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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Do Bright and Light parties fulfil a need?
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Moreover, all the stuff about demons and zombies isn't real anyway (for some reason it seems this needs to be said).
Zombies don't seem to be, no (at least the cinematic version rather than actual voudou), but I believe demons are real, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Well, here they identify themselves with 'the Celts' and in keeping with their traditions, faith and thinking. So the logic goes that they are animal loving, nature honouring, peace loving, all believe in the same deities, and their major feast day happens to be Halloween. Now if that isn't just the biggest pile of steaming bullshit; well, I don't know what is.
Not sure where "here" is, but there are certainly an array of traditions in the UK, the US, etc. I know it's only Wikipedia, but some basic background is here.
One could say the same kind of thing about us as Christians being identified with the Jews and then drawing distinctions between our faith as it has evolved over the last 2000 years and the actions often shown in the Old Testament. Having Celtic roots does not mean "behaving exactly as the Celts did X centuries ago."
And, again, I think the Wiccans and other pagans I know--and we have some here on the Ship, by the way--would rightly take offense at their beliefs being called that.
[ 03. November 2014, 18:01: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Samhain is a quarter day--the midpoints between solstices and equinoxes. Same with Beltaine and so forth.
I don't know why I bother posting. Yes, it is a midpoint between equinox and solstice. No, it isn't a quarter day. It's a cross quarter day. Midway between the quarter days which are around the equinoxes and solstices.
As I posted above.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Pagan =/= Wiccan. Basically Wicca is a modern reimagining of a mix of various Celtic and Northern European religion. Pagans follow many different deities and/or pantheons, eg Kemetic (Egyptian) deities, Greek deities, Norse deities etc. So there's nothing Pagan about Samhain, it's Wiccan and not Pagan. Some Pagans are both Pagan and Wiccan but most are not. So as Mudfrog says, you do get some Luciferan Pagans (who follow a Hebraic pantheon of sorts) but they do not identify Lucifer as Satan and would not celebrate Samhain.
And as Penny rightly says, Samhain is not a quarter day at all. The quarter days are Lady Day (aka the Annunciation, 25th of March), Midsummer (feast of St John the Baptist, 24th of June), Michaelmas (St Michael and All Angels, 29th September) and Christmas. The cross-quarter days are Candlemas, May Day, Lammas and All Saints. Samhain was a Celtic quarter day until the 5th century but is now roughly a cross-quarter day.
Lady Day used to be the 6th of April which is why the tax year starts then.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Actually, Wiccans are pagans, but not all pagans are Wiccans. "Pagan" is an umbrella term here. Christians are monotheists but not all monotheists are Christians, etc.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Actually, Lady Day was the 25th March - 9 months bofore the 25th December - but, when the calendar was changed, the date for the tax year was moved so that the year in which the change happened was the full 365 days. Before that change, the day labelled the 25th March was falling on what would have been the 6th April if the year hadn't got out of kilter with reality, but it wasn't called the 6th April.
[ 03. November 2014, 22:19: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, Wiccans are pagans, but not all pagans are Wiccans. "Pagan" is an umbrella term here. Christians are monotheists but not all monotheists are Christians, etc.
Paganism refers to historical and/or indigenous religions. Wicca is Neo-Paganism since it is not either, but a modern mixture of various Pagan beliefs. Eg, use of the more general God and Goddess/Lord and Lady figures as opposed to actual Pagan deities. Pagans do not recognise Wicca as being actually Pagan.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Although I mostly agree with the summary you gave here, I don't think there is always a uniformity of terminology. I've heard Wiccans denying that they are Neo-Pagans. It can be confusing for outsiders sometimes.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Paganism refers to historical and/or indigenous religions. Wicca is Neo-Paganism since it is not either, but a modern mixture of various Pagan beliefs. Eg, use of the more general God and Goddess/Lord and Lady figures as opposed to actual Pagan deities. Pagans do not recognise Wicca as being actually Pagan.
