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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: 1 Tim 2:8 prayer
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
1 Tim 2:8 says:
quote:
I wish, then, for men in every place to pray with hands raised, without anger or argument.
Do you? (Raise your hands when you pray, that is.)
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
No. Not really my style.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I wonder if the recommendation to raise your hands is connected to the last part of the verse? If you raise your hand, you can't use it to hit your neighbour.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Not in every place.
But seriously, palms up with hands resting on my legs whilst praying seated is one of my more common postures.
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
Is this verse referring to the orans position? If so, then occassionally.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I wonder if the recommendation to raise your hands is connected to the last part of the verse? If you raise your hand, you can't use it to hit your neighbour.
If you re-punctuate so that it reads "I wish, then, for men in every place to pray. With hands raised without anger or argument," then it looks that way.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
1. No. But if I was chanting my prayers a lot, I would think about it.
2. Somewhat misleading translation, I guess. Better:
RSV-CE: I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarrelling.
NAB-RE: It is my wish, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands, without anger or argument.
The desire of the apostle is clearly that we pray peacefully, not that we raise our hands. The latter is just used as a different way of indicating prayer again. It is interesting that back then they did pray that way, but not necessarily more.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
The desire of the apostle is clearly that we pray peacefully, not that we raise our hands.
I'm not sure if that's clear at all. I mean, it's clear that it's desired that we pray peaceably, but in another place, Paul is very keen to specify what kind of headwear women have when they prophecy, so why is it so implausible that it is intended here to specify mens' hand posture?
Gramaticly, "raising" is just a present participle modifying "men." If I was just reading this as an out-of-context Greek sentence, I'd say it was giving further specificity as to what kind of prayer was desired. You cited two very respectable translations and I don't see that either rule out this interpretation, though the RSV may lean toward making it less likely by omitting the comma that the NAB has.
I would have thought that this verse must be somehow connected to the orans posture, even if the precise posture has drifted some (in fact, there is great synchronous variety in this posture today). Liturgically, I use that posture whenever prescribed by the rubrics, of course. But, my question related more to private prayer.
Like balaam, I rarely raise my hands in private prayer, but I do use the open handed posture. I don't want to be a 1 Tim fundamentalist, but I wonder if there isn't some wisdom here about bodily prayer that ought to be regarded with the canonical authority it, in principle, has.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
IngoB: RSV-CE: I desire then that in every place the men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarrelling.
NAB-RE: It is my wish, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands, without anger or argument.
I find the word 'holy' interesting here. It is not in the version that Hart cited. What if 'without anger or quarrelling / argument' is some kind of modifier clarifying the meaning of the word 'holy' in this context?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I find the word 'holy' interesting here. It is not in the version that Hart cited.
My bad, I just missed the word. It's ὁσίους, devout, holy, pious.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I don't want to be a 1 Tim fundamentalist, but I wonder if there isn't some wisdom here about bodily prayer that ought to be regarded with the canonical authority it, in principle, has.
Judging by the Greek Interlinear, I still see no reason to assume that St Paul wanted to specify a prayer technique there. It seems to me like a clear rhetorical repetition, with the "raising of hands" simply being used as equivalent to "praying". That tells us that back then this prayer posture was very dominant (so much so that this was synonymous), but it does not tell us that St Paul was trying to impose it.
So I doubt that this imposition has in principle any "canonical authority", at least from this verse in scripture. I agree that this is (more or less) indicating an orans posture, and I also think that there might be "wisdom about bodily prayer" in this. I've linked to this in another context, but here is that Jewish prayer again. That's pretty much what I would imagine would have been used, in all the variety even visible in this one video, and that's why I said that if I was chanting prayers a lot I would likely adopt this somehow. That's where I would locate the "bodily wisdom", in connection to the voice production and the expressive body motion connected to it (prostrations, holding your face in your hand, etc.). However, I'm not chanting / acting prayers that much at the moment in my personal practice. And I think an orans posture may not be ideal for non-vocal "still" prayer as far as "bodily wisdom" goes. It would introduce considerable distracting physical strain if the hand were kept up statically for a long time.
[edited to give a working Greek interlinear link - the other one came up with a 404 error - CK]
[ 07. October 2014, 04:51: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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itsarumdo
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# 18174
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Posted
what if raising the hands is about simply turning the palms up in receipt of a divine gift (rather than auditioning for the black and white minstrel show)?
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
In the light of the whole passage, I tend to interpret the hands raised more as symbolising peace and surrender - praying with an open, vulnerable heart, and at peace with those around me. I don't literally raise my hands when I pray.
