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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Atheists and Holidays
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Being thankful does not require a belief in a deity. Nor does celebrating the coming of spring, midwinter, etc.
IMO, the OP is similar to the argument that there can be no ethics without a belief in God.
Celebrating the seasons doesn't require belief in God. I can see where people are coming from when they say there can be ethics without a belief in God, although IMHO the existence of ethics is a strong argument that God also exists. It would be a tangent but I'll explain why if asked. However, the third one of those, "being thankful does not require a belief in a deity" is the one I don't get. Being thankful requires there being someone, or at least some entity, to thank.
It would be gross conceit to be thanking oneself for all the good things of life. Much though many of the great tyrants of history, Nebuchadnezzar from the readings of the last few days, Uncle Jo, Adolf Hitler or the munificent state might want us to credit them with responsibility for all the good things of life, that's preposterous and we know it. To be thankful requires either a pantheon of assorted gods to thank or the one true one, and I know which of those I find the more convincing.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
As Christmas in the US has been thoroughly secularized, non-Christians celebrating Christmas here aren't the least bit hypocritical.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
It is secularised in Britain as well. And Canada and Australia and......
Keep your eye on the channel listings for our seasonal broadcast of "Christmas is Too Secular"!
ETA: Oh, wait! Is that what this thread is?
[ 11. November 2014, 15:40: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Being thankful does not require a belief in a deity. Nor does celebrating the coming of spring, midwinter, etc.
IMO, the OP is similar to the argument that there can be no ethics without a belief in God.
Celebrating the seasons doesn't require belief in God. I can see where people are coming from when they say there can be ethics without a belief in God, although IMHO the existence of ethics is a strong argument that God also exists. It would be a tangent but I'll explain why if asked. However, the third one of those, "being thankful does not require a belief in a deity" is the one I don't get. Being thankful requires there being someone, or at least some entity, to thank.
It would be gross conceit to be thanking oneself for all the good things of life. Much though many of the great tyrants of history, Nebuchadnezzar from the readings of the last few days, Uncle Jo, Adolf Hitler or the munificent state might want us to credit them with responsibility for all the good things of life, that's preposterous and we know it. To be thankful requires either a pantheon of assorted gods to thank or the one true one, and I know which of those I find the more convincing.
Thankfulness is reflection on one's situation and life and the thanks can be directed towards friends, family, your dog, whatever.
The first definition in the online Merriam-Webster dictionary for "thankful" is
quote:
glad that something has happened or not happened, that something or someone exists, etc
I see no religious requirement there, nor mention of deity.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Ah, but for how many of you is November 11 a holiday of remembrance, as it is here?
The Province of New Brunswick has observed Remembrance Day as a holiday for decades, along with 5 other provinces and 3 territories, and the federal Government is debating making it a National Holiday.
And it is marked as a special day: over one-third of the population of my village attended this morning's ceremony, for instance.
Another mildly amusing instance: one local high school arranges for the senior classes to learn the dance styles of the '40s, and then runs a "hangar dance" with many vets and spouses in attendance. The number of WW2 vets who can still dance is rather low, of course, but a lot of somewhat younger vets have joined in to this event.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Evangeline
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# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
“I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion
He devotes an enormous amount of time and energy to trying to denounce religion and to remove its societal privileges. That's fundamentalism to me, he is so sure that he has the truth he is passionately devoted to spreading his truth to everyone and to making society live by his truth, eg abolishing tax exemption for churches, equating religious education to child abuse, so presumably not only would he ban it but also incarcerate those responsible. Some of hIs acolytes go about obstructing nativity scenes in public spaces and complaining about Christmas decorations (whether or not he is complicit is by Dawkins own logic irrelevant).
