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Source: (consider it) Thread: Anglican Realignment
Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland.

Yep, though apparently there were about 50 in Eastern Ontario at the last census. Newfoundland Irish (similar to Munster dialect, if Wikipedia be believed) seems to have hobbled on till the early 20th century.

While ACNA itself is something of a rainbow coalition, almost all of the Canadian parishes are affiliated with the "Network", i.e. the Argentine mission to heterosexuals. (There is a single Reformed Episcopal church left in Hamilton and a few churches, mostly out west, are affiliated with the Canadian version of AMiA). Its first bishop was an Anglo-Catholic from Newfoundland. There are two ACNA parishes in Newfoundland: both are in town and both are affiliated with the Network. Bishop Harvey, their retired moderator is an honorary assistant at one.

I shall henceforth think of ACNA as a rainbow coalition, thanks to LQ. Gaelically tangential, Mass was last said in Scots Gaelic at a requiem in Glengarry in 1993 (great-uncle of a former classmate) but I believe that there is still a retired minister of the PCC who can preach in the language. The Glengarry gaeltacht was extremely influential for many years and has taken two centuries to fade to an honourable end.
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Cameron PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Canada's teeny Gaelophone population is mainly on Cape Breton Island (once its own colony until 1820 and they're still a bit miffed about the union with Nova Scotia)-- perhaps there might be a dozen in Newfoundland.

Yep, though apparently there were about 50 in Eastern Ontario at the last census. Newfoundland Irish (similar to Munster dialect, if Wikipedia be believed) seems to have hobbled on till the early 20th century.

While ACNA itself is something of a rainbow coalition, almost all of the Canadian parishes are affiliated with the "Network", i.e. the Argentine mission to heterosexuals. (There is a single Reformed Episcopal church left in Hamilton and a few churches, mostly out west, are affiliated with the Canadian version of AMiA). Its first bishop was an Anglo-Catholic from Newfoundland. There are two ACNA parishes in Newfoundland: both are in town and both are affiliated with the Network. Bishop Harvey, their retired moderator is an honorary assistant at one.

I shall henceforth think of ACNA as a rainbow coalition, thanks to LQ. Gaelically tangential, Mass was last said in Scots Gaelic at a requiem in Glengarry in 1993 (great-uncle of a former classmate) but I believe that there is still a retired minister of the PCC who can preach in the language. The Glengarry gaeltacht was extremely influential for many years and has taken two centuries to fade to an honourable end.
The first missionary priests to Newfoundland, who came over with the Irish immigrants themselves - would offer a homily and gospel in Irish for their congregations, and the priests sent over right up until the late nineteenth century were told that Irish was a great asset. Unfortunately, the last native speaker died....five or six years ago? Though the university has got a great archive (if you will, I'm not sure if that's the correct word) of the language. If you're ever interested, you can contact them and I'm sure they'd send along some examples or information. They'd know three hundred percent more than I would [Razz]

So I guess the two congregations here are of the anglo-Catholic colour in that rainbow! Today I saw an ad orientum service, with beautifully made vestments. The music seemed to follow a pattern - traditional, contemporary, traditional, contemporary. I prefer traditional, but the contemporary really wasn't that bad (better than I'm used to). No hymnbooks, but the organist was using the Book of Common Praise and I think the New English Hymnal or New English Praise, I couldn't make it out. Today was his last Eucharist, so I'll be the one to (hopefully) take over musically.

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Well - Cultural Marxism HAS failed - as can be seen in Rotherham...

I have no idea what that means... or how it connects to MacArthur. [Confused]

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
But anyway, politics aside, he is a member of the "Anglican Church in North America" but this is a "missionary parish" so if that clears anything up, I hope it does indeed. They use the BCP only a 2011 revision, that seems to be entirely American.

ACNA mostly consists of ECUSA churches that have left over Dead Horse issues in the past 5-10 years.

One of the oldest Episcopal congregations in the US had a bitter split and lawsuit - Falls Church, VA - because most of the members quit to join ACNA and wanted to take the building with them. But the courts have ruled the ECUSA owns it, not the members. I believe the splinter group was at least until recently meeting in a local school.

