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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Tatler
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
Ah, thank you all! I think I'm going to have to be humble and back down on this one. Unless I could buy a ferriola and crochet a lace edging. Possibly with a grape motif. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Thing is, I think she'd wear it. The first time I met this priest, she was wearing what I think is a capello. I called it a frisbee.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I *think* this fits here.
We have some old church light fittings sitting in the garage - the sort that you see in lots of the Victorian churches around, rings of metal suspended from the roof on chains, with downlighters arranged on the ring. Is there any way of getting in contact with other churches which could make use of them?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
Our Diocesan newsletter has 'free to a good home' pieces for things like that.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
Missed edit time - or you could contact your Diocesan church buildings officer - they may know of churches that might want such things.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I forgot to put up these links that Tatlerites might be interested in last week.
Here's an interview with our liturgical seamstress. And here are the new vestments she made for our ordinandi.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
From another thread:
quote:
Originally posted by Weary Pilgrim:
I don't own a cassock alb, but I know quite a few clergy (of various denominations) who do have one.
I've noticed, from time to time, a very distinct thread of prejudice against them that weaves around the masts of the SOF. Succinctly, and without bringing up something that may be a Dead Horse, what are the principal objections? I'm just curious.
(I have two reasons for not wearing such: I think they're totally out of place in my own [Congregational] tradition, and as one who bears not-inconsiderable avoirdupois, I'd look like a giant marshmallow in one.)
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Everyone looks like a giant marshmallow in one. They have no history. They like any other polyester piece of cr*p was simply made to be sold.
I hate them because they are pseudo-monkish, that is they look like they were based on a Hollywood or high school drama coach's idea of a monks habit rather than anything remotely associated with the Eucharist in the past 2000 years. Eucharistic vestments evolved from the clothes of the Roman Empire and have been imbued with symbolic meaning ever since they dropped out of street fashion. Cassock-albs were, again, simply invented to be sold.
And the needlessly ginormous sleeves would prevent me from making the traditional manual acts that is possible in a wrist-fitting alb.
Also if you're in areas without much water or electricity, they are absurd. The traditional vestments can be worn for a very long time if you hang them out to dry and all you have to do is wash the tiny amice. Very practical.
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican Brat:
Cassock-albs make sense if you are late for Divine Service and don't have time to button two pieces of clothing (cassock and alb).
But then I prefer an alb be treated strictly as an undergarment under the chasuble. If a priest is assisting or simply preaching at Divine Service, he or she should be vested in a surplice and stole. So, in my view, the good thing about a cassock-alb in a proper Divine Service is that it is hidden under a chasuble.
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Eucharistic vestments evolved from the clothes of the Roman Empire and have been imbued with symbolic meaning ever since they dropped out of street fashion.
And, presumably, the cassock-alb evolved from that.
quote:
And the needlessly ginormous sleeves would prevent me from making the traditional manual acts that is possible in a wrist-fitting alb.
Not all cassock-albs have big sleeves. I've seen quite a lot with narrow sleeves. As for being "pseudo-monkish", they don't all have hoods either.
quote:
Originally posted by Huts:
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Everyone looks like a giant marshmallow in one. They have no history. They like any other polyester piece of cr*p was simply made to be sold.
So if this is the case why are clergy made to wear them for their priesting's (with stole). Down in our South Coast UK Anglo-Catholic diocese they must be worn.
If they have no history why don't people just wear cassock and surplice - I always assumed it was a theological thing that being low church I didn't understand.
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Huts, your diocese requires the cassock-alb, as opposed to simply an alb or as an optional alternative the cassock-alb???? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
That would have been a problem for me as I do not like cassock-albs and did not possess one until I moved to Arizona. It was traditional alb for my ordination to the diaconate and cassock surplice and tippet for my priesting. Different bishops; different dioceses. I ask ordinands to wear cassock, surplice and have a stole handy as that seems to be the unblameable middle way.
PD
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Eucharistic vestments evolved from the clothes of the Roman Empire and have been imbued with symbolic meaning ever since they dropped out of street fashion.
And, presumably, the cassock-alb evolved from that.
Ah...the Empire's new clothes!
John
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I wear cassock and traditional alb, but there are occasions when I think it might be quite useful to possess a cassock-alb. Maybe I will succumb one of these days.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I nominate the topic of the cassock-alb for the first ever DH thread from Ecclesiantics. Surely it meets the criteria for a dead equine.
