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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Psssh - don't let mere facts get in the way of a good old whine about bloody foreigners!

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Most of Blackburn's Muslims were born in Britain.

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Do you think that makes them less forrign to the sort of mind that goes on about this sort of thing?

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

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Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
I agree its Ok for bishops to raise concerns BUT I don't agree if that is simply in order to keep church structures functioning. The concern the bishop should then raise is have we a realistic structure, or are we putting too much effort time etc. into tryng to keep a large creaky ship afloat.

I suspect, sadly, you are right that bishops are raising concern because they want the structures as they are to remain functioning.

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Actually, I think I've misunderstood you. I thought you wanted CofE structures to remain the same, because earlier you said this:

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Two things come into my mind. Firstly there does seem a priority given to numbers and youth, as above truth and integrity. That may sound a bit harsh, but I'm not happy about church is declining so get on with Alpha groups, adopt the culture of the day and change to appeal to youth approach. This (Alpha etc) approach seems to be quite different in teaching from much traditional Anglicanism.

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Will 'traditional Anglicanism' be able to maintain its traditional character if its structures are unsustainable? How about if the parish system goes? If the CofE has to be disestablished because too few people identify with it will it still be able to present a 'traditional' face to the world?

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Some of my Orthodox friends think that the CofE is dead in the water and beyond redemption ... but they would do, because most of them left the CofE to become Orthodox ...

I think there is a distinctively Anglican 'flavour' or character that I wouldn't want to see die out ... and whilst I'm not against Alpha or 'Messy Church' and so on per se, I do worry that something is being lost in the current obsession about bums on seats and the dumbing down that certain clergy seem to think is necessary to achieve and sustain that.

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Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:
Alpha courses and the theology it teaches is within Anglicanism (and beyond it) but its not representative of a liberal, bible, tradition and reason, tradition which it seems to me to be so part of the Anglican tradition.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Magersfontein Lugg

Perhaps the way to foil the evangelical Alpha course agenda is for the liberal, traditional and rational Anglicans to take on the task of evangelising in their own way. Otherwise, by 2050 the evangelicals might end up dominating English Anglicanism by default.

My thinking is that disestablishment might reduce the evangelical share, since it could encourage a number of evangelical congregations to leave the CofE. But I haven't seen any scholarship that considers this possibility.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think what Magersfontein Lugg is saying, Seekingsister, is that whilst the kind of theology promoted by the Alpha course can and does exist within Anglicanism - and beyond it (which is how and why Alpha has been taken up well beyond the Anglican constituency) it is somewhat at odds with what one might consider the broad, mainstream of Anglicanism.

I think that's indisputable....
Meanwhile, SvitlanaV2 raises a provocative but fair point about more liberal or traditional Anglicans getting off their arses and doing something if they want to prevent those nasty evangelicals from hijacking their nice, liberal, cuddly compline church ...

I don't know how they can do that - without turning into in-your-face evangelicals in some way themselves ...

Unless it's by quietly modelling 'a more excellent way ...'

Is that a law of diminishing returns though?

It's easy to knock evangelicalism and I do it myself - despite of, or because of, my evangelical background.

But the fact is that many liberals and traditionalists one meets these days started out evangelical and gradually moved in a more broader or more traditional direction later.

Love 'em or loathe them we need the evangelicals.

I knock 'em here on these boards at times but I'm grateful to my evangelical background.

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:


The problem is well-known and hardly unique to the C of E. I am not terribly convinced that the Bishop's proposed solution will have that much effect.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... I know what you said - that the Church in Wales manages without being established.

I grew up in South Wales.

People still act as if the Church in Wales is Established.

I spoke to an Archdeacon from North Wales recently and he agreed with me.

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Perhaps that is more because the CinW is the one that is organically in continuity with David and all the other original saints that first evangelised Wales, and all the others aren't.


On the more general subject, in its long history, the Christian Church in these islands has had some very low periods. From about 450-650 it seems to have largely disappeared in the eastern half of the country, it was at a very low ebb in the aftermath of evicting the Danes in the 10th century. It had a very rough spell between 1525 and about 1580. Between 1642 and 1651 its members were killing each other off. It was very complacent in 1750.


The first thing I would say is that restructuring and programmes aren't a solution for anything. They may be a necessary tool for doing something else, but unless you know what that something else is and have designed them so as to achieve that, both are a waste of effort and an illusion.


