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Source: (consider it) Thread: Imagine there's no heaven (nor hell, nor anything after you're dead)
seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
Let's say that I've discovered the joy of cotton-polyester blend clothing, but my church has a strict belief that this violates the OT law forbidding mixed fabrics. I have a different interpretation of that passage (that it applies to sewing two types together, where they may shrink at different rates) so I don't believe blended fibers are sinful.

This makes it uncomfortable to continue attending this particular church, so I stop, and later join with others who hold similar views on fabrics in a different church.

This mean I'm no longer a Christian?

No it doesn't mean you're not a Christian, because in this situation the person finds other Christians and just fellowships elsewhere.

I'm talking about someone who does 0% of the things that in the most generous sense one would expect of a Christian, but still believes in God. In my mind that's not a Christian anymore.

And to clarify - I reject nearly all of the beliefs of the church I grew up in, but the people who grew up in that same environment are the ones who have expressed this "I'm sure God is real but he's asking too much of me so I would rather not deal with being a Christian at all" sentiment. And because I know where they are coming from, I can assure you that such an attitude exists. And perhaps is more common on conservative Christian cultures compared to Europe.

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IconiumBound
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originally posted by Quetzcoati:
quote:
Yes, the alternatives to universalism seem to include 'eternal conscious torment', for some people anyway, I don't enough if that means 'most'.
If the reward of adhering to the morality of the gospel is an eternal life of ease (heaven), then there has to be the opposite, a punishment, for those who fail that test. If 'eternal conscious torment' seems too extreme perhaps there could be something less vicious; say 'Limbo'?
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Ikkyu
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
So I find it offensive when people claim that faith is a "choice". I guess they do it to justify why god can send unbelievers to Hell for not believing. I also find it funny when they use arguments such as "deep down inside you really believe". Or if I do a "good" deed it MUST come from god. Well, maybe anything can be said to come from god given the many possible definitions of god.

For some people it is a struggle to believe. I'm married to a person like that. He wasn't raised in any religion and while he can see the value of faith objectively, it doesn't do anything for him. This is not someone I see as rejecting God. He doesn't know God at all so there's nothing to reject.

But there are people who do know about God and faith and then reject it, not only for loss of faith but because of desire to live a life that contradicts that religion's teachings. To me that's a pretty different category.

If you loose your faith you are not rejecting god. That would be contradictory. You can't reject something you don't believe exists.

The people you describe might not be leading what you deem a "Christian" life but if they are as you describe they are still believers. People don't always do what they think its in their best interest for many reasons. Maybe low self esteem? People can be self contradictory that way. A god that punishes troubled people like that is not very kind or just.
I suspect some of those actually don't believe at all but are afraid to say so because of the stigma against atheists.

But there are large numbers of people without low self esteem who genuinely have no belief in god.
And for them it has nothing to do with being allowed to do whatever they want. I certainly don't need the threat of Hell to encourage me to do what I think its right.
Actually when I had faith I was never afraid of god or eternal punishment. Those things never figured in why I chose to do things. When one is young and living a reasonably comfortable existence, its easy to believe nothing bad will ever happen to you. It was actually contemplating eternal punishment for others that I stopped believing.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Carex:
Let's say that I've discovered the joy of cotton-polyester blend clothing, but my church has a strict belief that this violates the OT law forbidding mixed fabrics. I have a different interpretation of that passage (that it applies to sewing two types together, where they may shrink at different rates) so I don't believe blended fibers are sinful.

This makes it uncomfortable to continue attending this particular church, so I stop, and later join with others who hold similar views on fabrics in a different church.

This mean I'm no longer a Christian?

No it doesn't mean you're not a Christian, because in this situation the person finds other Christians and just fellowships elsewhere.

I'm talking about someone who does 0% of the things that in the most generous sense one would expect of a Christian, but still believes in God. In my mind that's not a Christian anymore.