I am absolutely serious. How cool would it be for an Eccles issue to make it into Dead Horses?!?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I've learned to accept cassock-albs because they pale in comparison to the horror that is fiddlebacks.
Fiddlebacks are a sin against nature, pure and simple.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I used to hate fiddlebacks, but then I moved to Arizona!
Our church has swamp coolers rather than A-C. This is OK aparts from a nasty few weeks at the end of June beginning of July every year when the temperature and humidity are somewhat reminescent of Alabama. That is when even an ardent Dearmerite begins to appreciate the fiddleback chasuble!
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I nominate the topic of the cassock-alb for the first ever DH thread from Ecclesiantics. Surely it meets the criteria for a dead equine.
I am absolutely serious. How cool would it be for an Eccles issue to make it into Dead Horses?!?
Actually, 'Crappy Choruses and Horrible Hymns' is already in Dead Horses, so it wouldn't be the first (and topics relating to the Ordination of Women and Open vs. Closed Communion are also partly related to issues of worship).
If you want a serious discussion about that then the Styx would be the place for it but I'm not sure Cassock-albs come up often enough to make it an issue. One of the reasons we have the Tatler is to contain discussion of minor vestment-related grievances without having to go the whole hog and invoke Dead Horsery!
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
I used to hate fiddlebacks, but then I moved to Arizona!
Our church has swamp coolers rather than A-C. This is OK aparts from a nasty few weeks at the end of June beginning of July every year when the temperature and humidity are somewhat reminescent of Alabama. That is when even an ardent Dearmerite begins to appreciate the fiddleback chasuble!
PD
Is it possible that fiddlebacks actually evolved in response to summer weather in southern Europe and Latin America? I know little of historical geographical trends affecting vestments in the Western Church, but this seems a possibility. It might be analogous to what I understand was historically the southern European preference for short cottas vs the northern European preference for longer and relatively heavier surplices, hence the old English surplice. This could well justify the use of fiddlebacks in most unairconditioned North American churches in summertime.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Jon in the Nati
Shipmate
# 15849
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Posted
quote:
Is it possible that fiddlebacks actually evolved in response to summer weather in southern Europe and Latin America?
That is probably one reason, though I don't know if it is the only reason. Another is that the development of the chasuble into the fiddleback form coincided with the increasing prevalence of the 'private mass' (a mass celebrated by the priest alone and without servers to help the priest manipulate the vestments, thus requiring greater freedom of movement for the celebrant).
I happen to own one not-very-nice fiddleback, which I have never worn. A big issue with the reintroduction of fiddleback vestments is that they look plain foolish when celebrating facing the people. Precious few Catholics and Anglicans (outside of nosebleed land) celebrate facing east.
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Homer: Aww, this isn't about Jesus, is it?
Lovejoy: All things are about Jesus, Homer. Except this.
Posts: 773 | From: Region formerly known as the Biretta Belt | Registered: Aug 2010
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The chaplain at my college used to wear Fiddlebacks that were the Spanish cut - i.e. no "keyhole" in front, so they looked OK when he was celebrating VP. My church, which is far from nosebleed, celebrates facing East, so how they look over the counter is not an issue for us.
PD
(ed: silly typo)
[ 03. June 2011, 16:56: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Low Treason
Shipmate
# 11924
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Posted
A clerical acquaintance who is much given to Fresh Expressions™ once opined that fiddle-backs are far superior to gothic chazzies because they make it so much easier to sit on the floor cross-legged whilst wearing them...
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
Posts: 1914 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Copied from leo's thread on 'Albs with Buttons':
quote:
Can there be such a thing? Our visiting priest this morning wore a cassock-alb with buttons all the way down - like a white cassock and quite unlike those old-fashioned albs which simply had a top button.
(It wasn't the Pope was it??? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) )
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I too have seen people with these white garments buttoned all the way down the front. I wondered if the wearer harboured papal ambitions...
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Low Treason
Shipmate
# 11924
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Copied from leo's thread on 'Albs with Buttons':
quote:
Can there be such a thing? Our visiting priest this morning wore a cassock-alb with buttons all the way down - like a white cassock and quite unlike those old-fashioned albs which simply had a top button.
(It wasn't the Pope was it??? )
Hhmmm... did he speek vis a Schermenn eccendt?
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
Posts: 1914 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Never seen an alb with buttons, but I have seen white cassocks. In fact, my community's mission habit has a white cassock as part of it, as does that of the White Fathers.
My cassock was once returned from the cleaners with "alb -- black" printed on the receipt. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
By a host losing/amalgamating my question, I fear there will never be an answer.