Second, I've heard a lot of sermons over the last 60+ years and remember very little from any of them. Nevertheless, a few years ago, the Bishop of Swindon preached one that has stuck in my memory because it was saying something that really is important. It was that the church is about God. It isn't really about anything else.

Unless we really believe that and live by it, it is no wonder if we don't have much effect.


Third, many of the revivals before the 1520s were triggered and delivered by the religious. If we are traditional Prods, we may not recognise this. I'm not even sure the Oxford Movement got it. They seem very often to have concentrated on reviving the trappings of the religious life, the recreation of a sort of C15 dream-world. But the one thing that is really fundamental to the religious call is a 100% commitment to it.

Christianity is not another leisure activity like stamp-collecting, singing in a choir or going to the gym. There are many ways of living the faith, but at the core of none of the effective ones is 'you can take it or leave it'.

The revival when it happens will be founded in this. There will be quite a lot of people who will find that unsettling. If it happens while I am still alive, there will probably be some aspects that I will find unsettling. But so be it.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure you are strictly correct on the preoccupations of the Oxford Movement. We are most aware of the trappings as these have come down to us and what most of us would regard as the Movement's legacy.

I was at the Fellowship of St Alban and St Sergius in the summer and it was observed that a whole plethora of religious communities and orders came out of late 19th century Anglicanism ... there were retreat houses, monasteries, convents, urban missions ...

Most of them have died out which is why we aren't aware of them. For whatever reason they proved largely unsustainable in the 20th century British climate and soil.

If you go to Llantwit Major in South Wales they'll still tell you about nuns and other religious who settled there in the early 20th century and who lived in poverty and obscurity - doing good and helping the people of the industrial valleys to the north.

I have no idea why these things haven't continued but they were there. There was more to the Oxford Movement than tat, lace, gin and sodomy.

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
One of the problems I have with the Bishop of Blackburn's pronouncements is that they come from a pretty unreconstructed conservative evangelical, who has not shown much sign so far that he appreciates the nuances of engaging afresh in a post-Christian society.

On the surface, his analysis is reasonably accurate - though hardly ground-breaking, as many people have been pointing this out for some years. The stats don't lie. What matters most is what (if anything) to do about it.

I'm also a little concerned about the message that he gives the existing congregations in the diocese - which is, effectively, "You've been doing it all wrong so far and now I'm going to put you right".

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Most evangelical Anglicans I know would be broadly in favour of disestablishment.

I can't see how establishment or disestablishment would affect Anglican evangelicals one way or another.

The Church in Wales is often seen as generally 'High Church' but, on a smaller scale, it has all the nuances and shades of Anglican opinion that you'd find in the CofE or most other churches within the Anglican Communion.
There wasn't a mass exodus of evangelical Anglicans when the Church in Wales was disestablished.

I see no reason why there would be if the Church of England were disestablished this year, next year or in 20 or 30 years time.

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I suspect some evangelical vicars are in the C of E for the employment package and take much else loosely. They seem in some places to me to run their own shows with only an occasional nod to the diocesan authorities.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[QUOTE] ....the country at large might not want to be officially represented by Christians like that....

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
OTOH, there's Magersfontein Lugg's comment that

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I suspect some evangelical vicars are in the C of E for the employment package and take much else loosely. They seem in some places to me to run their own shows with only an occasional nod to the diocesan authorities.

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Would you agree with this?

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Originally posted by Enoch:
To refer to the general population as "not over happy at being represented by" is a very odd verb for anyone to choose. 'Represented by' to whom? God? Parliament? Archbishop Justin Welby? Their neighbours?

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:


What really came through was - people want to participate in ways that are meaningful to them, not just walk in sit down and go home ...

They want more outreach to the community like building ramps for houses of poor folks with a new disability, reaching out to new widows/widowers with practical help like yard care, take part in the local soup kitchen.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've heard it said that the CofE acts vicariously, doing Christianity on behalf of people who don't wish to practise themselves, but who identify as Christians.

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It's also said to be 'representative' of faith communities in England generally. Perhaps most visibly, it has the task of providing public religious ceremony on a civic level. These, to me, are examples of the CofE 'representing' the nation.