And to clarify - I reject nearly all of the beliefs of the church I grew up in, but the people who grew up in that same environment are the ones who have expressed this "I'm sure God is real but he's asking too much of me so I would rather not deal with being a Christian at all" sentiment. And because I know where they are coming from, I can assure you that such an attitude exists. And perhaps is more common on conservative Christian cultures compared to Europe.

My problem with this is the emphasis on 'living a good Christian life'. Is that not a purely works-based thing?

Most people who are doing what I would consider to be un-Christian things are very happy to go to church and consider themselves Christians. Many of those people are in church leadership. I may think they are acting in a non-Christian way but it's not for me to decide whether they are or not.

Someone's a Christian until they say they're not, and it's not for others to make windows into people's souls.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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HughWillRidmee
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
HughWillRidmee: If, with no real corroboration, I told you that you could leap out of a tenth floor window and float unharmed to the ground would you jump because not to do so would be boring?
I'm afraid it's nothing that dramatic either. If by some miracle you would choose faith again, chances are your body wouldn't end up splattered on the floor.

Perhaps you could compare it with going on a party or on a voyage. You don't know beforehand what it's going to be, but sometimes that might enhance the adventure.

Chances? - as far as I can see there's no reason to suspect any outcome other than a funeral (a jam sandwich vicar? - we think it might be mixed red fruit). A party/voyage is a temporary, fun thing which will probably leave no long lasting effects other than the warm memories stimulated by some 'photos.

Where we differ is that I see the consequences as being serious rather than frivolous. Doing Christianity properly, as I understand it (and as I suspect you also do), involves total commitment and the investment of substantial amounts of time, effort and cash. I think I can use those investments in ways which make a (modest) positive contribution to our world and, on balance, I don't think superstition does that. (And there are many honourable individuals who are religious and make a mixed, possibly sometimes net positive, contribution - there is not necessarily a cause/effect relationship).

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The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

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LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
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quote:
HughWillRidmee: A party/voyage is a temporary, fun thing which will probably leave no long lasting effects other than the warm memories stimulated by some 'photos.
I was going to take a temporary, fun trip to Brazil 21 years ago. I haven't gone back yet.

quote:
HughWillRidmee: Doing Christianity properly, as I understand it (and as I suspect you also do), involves total commitment and the investment of substantial amounts of time, effort and cash.
That's what you're afraid of?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Galloping Granny
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However many definitions and doctrines are quoted, only God knows who is a Christian and who is not.
Discussing the exact nature and relationship of the persons of the Trinity doesn’t bring you closer to God, does it?
Following the Way that Jesus taught his disciples leads to salvation from materialism, egotism, hatred, prejudice, judgement of others...
After a lifetime of learning to follow that Way, I am quite confident that the Mystery which is God is always present, as a spirit, wherever I am – not sitting on a throne with Jesus sitting at his right hand, not in the form of a much larger than life Middle Eastern potentate.
And if there is a life after death, which I don’t assume (all cultures have hoped for one, and imagined it in their own terms) – that could be great; the thought of eternity could be terrifying but maybe time would cease to exist.
Some shipmates might not regard me as a Christian but that’s okay. Some of the congregation I belong to probably have similar views to mine and some not, but they just get on with living the Way of Jesus. We don’t have gatekeepers (‘If you don’t accept all our interpretations of scripture we don’t want you.’)
What more is needed?

GG

--------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
The people you describe might not be leading what you deem a "Christian" life but if they are as you describe they are still believers. People don't always do what they think its in their best interest for many reasons. Maybe low self esteem? People can be self contradictory that way. A god that punishes troubled people like that is not very kind or just.
I suspect some of those actually don't believe at all but are afraid to say so because of the stigma against atheists.

It's not what I deem. I have to take a bit of offense at the suggestion that I'm going around determining who is a Christian and who isn't. If someone tells me "I still believe in God but I'm not a Christian" then that's what I'm taking them at. And that's what I'm talking about.

In your understanding of Christianity, as long as you believe in God, you don't have to read Scripture, pray, fellowship with other Christians, serve and care for the needy? The belief in itself is sufficient for a relationship with Jesus, even if you don't do any of the things he asks of His followers?