Without wishing to drop someone in it, the woman in question wore her diaconal stole 'back to front' last year - presumably because nobody told her how to dress.
It may be that she thought a while cassock would be a whizzo way to save money.
But are there not some tat-lovers who have all the catalogues and who can tell me that albs with buttons exits?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Was it something like this, leo?
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
By a host losing/amalgamating my question, I fear there will never be an answer.
I'm not sure what your concern is, leo. DJ_O copied your question word-for-word from the other thread. It has been our standard practice here to transfer short, specific questions about vestments to this general Tatler thread for several months, and people who frequent Ecclesiantics know it's here. In fact you've received two bona fide responses so far, three if you count mine.
Should you have further issues with a hosting decision, you can take it to the Styx.
Mamacita, Eccles Host
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Mamacita asked:
Was it something like this, leo?
The one I've seen was nowhere near as smartly tailored as that.
It was a loose-fitting cassocky-alby-thingy with fewer buttons. An altogether dreadful garment.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mrs Goggins
Apprentice
# 16404
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Posted
Canon's hats (biretta)
What is the colour of the pom pom?
If red, what shade?
A link to one would be very welcome ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 20 | From: Greendale | Registered: May 2011
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Clavus
Shipmate
# 9427
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Posted
But purple pompoms are also seen sometimes (on a black biretta).
Posts: 389 | From: The Indian Summer of the C of E | Registered: May 2005
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Mrs Goggins
Apprentice
# 16404
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Posted
Thank you Sacred London. Very helpful.
I thought, until you gave that link, that that would be a bishop's biretta. So is a bishop's not black with a pom pom?
I saw a canon in a Cathedral (I am talking here about C of E) with red buttons on his cassock, I take it the pom pom matches that red. If they wear a sash is that all the same red or just edged in red.
(Again if a kind soul could link to a photo that would be great).
Posts: 20 | From: Greendale | Registered: May 2011
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Corvo
Shipmate
# 15220
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Goggins:
Thank you Sacred London. Very helpful.
I thought, until you gave that link, that that would be a bishop's biretta. So is a bishop's not black with a pom pom?
I saw a canon in a Cathedral (I am talking here about C of E) with red buttons on his cassock, I take it the pom pom matches that red. If they wear a sash is that all the same red or just edged in red.
(Again if a kind soul could link to a photo that would be great).
http://www.wattsandco.com/clerical-wear/canons-wear/canons-cassock.html
Posts: 672 | From: The Most Holy Trinity, Coach Lane, North Shields | Registered: Oct 2009
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Mrs Goggins
Apprentice
# 16404
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Posted
Sacred London thanks again.
Thanks too to a private message pointing me to another website.
Is this garment from that website a canon's?
And what about a canon's skullcap is that black or another colour?
Posts: 20 | From: Greendale | Registered: May 2011
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Erm, why so interested?
Is Mr. Goggins a Canon?
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Mrs Goggins
Apprentice
# 16404
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Posted
No Mr Goggins isn't!
I've seen some canons with piping on their cassocks. I wondered how far the change of colour went. Hat / sash and so on.
I also was confused as I thought some of this was bishop's regalia and not canons.
And so I looked here for help
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
For Anglican parishes with a decidedly low-church bent, what exactly would their servers wear? I was a bit surprised when I saw a picture of a server wearing a cotta and a cassock at a low Anglican Church. Considering, the historical antipathy of low Anglicans to Rome, I would expect that they would not be thrilled in having their servers in Roman-like robes.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Goggins:
No Mr Goggins isn't!
I've seen some canons with piping on their cassocks. I wondered how far the change of colour went. Hat / sash and so on.
I also was confused as I thought some of this was bishop's regalia and not canons.
And so I looked here for help
Old fashioned Roman and Anglo-Catholic use was for Bishops have purple piping and cincture; Canons have aramath red. Bishop's actually look quite a bit dowdier than Canons apart from the bling until a bishops gets into his choir cassock which is purple.
Of course, some of us Anglicans prefer red-purple Sarum cassocks on our bishops not that aprons and gaiters are out of style.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
For Anglican parishes with a decidedly low-church bent, what exactly would their servers wear? I was a bit surprised when I saw a picture of a server wearing a cotta and a cassock at a low Anglican Church. Considering, the historical antipathy of low Anglicans to Rome, I would expect that they would not be thrilled in having their servers in Roman-like robes.
