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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Hatch, but not match and dispatch
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
Last week we had a baptism in our Sunday morning service - a fairly frequent event. But we have never had a wedding or a funeral.
Would anyone want their wedding or funeral during the normal service and would any church want it? Has anyone heard of this happening?
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Jante
Shipmate
# 9163
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Posted
I wanted my wedding in the normal service but our Vicar refused. We had our service on a Saturday but made it as much like the normal Sunday service as possible but included the vows.
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My blog http://vicarfactorycalling.blogspot.com/
Posts: 535 | From: deepest derbyshire | Registered: Mar 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
I have been to a wedding in the normal service. It was done very much "on the cheap" by a young couple who were regular members of the congregation, and wanted a no-fuss wedding. The bride wore her best dress, the groom wore his suit, and the congregation provided a pot-luck lunch / party in the church hall afterwards. Two or three of the better-off members of the congregation clubbed together to provide wine and fizz.
I thought it was great.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
We've also done a wedding in the normal service--in fact it was a double wedding, with the parents of the younger groom getting married at the same time as well. Their rationale for doing it during Sunday service was that they would invite all the same people anyway, and weren't interested in making a Hollywood production of it, so why not? It was way cool. And once they were done, they sat down, and we carried on with the rest of the service.
I doubt we'd do funerals that way, though, because the emotion involved would probably be seriously distracting to whatever else was going on in worship that day.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
I agree you can't really get away with it-- but I've actually fantasized about doing funerals during the regular service. There's too much cultural norms around doing funerals the way we do, but if I were "inventing" a culture from scratch, I'd plan on a monthly service of mourning at a regular scheduled date time (e.g. first Sunday of month). Planning the funeral can be so hard on families, it's just not something they do every day, and getting the word out and coordinating everyone's schedule can be challenging too. And often times if the deceased has been bedridden for sometime and is old enough that most of his/her friends have already died, the service can be so small it doesn' really give honor to the full life the person may have had. Whereas if we planned a single service of mourning once a month for everyone who happens to pass away that month, a lot of that could be done ahead of time. Music lined up, food for the reception, ushers, preacher, etc. You'd do some customization of course for the particular individuals who happened to pass away, but you've got the framework already in place to work from. If no one passes away that month, you could have a prayer/healing service instead-- or just a celebration of life and a bit of a feast.
But again, too many cultural norms working against it.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Since our funerals run to over an hour, and the Liturgy is already something between an hour and 90 minutes depending on incidentals and how many people are taking communion, and is often preceded with Matins which is a good 45 minutes to an hour anyway, I don't think the funeral during regular Sunday services is going to fly.
That said the last funeral I went to (two days ago) was preceded by Liturgy (but not by Matins). Then again it was for a priest, which adds another half hour anyway. So, yeah, it was about three hours. But for us that's almost nothing.
[ 26. January 2015, 00:58: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kittyville
Shipmate
# 16106
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Posted
My father's funeral was held during the scheduled Friday morning mass, albeit more by accident (my sister was in charge of sorting it out, there was a locum priest in the parish at the time) than design. As I hadn't been to church regularly for nearly 20 years at that point, I found it very odd, but the congregation didn't seem to, so perhaps it goes on more in the RC church than I'd have thought, at least in weekday masses.
Posts: 291 | From: Sydney | Registered: Dec 2010
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
A half dozen years ago, we had a marriage as a part of the 10 am Sunday service (the main service, and it was a Choral Eucharist). She had been twice widowed and he once; she had turned 80 the Sunday before and he would turn 80 the following Sunday. It fitted in very well indeed, with the reception taking the place of the usual after-service morning tea. Their point was that they did not want a large and elaborate wedding and that the parish was their community.