Doesn't Scripture say "even the demons believe?"

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seekingsister
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# 17707

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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
My problem with this is the emphasis on 'living a good Christian life'. Is that not a purely works-based thing?

You've used quotes but as I never said that, who are you quoting?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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SS- it's a paraphrase of what you said earlier. One does not have to use your exact words to report back what you said. If you think the paraphrase is inaccurate, then say why, but this "I never said that!" thing you do has marred more than one thread in which I've engaged with you.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
SS- it's a paraphrase of what you said earlier. One does not have to use your exact words to report back what you said. If you think the paraphrase is inaccurate, then say why, but this "I never said that!" thing you do has marred more than one thread in which I've engaged with you.

No Karl, it's a bad faith attempt to misrepresent what I'm saying.

Let me quote myself:


quote:
I'm talking about someone who does 0% of the things that in the most generous sense one would expect of a Christian, but still believes in God. In my mind that's not a Christian anymore.
If you can tell me how that's saying I'm "putting an emphasis on living a good Christian life" or being "works-based" as opposed to "I'm trying to identify what a Christian life is at its bare minimum" - I'm all ears.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Pomona paraphrased "I'm talking about someone who does 0% of the things that in the most generous sense one would expect of a Christian." as "(not) living a good Christian life" which seems fair enough to me.

She then went on to say that that seemed to be works based to her. Fair enough. You are too quick to accuse posters of bad faith whenever they explore the implications of what you have said.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Boogie

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I think the answer is very simple. It's not up to us to decide who is a Christian and who isn't.

If they say they are, then they are.

I hesitate to say it at all these days as 'Christian' is often seen as misogynist and homophobic, sometimes with good reason.

If asked I say "What do you mean by 'Christian'?" If they say 'Following Jesus and His teachings' I agree that I'm a Christian. Otherwise I say "NO - I don't believe any of that!"

Most Christians in the press tend to be the Irish Bakery kind [Frown] A million miles from what I believe.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Pomona paraphrased "I'm talking about someone who does 0% of the things that in the most generous sense one would expect of a Christian." as "(not) living a good Christian life" which seems fair enough to me.

How is that fair? I'd give people 1%! I pray to God sometimes - cool, OK. I go into churches to light candles and contemplate. Alright! I serve the poor in my community. Awesome! If someone doesn't even do any of these small things that are part of a Christian life by even the most liberal standards possible AND they say they are not a Christian, then I don't see how they are.

If anything it seems Pomona and perhaps yourself are keen to identify anyone who thinks God exists as a Christian believer, and it doesn't ring true with people I know and my own experiences as a person who for 10 years actively avoided Christian worship, prayer, the Bible etc. while never completely giving up a basic belief in God. It didn't make me a Christian because I didn't have a relationship with Christ.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Pomona paraphrased "I'm talking about someone who does 0% of the things that in the most generous sense one would expect of a Christian." as "(not) living a good Christian life" which seems fair enough to me.

How is that fair? I'd give people 1%! I pray to God sometimes - cool, OK. I go into churches to light candles and contemplate. Alright! I serve the poor in my community. Awesome! If someone doesn't even do any of these small things that are part of a Christian life by even the most liberal standards possible AND they say they are not a Christian, then I don't see how they are.


You are spectacularly missing the point. The only point I'm making at the moment is that "(not) living a Good Christian life" is a valid paraphrase of your "I'm talking about someone who does 0% of the things that in the most generous sense one would expect of a Christian." - where you accused Pomona of misquoting you and bad faith.

The underlying theology I am not addressing at all at the moment - just the flaky debating tactic of accusing others of "bad faith" the moment they start examining what you've said if they dare to paraphrase it.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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seekingsister
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You are spectacularly missing the point. The only point I'm making at the moment is that "(not) living a Good Christian life" is a valid paraphrase of your "I'm talking about someone who does 0% of the things that in the most generous sense one would expect of a Christian." - where you accused Pomona of misquoting you and bad faith.

