solicitous, addressing me as 'Monsignore'! [Confused]

On earning a degree years later I never invested in a hood relating to my newly acquired qualification since I hoped it would be soon be superseded by the garb of the Masters on which I immediately embarked. My relaunched academic career ran aground at that point, and for the last six years my ministry has been totally Eucharistic, so my 'choir dress' hasn't been worn for a long time. [Frown]

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sebby
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Did you wear it with black scarf?

Are such hoods regarded as 'high church'?

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sebhyatt

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Offeiriad

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quote:
Originally posted by sebby:
Did you wear it with black scarf?

Are such hoods regarded as 'high church'?

I confess to the occasional sin of local custom. Yes, they are regarded as 'high church' (and perversely obscurantist!): worn over rochet or cotta and accompanied by a biretta they can cut a marvellously humble while faintly exotic dash in those kinds of church procession which tend to look like an explosion in a tinsel factory. [Devil]

In very Anglican contexts I would indeed wear it with a full English surplice, and a black scarf. I never expected to wear the scarf that often, so my 90p secondhand one bought from 'Pax House' in Ipswich prior to ordination has lasted the whole of my ministry. When I am canonised, it will make an excellent relic. [Big Grin]

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Mamacita

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On the English Missal Services in London thread, mention was made of folded chasubles (image here) . Georgiaboy then posted:
quote:
The folded chas at ordination (in the Extr Rite) is a temporary affair, the back being hitched up.
The folded chas for the D & SD in Advent & Lent (pre-PiusXII) are a permanently folded-up-in-front confection. Standing ad orientam the 3 ministers usually look exactly alike to the congo.
The reasons for the folding-up and for the D's 'broad stole' (which is not a stole) are too arcane and complicated for me to rehearse here.

I'm curious about this. Does anyone have experience with this practice? Can someone provide an explanation of it for those of us who are mystified by it? "The Tatler" being the place for arcane discussion related to all things tat, have at it!

[ 30. December 2010, 17:47: Message edited by: Mamacita ]

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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PD
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The folding of the chasuble is a relic of the days when the vestment was large, conical, and tended to get in the way. In order to reduce the amount they obstructed the used of the arms they were folded either at the front so you could handle a book, or in the case of the deacon after the Gospel, into a broad scarf or stole worn over the left shoulder so that it does not get in the way when setting the Table at the offertory.

Now for non-penitential seasons, the folded chasubles were replaced by the dalmatic and tunicle quite early on, say by 1100AD, but in this, as in so many other minor details, the Masses for Lent and Advent retain the older custom.

The use of the folded chassie was discontinued in stages between 1954 and 1965. I am not sure that it was banned, but the rubrics stating on which occasions it had to be used gradually disappeared from the liturgical books.

PD

[ 31. December 2010, 15:51: Message edited by: PD ]

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Mamacita

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Thanks, PD. I'm confused by the connection of the folded chasuble to the penitential seasons -- how did it get linked to Advent and Lent? Is there a particular symbolism involved, or a practical reason for it?

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Offeiriad

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I think the significance is the other way round: the dalmatic as the 'garment of joy' wasn't appropriate in penitential seasons.
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Mamacita

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quote:
Originally posted by Ahleal V on another thread:
Does anyone know if a Canterbury Cap "should" have a liturgical use, or is it merely something to be worn to warm the head in chilly weather? I've never actually seen one in the wild, so to speak, and the only place I've ever seen birettas is in Bourne Street.

Should one presume a good traddy Anglo-Catholic would just read Canterbury Cap in the place of a birretta in the rubrics for whichever version of Ritual Notes etc one might use?

Of course, I say "should" and "know" with the understanding that all these things are within the nice broad realms of 'custom' and 'local use', and the 'Western Rite' and 'British Museum Religion' etc

AV



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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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PD
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The Canterbury cap is firmly outdoor wear for keeping the heid warm.

PD

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Corvo
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The biretta, Canterbury cap, and academic cap all have a common origin, but as far as I know only the biretta has ever been worn 'liturgically'. I have seen the Cc worn by an elderly cleric sitting in choir, and by others (outdoors and in procession) at funerals.
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Chorister

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One of our former priests used to wear a skull cap during services. It looked like a jewish cap, or the one the pope wears. I've not seen it worn in other Anglican churches - how usual is it?

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Ceremoniar
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Not very--usually a small handful of Anglo-Catholic ritualists.
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CL
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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
One of our former priests used to wear a skull cap during services. It looked like a jewish cap, or the one the pope wears. I've not seen it worn in other Anglican churches - how usual is it?

That would be a zuchetto.

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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria

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Mamacita

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quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
One of our former priests used to wear a skull cap during services. It looked like a jewish cap, or the one the pope wears. I've not seen it worn in other Anglican churches - how usual is it?

Here's an old thread about priestly zuchetti, for your entertainment.