Few things. First he and for that matter me are opposed to government endorsement of particular religions. In other words to remove the societal privileges. This will mean removing government permission for nativity scenes on government property when such permission is not forthcoming for other groups; all atheists I know of have no trouble at all with such scenes on the publicly visible property of private people or of churches (though we may criticize some of it as being incredibly tacky, I'm sure ship crew and passengers can think of a few cringe worthy examples). Second tax exemption are problematic especially when it doesn't come with open books; how much in donations is channeled into the pockets of wealthy ministers; Mark Driscoll was taking a parsonage allowance of $200,000/year (for those outside the US that is tax free income for clergy as long as it is spent directly or indirectly on housing [a parsonage allowance or similar is not available to anyone who is not clergy {a military housing allowances is also exempt but it is government money in the first place}]). Tax exemptions for charitable purposes seems fine, but, I'm not sure paying for a prosperity gospel ministry's jet counts as charitable. Third, IIRC the example of religious education he equated with child abuse is telling a little child that their recently deceased friend is burning in hell because the friend was not Christian.
You seem to think you're telling me things I don't already know. I specifically said "public lands" so I don't know what you're on about, I never accused anybody of obstructing displays on private property. The aesthetics of such displays is irrelevant.
There is zero evidence that Dawkins had Mark Driscoll in mind when campaigning for an end to tax exemptions-from what I've read he doesn't seem to distinguish between churches or particular activities and he operates in a British context anyway, so I suspect that Mark Driscoll wasn't top of mind, nor any of the US prosperity preachers.
As far as child abuse goes, he's said plenty about the "evil" of bringing children up in a particular faith, it's not a one-off example of something in particular he calls child abuse.
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Gwalchmai
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# 17802
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Posted
If you add up the numbers of all those who attend a church (any denomination) over Christmas for at least one service, they are still a minority of the population. Christmas must mean something to them, even if it is little more than a sense that Christmas is more than time off work for earring, drinking, shopping and generally overindulging. Even Richard Dawkins must get something out of a carol service, even if it is only cultural.
In any case, the problem with atheism is that you have to define what you don’t believe in, which leaves a great many other possibilities open. I don’t believe in any of the Gods that Richard Dawkins doesn’t believe in and I suspect a good many other Christians don’t believe in those Gods either.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Gwalchmai; I think you misunderstand Dawkins. He doesn't believe in the God you believe in either. He doesn't believe that any Gods, however they are understood, exist.
This "I don't believe in that God either" response to atheists causes them to facepalm, IME. It's Gods they don't believe in, not particular types. I don't believe in blue, pink, purple, green or brown unicorns because I don't believe in unicorns. That doesn't open the door to my believing in tartan unicorns with sequins, just because I've not considered that particular type of unicorn.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
If you add up the numbers of all those who attend a church (any denomination) over Christmas for at least one service, they are still a minority of the population. Christmas must mean something to them, even if it is little more than a sense that Christmas is more than time off work for earring, drinking, shopping and generally overindulging.
I don't see any assumption in this thread that everyone who visits church once a year for carols is actually an atheist. They are mostly, from what I have seen, cultural Christians or lapsed Christians.
If someone identifies themselves as an atheist - yes I think it's odd to turn up to sing Christmas carols at a church. There are more than enough secular Christmas traditions to participate in. And it belies any claim in my view that "I'm just marking the solstice" or whatever silly comments I've seen.
[ 12. November 2014, 07:58: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
SS - Christmas Carols are as much a part of the secular season as holly, robins and granny drinking too much sherry and flirting with your teenage daughter's new boyfriend. We learn and sing then at school, they are played at us every Christmas, well, Advent mostly; they occupy the same place in people's inner mental geography as chestnuts roasting on an open fire and red clothed jolly elves who, if I may misquote Terry Pratchett, talk like they crap Christmas puddings and piddle port.
Most people love singing carols because of this familiarity, because they reinforce the secular Christmas feeling. They might well attend carol services for the same reasons that people in Belle Ringer's thread on Purg attended her mum's church's organ recitals.
I recall being asked to help out our church choir that was singing carols on the village green with a local brass band. It actually proved impossible because the band didn't relate the number of verses they played to the number on the sheet. To them it was just music. Christmas music. So, I think you'll find, it may be to many attenders of carol services. It'd be interesting to do a straw poll on exit and find out how many thought there were too many readings and prayers and not enough carol singing. Quite a few, I'll warrant.
What I don't get with your angle on this is what you really think Dawkins etc. are doing attending carol services. If you don't believe they are doing so completely non-religiously, what do you think they're doing?