Karl, I'm sorry, but I'm not missing the point.

It's an invalid paraphrase because there is no evidence that I ever defined the Christian life, be it good or bad, as anything more than faith AND some effort to have a relationship with God through prayer, Bible reading, fellowship, or service. I didn't quantify it - that you have to pray this often, go to church this often, etc.

To call this works-based is either in bad faith, or a really major case of reading incomprehension. It was an inappropriate paraphrase and when Pomona comes online I expect her to defend it.

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la vie en rouge
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quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Someone's a Christian until they say they're not, and it's not for others to make windows into people's souls.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I think the answer is very simple. It's not up to us to decide who is a Christian and who isn't.

If they say they are, then they are.

I understand the sentiments behind saying this, but find problematic some of the conclusions one ends up with.

Certain African evangelicals of my acquaintance have always insisted that Blaise Compaore, the just-ousted president of Burkina Faso, was definitely God’s gift to his country. Why? “Because he’s a (Pentecostal) Christian”. The fact that he was corruptly holding onto power and embezzling millions of dollars in one of the world’s poorest countries didn’t seem to alter their opinion much.

Now, maybe Mr Compaore really does have a deep personal faith. Or maybe he’s just paying lip-service to evangelical churches because it’s politically advantageous. Either way, I think it’s perfectly right and proper to stand up and say “Mr. President, corruption and embezzlement are not Christian behaviours. If you really are a Christian, you need to stop this, and if you don’t, I’m going to assume you’re not one.”

--------------------
Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
However many definitions and doctrines are quoted, only God knows who is a Christian and who is not.
Discussing the exact nature and relationship of the persons of the Trinity doesn’t bring you closer to God, does it?
Following the Way that Jesus taught his disciples leads to salvation from materialism, egotism, hatred, prejudice, judgement of others...
After a lifetime of learning to follow that Way, I am quite confident that the Mystery which is God is always present, as a spirit, wherever I am – not sitting on a throne with Jesus sitting at his right hand, not in the form of a much larger than life Middle Eastern potentate.
And if there is a life after death, which I don’t assume (all cultures have hoped for one, and imagined it in their own terms) – that could be great; the thought of eternity could be terrifying but maybe time would cease to exist.
Some shipmates might not regard me as a Christian but that’s okay. Some of the congregation I belong to probably have similar views to mine and some not, but they just get on with living the Way of Jesus. We don’t have gatekeepers (‘If you don’t accept all our interpretations of scripture we don’t want you.’)
What more is needed?

GG

A very sagacious post. Something similar happened to me; it dawned on me a few years ago, that God is here.

This seems to throw the cat among the pigeons; in particular, what is the point of religions? There is the old joke that if religion is the solution, what is the problem?

Of course, if God is here, there are still things which religions might accomplish, such as providing bonds between people, providing a fuller picture of God's actions, and so on.

I suppose also, that God might be here, but I might not be, and so on. In other words, there might still be an alienation between me and God, although usually, the idea that God is here is supposed to overcome that, since here is all there is, and it is filled (and fulfilled) by God.

Hmm. Difficult to really address this on a forum.

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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You are spectacularly missing the point. The only point I'm making at the moment is that "(not) living a Good Christian life" is a valid paraphrase of your "I'm talking about someone who does 0% of the things that in the most generous sense one would expect of a Christian." - where you accused Pomona of misquoting you and bad faith.

Karl, I'm sorry, but I'm not missing the point.

It's an invalid paraphrase because there is no evidence that I ever defined the Christian life, be it good or bad, as anything more than faith AND some effort to have a relationship with God through prayer, Bible reading, fellowship, or service. I didn't quantify it - that you have to pray this often, go to church this often, etc.

To call this works-based is either in bad faith, or a really major case of reading incomprehension. It was an inappropriate paraphrase and when Pomona comes online I expect her to defend it.

Can I suggest then that instead of going off about misquoting and bad faith, you should have said something like "Pomona, I think you misunderstand me. What I mean is..."