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Knopwood
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Well, sure, in the States, but obviously most of the ones up here aren't former ECUSA parishes. At least one of the constituents of ACNA (viz. the Reformed Episcopalians) has had a Canadian edition of the BCP - although St George's in Hamilton simply uses the same prayer book of Elizabeth II that they did in their ACoC days - so it surprises me somewhat if the new one is strictly American.

[ 01. September 2014, 12:01: Message edited by: LQ ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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For my own reasons, I don't spend much time checking out ANiC churches, but I was under the impression that most of them used the 1959/1962 ACoC BCP, although one of the two Ottawa congregations uses a version of the Kenyan liturgy (as some of the clergy involved feel that it is a purer reformed liturgy).
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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Well, sure, in the States, but obviously most of the ones up here aren't former ECUSA parishes.

Even including the Canadian members I think it's still correct to say ACNA is majority former ECUSA churches, with Reformed Episcopal Churches making up the next largest subset.

I only raised this as REC at least in the US left ECUSA much earlier over OOW (which I won't get into here) while the more recent surge was over a different DH issue. As far as I'm aware OOW is allowed in ACNA, at least at priest level.

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ToujoursDan

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AFAIK, the Anglican Network in Canada (Canada's breakaway group over sexuality) consists of about 75 parishes and has a dual affiliation with the ANCA and the Province of the Southern Cone.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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seekingsister wrote -
quote:
I only raised this as REC at least in the US left ECUSA much earlier over OOW (which I won't get into here) while the more recent surge was over a different DH issue. As far as I'm aware OOW is allowed in ACNA, at least at priest level.
Are you perhaps thinking of another strand? REC left TEC (or whatever it was called back then) in the 1870's, long before OOW.

I find it somewhat confusing too, but remember that one...

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ToujoursDan

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Yes, REC was formed in opposition to the growing influence of the Oxford Movement in the 1870s.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
seekingsister wrote -
quote:
I only raised this as REC at least in the US left ECUSA much earlier over OOW (which I won't get into here) while the more recent surge was over a different DH issue. As far as I'm aware OOW is allowed in ACNA, at least at priest level.
Are you perhaps thinking of another strand? REC left TEC (or whatever it was called back then) in the 1870's, long before OOW.

I find it somewhat confusing too, but remember that one...

EEK - my mistake. And a bad one as where I'm from (NJ) the only ACNA presence is via the REC which has a lot of parishes in the Northeast.

But from what I remember (have a relative who is ECUSA in the diocese where the Falls Church debacle happened) the momentum for ACNA came a handful of ECUSA dioceses that left to start ACNA en masse, and partnered with the smaller Anglican breakwaway groups in the US and Canada to give it legs.

Some of the parishes that have joined in recent years are OK with OOW but the marriage DH is where they are setting the line it seems.

This is a long way of my trying to say that in my understanding ACNA's primary identity is based on opposition to ECUSA (and its Canadian counterpart) views on one major issue. Whereas REC existed as a breakaway group long before this and probably has its own reasons for joining.

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ChastMastr
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Anyone else know of the Anglican Church in America? That's the one I know more than ACNA. A (sadly former) friend of mine left TEC for ACA and became a priest, and then he and his parish joined the Roman Catholic Church, but apparently not all of ACA did this.

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
For my own reasons, I don't spend much time checking out ANiC churches, but I was under the impression that most of them used the 1959/1962 ACoC BCP

The one in Toronto looks awfully happy-clappy, but I wouldn't be surprised if they used both BCP and BAS to some extent. I was there when a former pastor of theirs was ordained by +Ralph Niagara. I think he spent all of about five minutes as a priest in the ACoC.

quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Anyone else know of the Anglican Church in America? That's the one I know more than ACNA. A (sadly former) friend of mine left TEC for ACA and became a priest, and then he and his parish joined the Roman Catholic Church, but apparently not all of ACA did this.