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itsarumdo
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# 18174
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Posted
Another thought
In Qigong there is a position that connects heaven and earth and streams energy through the body - which is with the body vertical and hands up - shoulders dropped (so that the support for the arms comnes from the hips rather than shoulders and the hands float and pull the arms up (rather than the arms lifting the hands). If there is a sufficient energetic connection and the attention is NOT on muscle, then the arms self-support - and I have known people stand in this position for 2 hours.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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Fineline
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# 12143
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Posted
I don't understand that position, itsarumdo. Is there a link to a picture?
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
Not really - most if the action is in intention rather than being physical
I can descriobe the basic posture - other stuff is far too complex to convey on a chat board
Think cowboy hands up (palms forwards) - the body is elongated and relaxed at the same time, the fingers are activated and alive, not stiff and not floppy, pointing straight upwards. Eyes look forwards at the horizon. The wrists joints and ankle joints are open. The feet are parallel pointing forwards and about hip distance apart, the top of the shoulders are relaxed so tyhat the gap between deltoid and trapezius creases stongly as the arms raise from the side (as if drawing a rainbow) - rather than raising from the front. It feels as if the fingers are leading and pulling the arms. When the front-back balance point on the feet is adjusted so it's not all on the heels, the front of the body also engages and the spine is no longer taking all the weight. The mind is also relaxed and aware of both the physical body and the space that it is in. If any heaviness or tension or pain arises, bounce up and down on the balls of the feet lightly to release the weight down into the floor and ocntinue to be more interested in lightness and how the arms and body might float upwards on their own.
The body has become a lightning conductor, fingers in the sky connected to Heaven, feet deep into the Earth. Wait, feel the connection, continue to ignore the muscles, bounce a bit more if necessary.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
1 Tim 2:8 says:
quote:
I wish, then, for men in every place to pray with hands raised, without anger or argument.
Do you? (Raise your hands when you pray, that is.)
Yes, i do. At least in Church. But then again I'm a priest, and the rubrics tell me to.
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492
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Posted
At Mass, I generally pray with folded hands.
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Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
I often (but not always) pray with hands raised at the Our Father during mass. Sometimes I do it when praying at home. What this means is that sometimes one hand is raised while the other hand is holding up a prayer book or the Liturgy of the Hours.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
What I find curious is that most people praying with "raised hands" actually do so as if they are expecting people to put some money into their palms. (So the palm is open, but horizontal facing upwards, fingers pointing forward but slightly out and the elbows form a low hanging vertical "V".)
But I don't think that this is "correct" at all: neither in the sense of any prior Judaeo-Christian tradition, nor in some kind of psychosomatic sense. The correct posture is with fingers pointing upwards, palms open and vertical, turned somewhere between forward and inward and hands are up so that the elbows are getting closer to a "L" shape. Basically, if you hold your face in your hands without dropping your head forward, and then you swing your elbows out until your chest comfortably opens without changing the forearm position, then that's more or less what I would consider a "proper" orans. In particular, if you would feel the need to absolutely scream at the top of your lungs next, then this should require no body adjustment at all.
It's a very active, open posture, from which it is easy to flow into a passive and closed posture (like collapsing your chest, dropping your head forward and holding it into your hands). What I see in most churches (in the pews) is rather different.
[ 29. October 2014, 16:49: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
It actually has something to do with that. Namely, it looks like it. And that is the only thing I was saying about it, other than that I don't know where people got that posture from - because these "begging hands" are unlikely to be the raising of hands of the bible, which probably was something like the traditional orans as depicted already in antiquity.
If however one wanted to turn the orans into a more contemplative (instead of proclaiming) posture, then one should lower the hands further until the forearms are almost horizontal, though pointing slightly to the centre, and make the palms face inward to the body. A bit like holding a big ball in front of your belly. That is an "energy containing" posture that lends itself to an inward focus.
Body posture matters, and in fact can provide a kind of dramatic emphasis to prayer if one changes between different postures in different parts. But what I see at the Lord's Prayer now mostly gives me the impression of people wanting to do something different, but not really knowing what they ought to do.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
It actually has something to do with that. Namely, it looks like it. And that is the only thing I was saying about it, other than that I don't know where people got that posture from - because these "begging hands" are unlikely to be the raising of hands of the bible, which probably was something like the traditional orans as depicted already in antiquity.
I think most people just find it easier. The "classic" orans posture with outstretched arms can get a bit tiring so the arms and hands naturally gravitate closer to the body. Plus, in a crowded pew it's awkward and difficult to stretch out the hands to the side so it's just easier to move the hands forward out of people's way.