"Pagan" has many meanings, and since Wiccans often self-identify as pagans, I will call them what they prefer.
(Again, not to derail the thread, since it's getting further and further afield of the actual thread topic.)
[ 04. November 2014, 01:23: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Actually, Wiccans are pagans, but not all pagans are Wiccans. "Pagan" is an umbrella term here. Christians are monotheists but not all monotheists are Christians, etc.
Paganism refers to historical and/or indigenous religions. Wicca is Neo-Paganism since it is not either, but a modern mixture of various Pagan beliefs. Eg, use of the more general God and Goddess/Lord and Lady figures as opposed to actual Pagan deities. Pagans do not recognise Wicca as being actually Pagan.
The parallels with Mormonism are choking.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The parallels with Mormonism are choking.
I thought of that too--or even more mainstream churches, as I've known some Fundamentalists who really will try to argue the same way about the Roman Catholic Church as about the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. (And, if they had known anything about Anglican/Episcopal stuff, they'd have lumped in the Episcopal church with the RCCs.)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The parallels with Mormonism are choking.
I thought of that too--or even more mainstream churches, as I've known some Fundamentalists who really will try to argue the same way about the Roman Catholic Church as about the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. (And, if they had known anything about Anglican/Episcopal stuff, they'd have lumped in the Episcopal church with the RCCs.)
Okay now you've lost me. Are you saying that Fundamentalists will say that the RCC is not an ancient faith, but a modern mish-mash of bits and pieces from other ancient faiths? Because that's what Mormonism is, and that's what Wicca is. But it's sure as hell not what the RCC is.
By the bye, I had a friend who was a real pagan (I called him "paleopagan" and he thought it was funny but didn't deny the term), and he referred to Wiccans as tree-hugging, crystal-sucking Smurf worshippers, but that was just him. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) He was by the way, with one or two exceptions, the most thoroughly Christian man I have ever met, as that term used to be used for someone's moral qualities.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Don't ask, Mousethief, you really don't want to go there ...
I've come across fundamentalist tracts and websites that suggest that the RC 'cult of the Virgin Mary' derives from pagan models ... or even some kind of mother-god worshipping sect on the distant Planet Zarg (ok, I made that last bit up) ...
But yes, there are some fundies around who portray the RCC as some kind of relatively late development of all many of mish-mash nefariousness.
Like you would not believe.
Or perhaps you would.
Think Chick Tracts on speed.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
posted by Chast:
quote:
Not sure where "here" is, but there are certainly an array of traditions in the UK, the US, etc.
'Here' is Ireland, and sadly 'here' they are all of a type; dressing up in hobbit costumes, hugging trees, trying to twist Halloween into something that it never really was, repeating some asinine cliche about stuff coming back times three and worshipping the spirits of the elements. They very often refer to themselves as true Irish Celts and as a people returning to their ancient religious roots. Now if they really wanted to do this they should return to multiple local deities (some not so very nice), paint their faces blue, develop a fascination for heads minus the body, get involved in protracted and bloody warfare to defend their gods honour, bankrupt and endanger entire villages just to build massive stone tombs (not that they aren't impressive mind) and set about divining the future via some poor old buggers intestines; but no, they would much rather re-imagine it all - and that is the key word.
Some things just shouldn't be revisited because right back in the first place they were just plain old shit. If you're going to reimagine something then just go ahead and make it up, just don't try and pretend it's really ancient and mysterious and a return to 'the good old days'.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There were always reasons why not being pagan any more worked back in the day. And it clearly wasn't always not very saintly Olafs and so on waving swords about like IS, because it stuck.
I feel it a good idea to point out the association of the burial of large numbers of babies associated with temples to Venus. And bog bodies.
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trouty
Shipmate
# 13497
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Don't ask, Mousethief, you really don't want to go there ...
I've come across fundamentalist tracts and websites that suggest that the RC 'cult of the Virgin Mary' derives from pagan models ... or even some kind of mother-god worshipping sect on the distant Planet Zarg (ok, I made that last bit up) ...
