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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ashing - thumb or finger?
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I use my thumb but I'm not aware of any rubric directing how it ought to be done!
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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St Everild
Shipmate
# 3626
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Posted
I have absolutely no idea whether there is a "correct" way of doing this...but I used the index finger on my right hand yesterday. And in previous years I have used the thumb on my right hand...
Both ways gave me a very grubby fingernail...
Posts: 1782 | From: Bethnei | Registered: Dec 2002
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I didn't notice last night whether our priest used her thumb or finger. I did notice she'd done her nails in purple for Lent.
Well done her!
I had my nails done in gold for Christmas a couple of years ago. And very fetching it looked, I thought. (Although I don't think many members of the congregation had come across a bloke with gold finger nails before)
I use my thumb. It just seems awkward to use a finger.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
We had both. Celebrant was ashing with thumb and deacon with forefinger....
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I came to Jesus and I found in him my star, my sun.
And in that light of life I'll walk 'til travelling days are done
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
The Ash Wednesday liturgy of the Scottish Episcopal Church specifies, after the blessing of the ashes:
quote:
The celebrant then receives the imposition of ashes from another priest if one is present, otherwise the celebrant
imposes ashes on himself. After this the people come forward and kneel at the Altar rails. Holding the vessel
containing the ashes in his left hand, the priest dips the thumb of his right hand into the ashes and signs the forehead
of each in turn with the sign of the Cross saying...
So, in the SEC at least, using a finger would be badwrong and may possibly make St. Columba cry.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I didn't notice last night whether our priest used her thumb or finger. I did notice she'd done her nails in purple for Lent.
Well done her!
I had my nails done in gold for Christmas a couple of years ago. And very fetching it looked, I thought. (Although I don't think many members of the congregation had come across a bloke with gold finger nails before)
I use my thumb. It just seems awkward to use a finger.
Wait...is there anyone who takes this all the way and has green nail polish (a la Sally Bowles) for Sundays after Epiphany/Pentecost (Ordinary Time) and perhaps, if they are traditional catholics, even black nail polish for Good Friday? ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
I used my thumb to sign Father (and very boldly and prominently did I do it, too, to the edification of the faithful), but he ashed everybody else, and, IIRC, used his left thumb (he is left-handed)......
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
Those SEC rubrics are very precise compared with our RC ones, which just say:
quote:
Then the Priest places ashes on the head of all those present who come to him, and says to each one...
I've never heard of a priest ashing himself. When ashing alone, I'm used to having a laic do it.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
I find the thumb is easier to control, not to mention to clean!
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Al Eluia:
I didn't notice last night whether our priest used her thumb or finger. I did notice she'd done her nails in purple for Lent.
Well done her!
I had my nails done in gold for Christmas a couple of years ago. And very fetching it looked, I thought. (Although I don't think many members of the congregation had come across a bloke with gold finger nails before)
I use my thumb. It just seems awkward to use a finger.
Wait...is there anyone who takes this all the way and has green nail polish (a la Sally Bowles) for Sundays after Epiphany/Pentecost (Ordinary Time) and perhaps, if they are traditional catholics, even black nail polish for Good Friday?
I considered it. But the congregation was already starting to look at me a bit funny. (That's partly why I had to move to another part of the planet...)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
That is why God created us created with that "opposable thumb"...
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.
What - without a mirror??
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She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.
Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
I considered it. But the congregation was already starting to look at me a bit funny. (That's partly why I had to move to another part of the planet...)
You could always tell them that that's how they do things back where you came from - though the might not believe you.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.
And said 'Remember, thou art dust and to dust shalt thou return' to himself?
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Thumb always. Although we have had female priests, I don't remember being ashed by one (coincidence not intent). Can't say I've looked that closely at the hands of the men, but have never noticed nail varnish, or rings for that matter. Probably because, if I looked that closely while being ashed, I'd go cross-eyed.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
(Alright, now I have an image of someone using the middle finger. Probably not a good idea.)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.
In the absence of any other priests, that's what one is supposed to do according to the rubrics of the American Missal.
So that's what I did as well.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Those SEC rubrics are very precise compared with our RC ones
Funny how these things work out. I was just reading on Wikipedia that in the United Methodist Church, ashes are to be imposed only on the baptized.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Knopwood:
quote:
Originally posted by Adam.:
Those SEC rubrics are very precise compared with our RC ones
Funny how these things work out. I was just reading on Wikipedia that in the United Methodist Church, ashes are to be imposed only on the baptized.