Assuming the worst of people doesn't really make for constructive debate.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Someone's a Christian until they say they're not, and it's not for others to make windows into people's souls.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I think the answer is very simple. It's not up to us to decide who is a Christian and who isn't.

If they say they are, then they are.

I understand the sentiments behind saying this, but find problematic some of the conclusions one ends up with.

Certain African evangelicals of my acquaintance have always insisted that Blaise Compaore, the just-ousted president of Burkina Faso, was definitely God’s gift to his country. Why? “Because he’s a (Pentecostal) Christian”. The fact that he was corruptly holding onto power and embezzling millions of dollars in one of the world’s poorest countries didn’t seem to alter their opinion much.

Now, maybe Mr Compaore really does have a deep personal faith. Or maybe he’s just paying lip-service to evangelical churches because it’s politically advantageous. Either way, I think it’s perfectly right and proper to stand up and say “Mr. President, corruption and embezzlement are not Christian behaviours. If you really are a Christian, you need to stop this, and if you don’t, I’m going to assume you’re not one.”

The problem here is that this is still in the No True Scotsman arena. His profession v. behaviour is simply a matter of degree in difference to an "acceptable" sinning Christian. It is certainly possible for him to be a believer and still behave as he does. If you opine he is a poor Christian, then you have good grounds. To claim he is no Christian is without grounds, ISTM.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
My problem with this is the emphasis on 'living a good Christian life'. Is that not a purely works-based thing?

You've used quotes but as I never said that, who are you quoting?
Well I'm actually quoting you from a few pages back, but I'm using inverted commas not speech marks. It's not a quote.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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# 17175

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Seekingsister, since I missed the edit window - it's neither bad faith nor lack of reading comprehension. Just because you don't quantify how many times someone has to go to church etc doesn't mean it's not a works-based perspective. It's still basing how much personal faith someone has on outward actions, which may not be an accurate guide. I'm also not saying that anyone who has some belief in God is a Christian, I'm just saying that people are allowed to self-define and call themselves Christians and it has very little to do with you. I don't think that anyone who has some belief in God is a Christian, but many people can have faith in Christ's redemption (quite a different thing) and not do all those things you listed. People are capable of having a deep inner faith without much of an outer faith.

At least within Trinitarian, creedal Christian denominations, it's not up to others to decide who is a Christian and who isn't. That's between God and the individual.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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# 17175

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quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
A lot of that resonates with me. I do find routine church life to often be boring and naive. I don't know if seekingsister would see that as being due to sin, but to me it's like being bored at school because you're not being challenged - it's not me thinking I'm better than everyone else, I just need a challenge and I'm not getting it.

I'm talking about things that anyone - liberal or conservative, evangelical or high church - would consider to be sins. I gave examples - infidelity and crime. Many people in good faith cannot keep going to church and doing the Christian motions when they know what they really want to do, is something that's not compatible with a good Christian life. So they drop the Christian life even if they still believe deep down that it's the right path. They can't or won't follow that path, for whatever reason.

Some people wish to say "Well that's someone who has lost their faith" but it's not as if they don't actually believe in God. They just don't care to have a relationship with Him.

It seems to me the universalist position goes along with the idea that no one would ever reject God if given the choice - even once on the other side. That doesn't jibe with my experiences and I wonder what makes universalists feel that this is actually the case for most people. Humans are quite good at rejecting love and being self-destructive in their personal relationships, so I'm not sure why their spiritual relationships would be any different.

'Good Christian life' highlighted in italics by me because I'm not great at editing quotes. I knew you had said it, and this is what was in my mind when I posted. So um yes, you did say it. Sorry what you actually posted doesn't back you up there.

That looks awfully works-based to me. I mean how do you quantify a good Christian life? I know what I would define it as would be different to what many on this board would.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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seekingsister
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Pomona - how is not commiting crime or cheating on your spouse a works-based theology?