Yes, the ACA was a product of the "old" ACNA which emerged over the ordination of women, and it partially entered the ordinariate with not a little acrimony (including an unholy row at St Mary of the Angels in Hollywood). Its Canadian referent is the Anglican Catholic Church of Canada, whose former Ottawa pro-cathedral I have visited. One of their prelates wrote a rather waspish op-ed in the National Post ribbing the "new" ACNA for buying into a "unisex" sacramental theology so far as the priesthood goes and then trying to close the barn door behind the horse with marriage.

The ACCC was basically hollowed out geographically by the ordinariate Deanery of St John Baptist, with the Central Canadians going to Rome and the coasts staying put. (There is a single congregation in Montréal, but they sold their building some years back, which became a queer punk house - to my considerable satisfaction - and later, I'm told, burned down. They now meet in a retirement home in NDG and even the priest who had founded it began worshipping at St John the Evangelist again, and was buried there).

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ChastMastr
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As an interesting side note, my first Episcopal parish church was Redeemer in Sarasota, Florida, back circa 1985-86, whose rector was Fr. Jack Iker. Who is now breakway Anglican Bishop Jack Iker. Yes, that guy. Ah, I remember the wee "Forward in Faith: A Voice of Sanity in the Episcopal Church" pamphlets back when it was just starting out...

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Cameron PM
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This is a link to the website for their new 2011 Book of Common Prayer: here.

There's a section there alongside their prayer for the president, to include a prayer for the Queen at Canadian parishes. However, it uses American spelling.

My opinion is that it's just a waste. They could've easily used Common Worship (which this vicar is familiar with), although the form is different. When I was at the service, it was like sitting through one of the various liturgies included in the old Alternative Service book of the Church of England or the Canadian BAS.

I've only ever been to the services contained in the 1662 and Canadian BCP 1962, so maybe if I got used to it I'd be more accepting of it.

They projected the words and hymns above the altar. It was a big distraction. The priest didn't use an altar-book either, just photocopied versions of a collection of power-point slides. Interesting, nothing wrong with it, just different.

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Cameron PM
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Today I attended another of their Sunday Morning services. This time it was a Morning Prayer/Eucharist combination. They chanted the psalm, and after squawking their way through that, proceeded to sit down and stand to recite the Te Deum, in English, in their modernised form.

I met the associate-vicar, a very nice and polite and down-to-earth man. He seemed to be standard-fare high end of the broad Church. They had the bishop in for to say Morning prayer and the Eucharist.

Afterwards the congregation gave me a few hugs, right touchy feely, made me feel welcome.

After talking to the "pastor" for a while, it appears he's almost like a hybrid of the three church polities. He uses Catholic vestments, but his theology is both low and high on certain matters, and he refers to Catholics as "Romanists" or "papists" so I don't know what to make of that. He's a nice fella though.

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Your call.

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Cameron PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
Today I attended another of their Sunday Morning services. This time it was a Morning Prayer/Eucharist combination. They chanted the psalm, and after squawking their way through that, proceeded to sit down and stand to recite the Te Deum, in English, in their modernised form.

I met the associate-vicar, a very nice and polite and down-to-earth man. He seemed to be standard-fare high end of the broad Church. They had the bishop in for to say Morning prayer and the Eucharist.

Afterwards the congregation gave me a few hugs, right touchy feely, made me feel welcome.

After talking to the "pastor" for a while, it appears he's almost like a hybrid of the three church polities. He uses Catholic vestments, but his theology is both low and high on certain matters, and he refers to Catholics as "Romanists" or "papists" so I don't know what to make of that. He's a nice fella though.

I'm not sure what their policy is on homosexuality. They don't allow same-sex marriage, obviously, as the Network doesn't, but I'm not sure about their personal take.

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Albertus
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Which is the crowd that PD (anyone heard from him lately, BTW?) is/ was with? He was an interesting mix of high and low churchmanship.

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Cameron PM
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Another update.

Went to their first choir practise. * was told they used "standard fare" hymn tunes by the vicar, and now the word is forever tainted because the man has shown to be one of these "upper crust" types.

They use one or two traditional hymns, they want one played in a gospel style, then the rest are "worship" songs in the style of, only less worshipful than Billy Graham or Beverly Shea, and by comparing them to the songs at this church * feel that * 've insulted the immeasurable talent the two men possessed.