But yes, there are some fundies around who portray the RCC as some kind of relatively late development of all many of mish-mash nefariousness.
Like you would not believe.
Or perhaps you would.
Think Chick Tracts on speed.
As all kinds of 'pagan' religions had cults of virgin mothers at the time of Jesus' birth I don't think that it is going too far to say that the RCC's infatuation with virgin worship derives from such a source. You wouldn't have to be a fundamentalist maniac to draw that conclusion.
Posts: 205 | From: Somewhere out there | Registered: Mar 2008
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Posted by Trouty:
quote:
As all kinds of 'pagan' religions had cults of virgin mothers at the time of Jesus' birth I don't think that it is going too far to say that the RCC's infatuation with virgin worship derives from such a source. You wouldn't have to be a fundamentalist maniac to draw that conclusion.
Lol, yes, and I'm sure it had nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that she gave birth to the Christ.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mousethief: Are you saying that Fundamentalists will say that the RCC is not an ancient faith, but a modern mish-mash of bits and pieces from other ancient faiths?
Don't underestimate what Fundamentalists will say.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Zombies don't seem to be, no (at least the cinematic version rather than actual voudou), but I believe demons are real, yes.
Really? Little red guys with tritons or pitchforks? Have you seen one?
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Zombies don't seem to be, no (at least the cinematic version rather than actual voudou), but I believe demons are real, yes.
Really? Little red guys with tritons or pitchforks? Have you seen one?
Um, yeah, because if there are demons, they must have tritons or pitchforks. So if there are no beings with pitchforks, there are no demons. Bit of a fallacy there, one that existed in Lewis's day, so it's not even original...
"If any faint suspicion of your existence begins to arise in his mind, suggest to him a picture of something in red tights, and persuade him that since he cannot believe in that (it is an old textbook method of confusing them) he therefore cannot believe in you." --Screwtape
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Don't ask, Mousethief, you really don't want to go there ...
I've come across fundamentalist tracts and websites that suggest that the RC 'cult of the Virgin Mary' derives from pagan models ... or even some kind of mother-god worshipping sect on the distant Planet Zarg (ok, I made that last bit up) ...
But yes, there are some fundies around who portray the RCC as some kind of relatively late development of all many of mish-mash nefariousness.
Like you would not believe.
Or perhaps you would.
Think Chick Tracts on speed.
As all kinds of 'pagan' religions had cults of virgin mothers at the time of Jesus' birth I don't think that it is going too far to say that the RCC's infatuation with virgin worship derives from such a source. You wouldn't have to be a fundamentalist maniac to draw that conclusion.
That might hold some water if the RCC actually worshipped the BVM.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Since Chick Tracts never seemed to be overly concerned about factual accuracy when describing the evils of whatever was their target, I don't expect "Chick Tracts on speed" would be any better. It's all basically hysteria, and hysterical reactions don't produce logical actions. Someone just needs a good slap across the face.
Quite like some of the reactions to Halloween. Children dress up as witches, therefore they're practising witchcraft. Quick, set up a "bright and light" party to save them from having to be burned at the stake for performing satanic rituals.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:
Paganism refers to historical and/or indigenous religions. Wicca is Neo-Paganism since it is not either, but a modern mixture of various Pagan beliefs. Eg, use of the more general God and Goddess/Lord and Lady figures as opposed to actual Pagan deities. Pagans do not recognise Wicca as being actually Pagan.
That seems to largely depend on the pagans, in my experience. A fair few practitioners of religions inspired by ancient northern European religion reject the term Pagan in favour of Heathen, for example. Plenty of non-Wiccan pagans will keep Samhain too, particularly those with an interest in pre-Christian British religion. Most pagans I know acknowledge that their religion is not a continuation of ancient practices but a reconstruction using the symbology and mythology of those cultures.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The parallels with Mormonism are choking.
I thought of that too--or even more mainstream churches, as I've known some Fundamentalists who really will try to argue the same way about the Roman Catholic Church as about the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. (And, if they had known anything about Anglican/Episcopal stuff, they'd have lumped in the Episcopal church with the RCCs.)