I can see problems with having a funeral fitting in though.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I can't offer an in-service wedding or funeral, but we did have an unscheduled baptism once. The bishop had come to town for a confirmation service, when one of the confirmands suddenly said, "Is it OK if I haven't been baptized? Will it still take?" Our rector hastily baptized him, just before the confirmation.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I know of only one funeral held during the morning service which seemed weird to me at first, but was actually a wonderful service. The old lady concerned had been a faithful member for most of her life and the whole congregation wanted to be there to celebrate her life at the service which she so loyally attended. I'm not sure that it would be appropriate for many however.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I agree you can't really get away with it-- but I've actually fantasized about doing funerals during the regular service. There's too much cultural norms around doing funerals the way we do, but if I were "inventing" a culture from scratch, I'd plan on a monthly service of mourning at a regular scheduled date time (e.g. first Sunday of month). Planning the funeral can be so hard on families, it's just not something they do every day, and getting the word out and coordinating everyone's schedule can be challenging too. And often times if the deceased has been bedridden for sometime and is old enough that most of his/her friends have already died, the service can be so small it doesn' really give honor to the full life the person may have had. Whereas if we planned a single service of mourning once a month for everyone who happens to pass away that month, a lot of that could be done ahead of time. Music lined up, food for the reception, ushers, preacher, etc. You'd do some customization of course for the particular individuals who happened to pass away, but you've got the framework already in place to work from. If no one passes away that month, you could have a prayer/healing service instead-- or just a celebration of life and a bit of a feast.
But again, too many cultural norms working against it.
This would be awesome. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
One general difference between baptisms and weddings and funerals is the role of the congregation.
In baptism, especially of infants, the church will make promises, for example to uphold a life of worship and service to provide a fellowship to help nurture the faith of the child (and all children).
I've never seen similar promises from the congregation at weddings or funerals. There may be promises by the family and friends of the bride and groom, but nothing for a church to support the marriages of all couples in the congregation.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I agree you can't really get away with it-- but I've actually fantasized about doing funerals during the regular service. There's too much cultural norms around doing funerals the way we do, but if I were "inventing" a culture from scratch, I'd plan on a monthly service of mourning at a regular scheduled date time (e.g. first Sunday of month). Planning the funeral can be so hard on families, it's just not something they do every day, and getting the word out and coordinating everyone's schedule can be challenging too. And often times if the deceased has been bedridden for sometime and is old enough that most of his/her friends have already died, the service can be so small it doesn' really give honor to the full life the person may have had. Whereas if we planned a single service of mourning once a month for everyone who happens to pass away that month, a lot of that could be done ahead of time. Music lined up, food for the reception, ushers, preacher, etc. You'd do some customization of course for the particular individuals who happened to pass away, but you've got the framework already in place to work from. If no one passes away that month, you could have a prayer/healing service instead-- or just a celebration of life and a bit of a feast.
But again, too many cultural norms working against it.
This would be awesome.
It's unusual that I find myself disagreeing with Lamb Chopped, but I do here.
General experiences, including how I've felt, is that for the family, the bereaved, the funeral is fundamental to the whole process. Between when the person has died and the funeral, one feels in transition. The funeral, with the laying to rest, marks moving on to the next stage. Even with modern cold stores I really don't it's a good idea to expect every family to wait until a specific Sunday for the funeral. It wouldn't even apply to those who had died the Monday after the previous one, with a wait of 30 days. Because of the way the process goes, with coroners etc, it would include most of those who had died in the 10 days before the monthly funeral.
Also, one might be able to produce theological arguments in favour of families sharing funerals, but would most people tolerate it?
Or for that matter, if one did this for weddings, would couples be comfortable about sharing their wedding with other couples who are complete strangers?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
We had a baptism, after which the minister announced that the parents would be getting married immediately following the service, and everyone was invited to stay for it.
The parents wanted a low-key wedding, and had achieved it by inviting family and friends to the baptism, and then springing the wedding on them.
The family were regular attenders, and the congregation were thrilled to get to attend the wedding.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
(By way of further explanation re the above, the groom had been widowed young, with young children; and the congregation had mourned with him, then rejoiced with him when he met his second wife. So everyone was thrilled by the baptism / wedding during/after the normal service.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
The Ship of Fools Purgatory Hosts are proud to announce the removal of this thread to the sister board, Ecclesiantics.