A great amount of "* want this Jesus, * need this Jesus, * want me to be the centre and not you, Jesus" type tunes. This doesn't particularly agree with my stomach.

However, with that said, * have yet to meet a single charismatic or what have you at the church. The choir are all lovely, beautiful people, greatly talented, who love to sing anthems and the old hymns and even new, if they're good. It seems there's a conflict between the minister and his people perhaps?

Yet to throw me off completely is that their altar is set up ad orientem, and the high Church vestments are used. Plus he ordered me (gratefully) the proper surplice and cassock for an organist. So all in all it seems like it's truly a broad, broad church in regards to liturgical taste.

* also found out that this vicar is, indeed, officially recognised by the Anglican Province of the Southern Cone....so technically is in the Communion.

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Knopwood
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Well, if he is in fact located in South America, perhaps. But yes, that is the basis of their pitch.
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Fr Weber
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PD is with the United Episcopal Church in North America, one of the three "Chambers jurisdictions" formed in 1978 by +Albert Chambers' consecration of four men to the episcopate of the fledgling Anglican Church in North America (no relation to the jurisdiction which currently bears that name). The UECNA is a sister jurisdiction of the Anglican Province of Christ the King (where I am) and the Anglican Catholic Church.

The Anglican Church in America which ChastMastr & LQ refer to is the product of an attempt at a merger between the Anglican Catholic Church and the American Episcopal Church in North America. At the last moment the merger didn't quite come off, and many of the ACC clergy decided not to join the new jurisdiction after all, choosing to soldier on under their pre-merger name. The AECNA ceased to exist for all practical purposes after that.

With the exception of the UECNA, pretty much all of the abovementioned jurisdictions are Anglo-Catholic (old style). The UECNA is a more broadly conceived organization and has a more markedly Reformed identity than the ACC, APCK, or ACA.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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[tangent]

I've no idea about the realignment stuff, but I would say that Newfoundland is one of the finest places we've ever visited, and the best island I've ever been to (haven't been to Labrador, though looked at in the rain from St Barbe).

Got called "buddy" and "darling" by everyone, and found nearly everyone would have a good chat just about any time which meant we never got to where we thought we might go, and it didn't matter a bit. I had to adjust my ears from town to town and east coast to west coast. We're talking of meeting our London-based daughter there on our fourth trip to, which is quite a bit more than half way to London for us from western Canada.

[/tangent]

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Magersfontein Lugg
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quote:
Originally posted by Cameron PM:
This is a link to the website for their new 2011 Book of Common Prayer: here.

There's a section there alongside their prayer for the president, to include a prayer for the Queen at Canadian parishes. However, it uses American spelling.


And that book says it:

quote:
.... meets an essential need for new, growing congregations who desire ancient worship in language intended for today's Christian.
And

quote:
Bound with the Thirty-Nine Articles of Religion, including the Royal Declaration
The Royal declaration?? Which and what about?
And are the 39 articles of the book 'in language intended for today's Christian'?

Seems a curious body

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Cameron PM
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I was curious about the Royal proclamation.

It has to be Royal to be a Royal proclamation, and American inventions usually aren't decreed "Royal."

Unless they're after photocopying the regular one from the 1662 BCP.

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Horseman Bree
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I have only one direct experience of ACNA, but it may be illustrative. An ACC priest was removed from a parish in the north of the diocese ("too conservative" for rural New Brunswick!) and, as if he were RC, was parachuted into a city parish whose previous priest succumbed to Alzheimer's. His only topic of sermon was the evil of the gays, which caused his parish to decrease rapidly. The day he retired, so he could claim the pension, he announced the opening of an ACNA parish in the city, using the Family Room at the local Wesleyan megachurch. This caused significant heartburn among the rest of the Anglicans.

Of course, after a few of the hangers-on-to-coattails left, the new parish became non-viable and disappeared, not having any physical presence to be disposed of. Where the priest has gone is a mystery to me, one which I will not be investigating.

This may not be typical, but that crowd generally do not care how much damage they do to the "ungodly" of the ACC, so beware.