[ 12. November 2014, 09:33: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What I don't get with your angle on this is what you really think Dawkins etc. are doing attending carol services. If you don't believe they are doing so completely non-religiously, what do you think they're doing?
I have no idea what they're doing. It's the same reaction I had to the results of a survey that showed a percentage of atheists admit that they pray occasionally.
There's nothing secular about religious carols. They are the very definition of non-secular. A secular Christmas song is "Merry Christmas Everybody" or "Wonderful Christmas Time."
Why it's idiotic for Christians to take comfort from religious practice all year round, but it's OK for Dawkins to sing carols at Christmastime, is honestly beyond me. Don't tell the world that the food I cook is poisonous and then invite yourself around for dinner.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I think it's odd to say that because somebody doesn't believe in a body of ideas, or is critical of them, that thereby the associated art and music and literature is to be shunned. I'm sure many atheists like religious music and art - there is no contradiction here.
I like Aztec art, but I don't subscribe to their ideas or practices.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I've been to a lot of concerts of Muslim music. I'm not Muslim.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think it's odd to say that because somebody doesn't believe in a body of ideas, or is critical of them, that thereby the associated art and music and literature is to be shunned. I'm sure many atheists like religious music and art - there is no contradiction here.
I like Aztec art, but I don't subscribe to their ideas or practices.
Participating in worship is not the same as admiring religious art.
If an atheist is going to call religion rubbish but then sing "Joy to the World" at their parish church, I'm within my rights to point out the hypocrisy. If you want the church to be there for you on Dec 25 then don't spend the rest of the year arguing that it ought not exist, or that Chrsitians ought not express their faith in public (as Dawkins does).
Again - this doesn't describe all atheists.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I remembered that I have atheist friends who sing in choirs, and adore the 'Messiah'. And the number of non-believing Jewish people who still say Kaddish and so on, seems quite large also.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
As far as Christmas is concerned, I don't see why atheists shouldn't celebrate a secular holiday - and call it what they want.
The thing above all that riles me around Christmas is the foolish and oft-voiced nostrum that 'Christmas - its a time for kiddies, isn't it?': I confess I invariably make a tart rejoinder along the lines that Herod thought so too.
As for Easter: why would an atheist want to mark this in any way - and why the invention of a sinister rabbit (aka The Easter Bunny)?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think it's odd to say that because somebody doesn't believe in a body of ideas, or is critical of them, that thereby the associated art and music and literature is to be shunned. I'm sure many atheists like religious music and art - there is no contradiction here.
I like Aztec art, but I don't subscribe to their ideas or practices.
Participating in worship is not the same as admiring religious art.
If an atheist is going to call religion rubbish but then sing "Joy to the World" at their parish church, I'm within my rights to point out the hypocrisy. If you want the church to be there for you on Dec 25 then don't spend the rest of the year arguing that it ought not exist, or that Chrsitians ought not express their faith in public (as Dawkins does).
Again - this doesn't describe all atheists.
But you're moving the goal-posts. Singing carols in a carol service does not mean that you are worshiping at all. I think carols are part of secular culture now.
Now if an atheist took communion, you would have a case.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But you're moving the goal-posts. Singing carols in a carol service does not mean that you are worshiping at all. I think carols are part of secular culture now.
You don't believe singing hymns in a church to be worship?
I've maintained from the first page of the thread that if you go into a church to sing carols, that's participating in worship. I haven't moved anything.
quote:
You won't find me worshipping (yes that's what singing Christmas carols in a church is) with a group I malign the other 364 days of the year.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But you're moving the goal-posts. Singing carols in a carol service does not mean that you are worshiping at all. I think carols are part of secular culture now.
You don't believe singing hymns in a church to be worship?
I've maintained from the first page of the thread that if you go into a church to sing carols, that's participating in worship. I haven't moved anything.
quote:
You won't find me worshipping (yes that's what singing Christmas carols in a church is) with a group I malign the other 364 days of the year.