We wish to congratulate the Ecclesiantics Hosts on their new arrival and wish them every success in watching over it as it grows.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
(By way of further explanation re the above, the groom had been widowed young, with young children; and the congregation had mourned with him, then rejoiced with him when he met his second wife. So everyone was thrilled by the baptism / wedding during/after the normal service.)
Still not quite clear! Were the children baptised those from his first marriage, or children he had with the lady who was to become his wife?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Does it actually matter?
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
It might do in more conservative Christian communities which hold to the idea that children should come after marriage rather than before ... although I realise that this view is increasingly not normative, even (perhaps) in church circles.
[ 26. January 2015, 11:21: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
It was the baby of the second marriage. The children of the first marriage had been baptised when they were babies.
The only people in the church who knew about the forthcoming wedding were the couple themselves, their children, the minister and the organist. The baptism/wedding guests and congregation knew nothing till the announcement following the baptism.
Cue much delight and general rejoicing!
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
At least once, at the end of a service we have done short marriage blessings for couples who have had a civil wedding (which is mandatory in France, there is no such thing as a legally binding church wedding) and for whom, for one of the spouses, Christian vows would not have made sense as they made no profession of being a Christian, whereas the other wanted a Christian aspect to their marriage.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
A half dozen years ago, we had a marriage as a part of the 10 am Sunday service (the main service, and it was a Choral Eucharist). She had been twice widowed and he once; she had turned 80 the Sunday before and he would turn 80 the following Sunday. It fitted in very well indeed, with the reception taking the place of the usual after-service morning tea. Their point was that they did not want a large and elaborate wedding and that the parish was their community.
I did exactly the same for a couple in similar circumstances in Wales about 20 year ago. It worked wonderfully.
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I've been to one wedding during the regular Sunday service (actually, it was the regular vigil Mass). The bride had originally wanted her and her groom to wear albs throughout, but I think her mother over-ruled her on that one. Bride and groom, dressed as is culturally normal here, did serve as greeters before the Mass, and took their place in the opening procession with the lectors (one of which was me), servers and clergy. They selected the readers, but the readings were the standard ones of the Sunday, as they would have to be.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
One general difference between baptisms and weddings and funerals is the role of the congregation.
In baptism, especially of infants, the church will make promises, for example to uphold a life of worship and service to provide a fellowship to help nurture the faith of the child (and all children).
I've never seen similar promises from the congregation at weddings or funerals. There may be promises by the family and friends of the bride and groom, but nothing for a church to support the marriages of all couples in the congregation.
From the U.S. Episcopal Book of Common Prayer marriage service:
quote:
The Celebrant then addresses the congregation, saying
Will all of you witnessing these promises do all in your
power to uphold these two persons in their marriage?
People We will.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
From the BUGB handbook "Gathering for Worship":
Affirmations of the Congregation.
The minister addresses the whole congregation.
Either:
Will all of you witnessing these vows
do everything in your power
to support A and C in their marriage?
We will.
Or:
Will all of you in this congregation,
by God’s grace,
do everything in your power
to uphold and care for these two in their life together.
As a sign that you will, please stand.
The congregation stands.
(To my total horror, I don't think I've ever asked people to do this ... I will, from now on!)
[ 26. January 2015, 14:12: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Peter Owen
Shipmate
# 134
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Posted
... and from the Church of England's Common Worship Marriage Service
The minister says to the congregation
Will you, the families and friends of N and N, support and uphold them in their marriage now and in the years to come?
All We will.
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Πετρος
Posts: 266 | From: overlooking Liverpool Bay | Registered: May 2001
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Yes, I know there are promises to support the couple in their marriage. But, my point was that a) they aren't specifically Christian (eg: nothing about regularly praying for them, providing an opportunity to experience Christian life and worship so that they continue to grow in faith), which would be part of the promises by the congregation at a baptism, b) are things that any friend or family member would agree to (probably related to a) and, c) don't make any commitments for anything that the church should do (unlike baptism, where the church is committing itself to being there for the next decade or more as the children grow, to provide a Sunday School or other provision to teach the children about the faith, etc).