Unless they have some kind of training in a field like dance or martial arts most people aren't that careful about bodily forms and postures. I think that most people you observe praying in that manner either think that they are in the orans posture and don't see the difference or to them it's just an acceptable variation or manner of praying, one that can look like "offering" as well as "receiving", like it maybe is in this picture of Syrian Christians praying.
[ 31. October 2014, 21:42: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
IngoB, have you considered that God may not CARE whether those who pray to him manage to make a perfect orans posture, or whether they adopt a position which to their untutored eyes conveys offering or receiving? If I adopted orans, I'd be distracted by the discomfort and also in danger of dislocating both shoulders. I am aware of no dominical command concerning the orans posture, and I think it improper to judge people for using a posture that you (not they) associate with money begging.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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ChastMastr
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# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
IngoB, have you considered that God may not CARE whether those who pray to him manage to make a perfect orans posture, or whether they adopt a position which to their untutored eyes conveys offering or receiving?
Amen. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) I believe if it helps you, awesome; if it doesn't, that's OK too.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I often pray with hands raised and open. The physical act seems to help me to receive.
I only ever do it at home, in private. I am rarely able to pray at all in Church, I'm too distracted. But I wouldn't raise my hands in Church anyway - I don't want to draw attention to myself when people are trying to focus on God.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
IngoB, have you considered that God may not CARE whether those who pray to him manage to make a perfect orans posture, or whether they adopt a position which to their untutored eyes conveys offering or receiving?
The people clearly care enough to do something different. What precisely is wrong with teaching them a classical posture? Instead of the umpteenth "engaging story", maybe the priest could one day just give a five minute explanation about traditional Judaeo-Christian prayer postures that one might wish to adopt? That's unthinkable why? When I was with the Buddhist, they didn't have the slightest qualms about teaching correct body posture in near everything Buddhist. If you had told them that such concerns distract people from their meditations, they would have just shook their heads at you. The body matters.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
If I adopted orans, I'd be distracted by the discomfort and also in danger of dislocating both shoulders.
The what now? A classical orans is not a full stretch cross posture. As I said above, just put your face in your palms without bending your head forward, and then swing out your arms to the side (maybe slightly dropping them) until you feel your chest open (lightly). How can this dislocate your shoulders? And yes,it is an active and open posture, that should be used when proclaiming things, and then accentuates this process precisely by the mild effort involved.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I am aware of no dominical command concerning the orans posture, and I think it improper to judge people for using a posture that you (not they) associate with money begging.
Well, the thread sort of started with the suggestion that there might be an apostolic command concerning this, didn't it? See thread title and OP...
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Unless they have some kind of training in a field like dance or martial arts most people aren't that careful about bodily forms and postures.
Let's change that then. Concern with posture is something useful we can learn not only from martial arts and dance, but also from Eastern religions. And I don't mind trying a variety of postures, including a "giving and receiving one". But I do mind an unseemly mess during mass, because that is a communal performance where we should be doing things together as far as we can (though really we are straying into Ecclesiantics territory there). And I also think that simply leaving people to make it up as they go along is not giving them freedom, but rather failing them. Those who do have a clue about traditional postures and/or the effects of body posture should share that clue.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You just don't get it, do you? Mass is not a performance. There is no audience (unless you want to consider God). It is worship. If you are fixating on the prayer posture, bad or otherwise, of the people around you, it's you that needs to reconsider your focus. Are you the priest? Do you have teaching authority and responsibility in the church? No? Then pray for your neighbor and stop criticizing him, internally or otherwise.
As for dislocations, you might consider that not everybody in the world is just like you. I happen to have a genetic syndrome (rather a common one) that means placing my arms in the position you suggest would result in them dropping right out of the freaking joint. Just because you can do it easily doesn't mean everyone else can. (Frequency of my syndrome is perhaps 1 in 200--which means it's very likely your parish has at least one of us, and probably more. Plus it's hereditary. Which means a family most likely, not one. And that's considering only a single physical limitation, leaving out the dozens of others that exist and may not be visible to your critical eyes.)
Give your neighbor a break.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Unless they have some kind of training in a field like dance or martial arts most people aren't that careful about bodily forms and postures.
Let's change that then. Concern with posture is something useful we can learn not only from martial arts and dance, but also from Eastern religions. And I don't mind trying a variety of postures, including a "giving and receiving one". But I do mind an unseemly mess during mass, because that is a communal performance where we should be doing things together as far as we can (though really we are straying into Ecclesiantics territory there). And I also think that simply leaving people to make it up as they go along is not giving them freedom, but rather failing them. Those who do have a clue about traditional postures and/or the effects of body posture should share that clue.
