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Source: (consider it) Thread: Anglican Realignment
Cameron PM
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A parish not too far from me has offered me a position for organist, or if you prefer the truth, I begged, at which I thought was your run of the mill CofE/Anglican church. I met the vicar (or pastor as he prefers) and we had a chat at Starbucks of all places, and I find out he's a member of a group that considers itself a "submerging province" of the Anglican Communion.

I also found out that this submerging province is a part of the "Anglican realignment movement" that I'm very unfamiliar with. Can someone please help me along here? I've googled and goggled but I'd like some personal input on the matter.

Thank you, in advance.

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Your call.

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Oscar the Grouch

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Welllll....

The fact that he wants to be called the pastor should set off enough alarm bells.

I have never heard of a submerging province. From the term realignment, I'm guessing that he's connecting with Gafcon or whatever they're calling themselves this week. So that would be Sidney Anglicans and the Nigerian and Kenyan homophobes.

As far as I am concerned, file under "do not touch with a very long bargepole".

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Palimpsest
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I know nothing about this group and not much about Anglicans. But what a friend whe have in Google. This web site on The submerging church may be related. The site talks about evil gay tolerant pastors and disses Rick Warren for talking about God as The compassionate and merciful one which apparently is an Islamic formulation that doesn't apply to their version of the Christian God.
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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Welllll....

The fact that he wants to be called the pastor should set off enough alarm bells.

I have never heard of a submerging province. From the term realignment, I'm guessing that he's connecting with Gafcon or whatever they're calling themselves this week. So that would be Sidney Anglicans and the Nigerian and Kenyan homophobes.

As far as I am concerned, file under "do not touch with a very long bargepole".

Having read some of the link Palimpsest provided (and I need a drink having done so), that's nothing to do with Sydney Anglicanism - nor, I suspect Anglicanism in either Uganda or Nigeria. In fact, it has nothing to do with any of the streams of Anglican thought. It has a lot in common with the link given on one of the DH threads to a very right wing US group.

Like Oscar the Grouch, I'd be running away from this man as fast as I could.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Cenobite
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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I know nothing about this group and not much about Anglicans. But what a friend whe have in Google. This web site on The submerging church may be related. The site talks about evil gay tolerant pastors and disses Rick Warren for talking about God as The compassionate and merciful one which apparently is an Islamic formulation that doesn't apply to their version of the Christian God.

This site makes me want to write a book, so that I can get on their list of recommended authors not to read, alongside the likes of St. Ignatius Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila...

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Cenobite: means "Common Life"; cenobites lived in community, serving one another and the rest of humanity.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Cenobite:
]This site makes me want to write a book, so that I can get on their list of recommended authors not to read, alongside the likes of St. Ignatius Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila...

I suspect that site is not related to the topic of the original post at all - it looks more like a site reacting to the 'emerging' church - which makes sense of the name.

This is further attested to by the other stuff on their front page - Rob Bell, The Shack etc etc

[ 30. August 2014, 09:28: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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balaam

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All the references I can find for submerged in a Church of England (and in particular Church in Wales) context is to do with those churches that do not accept the ordination of women.

Retired Bishop David Thomas used the term submerged to refer for those who don't accept women's ordination being swamped by those who do. Bishop Thomas was an outspoken opponent of women's ordination.

It looks like we have a difference in the meaning depending which side of the pond you are on.

Hopefully no horses will drown mid-Atlantic.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Oscar the Grouch wrote:
quote:
The fact that he wants to be called the pastor should set off enough alarm bells.

I have never heard of a submerging province. From the term realignment, I'm guessing that he's connecting with Gafcon or whatever they're calling themselves this week.

On balance you are probably right.

Though it's worth flagging up that the use of "pastor" is not completely unheard of in catholic parishes. Rare, but I've seen it a couple of times. And the use of alternative episcopal oversight ("flying bishops") within CofE structures is sometimes regarded as part of this Anglican realignment, leads me to ask if this parish may be involved in that.

Though as I say, I think your original suggestion the most likely.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Martin60
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Reactionaries.

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Love wins

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balaam

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I think the best you can do is to ask the self styled pastor what he means by submerging.

Then it is up to you whether you wish to be associated with that.

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Reactionaries.

You could be right.