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Chorister

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You have an amazing memory, Mamacita - thankyou. [Smile]

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PD
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Around my way you might occasionally find a bishop wearing a zuchetto to celebrate Mass. Otherwise, they seem to be worn outside of service time by elderly clerics whose heads get cold easily.

PD

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WearyPilgrim
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I know more than one Protestant cleric who wears a Canterbury cap with pulpit gown and academic hood for baccalaureate services, graduations, and so forth --- specifically academic occasions.
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
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Is it exclusive to clergy, or can crazy laics such as yours truly wear a Canterbury cap, too? I would like to wear one with my MA gown after my viva.

And I'd like a Warham Guild hood, too! [Big Grin]

[ 01. February 2011, 06:06: Message edited by: Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known ]

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Pommie Mick
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Its the stole that has the sacerdotal connotations. The alb is simply the baptismal garment which any baptized Christian is entitled to wear.
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otyetsfoma
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A "John Knox Cap" is the appropriate headgear for PhDs from Heriot Watt Uni. When my daughter needed one I lent her my canterbury cap and no one noticed the difference.
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Mamacita

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Copied from another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by jmoskal:

Sorry if this has been answered but I searched and couldnt find it.

For Choir Dress is it appropriate for a permanent deacon to wear an undergraduate hood if that is the only one they have and in a field other than theology(business)?

quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

Perfectly kosher. I have seen a curate with a speech therapy hood, and an organist with her MB.

quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:

It appears the question is answered, however, I'm going to copy these posts over to The Tatler, our long-running conversation about vestments and such, in case anyone has additional comments to offer.


Mamacita, Eccles Host



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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Spike

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quote:
Originally posted by jmoskal:

For Choir Dress is it appropriate for a permanent deacon to wear an undergraduate hood if that is the only one they have and in a field other than theology(business)?

Yes

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
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Copied from another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by mimmi:
Saturno or Capello Romano

Two (and a bit) questions, please;

1) Wikepedia says worn with the cassock - so I guess not by clergy in suits. Is that right? and if so what does the priest wear on his head if he is wearing a black suit?

and

2) Anyone know an online Saturno supplier? (!)



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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Clavus
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Barbiconi saturno
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Mamacita

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Here's an earlier post about saturnos, from Clavus!

(Hint: if you want to search within a thread, click on the "printer-friendly view" icon at the top of the thread. Then use the "Function/F" process to search for a word.)

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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mimmi
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quote:
Originally posted by Clavus:
Barbiconi saturno

They are expensive, aren't they. Over £125 for a hat. Perhaps because they are rare.
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Mamacita

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Copied from another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by wesleyan:

I'm in the market for new vestments. I'm a pastor in the UMC in the Southeast. The norm around here is the black pulpit robe. (At Annual Conference last year, there were exactly two people in albs.) Here's the trick: I'm about to be awarded a PhD in theology. So I want the opinion of the shipmates: are marks on a pulpit robe that denote academic achievement in a theological field appropriate in the leadership of worship? There's part of me that is proud to finally be getting this degree (after 7 years of work), but then part of me says that this is *exactly* the reason why I shouldn't get any marks of the degree on new vestments. What to do?

quote:
Originally posted by lily pad:

What kind of a question is that? Of course you get the bars. Duh. You earned them. You wear them proudly. That kind of pride is just fine in church circles. Just, live up to them and don't say too many stupid things when you are wearing that gown, k?



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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Beeswax Altar
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Yes. Symbols of academic rank are an acceptable if you are wearing a preaching gown. You could also wear a hood if you so desired.

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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
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Agreed. Even those who received honorary doctorates tend to wear the gown with a hood on. Seeing that you have earned it, you deserve an upgrade of your preaching kit.

As for wearing it with any other piece of vesture, I suppose the gown+stole combination will do, although another school of thought agrees that one can wear gown+hood+stole. However, one's mileage may vary.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by wesleyan:

There's part of me that is proud to finally be getting this degree (after 7 years of work), but then part of me says that this is *exactly* the reason why I shouldn't get any marks of the degree on new vestments. What to do?

I'll be the voice of dissent here. For context, I'm a Presbyterian (also in the Southeast), so I'm very used to an emphasis on an educated clergy and on the teaching role of the minister.

I would probably listen to the part of you that says being proud of earning the degree is why you shouldn't get them. I tend to look a little askance at ministers who insist on doctoral stripes on their robes (especially if they are scarlet rather than black). Fairly or unfairly, it just comes across to me as potentially pretentious. I know from conversations that I am not alone in this.

At least in a Presbyterian context, Geneva gowns and stoles are the norm, with albs and stoles not being uncommon either. I haven't done a study of it, but it does seem like doctoral stripes aren't seen as often as they once were on those entitled to them -- there seems to be a trend toward Geneva gowns that look a little less like academic gowns. (Though we still use closed-front Geneva gowns. I'd much prefer the Scottish veted style, but nobody asked me.) And I can't think of the last time I saw a hood.