Okay now you've lost me. Are you saying that Fundamentalists will say that the RCC is not an ancient faith, but a modern mish-mash of bits and pieces from other ancient faiths? Because that's what Mormonism is, and that's what Wicca is. But it's sure as hell not what the RCC is.
No, I meant (and misunderstood you to mean) the way that Fundamentalists often regard the RCC, the Mormons, and the JWs all in one lump as "not really Christian, but pseudo-Christian cults"--and that in comparison to the way some pagan reconstructionists may regard Wicca as "not really pagan."
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Most mainstream Christians regard JWs and Mormons that way though? It's not a fundie thing.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
My point was that within Christian denominations, we have some that (Fundies) will say that others (the RCC) aren't "really" Christian, and lump them in with groups that even the vast majority of Christians regard as "outside." (And, if said Fundies really understood Anglican/Episcopal stuff, and for that matter Eastern Orthodoxy, they'd lump all of us in with the RCCs too, what with all of our doctrines about the Sacraments and the saints and so on.)
Though I think it could be argued that the Mormons and JWs are still, at least in a technical sense*, Christian--just, by the doctrinal standards accepted by most of us, heretical. But they're heretics within a Christian context, not Muslim or Hindu or such.
In the same way, I would argue that the way that some pagan reconstructionists claim that Wicca is not pagan is analogous to the way that some Christian fundamentalists regard the RCC.
* (And for that matter--even if Mormons and JWs have what orthodox teaching (and I) believe to be a terribly confused notion of Who Jesus is, and His precise nature--if we were all back in ancient Rome, we could still have been martyred for His sake. I can't believe that afterward He would have said, "Sorry, you died in My Name rather than worship Caesar, but you didn't have the proper doctrine of the Trinity nailed down in your head, so off to Hell you go...")
[ 04. November 2014, 20:08: Message edited by: ChastMastr ]
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Arethosemyfeet: Most pagans I know acknowledge that their religion is not a continuation of ancient practices but a reconstruction using the symbology and mythology of those cultures.
You seem to have had more luck than I. I have respect for (Neo-)Paganism, but I just seem to meet the weird ones.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
It's not a fundie thing to regard Mormons and JWs as 'marginal' or heretical - but it's certainly a pretty fundie thing to lump the RCC alongside such groups.
I've certainly come across plenty of more fundamentalist or strongly conservative evangelicals who would regard the RCC as some kind of 'cult' and not a 'true church' in their definition.
Whilst I've heard liberal Anglicans and others express strong misgivings about the RCC I've yet to come across any who'd lump it in with the Mormons and JWs etc.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's not a fundie thing to regard Mormons and JWs as 'marginal' or heretical - but it's certainly a pretty fundie thing to lump the RCC alongside such groups.
Although it may even be broader than that. One of my pet peeves in the univ. course I teach is when students try to make a comparison between "Catholics and Christians" (as if two separate entities) for the reasons you allude to. The interesting thing, though, is that my Catholic students are just as prone to making that comparison as my evangelical students. Which is most likely due to the way evangelicals have dominated American Christian culture and appropriated the term as their own, but still, disconcerting to say the least...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The interesting thing, though, is that my Catholic students are just as prone to making that comparison as my evangelical students.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
The interesting thing, though, is that my Catholic students are just as prone to making that comparison as my evangelical students.
Reminds me of the following exchange I heard at third hand (but from a reliable source):
Q: Are you a Christian?
A: No, I'm an Anglican, thank God!
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Arethosemyfeet: Most pagans I know acknowledge that their religion is not a continuation of ancient practices but a reconstruction using the symbology and mythology of those cultures.
You seem to have had more luck than I. I have respect for (Neo-)Paganism, but I just seem to meet the weird ones.