I wonder if there is an inverse relationship between the specificity of the rubrics and the rigour with which they are enforced.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Circuit Rider
Ship's Itinerant
# 13088
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Posted
Used my right thumb. Had to use my other fingers to push back hair in some cases so that I could ash forehead.
Posts: 715 | From: Somewhere in the Heart of Dixie | Registered: Oct 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
Where was this thread earlier in the week? I'm new to this tradition, so found myself Wednesday holding the small cup of ashes asking myself precisely that question! Wish I'd thought to check the ever-helpful Ship for answers prior...
...agreed on the grubby fingernail...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Circuit Rider: Had to use my other fingers to push back hair in some cases so that I could ash forehead.
Is the priest supposed to do that? I have rather long hair, and the few times I was ashed I pushed it back myself.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.
And said 'Remember, thou art dust and to dust shalt thou return' to himself?
Yes, indeed. Just like when he communicates, he says "The Body of Christ" to himself.
[ 21. February 2015, 03:42: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
(Alright, now I have an image of someone using the middle finger. Probably not a good idea.)
Potentially a penitential image though. Sort of a liturgical prostate check.
What a seminal thought.
A phrase to frighten people with. Do you feel a sermon coming on?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
This sounds suitably arcane for this board!
Whenever I have imposed ashes, I have done so with my thumb.
Last night, our recently priested curate used one of her fingers.
It made me think of 'the finger of God' writing in Belshazzar's feast.
Is there a 'correct' way to impose the ashes?
The custom in many anglophone countries of forming a visible cross on the forehead is just that - a popular custom. It is not presupposed by the rubrics, as far as I am aware. Therefore, if it is to be done, it is done according to whatever method is customary, I suppose.
If there's to be a discussion of what is "correct", then the point of the action is the imposition of the ashes: not the displaying of the ashes. In a number of places, it is still the custom to sprinkle the ashes on the top of the penitent's head.
A quick Google image search reveals woodcuts from missals depicting this, as well as recent popes receiving the ashes on this way.
Personally, I prefer this to a deliberately visible mark, and certainly to the adding of moisture to the ash to ensure that the mark lasts.
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I ashed myself first, saying (so that the others could hear) "I am dust, and to dust I shall return." Then I ashed everyone else, baptized and unbaptized alike, using my right thumb. The UM rubric says to ash only the baptized, but I've never seen it enforced, not ever. But in effect for me it was only the baptized, since that's who turned up for the services.
I then forgot I had ashed myself, and got oily ashes all over the collar of my freshly laundered and carefully ironed surplice when I took it off. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
[ 23. February 2015, 20:07: Message edited by: Barefoot Friar ]
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
We had an ecumenical ashing here, and I noted that my Colleague Of A Non-Episcopal Denomination™ ashed with the words "remember that you are but dust / and to dust you shall return / recall that grace triumphs over doubt" or somesuch. Basically it made me think that I'd been smacked on the shoelace with a wet thistle-seed and invited to sniff roses in the name of Gaia.
My mob got some traditional "turn away from sin and be faithful to Christ."
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Joan_of_Quark
Anchoress of St Expedite
# 9887
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Posted
What happens if a church/denomination practises sprinkling ashes on the head but also expects women to wear hats or veils?
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"I want to be an artist when I grow up." "Well you can't do both!"
further quarkiness
Posts: 1025 | From: The Book Depository | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
What happens if a church/denomination practises sprinkling ashes on the head but also expects women to wear hats or veils?
I imagine the same as when women are baptised or tonsured: the head covering is removed for the action and replaced afterwards.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
Personally, I prefer this to a deliberately visible mark, and certainly to the adding of moisture to the ash to ensure that the mark lasts.
Or does this begin to resemble the wearing of a phylactery? You know: Matt 6:1 and all that. I wrestle with this question every year, and I note our bishop (who presided at my [his] pad this year) did in his homily, too.
It's certainly worth thinking about.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I've heard others say that if we all ash together and then wipe it away as we leave (or shortly thereafter), we're not in danger of crossing Jesus' words on this. The thinking is that it's a symbol in which we all participate, no one being any better or any worse than anyone else who also participates. Then if we remove the mark after the service as we go back out into the world no one knows that we're fasting.
That's about how I feel about it, but I'm open to the idea of sprinkling ash on the head instead.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
We had an ecumenical ashing here, and I noted that my Colleague Of A Non-Episcopal Denomination™ ashed with the words "remember that you are but dust / and to dust you shall return / recall that grace triumphs over doubt" or somesuch. Basically it made me think that I'd been smacked on the shoelace with a wet thistle-seed and invited to sniff roses in the name of Gaia.