If the CofE really doesn't have this representative purpose then it's hard to see why establishment is valuable. ...

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Originally posted by Enoch:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've heard it said that the CofE acts vicariously, doing Christianity on behalf of people who don't wish to practise themselves, but who identify as Christians.

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Some of those who fit that description may use that as a convenient way of thinking that lets them off the hook. It is though, an approach that is likely to lead to a very nasty shock shortly after death.

I'd hope there's no one in any official position who would advocate this.

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]I support establishment, but IMHO it has little to do with providing religious services to the state. It's about representing God in Christ to the state and the community, getting across the fundamental idea that in any exercise of power or doing any sort of service, one is accountable to God and that this applies just as much to those who say they don't believe in Him.

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I've once heard a very high-church vicar with a very high-church view of the Eucharist describe a Holy Communion service as offered on behalf of the whole of his parish. However, I don't think the 10,000 odd residents who never go to that parish church or anywhere else, are even aware of the times of services, yet alone what goes on there.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... Otherwise, it's not clear to me how the CofE get its 'fundamental idea' across.

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Originally posted by Enoch:


1. The meltdown in attendance follows from the majority of the population's walking on by, not believing or being interested. If it merely derived from too many indecisive, bearded, fence sitters, the other denominations would be bulging at the seams with disaffected members of the CofE. Chapels would be open and booming, not converted into private houses, gurdwaras or minimarts.

2. I've once heard a very high-church vicar with a very high-church view of the Eucharist describe a Holy Communion service as offered on behalf of the whole of his parish. However, I don't think the 10,000 odd residents who never go to that parish church or anywhere else, are even aware of the times of services, yet alone what goes on there.

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Originally posted by Pomona:
I can't speak for Enoch of course but I would be surprised if that was the case. I would be inclined to agree with the priest but would certainly not view only that Eucharist as valid. I think I've said before that while I see the parish priest's role as being for everyone in the parish, that's not to the exclusion of other churches in the area.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
The meltdown in attendance follows from the majority of the population's walking on by, not believing or being interested.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But then, ExclamationMark, I could also point you to Baptists who wouldn't consider your local Anglican colleague 'real' because he says prayers out of a book rather than making them up extemporaneously each time ...

These things cut both ways, I'm afraid.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
This is a whopping big generalisation but British Baptists are generally pretty benign compared with some of their US cousins.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
In my experience, the passive:aggressive Baptists tend to reserve their aggression for among themselves.

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But then, ExclamationMark, I could also point you to Baptists who wouldn't consider your local Anglican colleague 'real' because he says prayers out of a book rather than making them up extemporaneously each time ...

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Originally posted by Ashworth:

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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
One of the problems I have with the Bishop of Blackburn's pronouncements is that they come from a pretty unreconstructed conservative evangelical, who has not shown much sign so far that he appreciates the nuances of engaging afresh in a post-Christian society.

On the surface, his analysis is reasonably accurate - though hardly ground-breaking, as many people have been pointing this out for some years. The stats don't lie. What matters most is what (if anything) to do about it.

I'm also a little concerned about the message that he gives the existing congregations in the diocese - which is, effectively, "You've been doing it all wrong so far and now I'm going to put you right".

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I was quite surprised to hear of some the Bishop of Blackburn's comments because my experience of the Blackburn Diocese has been very well attended churches. However, all my visits to churches in the diocese have been in fairly wealthy areas along the coast around, Lytham, St Annes and Blackpool. Yes, there are some quite middle class, wealthy areas,of Blackpool away from the town centre!

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Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:

I wonder. I wonder if these retirement places renew their elderly congregations. That is yes older people die but slightly less older move in on retirement.

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Originally posted by Magersfontein Lugg:

I wonder. I wonder if these retirement places renew their elderly congregations. That is yes older people die but slightly less older move in on retirement.

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Originally posted by Angloid:


I remember an archdeacon some 40+ years ago bewailing a church he had just visited where all the congregation were older than he was. I don't think that particular parish has closed; churches have a way of renewing themselves. And those that don't, well, times change.

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But then, ExclamationMark, I could also point you to Baptists who wouldn't consider your local Anglican colleague 'real' because he says prayers out of a book rather than making them up extemporaneously each time ...

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Or, even more relevantly, claiming that your baptism is invalid because you were baptised as an infant rather than as an adult.

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