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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Priest is a Walking Sacrament
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Just thinking aloud, SvitlanaV2.
I agree with you that there's no such thing as 'steady state'. We're always in a state of flux and change.
I s'pose the point I was making was one that was in broad agreement with the one you'd made ... that it would behove new church set-ups to bear in mind that they too might prove transitory ... rather than seeing themselves as somehow God's last word on any matter ... which was essentially how the house-churches of the 1980s saw themselves.
The rallying-cry comment wasn't aimed at you, necessarily, but at those who might wish to rally behind such things ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I don't know whether I've mentioned this before, forgive me if I have, but I once heard an RC priest observe - after he'd returned from a conference on such issues - that the average life-span of a religious order (the Cistercians say) was about 600 years, whilst that of a Protestant denomination was about 200 - 300 years and that of a 'new church' was less than a single generation - essentially the lifespan of its leadership.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Yes, you did mention those figures earlier in the thread.
Unfortunately, the longevity of the RCC isn't much help if you live in a parish where the RC priest is sick and elderly, and where the mission of the local church doesn't line up with your or your family's needs. But to you that's probably a dreadfully Protestant and 'consumerist' way of looking at it!
My impression is that the historical churches do well at pastoral work with the elderly, and are generally good at a more reflective, sedentary approach. So perhaps the ideal trajectory is a bit like yours; we should spend our youth in the dynamic 'alternative' churches, and transition to the more traditional ones in middle and old age. Then the denominational longevity of a particular 'new' congregation won't matter.
[ 01. November 2014, 13:00: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
That's one way of looking at it.
Then everyone would be like me and I'd feel very smug and self-satisfied.
Thanks for the tip!
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
On the RC thing - I don't know enough about how RC parishes function on the ground so I can't comment on whether or not they are selling people short.
My impression is that in most inner-city areas RC parishes are generally migrant ones.
Here, our local RC parish is relatively small but very active. In one of the nearest bigger towns the RC parish is very multicultural - but that's less the case here where most of the faithful seem descended from a handful of local RC families who stuck with things and built it up self-sacrificially from scratch. I can forgive them the tacky plastic iconography because I know something of the background.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
The point is that RCC clergy in the UK and elsewhere are ageing and in short supply. Perhaps this doesn't bother most RCs because they don't necessarily have high expectations of a dynamic, active priesthood, but this isn't going to convince charismatic evangelicals or proponents of organic church that the RC way is the best way!
I'm glad that the RC parish where you are is doing well, but their success couldn't be replicated everywhere. People have to develop their own way of being and doing church for the situation in which they find themselves, rather than waiting for the RCC to do brilliant things for everybody.
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
The typical RC parish does not include only the 'ageing' clergy.It is indeed the 'people of God on their way through life and on to eternity'.There are the old and the young,the rich and the poor,the devout and the curious, the chewers of the altar rails and those who turn up at funerals.All have to be accommodated and considered.All have to be reminded in some way of the joy of the Gospel and brought,if possible, to a real encounter with Jesus Christ.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
What the heck?!
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The point is that RCC clergy in the UK and elsewhere are ageing and in short supply. Perhaps this doesn't bother most RCs because they don't necessarily have high expectations of a dynamic, active priesthood, but this isn't going to convince charismatic evangelicals or proponents of organic church that the RC way is the best way!
I'm glad that the RC parish where you are is doing well, but their success couldn't be replicated everywhere. People have to develop their own way of being and doing church for the situation in which they find themselves, rather than waiting for the RCC to do brilliant things for everybody.
Who is talking about replicating our local RC parish anywhere else? They've got their problems just as everyone else has ... all I'm saying is that they've done very well over the years to build a parish from a very small base and against all the odds.
I admire them for that.
I'm by no means suggesting that they have a template that can be franchised elsewhere nor that what they are doing is some kind of model for anyone else to follow - such as charismatic evangelicals or whoever else.
Who is talking about the RCC doing 'brilliant things for everybody'?
These people didn't wait around for the RCC to do anything either - they simply got on with it and raising sufficient funds over the years to carve out an RC parish where one hadn't previously existed.
I don't know why you keep harping on about these larger and more venerable churches such as the RCC or the Anglicans as if somehow they don't face similar issues to anyone else.
All kinds of churches are struggling. Because our local RCC parish managed to establish itself from a standing start doesn't mean that it's going to carry all before it ...
I'm just making a few observations and acknowledging that they've done well to get themselves established, that's all.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I also don't think we can generalise about what RCs do or don't want from their priests.
I know an RC lady locally who - rather unusually perhaps - drives four miles to another town to attend Mass there because she likes the priest.
The local RCs seem to have an ambivalent attitude towards their priest - they think he's a good bloke but feel he's a lot better with toddlers and young kids than he is with adults.
He is a nice guy, rather otherworldly perhaps ...
I haven't a great deal of direct experience of everyday RC parish life - I tend to come across our local RCs at ecumenical gatherings and some Lenten activities. So I couldn't begin to comment on what they do or don't expect from their priesthood.
My impression, though, is that it doesn't seem to differ massively from the expectations that Anglicans or non-conformists might have of their clergy/ministers ...
They want them to be good pastors, good listeners and good all-rounders.
So their expectations are probably just as unrealistic as anyone else's ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gamaliel
You're the one who brought the RCC into it. I had no intention of referring to them, but you wanted to restate the point that RCC has lasted a long time while new churches often only last as long as the leader.
I assumed from this that you thought the RCC had something to teach the new churches. Or perhaps that Christians in the new churches ought to join the RCC. I'm not sure what your point was otherwise, because I certainly haven't said that the RCC is incapable of doing anything well.
The existence of an organic church community should't negate the ministry of a local RC parish church. Indeed, the two types of church are likely to attract rather different kinds of people, so I don't see why there would be a problem.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
The point I was trying - and obviously failing - to make was that my local RC parish developed organically ... from very small beginnings with a few faithful families who formed the nucleus of a fledgeling parish.
My point was that this was an organic process and yet one which derived from and drew upon an old and venerable tradition.
That's all.
The 'let's all be trendy and talk about organic church brigade' don't have a monopoly on being organic.
That's all I'm saying.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The 'let's all be trendy and talk about organic church brigade' don't have a monopoly on being organic.
That's all I'm saying.
Ah. I think we've already agreed that there's nothing new under the sun.
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