Well, OK, you're defining singing carols as worship. I think that's highly debatable, and is subjective. For some people, it's not worship; OK, you think they're wrong. How satisfying.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Your assertion was wrong then and is wrong now. Singing carols in a church (or hymns for that matter) is not necessarily worship. I used to sing them as an atheist at primary school because they made me. It wasn't worship. I've performed Mozart's B Minor Mass in a secular choir. It wasn't worship, unless someone knew Latin and wanted it to be.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Now you've brought up school hymns, and I will have to go and retch and feel rather ill. Still, we could make up rude words to them.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I liked "when a knight won his spurs", but, again, religious significance to me at the time - square root of bugger all.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I remembered that I have atheist friends who sing in choirs, and adore the 'Messiah'. And the number of non-believing Jewish people who still say Kaddish and so on, seems quite large also.
For that matter lots of people read, enjoy and are genuinely moved the works of Classical writers without feeling the slightest need to pop out and sacrifice a ram to Zeus. It's entirely possible to be moved aesthetically and emotionally by parts of a religious tradition without signing up for the whole kit and kaboodle. More so, I guess, if that tradition is also tied up with one's childhood memories. Objecting to this is a bit like the law the Emperor Julian passed, forbidding Christians to teach Greek literature.
Either that or it's just a case of: Human beings are not always logical and consistent. Well, spank my arse and call me Charlie, are all your insights into the human condition this profound?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The thing above all that riles me around Christmas is the foolish and oft-voiced nostrum that 'Christmas - its a time for kiddies, isn't it?': I confess I invariably make a tart rejoinder along the lines that Herod thought so too.
In practice it IS for kiddies. The fuss is mostly aimed at them, even in church.
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
If an atheist is going to call religion rubbish but then sing "Joy to the World" at their parish church, I'm within my rights to point out the hypocrisy. If you want the church to be there for you on Dec 25 then don't spend the rest of the year arguing that it ought not exist, or that Chrsitians ought not express their faith in public (as Dawkins does).
Again - this doesn't describe all atheists.
I just think that many atheists aren't quite as rational and as logical as they claim, and sometimes they just want to do things out of nostalgia, aesthetic appreciation, or some other impulse that they can't define.
Dawkins had an upper middle class Anglican upbringing, so I suppose it's to be expected that he'd like a 'traditional' Christmas. There must be lots of atheist of that type. Probably far fewer 'atheist Baptists' and 'atheist Pentecostals', etc. because they simply lose their religious identity when they lose their faith. Moreover, carol services at those churches are probably less iconic and picturesque than the CofE variety, so there's not so much nostalgia.
It's possible that Christmas carols will become less popular as fewer people will have the kind of Anglican background that Dawkins has.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Yes, I think that Dawkins is actually fond of Anglicanism, no doubt partly because of his childhood upbringing.
I keep remembering Larkin's poem 'Aubade', about his fear of death; anyway, he has the very famous line about religion:
That vast moth-eaten musical brocade
Created to pretend we never die.
Well, it's the first line that has become very famous; it seems to combine that mixture of exasperation and affection, which some atheists have towards Anglicanism.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by me quote:
The thing above all that riles me around Christmas is the foolish and oft-voiced nostrum that 'Christmas - its a time for kiddies, isn't it?': I confess I invariably make a tart rejoinder along the lines that Herod thought so too. quote:
posted by Svitlana 2
In practice it IS for kiddies. The fuss is mostly aimed at them, even in church.
Not where I go. We have stuff 'aimed' at all sorts of people and none. The only specific thing with exclusive child participation is the School Carol Service, which is organised by the school and held in church; everything else has participants across the age range from newborns to very elderly.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, OK, you're defining singing carols as worship. I think that's highly debatable, and is subjective. For some people, it's not worship; OK, you think they're wrong. How satisfying.
quote:
Joy to the world! the Saviour reigns;
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills, and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat the sounding joy.
Not worship? Hmm...
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
For that matter lots of people read, enjoy and are genuinely moved the works of Classical writers without feeling the slightest need to pop out and sacrifice a ram to Zeus.
You're supporting my point. It would be considered an odd leap to go from reading Roman mythology to sacrificing rams to Zeus, which would be an act of worship.
In the same way, I think taking the step to go into a church and participate in Christian worship for a major Christian holiday, is beyond simply admiring a cultural practice. It's participating in it directly.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
No, I think the equivalent thing to sacrificing rams is taking communion. Now if an atheist did that, I would certainly be intrigued to know why. But singing carols is quite different.