All of that said, I'd probably look at what the norm in your Annual Conference is and follow that. Or see what your DS thinks.

[ 23. February 2011, 19:20: Message edited by: Nick Tamen ]

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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On another forum where I post (yes, they doe exist [Big Grin] ) specifically for Anglican Readers, someone has posted a link to a "Reader's Stole" that was recently sold on ebay. None of us on the forum has ever come across such a garment and think it may possibly be a Roman Catholic vestment. It can be seen here (You'll need to scroll down to see it properly).

Has anyone any idea what this is and where/when it would be worn and by whom?

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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In a former position, I occasionally wore my master's hood over cassock and surplice at the organ. Some in the congregation probably muttered behind my back about that; but part of my reasoning was that, inasmuch as the robes worn by the senior choir *all* included fake academic hoods, they couldn't reasonably object to a real one.

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
On another forum where I post (yes, they doe exist [Big Grin] ) specifically for Anglican Readers, someone has posted a link to a "Reader's Stole" that was recently sold on ebay. None of us on the forum has ever come across such a garment and think it may possibly be a Roman Catholic vestment. It can be seen here (You'll need to scroll down to see it properly).

Has anyone any idea what this is and where/when it would be worn and by whom?

Such things are advertised in the States as choir "stoles".
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

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They have been worn for some time by the extraordinary ministers of holy communion (i.e. lay ministers of communion) at Westminster Cathedral. They are not officially a vestment but more of a "badge" to identify the ministers.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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Thanks, that's great.

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135

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I've just got back from a holiday in the Nether Regions and Germany, and I was intrigued to note that pictures of the auxiliary bishops of Aachen appeared to show them wearing ordinary white open-necked turn-down collars over what I could only describe as black wooly jumpers, with grey business suits on top.

There's an example of what I mean on this page: German bishops looking casual

The diocesan bishops were by contrast wearing full Roman bishoply attire- cassock, red buttons, shoulder-cape, pectoral cross.

Now is this a specifically German version of clerical dress? Is it something that auxiliary bishops do? And does the diocesan bishop get to go in the Tat Cupboard first and nab all the nice stuff?

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Joan_of_Quark

Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887

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quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
... a link to a "Reader's Stole" that was recently sold on ebay. None of us on the forum has ever come across such a garment and think it may possibly be a Roman Catholic vestment. It can be seen here (You'll need to scroll down to see it properly).

Has anyone any idea what this is and where/when it would be worn and by whom?

I've seen these in one or two London Anglican churches around the necks of lay people (not necessarily Readers) who are helping to distribute communion, and heard them referred to as "sashes" rather than stoles.

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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness

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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by Laurence:
I've just got back from a holiday in the Nether Regions and Germany, and I was intrigued to note that pictures of the auxiliary bishops of Aachen appeared to show them wearing ordinary white open-necked turn-down collars over what I could only describe as black wooly jumpers, with grey business suits on top.

There's an example of what I mean on this page: German bishops looking casual

The diocesan bishops were by contrast wearing full Roman bishoply attire- cassock, red buttons, shoulder-cape, pectoral cross.

Now is this a specifically German version of clerical dress? Is it something that auxiliary bishops do? And does the diocesan bishop get to go in the Tat Cupboard first and nab all the nice stuff?

Yes, it is a specifically German (including Austria and German-speaking Switzerland) version of clerical dress. We have a priest of my (English) diocese who trained in Germany and he habitually adopts this dress.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596

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The collars look very much like those of the Fathers of the Oratory.
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Laurence
Shipmate
# 9135

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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
The collars look very much like those of the Fathers of the Oratory.

Yes, that was one of my thoughts- are all these bishops Oratorians? I think the German collars hang down a bit lower that the Oratorian ones. And they don't seem to be worn with cassocks either. Does anyone know when the fashion grew up?
Posts: 648 | From: Lincolnshire | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Earwig

Pincered Beastie
# 12057

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Help! It seems as though I may have promised to crochet a feriola, during a slightly boozy evening at a clergy conference.

What the heck is a feriola? Google is not my friend! And apparantly, neither is wine.

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aredstatemystic
Shipmate
# 11577

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A ferriola is a short shoulder cape for a cassock, I believe. I think it is usually black.

Whatever it is, next time you drink, invite me to come! It sounds like it was my kind of party! [Cool] [Overused]

Posts: 154 | From: Oh, You Know. | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged
Peter's Bark
Apprentice
# 16074

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It's a voluminous ankle-length cape. Google 'ferraiolo' if you wish to see some examples. They are usually made of silk or wool. I would not have thought it possible to crochet one. If you do, the wearer will certainly stand out! Good luck.

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You can recognise me by progressive elimination... Just eliminate all the progressives.

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The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664

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Ferriola - Short and elbow length
Ferriolone - Long ankle-length cape

Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged



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