Oh, I agree that concern with posture is useful and that those of us who have clue about postures and their effects should share that. However, remember that it's only in the past few decades that the people's actions were specified in the rubrics. Before Ordinary Form/Novus Ordo, the actions mentioned in the rubrics were aimed at the priest. What people did in the pews was the result of local custom and of how much or how little they imitated the priest and servers in the sanctuary.
[This is the reason for all those posts in Ecclesiantics where Mr. Anglo-Catholic is shocked, schocked, shocked that the folks at St. Fuhgeddaboutit in Brooklyn do not cross themselves 20 times during the Creed like people do at his High Episcopalian church in Connecticut, St. Highfalutin-by-the-Sea.]
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the orans posture is even mentioned in the rubrics for the faithful at mass. This is a reason some traditionalists get bothered by it, thinking that it's a posture reserved only to the celebrant. Let's not also forget about people's physical limitations. There are plenty of people who are unable to kneel or genuflect because of bad knees.
Believe me, I sympathize. There are a bunch of things I wish people would do for a bunch of reasons (shoot, if I had my way we would all go back to dressing-up in our "Sunday Best" at mass).
I think that our exterior actions help shape our interior dispositions, if that makes any sense. I think, though, that as far as the orans posture is concerned, along with the reasons I gave up thread we would have better luck explaining what it is and how it helps and encouraging its use in private prayer and trust that the improved posture and the attitude that goes along with it carries over into mass.
We could do a lot just by investigating prayer postures used at different times and places in the West and reviving their use at home. It could then carry over into public worship and maybe even have a calming effect at mass, if you know what I mean.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Then pray for your neighbor and stop criticizing him, internally or otherwise.
Thank you for your sororal correction.
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I happen to have a genetic syndrome (rather a common one) that means placing my arms in the position you suggest would result in them dropping right out of the freaking joint.
Some people cannot kneel, so they shouldn't, and won't at mass. That doesn't mean that a discussion of kneeling as prayer posture is useless, or that kneeling isn't part of what one should do at mass if capable. Neither is a discussion of the orans forbidden just because you or others cannot hold that posture.
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the orans posture is even mentioned in the rubrics for the faithful at mass.
Indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
We could do a lot just by investigating prayer postures used at different times and places in the West and reviving their use at home. It could then carry over into public worship and maybe even have a calming effect at mass, if you know what I mean.
Well, I think we are in near perfect agreement on all this. By the way, I think the postures of the ladies in the front row in your picture (in particular of the two towards the right edge) work better for the Our Father itself. A better place for the orans might be for example the "Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts. ..." In particular because it is followed by kneeling prayer (a closed, passive posture).
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think the orans posture is even mentioned in the rubrics for the faithful at mass.
Indeed.
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
We could do a lot just by investigating prayer postures used at different times and places in the West and reviving their use at home. It could then carry over into public worship and maybe even have a calming effect at mass, if you know what I mean.
Well, I think we are in near perfect agreement on all this. By the way, I think the postures of the ladies in the front row in your picture (in particular of the two towards the right edge) work better for the Our Father itself. A better place for the orans might be for example the "Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God of hosts. ..." In particular because it is followed by kneeling prayer (a closed, passive posture).
Last Sunday I sat in a pew that was almost empty so I was happy that I was able to hold the full orans posture but the previous two weekends I sat in crowded pews where it was impossible to do a full orans posture. I had to hold my arms much like the ladies in the front row in the picture.
At least at home I can hold them out as much as I like but even that's not always true. Like I mentioned above if I'm holding a prayer or office book I'm forced to pull my arms and hand closer so that I can recite psalms, etc. without craning my head and twisting my neck too much.
I don't think the posture of the ladies in the front row work better for the Our Father (at least not at mass) because the orans posture is specified for the priest at that moment which means there's a good chance that posture has been associated with that prayer and that moment in the liturgy from ancient times. (Just like, if I understand correctly, the traditional chant melody for the Our Father is also an ancient one). There's an added power in having that connection to the earliest times whether praying at church or praying at home. It's one of the glories of the Roman Rite, that clear thread connecting us with our ancestors in the faith.
A problem with using the orans at the "Holy, Holy, Holy" is that at that point the priest is supposed to hold his hands together but there's really nothing stopping the people from doing it in the pews really or certainly at home. (I think it's a good home prayer anyways as are other prayers from mass). In fact where I live a lot of people hold their arms out during the Sursum Corda and even raise them when they say, "We lift them up to the Lord". I suspect it's an influence from the Charismatic Movement.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Still a topic of interest when the Kempistry board closed, so transferring to Ecclesiantics for further discussion.
Kelly Alves, Admin/ Kempistry Host.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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