So, for baptism because there are promises made by the church, and it's a welcoming of someone into the church, it makes a lot of sense for the regular congregation to be present, and during a regular service is the simplest way of doing that.
Weddings are not welcoming anyone into the church, and the promises that may be made are made by friends and family rather than the church. Thus, there seems to be less reason for the wedding to be conducted during a regular service, because there's no real reason for the regular congregation to be present (weddings where the bride and/or groom are regular attenders at the church are slightly different, but it could be simply that their friends include the regular congregation).
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Peter Owen:
... and from the Church of England's Common Worship Marriage Service
The minister says to the congregation
Will you, the families and friends of N and N, support and uphold them in their marriage now and in the years to come?
All We will.
We do something similar in Presbyterian wedding services.
Similarly, a funeral will include some exhortation (usually through the prayers) to support and care for the family during their time of mourning.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
CW has something very similar - all CoE weddings I've attended has used it, with the congregation affirming 'with the help of God, we will [support the couple]'.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
So, for baptism because there are promises made by the church, and it's a welcoming of someone into the church, it makes a lot of sense for the regular congregation to be present, and during a regular service is the simplest way of doing that.
Weddings are not welcoming anyone into the church, and the promises that may be made are made by friends and family rather than the church. Thus, there seems to be less reason for the wedding to be conducted during a regular service, because there's no real reason for the regular congregation to be present.
Yes, I agree - in fact, I would venture to suggest that, if it was known that a wedding was to be conducted within a regular service, that would completely "skew" the service. Folk would simply be waiting for "the happy couple" to appear and not concentrate on their worship; also, all the preparations and decorations would distract folk from their worship.
The only exception is as in NE Quine's case, where no-one knew that he wedding was about to happen and the decorations were minimal or non-existent. I think that was rather nice!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
We had a wedding of an older couple who were very much part of the church, second marriage for both of them - they were able to have the service during the main part of the Sunday morning Eucharist. They already had many friends in the congregation so it was a chance for us all to be there and celebrate with them.
I've never seen a funeral happen in the same way, but when a member of the choir died, he had apparently requested a requiem mass, which turned out to be identical to our normal Eucharist. So, as far as the words are concerned, there would not need to be many changes. Perhaps the family could have a small, quiet funeral beforehand and then invite those who wish to stay and attend the following Mass.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
We had a wedding of an older couple who were very much part of the church, second marriage for both of them - they were able to have the service during the main part of the Sunday morning Eucharist. They already had many friends in the congregation so it was a chance for us all to be there and celebrate with them.
I wonder if the fact that this was an "older couple"/second weddings made it easier to fit into ordinary worship? Would the first wedding of a young couple have possibly generated more flummery and agitation?
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I've done a reaffirmation of vows and blessing of a repaired ring during the principal Sunday service but not an actual wedding.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Yes, I've done a reaffirmation of vows too.
But not the other bit (never been asked).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Would the first wedding of a young couple have possibly generated more flummery and agitation?
The "no fuss" wedding in the main Sunday service that I went to was of a young couple (mid-twenties).
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I quite like the idea of a wedding that takes place during a church service, especially for a couple who've been nurtured by their church, but it's certainly very uncommon in the UK.
These days the expectation is that any wedding will be as grand as the couple can afford to make it, and sharing your wedding with a regular church congregation on a regular Sunday wouldn't normally create that ambiance. Moreover, only a small proportion of church weddings involve couples who are churchgoers, so for most people that experience would feel like having a bunch of strangers at your wedding!
Many non-churchgoing baptismal parties already find it a bit of a strain to participate in a 'normal' church service, so it's unlikely that they'd want to do a similar thing for a wedding.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Arabella Purity Winterbottom
Trumpeting hope
# 3434
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Posted
Our wedding was during a service, after the sermon. Vows, blessings, then back to ordinary prayers to the end of the service. Big morning tea afterwards.
I have sung at one funeral during a service, an Evensong. It was a singular situation in that the gentleman had no family, and he had specifically requested a fauxbourdon setting of the evening canticles to be sung at his funeral. He had also been the verger at the Cathedral for a very long time. It was a lovely way to say goodbye to him.