The nutty ones are certainly out there, but I've only encountered them in the deeper reaches of the internet. You know, the ones who claim that they're continuing Britain's ancient religion passed down to them by generations of secret practitioners since pre-saxon times; that millions of pagans were burnt at the stake in the middle ages etc. etc. My pagan friends are somewhat keen to distance themselves, much as I tend to be keen to distance myself from YECs.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Zombies don't seem to be, no (at least the cinematic version rather than actual voudou), but I believe demons are real, yes.
Really? Little red guys with tritons or pitchforks? Have you seen one?
Um, yeah, because if there are demons, they must have tritons or pitchforks. So if there are no beings with pitchforks, there are no demons. Bit of a fallacy there, one that existed in Lewis's day, so it's not even original...
"If any faint suspicion of your existence begins to arise in his mind, suggest to him a picture of something in red tights, and persuade him that since he cannot believe in that (it is an old textbook method of confusing them) he therefore cannot believe in you." --Screwtape
Clearly I was talking about the context of Halloween. Screwtape is a work of fiction, not a lexicon of creatures in or out of the world.
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
My pagan friends are somewhat keen to distance themselves, much as I tend to be keen to distance myself from YECs.
That's perhaps the best analogy here, I think.
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Screwtape is a work of fiction, not a lexicon of creatures in or out of the world.
Of course, but it's meant to make a point, and I agree with that point. Lewis even says a very similar thing, wholly non-fictionally, in the foreword, about how believing in spirits is not the same (and never has been the same among thoughtful people) as believing that the pictorial representations of them are the same as the reality.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
ChastMastr wrote:
quote:
* (And for that matter--even if Mormons and JWs have what orthodox teaching (and I) believe to be a terribly confused notion of Who Jesus is, and His precise nature--if we were all back in ancient Rome, we could still have been martyred for His sake. I can't believe that afterward He would have said, "Sorry, you died in My Name rather than worship Caesar, but you didn't have the proper doctrine of the Trinity nailed down in your head, so off to Hell you go...")
I think there's a logical fallacy in there somewhere. Not sure what the techincal name would be, but it essentially amounts to saying that, in looking to define a group, we can take as authoritative the opinion of people who want to kill members of that group.
Whereas, in fact, both the Roman persecutors and the avant la lettre JWs could share the same misunderstanding of Christianity.
Imagine that there is a sect somewhere whose esoteric interpretation of the New Testament leads them to conclude that incest is a sacrament, Asian people are the spawn of Satan, and Jesus was actually a giant jackrabbit from the Andrmoeda galaxy taken human form.
Now, suppose a crazed gunman is going around asking people "Are you a Christian?", and blowing away the people who answer yes. So, he approaches a member of the esoteric sect, asks them his usual question, and shoots the guy's head off after getting an affirmative answer.
All Christians now have to accept racist, extraterrestrial jackrabbit-worshipping incest aficianadoes as fellow believers?
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Imagine that there is a sect somewhere whose esoteric interpretation of the New Testament leads them to conclude that incest is a sacrament, Asian people are the spawn of Satan, and Jesus was actually a giant jackrabbit from the Andrmoeda galaxy taken human form.
Now, suppose a crazed gunman is going around asking people "Are you a Christian?", and blowing away the people who answer yes. So, he approaches a member of the esoteric sect, asks them his usual question, and shoots the guy's head off after getting an affirmative answer.
All Christians now have to accept racist, extraterrestrial jackrabbit-worshipping incest aficianadoes as fellow believers?
That's a non sequitur. The more relevant question is whether you'd rather Jesus had mercy on this person, or cast him into the lake of fire?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Enoch wrote:
quote:
That's a non sequitur. The more relevant question is whether you'd rather Jesus had mercy on this person, or cast him into the lake of fire?
But Chast suggested that Jesus should have mercy on the person BECAUSE that person professed faith in Jesus.
quote:
* (And for that matter--even if Mormons and JWs have what orthodox teaching (and I) believe to be a terribly confused notion of Who Jesus is, and His precise nature--if we were all back in ancient Rome, we could still have been martyred for His sake. I can't believe that afterward He would have said, "Sorry, you died in My Name rather than worship Caesar, but you didn't have the proper doctrine of the Trinity nailed down in your head, so off to Hell you go...")