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Augustine the Aleut
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Horseman Bree posts:
quote:
The day he retired, so he could claim the pension, he announced the opening of an ACNA parish in the city, using the Family Room at the local Wesleyan megachurch.
I am not certain how this has anything to do with his pension, which (I am assuming that he became vested in it some years before) would have come into play the week before, or the week following. After all, it is his property and presumably he had contributed to it over the years.

After all, a Bank of Nova Scotia retiree keeps their pension even if he determines to bank from a credit union (or, indeed, be employed by them) when they retire. And I would keep my federal public service pension should I take up Bolivian citizenship on retirement.

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Golden Key
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Augustine the Aleut--

"Anglican tracks at evangelical seminaries"???

{Blinks.}

Er...is this a Canadian thing??? I'm guessing it's for low-church folks?

Thx.

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Magersfontein Lugg
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I think that the Church of England is re-aligning itself more and more to an 'open' and even 'conservative' evangelical position.

Hence:
free for all in (often ill thought out) liturgy.
Light weight songs.
Playing down clergy dress.
Lot of 'Jesus, Jesus, talk...'
Fewer theologians in leadership positions - a preference for church managers.

and:
Decline in traditional language worship
Decline in use of daily office
Decline in pastoral care of non church people.

Or am I being cynical?

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Augustine the Aleut--

"Anglican tracks at evangelical seminaries"???

{Blinks.}

Er...is this a Canadian thing??? I'm guessing it's for low-church folks?

Thx.

Not necessarily. Boring theological studies tangent follows.

Anglicanism in Canada does not have a large percentage of the population (8% by the most recent census) or any real mass (500,000) over a large country to sustain a substantial academic presence-- its main seminaries (Trinity and Wycliffe, Vancouver, Saint John's in Winnipeg) are affiliated with university schools of theology which provide shared training for a number of churches.

There are several denomination-unspecific evangelical seminaries (e.g. Trinity Western in Vancouver) where they provide denomination-specific training for ordination tracks, Lutheran, Baptist, or even Anglican. Anglican ordinands there would tend not to hew to ACoC culture and would be more evangelical or XXXIX-conservative (not exactly the same thing). There is also an Anglican track at the local (Ottawa) RC university, Saint Paul, which enables Ottawa ordinands to be trained without having to go to Toronto. A parallel example is how the Montreal Diocesan Theological College, while still technically in existence, has become the Anglican track at the Montreal School of Theology, part of the Faculty of Religious Studies at McGill.

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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This happens quite a bit in the US, as well. I know continuing clergy who've received master's degrees from Regent in BC, Fuller, and Vanguard.

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balaam

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# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
I think that the Church of England is re-aligning itself more and more to an 'open' and even 'conservative' evangelical position.

<snip>

am I being cynical?

Not cynical, and I do not think it is a deliberate realignment, but a natural consequence of the evangelicals declining slower than the other factions.

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Horseman Bree posts:
quote:
The day he retired, so he could claim the pension, he announced the opening of an ACNA parish in the city, using the Family Room at the local Wesleyan megachurch.
I am not certain how this has anything to do with his pension, which (I am assuming that he became vested in it some years before) would have come into play the week before, or the week following. After all, it is his property and presumably he had contributed to it over the years.

After all, a Bank of Nova Scotia retiree keeps their pension even if he determines to bank from a credit union (or, indeed, be employed by them) when they retire. And I would keep my federal public service pension should I take up Bolivian citizenship on retirement.

This issue caused a certain amount of the heartache in the parish he was damaging: he wasn't honest enough to be open about his talks with ACNA while he was still their priest, even though he could have done so without damaging his choices after retirement. He was quite happy to have the Diocese run his retirement fund, even if they were Godless heretics, but he then went out of his way to take the money and visibly run to the megachurch on the same street to diss his former congregation as another bunch of the same kind of not-really-Christian on the actual day of his taking said money.

A rather mean-spirited man.