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Martin60
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No question balaam. The jargon, the evasiveness. People retreating from the [post-]modern world to golden age fearful legalism.

Nasrani too

[ 30. August 2014, 10:24: Message edited by: Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard ]

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Love wins

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Baptist Trainfan
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Judging from what appears to be the location of the original poster, might Piglet be able to shed any light?
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balaam

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Even taking Canada into consideration I think it is still more likely to be an ordination of women issue, and I am aware how long Canada has had female priests. I don't think it is likely to be the US fundamentalists this time.

It is still reactionary, but a different kind of reactionary to that which Martin PCn&SB is supposing.

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Offeiriad

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quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
This web site on The submerging church may be related.

Ignatius Loyola is on their list of dodgy modern authors. Caramba! I think I need to lie down......
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Augustine the Aleut
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Perhaps he meant "emerging church?" Pastor is pretty frequent in RC churches here (Canada) in the Latin dioceses, although it tends to be a party colours indication term in Anglican circles. Perhaps you could find out who the bishop is??
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dj_ordinaire
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Wow, their banned authors list is pretty comprehensive. Anything which categorises Pope Benedict XVI and Marcus Borg as fellow-heretics is in serious fruitcake territory.

(One wonders which of those gentlemen would be more annoyed at being bracketed together!)

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Flinging wide the gates...

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L'organist
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As said above, I'd give it a wide berth. IME any cleric trying to recruit an organist is usually more concerned about the belief of the organist, not themselves, and is anxious also to check on their musical credentials.

Leaping straight into this kind of exotica would sound all of my alarm bells.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Martin60
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I'm sure you're right balaam. I'm right for the wrong reason. But I'm still right. They are conservative, fundamentalist, seekers after the faith once delivered, literalists, illiberal. Me: I'm Phlebas.

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Love wins

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I'm sure you're right balaam. I'm right for the wrong reason. But I'm still right. They are conservative, fundamentalist, seekers after the faith once delivered, literalists, illiberal. Me: I'm Phlebas.

I don't know, Martin. I'm here neither to bury them nor praise them - just to locate them on a mental map of sorts.

I imagine - but don't know - that they would be conservative in some ways. I imagine they would be seekers after the truth once delivered, or at least aspire to doing that. I doubt they are literalists or fundamentalists, at least any more than any one here is. As to being illiberal - well - as there is an undercurrent of damnation to some posts, what can I say? Maybe we should stop making windows into our own souls. People might look in.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Enoch
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If he calls himself 'pastor' he's very unlikely to be conventionally FiF.

Somewhere in south London there's an evangelical/low church parish that's out of kilter with the rest of the CofE. There was a row a few years ago because it appointed a vicar or a curate who came from either South Africa or Australia whom the local diocese didn't accept as pukka. However, I don't know anything more about it. I wonder if your man is something to do with them or similar.

As for this 'Submerging Church' and its website, they look weird. Even though a lot of the names on those three lists are people I've never heard of - and I suspect most of the rest of us have never heard of either - one suspects that the only reason why any serious writer one respects isn't on the list is that in his turn, Chris Lawson - whoever he is - has never heard of him or her.

What sort of a nutter has managed to throw out Aquinas, Thomas à Kempis, Walter Hilton, the entire Desert Fathers, Esther de Waal, St Ignatius, N. T. Wright, Philip Yancey and William Law. What have they got in common? And why is Pope Benedict on his interdict but not John Paul II, Francis or Pius XII?

I think it's only fair give this pastor the benefit of the doubt, and assume he's nothing to do with them unless it turns out otherwise. He's probably not heard of them either. I'd say that being linked to them is not compatible with being vicar of a CofE parish.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If he calls himself 'pastor' he's very unlikely to be conventionally FiF.

Somewhere in south London there's an evangelical/low church parish that's out of kilter with the rest of the CofE. There was a row a few years ago because it appointed a vicar or a curate who came from either South Africa or Australia whom the local diocese didn't accept as pukka. However, I don't know anything more about it. I wonder if your man is something to do with them or similar.

As for this 'Submerging Church' and its website, they look weird. Even though a lot of the names on those three lists are people I've never heard of - and I suspect most of the rest of us have never heard of either - one suspects that the only reason why any serious writer one respects isn't on the list is that in his turn, Chris Lawson - whoever he is - has never heard of him or her.