I, too, have found this mildly peculiar, but it seems to be common among MOTR and lower Canadian churches, or at least those who have cassocked servers. I am not 100% certain that they know of the Roman antecedents of the practice.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I always associated red cassocks and cottas with a certain species of MOTR Episcopal Church. It is the sort of place where you know someone is going to be wearing white gloves and processing the cross elbow out.
OTOH, I associate black cassocks and cottas with old-fashioned Anglo-Catholicism, especially if there is a hint of lace on Sundays and festivals.
Servers in cassock-albs is something I associate with the MOTR crowd. You get extra credit of twee-ness if you have girdles (aka cinctures) in the appropriate liturgical colours.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
Here in England the next step down would take you to the territory of the nasty nylon cassock-alb. (I'm not necessarily speaking to the claim that there is such a thing as a non-nasty cassock-alb, just saying these would be at the potato-sack end of the market.)
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I remember them well! For years my home parish had put servers in cassock and surplice/cotta, then someone had the bright idea of putting them in cassock-albs. The first few were as nice of cassock-albs get, but after that it approximated to the 'tatey sack' end of the species. In certain cases, no make matters worse, they bought what were described as 'oatmeal' coloured albs, which meant there was not even uniformity of colour.
Another thing to moan about over the gin with one's fellow High Churchfolk!
PD
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3rdFooter
Shipmate
# 9751
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Posted
What is the significance of a zucchetto? Does it indicate any particular post within the church or can anyone where one?
3F
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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom
Posts: 602 | From: outskirts of Babylon | Registered: Jul 2005
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
There's a short conversation about zuchetti upthread a bit, which might be helpful.
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mrs Goggins
Apprentice
# 16404
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Posted
Socks.
Have bishops worn purple socks?
Posts: 20 | From: Greendale | Registered: May 2011
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Guilty as charged.
An RC cousin sent me a job lot of purple socks just in time for my consecration as a bishop. That was a difficult thank-you note to write.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
On the subject of episcopal hosiery:
Some years ago the TEC Dio of Kentucky elected a new bishop. We didn't get the fun of a consecration as he was a missisonary bishop translated, but anyway.
He was somewhat farther up the candle than his predecessors, and he was very tall, so that his trousers were a bit short, thereby showing off his magenta socks, which exactly matched his magenta rabat (sp?)
At his welcoming reception one lady was heard to ask 'Do you think that's all one piece?' which conjured up visions of puurple footy-pajamas.
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You can't retire from a calling.
Posts: 1675 | From: saint meinrad, IN | Registered: Apr 2006
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Goggins:
Socks.
Have bishops worn purple socks?
When a friend went to selection conference in city X for ordination training, the bishop on the panel said he preferred the conferences at X as they gave him the chance to go to a local shop that sold really nice purple socks and boxers. The way this is told, the candidates only got to see the socks.
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
If anyone wants to feast their eyes on a selection of fine TAT, then they might like to have a look at the exhibition here.
This hand-embroidered cope is particularly magnificent.
(There are also some academic robes mixed in but mostly it's ecclesiastical of one sort or another, and I'd say there's something for every taste!)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
Although I am late in responding, I believe that non-papal white cassocks are a concession to tropical heat and humidity. The first one I encountered was worn by a priest who had recently returned from service as a chaplain in Vietnam.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
Posts: 406 | From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | Registered: Apr 2007
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Quam Dilecta:
Although I am late in responding, I believe that non-papal white cassocks are a concession to tropical heat and humidity. The first one I encountered was worn by a priest who had recently returned from service as a chaplain in Vietnam.
That holds true here for the most part, at least among the clergy who do wear cassocks. ++Manila does so on occasion, although he'd much rather wear a plain hooded habit or his clericals inside the office.
Posts: 1833 | From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: May 2006
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
I remember seeing a photo of a group of clergy from the diocese of hell's waiting room in white cassocks. The bishop was in white with purple piping, etc., the priests had black buttons and bindings.
I have a white cassock for those occasions when there might be a risk of my being outside in summer in Phoenix or Tucson. Technically both are a bit too far north for white to be kosher, but my reputation for getting too hot and passing out ensures that only the most ardent liturgical anoraks complain.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Son of Dearmer
Apprentice
# 13652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Instead I wear rochet and red chimere at diocesan council, which seems to make the point.
PD
I was under the impression that once the scarlet chimere was only worn by Bishops who had been admitted to a Doctor's degree (viz the Oxford Doctor's Convocation robes). I do think it is a shame that the distinction had been lost.
Posts: 40 | From: U.K. | Registered: Apr 2008
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