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It's Not That Simple

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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I have my own experiences of clergy still on ACoC payroll as they plot, and I have little good to say about them (and will happily express myself given a glass of something palatable), but I think that pensions are irrelevant to the discussion. I have had conversations with others who would share the opinion of Horseman Bree's posse on the pension question, and I am not convinced. One can question the integrity of those who take diocesan paycheques while they dabble in "talks," but the pensions are for past service and partly their contribution.
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Knopwood
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# 11596

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

There are several denomination-unspecific evangelical seminaries (e.g. Trinity Western in Vancouver) where they provide denomination-specific training for ordination tracks, Lutheran, Baptist, or even Anglican. Anglican ordinands there would tend not to hew to ACoC culture and would be more evangelical or XXXIX-conservative (not exactly the same thing). There is also an Anglican track at the local (Ottawa) RC university, Saint Paul, which enables Ottawa ordinands to be trained without having to go to Toronto. A parallel example is how the Montreal Diocesan Theological College, while still technically in existence, has become the Anglican track at the Montreal School of Theology, part of the Faculty of Religious Studies at McGill.

Regent College in Vancouver has or had an Anglican Studies programme: I suspect it has produced few graduates for New West and most of its constituency would probably have gone over to the Argentines. And in the US, Duke Divinity (Methodist) has an Anglican "house of studies" (for both Episcopal and ACNA ordinands).

VST in Vancouver and AST in Halifax are co-sponsored by multiple denominations, including Anglican, but the predecessor schools have merged totally and no longer have a distinct identity.

(In Vancouver, the Anglican seminaries were the anglo-catholic St Mark's and the evangelical Latimer House. In Halifax, the Anglican stream came from the old divinity faculty at the University of King's College - the original Columbia University - which folded with the United seminary, dashing my hopes of studying theology at King's. Oh well, there's always J-school).

Protestant* theological education in Montréal is too tangled a web for words. You spend three years (two if you have a previous degree) earning a Bachelor of Theology at either McGill or U de M and then a year of field ed and denominationally-specific courses through your college (Diocesan, United, or [continuing] Presbyterian) at which point an MDiv is awarded. While this effectively subsumes the BTh, the latter is never technically revoked, and so Dio grads routinely put "BTh, MDiv" after their names after a total of three years of study.

(*in the historic Québecois sense, including Anglican)

[ 05. December 2014, 15:09: Message edited by: Knopwood ]

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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I had confused Trinity Western with Regent--- but the Montréal situation is even more complex than I had thought. wow
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John Holding

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(Please excuse interruption -- AtheA, your PM box is full)
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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Cenobite:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I know nothing about this group and not much about Anglicans. But what a friend whe have in Google. This web site on The submerging church may be related. The site talks about evil gay tolerant pastors and disses Rick Warren for talking about God as The compassionate and merciful one which apparently is an Islamic formulation that doesn't apply to their version of the Christian God.

This site makes me want to write a book, so that I can get on their list of recommended authors not to read, alongside the likes of St. Ignatius Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila...
On the plus side, they also have Todd Bentley and Mark Driscoll on their burning list....which proves the maxim that a broken clock is right at least twice a day...

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Komensky
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# 8675

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
quote:
Originally posted by Cenobite:
quote:
Originally posted by Palimpsest:
I know nothing about this group and not much about Anglicans. But what a friend whe have in Google. This web site on The submerging church may be related. The site talks about evil gay tolerant pastors and disses Rick Warren for talking about God as The compassionate and merciful one which apparently is an Islamic formulation that doesn't apply to their version of the Christian God.

This site makes me want to write a book, so that I can get on their list of recommended authors not to read, alongside the likes of St. Ignatius Loyola, Julian of Norwich, Thomas Aquinas, Teresa of Avila...
On the plus side, they also have Todd Bentley and Mark Driscoll on their burning list....which proves the maxim that a broken clock is right at least twice a day...
It something something indeed that they position themselves even further to the right of right-wing nutjobs like Rick Warren. Yikes!

K.

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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Rick Warren is beginning to be regarded as a dangerous pinko librul by the US fundie brigade as he likes the Pope and thinks it's a bad idea to be beastly to The Gayz

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Komensky
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# 8675

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He works very hard at his PR, that's clearly a priority for him. I know that there are people even further to to the right of him, but the damage he has already done, personally, to fellow human being because of their sexuality is so great it is hard to gauge. Crocodile tears.

K.

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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