What sort of a nutter has managed to throw out Aquinas, Thomas à Kempis, Walter Hilton, the entire Desert Fathers, Esther de Waal, St Ignatius, N. T. Wright, Philip Yancey and William Law. What have they got in common? And why is Pope Benedict on his interdict but not John Paul II, Francis or Pius XII?

I think it's only fair give this pastor the benefit of the doubt, and assume he's nothing to do with them unless it turns out otherwise. He's probably not heard of them either. I'd say that being linked to them is not compatible with being vicar of a CofE parish.

Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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itsarumdo
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looks like a good reading list to me

Interesting that Yoga is generically forbidden, but the list is apparently based on the bible. 11th commandment? Thou shalt not practice Yoga.

I had a debate with a similar Christian some years ago, and the bottom line was that if it was not a scientifically proven form of medicine, then it was Black Majic. I'm slightly worried that the scientific secularists and the submerged church (et al) share much the same beliefs re the human body. [Roll Eyes]

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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron

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Angloid
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The fact that the pastor wanted to meet in Starbucks should be enough to ring alarm bells.
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.

Sorry. I had not picked that up. It isn't immediately ascertainable. Cameron PM's 'From' reads like Gaelic and the specific reference to CofE caused me to assume the question related to England.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Alex Cockell

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I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)
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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If he calls himself 'pastor' he's very unlikely to be conventionally FiF.

Agreed.

From the sparse information, my guess is a ConEvo minister (mustn't call them priests, as that's naughty), who probably hero-worships the Jensens. If I want to plug into my deep reservoir of cynical prejudice, I would guess that he never wears robes and probably not dog collars. I would also suspect that he has some (many?) fixed views on such matters as hymnody and music in church services - so any one looking to become church organist would need to be very careful that they could live with such views. Alternatively, they could follow my earlier advice.... [Biased]

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)

Who?

Never heard of the schmuck.

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)

With horror.

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Palimpsest
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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
I think the best you can do is to ask the self styled pastor what he means by submerging.

Then it is up to you whether you wish to be associated with that.

Sounds like a job for the Mystery Worshipper. [Smile]
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)

Who?

Never heard of the schmuck.

Don't worry. I've never heard of him either.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.

Sorry. I had not picked that up. It isn't immediately ascertainable. Cameron PM's 'From' reads like Gaelic and the specific reference to CofE caused me to assume the question related to England.
There's a Gaelic-speaking population in Canada, though I agree it isn't obvious.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Cameron PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.

Sorry. I had not picked that up. It isn't immediately ascertainable. Cameron PM's 'From' reads like Gaelic and the specific reference to CofE caused me to assume the question related to England.
There's a Gaelic-speaking population in Canada, though I agree it isn't obvious.
Well, more specifically Newfoundland. see, Newfoundlanders are Newfoundlanders, not Canadian. My grandfather would roll in his grave should I call myself Canadian. Confederation occurred in 1949, under the most suspicious auspices that even now we know the vote was totally altered.

Common language in most places outside St John's, the capital, is typical "Church of England" instead of Anglican, and "pastor" is rarely used at least in the Catholic and Anglican Churches I've been. We follow the British and Irish titleage, depending on which part of the island you're in. Rarely do we follow any Canadian customs, the only exception is the capital city St John's, where it's just forced on us [Razz]

But anyway, politics aside, he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America" but this is a "missionary parish" so if that clears anything up, I hope it does indeed. They use the BCP only a 2011 revision, that seems to be entirely American.

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Your call.

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Cameron PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
If he calls himself 'pastor' he's very unlikely to be conventionally FiF.

Somewhere in south London there's an evangelical/low church parish that's out of kilter with the rest of the CofE. There was a row a few years ago because it appointed a vicar or a curate who came from either South Africa or Australia whom the local diocese didn't accept as pukka. However, I don't know anything more about it. I wonder if your man is something to do with them or similar.

As for this 'Submerging Church' and its website, they look weird. Even though a lot of the names on those three lists are people I've never heard of - and I suspect most of the rest of us have never heard of either - one suspects that the only reason why any serious writer one respects isn't on the list is that in his turn, Chris Lawson - whoever he is - has never heard of him or her.