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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal
Posts: 3702 | From: Aotearoa, New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2002
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Wm Dewy
Shipmate
# 16712
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Posted
My wife and I married each other at the principal Sunday morning Mass thirty-odd years ago. We were both converts to the little Anglo-Catholic parish and I was somewhat fearful that our families would be quite lost during the liturgy. It was lovely all around. The Sunday regulars were very nice hosts for our family and friends, handing them prayerbooks and hymnals open to the right pages.
When our banns were read out the rector said to the parish family that they were not only invited but expected, so it didn't take many church folk by surprise.
We were in our early twenties. Looking back, I wouldn't change a thing.
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"And harmoniums and barrel - organs be miserable--what shall I call 'em ? - miserable machines for such a divine thing as music!"
Posts: 216 | From: Indiana USA | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
Except in the most unusual circumstances I can't easily imagine funerals and weddings, as they're usually performed, being taken during the normal Sunday service. I suppose because weddings and funerals aren't 'normal Sunday services' to begin with. I can see how funeral rites and marriage vows could be incorporated in an unusual Sunday service with the regular congregation prepared and willing to participate in such a hybrid creation - and as I say under certain circumstances it could even be appropriate.
But as I see it, if there's a wedding going on during the main Sunday service, then I must be at a wedding. And ditto for a funeral.
Of course, a main Sunday service might, atypically, celebrate or commemorate certain church community events on a specific Sunday, either as a one-off or an occasional thing: eg, a church anniversary, a significant bereavement. But two single out individuals in the way that funerals and weddings are destined to do, just seems to make the 'main' Sunday worship about not God and all of us, but God and those individuals, with us maybe thrown in.
The main Sunday act of worship is for 'Everyman' to worship God after the style of that particular church tradition. Weddings and funerals are particular liturgies designed to achieve those particular events. Not saying never the twain shall meet, just that it would have go be blindingly obviously the right thing to do.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
I've done a reaffirmation of vows and blessing of a repaired ring during the principal Sunday service but not an actual wedding.
I've seen an affirmation of vows for a 25th wedding anniversary within a service, but never more than that. It is an interesting question that I have never thought of before...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
[To] single out individuals in the way that funerals and weddings are destined to do, just seems to make the 'main' Sunday worship about not God and all of us, but God and those individuals, with us maybe thrown in.
The main Sunday act of worship is for 'Everyman' to worship God after the style of that particular church tradition. Weddings and funerals are particular liturgies designed to achieve those particular events.
Yet it could be said that church services sometimes do single out individuals, e.g. if there's an 'important' guest preacher, or a visiting mission partner or aid worker who gives a talk about their work as part of the regular service. They don't take God's place, but they clearly receive a degree of extra attention, because their presence and/or participation is out of the norm.
I understand that infant baptisms were once undertaken separately from the Sunday service, but not now. In fact, it's interesting to consider that adult baptisms are frequently held during Sunday church services (although perhaps this depends on the denomination). Both baptisms and weddings (and funerals) require us to focus on specific individuals, so it's not obviously apparent why a wedding is considered to be so significantly different and 'special' that it needs to be hived off and celebrated on its own.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Well, I can't improve upon the Prayer Book's explanation of why 'Baptism should not be administered but upon Sundays, and other Holy-days, when the most number of people come together: as well for that the Congregation there present may testify the receiving of them that be newly baptized, into the number of Christ’s Church; as also because in the Baptism [of Infants] every man present may be put in remembrance of his own profession made to God in his Baptism.'
The dynamic of marriage is a bit different. I certainly do think that declaring your vows before your friends and neighbours makes a powerful statement, but the union that is happening is just between the couple. Nice, and socially powerful, to have your friends and neighbours there, but it makes no theological point.
[ 26. January 2015, 20:40: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
I first heard of a wedding during SUnday service some 25 years ago. I wasn't there but my informant was. It was in a CHurch of Scotland parish in Edinburgh.