I'm sorry but if you are saying you don't actually think some things are sins, and that some people can't take Communion with a straight face while engaging in these things, then you are indeed in a very liberal branch of the church.

I think anyone can be a Christian no matter what they are doing, as long as they still try to have a relationship with God. I was talking about the feelings of the people I know who are not in church due to things going on their personal lives - who think they are not living a "good Christian life" so would rather drop it.

Nothing in what you have quoted supports any claim that I am emphasizing a "good Christian life" nor that I am a works-oriented legalist.

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Pomona
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Please point to where I said I don't believe anything is a sin? I never said that and it's not what I believe. Your posts clearly emphasise 'a good Christian life'. You may wish to deny it, but it's there. I quoted what I did to show that you had said something you denied saying.

Yes, cheating on your wife is a sin (committing crime surely depends on what it is - I mean if you break an unjust law then that's clearly not sinful). But sinning doesn't make you not a Christian. I would say the idea of a God who takes away salvation at a whim is an unhelpful one. Unless you think you can be Christian enough to be saved but not enough to call yourself a Christian? That's what I'm talking about - the idea that there's a human-decided level of sin beyond which you can't call yourself a Christian. That doesn't square up with the Gospel IMO. For a start, oppressing the poor is a rather bigger sin but I don't see you saying that George Osborne cannot be considered a Christian.

Also whether or not I view something as a sin doesn't stop others from thinking that it's not a sin. That was rather my point - what is a sin varies so much amongst Christians. I mean, to use an extreme example, a polygynist Christian would not consider having multiple wives to be sinful, even though most Christians would. That's NOT saying that it's not a sin, just that actually there are plenty of people who sin and consider themselves Christians and take Communion etc because they do not consider themselves to be sinning.

The people you talk about are surely to be pitied because they think they're only worth something to God if they're perfect? 'I'm committing xyz huge sin so it's not worth it' is a really sad perspective to have. I have encountered some people like that, but funnily enough only those who have been disfellowshipped or otherwise left very conservative churches over things that very few Christians would consider sinful. I mean, Dead Horses stuff as mentioned but also things like women who want to work outside the home. If you (general you) teach that certain types of people are not really Christians, you get very close to people who say Catholics are not Christians etc.

I hope that's clarified my position somewhat? I think I misunderstood some of your points, and vice versa. Also I am coming from a perspective of churches IME being more sinning than sinned against.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Galloping Granny
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
However many definitions and doctrines are quoted, only God knows who is a Christian and who is not.
Discussing the exact nature and relationship of the persons of the Trinity doesn’t bring you closer to God, does it?
Following the Way that Jesus taught his disciples leads to salvation from materialism, egotism, hatred, prejudice, judgement of others...
After a lifetime of learning to follow that Way, I am quite confident that the Mystery which is God is always present, as a spirit, wherever I am – not sitting on a throne with Jesus sitting at his right hand, not in the form of a much larger than life Middle Eastern potentate.
And if there is a life after death, which I don’t assume (all cultures have hoped for one, and imagined it in their own terms) – that could be great; the thought of eternity could be terrifying but maybe time would cease to exist.
Some shipmates might not regard me as a Christian but that’s okay. Some of the congregation I belong to probably have similar views to mine and some not, but they just get on with living the Way of Jesus. We don’t have gatekeepers (‘If you don’t accept all our interpretations of scripture we don’t want you.’)
What more is needed?

GG

A very sagacious post. Something similar happened to me; it dawned on me a few years ago, that God is here.

This seems to throw the cat among the pigeons; in particular, what is the point of religions? There is the old joke that if religion is the solution, what is the problem?

Of course, if God is here, there are still things which religions might accomplish, such as providing bonds between people, providing a fuller picture of God's actions, and so on.

I suppose also, that God might be here, but I might not be, and so on. In other words, there might still be an alienation between me and God, although usually, the idea that God is here is supposed to overcome that, since here is all there is, and it is filled (and fulfilled) by God.

Hmm. Difficult to really address this on a forum.