What sort of a nutter has managed to throw out Aquinas, Thomas à Kempis, Walter Hilton, the entire Desert Fathers, Esther de Waal, St Ignatius, N. T. Wright, Philip Yancey and William Law. What have they got in common? And why is Pope Benedict on his interdict but not John Paul II, Francis or Pius XII?

I think it's only fair give this pastor the benefit of the doubt, and assume he's nothing to do with them unless it turns out otherwise. He's probably not heard of them either. I'd say that being linked to them is not compatible with being vicar of a CofE parish.

Their website does indeed use "submerging" but it must be a typo on their part. They seem to be pretty high Church to me. But "pastor" through me off for some reason!

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Your call.

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Carex
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quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:


...he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America"


The Anglican Church in North America is a splinter group that is not a member of the Anglican Communion (though it seems as though it would love to replace TEC in that role.) It has something over 100K members in the US and Canada.
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Alex Cockell

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)

With horror.
Curious to know why- conservative evangelical..
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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Enoch - the OP writer's location is given as Canada. I've interpreted the CofE reference - possibly wrongly - as trying to be helpful in locating churchmanship.

Sorry. I had not picked that up. It isn't immediately ascertainable. Cameron PM's 'From' reads like Gaelic and the specific reference to CofE caused me to assume the question related to England.
There's a Gaelic-speaking population in Canada, though I agree it isn't obvious.
Well, more specifically Newfoundland. see, Newfoundlanders are Newfoundlanders, not Canadian. My grandfather would roll in his grave should I call myself Canadian. Confederation occurred in 1949, under the most suspicious auspices that even now we know the vote was totally altered.

Common language in most places outside St John's, the capital, is typical "Church of England" instead of Anglican, and "pastor" is rarely used at least in the Catholic and Anglican Churches I've been. We follow the British and Irish titleage, depending on which part of the island you're in. Rarely do we follow any Canadian customs, the only exception is the capital city St John's, where it's just forced on us [Razz]

But anyway, politics aside, he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America" but this is a "missionary parish" so if that clears anything up, I hope it does indeed. They use the BCP only a 2011 revision, that seems to be entirely American.

Is Newfoundland part of Nova Scotia? I found out about the Gaelic-speaking population of Nova Scotia (and also its bard tradition) through Kate Beaton, an artist/webcomic creator from Halifax.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Gee D
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Most assuredly not part of Nova Scotia, and at a rough guess I'd say it's about 250 km away, across a rather stormy bay. Different history pre- and post-European, different climates (in Halifax it sometimes gets over 20, almost tropical by comparison) and different peoples.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Augustine the Aleut
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Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland. The wonderful Dictionary of Newfoundland English will give you hours of reading on the use of prepositions, as well as an extraordinary vocabulary.

As far as ACNA is concerned, I am well acquainted with it, and clerical formation is..... interesting.... Our shipmate might want to take the job, if only for material for an interesting chapter in their memoirs.

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Cameron PM
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Newfoundland varies from each community. Some have an accent identical to that of Dorset or Devon, because that's who it was settled by. Some have an accent identical to that of Derry or Dublin, and some identical to the Orkney Islands or maybe even Aberdeen. Some a mixture of them. Mine is more Irish, by my grandmother's family came from an English settlement so imagine an Irish accent, just less rhotic. A lot of Newfoundlanders carry(ied) British citizenship, especially those born before 1949 when we were our own Dominion under the provisional or representative governments, and many still call themselves British, mostly English, and/or Irish. Newfoundland had it's own dialect of the Irish language, of which very few now speak because we were told it was incorrect (they also said the same about our culture and accent) by the Canadian government who wanted us for our fish - then after taking it and allowing foreign fishing fleets in our waters - put us into a recession. But indeed, that's a different conversation for a completely different time. If anyone wants to talk about it, shoot me a PM, I think it's interesting.

But the ACNA...you think I should take that job? I'd like to - for the very reason you stated - an interesting chapter in my memoir. I'd only ever do it out of interest, and for a nice stable job to help me get through university. The salary is quite good, and if it does anything to help glorify God at all, then it's worth doing, however how much glory He'd receive is beyond me. I'm more interested in why they felt the need to modify the Book of Common Prayer with the ESV bible, as well as remove the "thee's, thou's" etc... You'd think a splinter Anglican group would do the opposite? Also does anyone know if they ordain women or what their beliefs are regarding the nature of the Eucharist and the role of the Blessed Virgin? Perhaps I didn't look far enough on their website but I couldn't find anything really.