My mob got some traditional "turn away from sin and be faithful to Christ."
I thought it was the other way round - 'Remember' being the trad. words and 'repent' being fairly new.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Our (TEC) priest used his right thumb, and also self-ashed, at the 0-dark-thirty service yesterday morning.
And said 'Remember, thou art dust and to dust shalt thou return' to himself?
Yes, indeed. Just like when he communicates, he says "The Body of Christ" to himself.
Or "The Body of Christ, which was given for me, preserve my body and soul unto everlasting life."
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Slightly tangential, but does anybody know if ashes are given in any way in the diocese of Milan, since the Ambrosian rite does not observe Ash Wednesday and begins Lent on the first Sunday?
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Ecclesiastical Flip-flop
Shipmate
# 10745
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Slightly tangential, but does anybody know if ashes are given in any way in the diocese of Milan, since the Ambrosian rite does not observe Ash Wednesday and begins Lent on the first Sunday?
I have googled la Cattedrale di Milano - so far without success. Where's Forthview? He may be your man!
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Joyeuses Pâques! Frohe Ostern! Buona Pasqua! ¡Felices Pascuas! Happy Easter!
Posts: 1946 | From: Surrey UK | Registered: Dec 2005
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Slightly tangential, but does anybody know if ashes are given in any way in the diocese of Milan, since the Ambrosian rite does not observe Ash Wednesday and begins Lent on the first Sunday?
I'm fairly sure it doesn't occur at any point in the Ambrosian Rite. However, I believe there are a number of churches in the diocese that follow other rites - IIRC, I was told about a Dominican use church, which presumably would keep Ash Wednesday, as their rite follows the Roman Calendar in this regard.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Slightly tangential, but does anybody know if ashes are given in any way in the diocese of Milan, since the Ambrosian rite does not observe Ash Wednesday and begins Lent on the first Sunday?
I'm fairly sure it doesn't occur at any point in the Ambrosian Rite. However, I believe there are a number of churches in the diocese that follow other rites - IIRC, I was told about a Dominican use church, which presumably would keep Ash Wednesday, as their rite follows the Roman Calendar in this regard.
According to the Italian Wiki here..., the ashing occurs on the first Sunday of Lent, or preferably the Monday after. The Lenten disciplines then begin on the following Friday, oddly ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Interesting. Interesting also is the fact that Mass is not celebrated on any Friday in Lent. Would that also apply to any feast day (e.g. Annunciation) that fell on a Lenten Friday, or to a Requiem or similar?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Interesting. Interesting also is the fact that Mass is not celebrated on any Friday in Lent. Would that also apply to any feast day (e.g. Annunciation) that fell on a Lenten Friday, or to a Requiem or similar?
Particularly interesting as it shows that some curtailment of the celebration of the Eucharist on the weekdays of Lent isn't just a Byzantine peculiarity. I've never explored other rites on this point before.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Going back to the OP and then tangenting slightly, does anyone know anything about the recent history of ashing. Leo, I suspect you might know more about this.
Ashing has become almost universal these days and seems to have become popular and asked for. It's in one of the Common Worship books though it is optional. That, though, doesn't give the answer to Leo's question because it doesn't give detailed instructions about how it is to be done. But I don't recall it until about 20-25 years ago. Normal practice before then was simply to mark Ash Wednesday with a Communion Service, often in the evening for the benefit of those at work.
Have Catholics of the Roman variety always had this, or did it come in with Vatican II? Did any Anglo-Catholics have it, and if so what was it's legal status?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Going back to the OP and then tangenting slightly, does anyone know anything about the recent history of ashing. Leo, I suspect you might know more about this.
Ashing has become almost universal these days and seems to have become popular and asked for. It's in one of the Common Worship books though it is optional. That, though, doesn't give the answer to Leo's question because it doesn't give detailed instructions about how it is to be done. But I don't recall it until about 20-25 years ago. Normal practice before then was simply to mark Ash Wednesday with a Communion Service, often in the evening for the benefit of those at work.
Have Catholics of the Roman variety always had this, or did it come in with Vatican II? Did any Anglo-Catholics have it, and if so what was it's legal status?
I don't know much about RC practice but my C of E experience of about 50 years chimes in with yours. My 'Prayer Book catholic' church in the 1960s merely had a Sung Eucharist on Ash Wednesday - no ashing.
Ashing seemed to be the preserve of 'very high' churches and I first experienced it in 1969 at a 6.30 am High mass in Christ the Savior Ealing.
Now some evangelicals do it and there is a rite for it in the Methodist book.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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