One of our clergy's opening prayer on Sunday begins with something like this "God has been with us in many ways and in many places during the week. But now we are gathered as a family of God's people..."

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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quetzalcoatl
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Galloping Granny wrote:

One of our clergy's opening prayer on Sunday begins with something like this "God has been with us in many ways and in many places during the week. But now we are gathered as a family of God's people..."

That's a very nice prayer; I suppose I came to see the second bit as optional.

Well, I don't think God's presence is conditional on me or my activities. On the other hand, humans are rather Pavlovian, so they react well to a system of reward and punishment!

Also, perhaps we find God's presence intolerable, so we think of distractions.

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W Hyatt
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, I don't think God's presence is conditional on me or my activities.

I completely agree, but I also think that my awareness of his presence and the effect it has on me is conditional on me and my activities.

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, I don't think God's presence is conditional on me or my activities.

I completely agree, but I also think that my awareness of his presence and the effect it has on me is conditional on me and my activities.
Yes, a very interesting topic, but probably going beyond the remit of this thread.

There is a tradition of self-annihilation or self-abnegation in various religions, including Buddhism also, although not with a view to finding God.

Simone Weil writes about this in interesting ways, but I am forgetting the detail; killing the self basically.

"We must consent through love to cease to be anything, so that God can become everything again."

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Galloping Granny
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Galloping Granny wrote:

One of our clergy's opening prayer on Sunday begins with something like this "God has been with us in many ways and in many places during the week. But now we are gathered as a family of God's people..."

That's a very nice prayer; I suppose I came to see the second bit as optional.

Well, I don't think God's presence is conditional on me or my activities. On the other hand, humans are rather Pavlovian, so they react well to a system of reward and punishment!

Also, perhaps we find God's presence intolerable, so we think of distractions.

The second bit does indicate why this bunch of people have come to this place on a particular morning.

Surely the whole heaven and hell thing arises out of the human conviction that virtue should be rewarded and evil punished, and it doesn't always seem to happen in this life.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Galloping Granny
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Galloping Granny wrote:

One of our clergy's opening prayer on Sunday begins with something like this "God has been with us in many ways and in many places during the week. But now we are gathered as a family of God's people..."

That's a very nice prayer; I suppose I came to see the second bit as optional.

Well, I don't think God's presence is conditional on me or my activities. On the other hand, humans are rather Pavlovian, so they react well to a system of reward and punishment!

Also, perhaps we find God's presence intolerable, so we think of distractions.

The second bit does indicate why this bunch of people have come to this place on a particular morning.

Surely the whole heaven and hell thing arises out of the human conviction that virtue should be rewarded and evil punished, and it doesn't always seem to happen in this life.

Having trouble with a weak signal; sorry if this gets repeated.

GG

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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113

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Galloping Granny

Fair enough. My sardonic comment about Pavlov was because I was thinking about rewards and punishments amongst animals. As with many other things, such as empathy, animals seem to have anticipated us. Some of them exhibit a sense of fairness, and punish infringements; virtue and vice!

However, we should certainly not get into another stramash about animal proto-morality.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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I'm having trouble with the concern about "works based Christianity". I think "grace based Christianity" is over-rated and over-emphasized. I think it enables purportedly Christian leaders, to be demonstrably cruel in their policies, with the comfort that God isn't very worried about what they do. Even those who are avowed atheists are caught up in our social, historical and cultural milieu that enables feeling okay about themselves when they behave abominably. I'm thinking of everything from direct lies that promote the killing of people in wars and the speculation by bankers which wiped out savings and jobs for starters. Works matter. Shouldn't people be damned for them as well as saved through them? Adam was.

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W Hyatt
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I saw a truck today for a business whose name included the adjective "Christian" and it occurred to me that no one expects it to be a reference either to the quality of the owners' faith or to the merit of the work done, but rather to the principles by which the owners claim to conduct their business, presumably things like honesty, integrity, and service. It seems to me that the distinction between grace-based and works-based Christianity has served its historical purpose.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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# 15560

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What plumber would Jesus call?

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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/

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