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Your call.

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QuietMBR
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quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:

But anyway, politics aside, he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America" but this is a "missionary parish" so if that clears anything up, I hope it does indeed. They use the BCP only a 2011 revision, that seems to be entirely American.

Well, as someone who has experience with those in the ACNA, I'd say that MartinPC's assessment upthread is spot on.

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"My Jesus would never be accepted in my church...the blood and dirt on His feet might stain the carpets." Todd Agnew

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Cameron PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland. The wonderful Dictionary of Newfoundland English will give you hours of reading on the use of prepositions, as well as an extraordinary vocabulary.

As far as ACNA is concerned, I am well acquainted with it, and clerical formation is..... interesting.... Our shipmate might want to take the job, if only for material for an interesting chapter in their memoirs.

And what do you mean by "interesting"? I'm curious if it's anything like the regular training that Church of England/AC of C priest would have? Or is it something completely out there.

The "pastor" I spoke with went to something or some place called Nashotah House or Natoshah House or something or other what not?

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Your call.

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)

With horror.
Curious to know why- conservative evangelical..
I have to be careful here... as a lot of it kind of deals with several different Dead Horse issues.

I also don't want to annoy the hosts by posting ten billion links.

The short answer is that John MacArthur believes the Earth is six thousand years old, has called Roman Catholicism the "Kingdom of Satan," claims that psychology "is based on godless assumptions and evolutionary foundations," and "is no more a science than the atheistic evolutionary theory upon which it is based."

He has advised parents with gay children to "alienate" them, and to "isolate them; you don't have a meal with them; you separate yourself from them. You turn them over to Satan, as it were as scripture says."

His statements on the environment and climate change and such matters are basically nuts and disturbing:

"...biblical truth tells us the earth exists for man. That’s why God created it and that’s why He created it the way He created it. It is God’s responsibility to preserve it, not ours. Our responsibility is to exercise a good and reasonable stewardship which I think through the centuries man has done so that we can extract out of it everything that God has put into it for our benefit."

"The political agenda against business, against industry, against male-dominated enterprises born out of sometimes naturalism, sometimes atheism, sometimes I think even Feminism, that should never be a bandwagon that Christians get on."

And so on and so on and, well, just Google him. There's a lot of stuff out there.

quote:
Pastor John MacArthur, who before Election Day warned that the Democrats are an “anti-God party” that has “made the sins of Romans 1 their agenda,” delivered a post-election sermon in which he declared that President Obama himself is a judgment of God.
[brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
*snip* As far as ACNA is concerned, I am well acquainted with it, and clerical formation is..... interesting.... Our shipmate might want to take the job, if only for material for an interesting chapter in their memoirs.

And what do you mean by "interesting"? I'm curious if it's anything like the regular training that Church of England/AC of C priest would have? Or is it something completely out there.

The "pastor" I spoke with went to something or some place called Nashotah House or Natoshah House or something or other what not?

It is quite a hodgepodge. If your cleric has been at Nashotah, he is clearly in the first rank as far as training goes, as are those who went to the Trinity School of Ministry in Pennsylvania. A number of the ACCoC exiles have respectable MDivs from the more serious universities but many of the newbies have just been doing divinity light courses, some in the form of Anglican tracks at evangelical seminaries, and some in local formation. This latter group can be uneven and I think it safe to say that few of those in this category could construe their gospel or hold a sustained intelligent conversation about (the other) Augustine.
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Alex Cockell

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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I'm curious - how you you all view someone like John MacArthur? (Grace Ministries - Grace to You etc)

With horror.
Curious to know why- conservative evangelical..
I have to be careful here... as a lot of it kind of deals with several different Dead Horse issues.

I also don't want to annoy the hosts by posting ten billion links.

The short answer is that John MacArthur believes the Earth is six thousand years old, has called Roman Catholicism the "Kingdom of Satan," claims that psychology "is based on godless assumptions and evolutionary foundations," and "is no more a science than the atheistic evolutionary theory upon which it is based."