In other words, professing faith in Jesus, in and of itself, should do something to put you in Jesus' good books.
I suppose this TECHNICALLY isn't the same thing as saying that anyone who professes faith in Jesus is a Christian. Chast could be saying that, in addition to Christians and non-Christians, there is a third category "Non-Christians who think they're Christians, and therefore should be saved just like Christians are."
If that's what Chast was positing, than fair enough. But it would make for an interesting form of quasi-universalism. Salvation for anyone who thinks they're a Christian, correctly or otherwise.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Stetson: Salvation for anyone who thinks they're a Christian, correctly or otherwise.
Isn't it great?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
Oh FFS. We're not talking about jackrabbits here. We're talking about people who believe that, 2000 years ago, this guy showed up who said that everyone should love each other, who is in some special sense the Son of God, who was crucified and raised from the dead, and through whose sacrifice we are forgiven our sins.
I was trying to make the point that they would be martyred for following Christ, regardless of a confused understanding of the details.
(As for Jesus having mercy on people in general, I trust Him to be merciful even to those who haven't heard of Him, not only those who have orthodox or heretical faith in Him. How He will sort it out, I don't know.)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Oh FFS. We're not talking about jackrabbits here. We're talking about people who believe that, 2000 years ago, this guy showed up who said that everyone should love each other, who is in some special sense the Son of God, who was crucified and raised from the dead, and through whose sacrifice we are forgiven our sins.
Actually, in the case of JWs, we're talking about Michael The Archangel, like jackrabbits, a created being, albeit unlike jackrabbits, one who went on o create everything else besides himself
Straight from the horse's mouth
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
(As for Jesus having mercy on people in general, I trust Him to be merciful even to those who haven't heard of Him, not only those who have orthodox or heretical faith in Him. How He will sort it out, I don't know.)
Well, just to be clear, you did seem to know(or at least have a pretty strong inkling) that he would be merciful to those with a heretical faith. But you are agnostic as to how he would treat those who disbelieve out of ignorance?
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Actually, in the case of JWs, we're talking about Michael The Archangel
I know. Hence the word "heretical."
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, just to be clear, you did seem to know(or at least have a pretty strong inkling) that he would be merciful to those with a heretical faith. But you are agnostic as to how he would treat those who disbelieve out of ignorance?
What? ![[Confused]](confused.gif) I trust Him to be merciful, full stop. How He will sort it out, I don't know.
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
I suppose this TECHNICALLY isn't the same thing as saying that anyone who professes faith in Jesus is a Christian. Chast could be saying that, in addition to Christians and non-Christians, there is a third category "Non-Christians who think they're Christians, and therefore should be saved just like Christians are."
If that's what Chast was positing, than fair enough. But it would make for an interesting form of quasi-universalism. Salvation for anyone who thinks they're a Christian, correctly or otherwise.
While I would love to be a universalist, no, I don't think it works that way. I don't even think it works that way for people whose believed theology is impeccably orthodox.
My God, this thread is splintering into such an array of divergent topics... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity
Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I saw a very weird pumpkin tonight - our village firework display also showcases carved lanterns from the school, done for Halloween. There was one with a foetus, in a womb, thumb near its mouth, umbilical cord and placenta. Someone said it could be turning an activity usually concerned with death into one of life.
I didn't like it, clever and well done though it was.
[ 05. November 2014, 21:34: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Stetson: Salvation for anyone who thinks they're a Christian, correctly or otherwise.
Isn't it great?
What about salvation for people who aren't Christians? Correctly or otherwise.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
Screwtape is a work of fiction, not a lexicon of creatures in or out of the world.
I didn't quote Screwtape to lend support to the existence of anything. I quoted Screwtape to show the logical fallacy you had committed.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mousethief: What about salvation for people who aren't Christians? Correctly or otherwise.
Of course. You know that I'm a Universalist.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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