Bride and groom (ages unknown but not middle-aged or elderly) dressed as usual on a SUnday slipped into a couple of front pews at the beginning of the service. At the appointed place in the service, they stepped forward with their supporters, the marriage took place, and they returned to their pew. I never heard how they got out at the end, but no doubt they led the way out the centre aisle (if there was one) as I don't suppose there was a vested choir at the front to lead the way instead.
I think the thing is whether or not the marriage is going to conform to certain norms of what marriage services must be -- some (many?) people are willing to work outside the envelope, as they say, if encouraged or allowed to do so.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The dynamic of marriage [from baptism] is a bit different. I certainly do think that declaring your vows before your friends and neighbours makes a powerful statement, but the union that is happening is just between the couple. Nice, and socially powerful, to have your friends and neighbours there, but it makes no theological point.
The dynamic is very different, obviously.
It's food for thought that the inclusion of a baptism in the worship service shows that baptism is a more theologically serious event, whereas a separate, exclusive wedding service ceremony shows that a wedding is a more socially serious one. The practical outcome seems to be that the wedding ceremony benefits rather than the baptism. The church realises this, and charges for weddings but not for baptisms....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I can imagine a situation where this might all work, easily and well.
If you had a small community (village, intentional community, remote outpost of some sort). one that was fairly tightly knit, and preferred a simple sort of service, then the service might be a coming together of everyone, as well as a religious occasion. So it might work well to slip in a very short, simple wedding or funeral, of the "we love(d) so-and-so, and we wish them well, and ask God's blessing on them" sort. That might actually be kind of nice. Possibly with a potluck afterwards.
Re joint wedding of multiple couples who are strangers to each other: the Unification Church (AKA Rev. Moon and co.) marries hordes of couples all at once. Not something I support, and it's not a Christian church; but there is precedent.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
... Re joint wedding of multiple couples who are strangers to each other: the Unification Church (AKA Rev. Moon and co.) marries hordes of couples all at once. Not something I support, and it's not a Christian church; but there is precedent.
Not a good one.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
The dynamic of marriage [from baptism] is a bit different. I certainly do think that declaring your vows before your friends and neighbours makes a powerful statement, but the union that is happening is just between the couple. Nice, and socially powerful, to have your friends and neighbours there, but it makes no theological point.
The dynamic is very different, obviously.
It's food for thought that the inclusion of a baptism in the worship service shows that baptism is a more theologically serious event, whereas a separate, exclusive wedding service ceremony shows that a wedding is a more socially serious one. The practical outcome seems to be that the wedding ceremony benefits rather than the baptism. The church realises this, and charges for weddings but not for baptisms....
I'd suggest- I don't know- that the reason the Church doesn't charge for baptism is that baptism conveys a special grace from God, or indeed regeneration, and so to charge for it would be simony. The marriage ceremony conveys no such special grace and in most traditions (AFAIK) has never been seen as necessary to in order to contract a valid marriage because the parties themselves are the ministers of the marriage (although a ceremony may well be necessary in order to make the marriage licit- but that is a matter of church and/or secular law rather than of theology).
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I thought most traditional churches don't charge actual "fees" for weddings or funerals - but just have suggested donations, and if you don't pay the donation, you are put at the very end of the line of people waiting for their ceremony - and whatever ceremony you get will be bones bare. Plus you will be glared at with a guilt-inducing stare at every second you spend in the church ![[Smile]](smile.gif) . Having set fees for any church service seems terribly Las Vegas. ESPECIALLY if the family is willing to have their wedding or funeral during the principal Sunday worship service with the congregation present, which is what this thread is all about.
I think the fact that so many families feel uncomfortable having their weddings, funerals, or even baptisms (and you could add first communions and confirmations, sadly) separate from the main worship service is that our congregations are too big and, even if they are not big, are not socially cohesive enough. A congregation should be a family -so by the time a couple gets married or someone passes away, the congregation should be the natural group of people who would attend their wedding or funeral, in addition to whatever family or friends also come.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Albertus
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# 13356
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Posted
Set fees for weddings are standard in the CofE and CinW. I'd rather they weren't, but they are, and are set nationally for each church.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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