He has advised parents with gay children to "alienate" them, and to "isolate them; you don't have a meal with them; you separate yourself from them. You turn them over to Satan, as it were as scripture says."

His statements on the environment and climate change and such matters are basically nuts and disturbing:

"...biblical truth tells us the earth exists for man. That’s why God created it and that’s why He created it the way He created it. It is God’s responsibility to preserve it, not ours. Our responsibility is to exercise a good and reasonable stewardship which I think through the centuries man has done so that we can extract out of it everything that God has put into it for our benefit."

"The political agenda against business, against industry, against male-dominated enterprises born out of sometimes naturalism, sometimes atheism, sometimes I think even Feminism, that should never be a bandwagon that Christians get on."

And so on and so on and, well, just Google him. There's a lot of stuff out there.

quote:
Pastor John MacArthur, who before Election Day warned that the Democrats are an “anti-God party” that has “made the sins of Romans 1 their agenda,” delivered a post-election sermon in which he declared that President Obama himself is a judgment of God.
[brick wall] [brick wall] [brick wall]
Well - Cultural Marxism HAS failed - as can be seen in Rotherham...
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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Well - Cultural Marxism HAS failed - as can be seen in Rotherham...

I'm deeply out of sympathy with Marxism, but that notwithstanding, and horrible though the events in Rotherham have been, unless there's something I'm missing, that has a fair claim to be the non sequitur of the century.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Pomona
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Those that cry 'cultural Marxism!!!!!' understand neither culture nor Marxism.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Cameron PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
*snip* As far as ACNA is concerned, I am well acquainted with it, and clerical formation is..... interesting.... Our shipmate might want to take the job, if only for material for an interesting chapter in their memoirs.

And what do you mean by "interesting"? I'm curious if it's anything like the regular training that Church of England/AC of C priest would have? Or is it something completely out there.

The "pastor" I spoke with went to something or some place called Nashotah House or Natoshah House or something or other what not?

It is quite a hodgepodge. If your cleric has been at Nashotah, he is clearly in the first rank as far as training goes, as are those who went to the Trinity School of Ministry in Pennsylvania. A number of the ACCoC exiles have respectable MDivs from the more serious universities but many of the newbies have just been doing divinity light courses, some in the form of Anglican tracks at evangelical seminaries, and some in local formation. This latter group can be uneven and I think it safe to say that few of those in this category could construe their gospel or hold a sustained intelligent conversation about (the other) Augustine.
I see. I understand as well. I went to their Eucharist this morning, and I must say it was very well done. The vicar gave an in-depth sermon on the first book of Peter, and he elaborated the trust we are to place and God - and the "do we give or just take?" in regards to our relationship with God. He seems to be quite an intellectual man, and he also went to University and has a Masters in something.

His parishioners were extremely nice, and they were excited to have a new organist however I'm unsure if I have the job or no. I'll keep ye updated.

I found it almost identical to the run-of-the-mill Anglican parish, just with better music and a more willing participation, however that doesn't mean anything in regards to how valid or licit their teachings and entire movement is. They're the last thing from liberal, but they're not exactly anglo Catholic either, however the vestments appeared so.

I'm going to be meeting the "pastor" again for a cuppa, so I'll ask him some questions then about the beliefs of the ACNA. I'd like to point out that I won't be joining it, no, I'm happy where I am, but this is just for the job portion and my love of music. As you said, it'd be a good chapter in my memoir.

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Your call.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland.

Yep, though apparently there were about 50 in Eastern Ontario at the last census. Newfoundland Irish (similar to Munster dialect, if Wikipedia be believed) seems to have hobbled on till the early 20th century.

While ACNA itself is something of a rainbow coalition, almost all of the Canadian parishes are affiliated with the "Network", i.e. the Argentine mission to heterosexuals. (There is a single Reformed Episcopal church left in Hamilton and a few churches, mostly out west, are affiliated with the Canadian version of AMiA). Its first bishop was an Anglo-Catholic from Newfoundland. There are two ACNA parishes in Newfoundland: both are in town and both are affiliated with the Network. Bishop Harvey, their retired moderator is an honorary assistant at one.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Those that cry 'cultural Marxism!!!!!' understand neither culture nor Marxism.

Very true.

Cameron PM - keep us posted!

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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