I guess you could put up a notice at carol services - 'nobody welcome here, who doesn't believe the words'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
No, I think the equivalent thing to sacrificing rams is taking communion. Now if an atheist did that, I would certainly be intrigued to know why. But singing carols is quite different.
I guess you could put up a notice at carol services - 'nobody welcome here, who doesn't believe the words'.
You have the most incredible knack for putting words in people's mouths. Truly.
I said they are free to come, and I am free to point out hypocrisy if they spend the rest of the year criticizing the church. Like Dawkins does.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, OK, you're defining singing carols as worship. I think that's highly debatable, and is subjective. For some people, it's not worship; OK, you think they're wrong. How satisfying.
quote:
Joy to the world! the Saviour reigns;
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills, and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat the sounding joy.
Not worship? Hmm...
Only if you mean it to be. Do you really not accept that people sing these words because they know the carols from childhood without believing a word of it or meaning any of it as worship?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
But Dawkins has said that he loves the Church of England. Personally, I don't find that hypocritical at all, but there we are. People are pretty complicated.
Of course, he is open to criticism from other atheists - which he does get - along the lines that the old lady taking communion is on the slippery slope to the suicide bomber. But then many modern atheists are virulently anti-Islam.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
For that matter lots of people read, enjoy and are genuinely moved the works of Classical writers without feeling the slightest need to pop out and sacrifice a ram to Zeus.
You're supporting my point. It would be considered an odd leap to go from reading Roman mythology to sacrificing rams to Zeus, which would be an act of worship.
In the same way, I think taking the step to go into a church and participate in Christian worship for a major Christian holiday, is beyond simply admiring a cultural practice. It's participating in it directly.
Yes. Participating in a cultural practice. As a cultural practice. Not as an act of worship.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
Maybe Dawkins just mouths the words along but doesn't really sing.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
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Originally posted by Callan:
For that matter lots of people read, enjoy and are genuinely moved the works of Classical writers without feeling the slightest need to pop out and sacrifice a ram to Zeus.
You're supporting my point. It would be considered an odd leap to go from reading Roman mythology to sacrificing rams to Zeus, which would be an act of worship.
In the same way, I think taking the step to go into a church and participate in Christian worship for a major Christian holiday, is beyond simply admiring a cultural practice. It's participating in it directly.
Yes. Participating in a cultural practice. As a cultural practice. Not as an act of worship.
I think that's the point. Some Christians are loath to accept that some aspects of Christianity have become a cultural practice, or in Larkin's words, a piece of moth-eaten brocade. It's like saying that it's an interesting and aesthetic relic. Ouch.
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Porridge
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# 15405
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Posted
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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
People are pretty complicated.
Nutshell.
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Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
postede by LeRoc quote:
Maybe Dawkins just mouths the words along but doesn't really sing.
Isn't the technical term for that 'doing a Redwood'?
[www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIwBvjoLyZc]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by L'organist:
postede by LeRoc quote:
Maybe Dawkins just mouths the words along but doesn't really sing.
Isn't the technical term for that 'doing a Redwood'?
[www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIwBvjoLyZc]
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Google speech wouldn't have helped him, at any rate. I just got "what are the words to hain will advert hair dye"...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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seekingsister
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Maybe Dawkins just mouths the words along but doesn't really sing.
Some of my Jewish friends did this in our school choir because their parents didn't like them singing the more traditional Christmas songs.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Only if you mean it to be. Do you really not accept that people sing these words because they know the carols from childhood without believing a word of it or meaning any of it as worship?
If you are in a church, singing about Jesus, and you don't know that it's a religious worship activity, then you really ought to take a minute to become more aware of your surroundings. Maybe Google the words "church" and "Christmas." Familiarize yourself with that t-shaped symbol that's on the sign outside of the building.
If the person is just singing songs from their childhood at home or in street carolling - fine maybe they're not really thinking about the lyrics.
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Adeodatus
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But Dawkins has said that he loves the Church of England.
Reminds me of Alan Bennett's remark, delivered in his usual Eeyore-ish deadpan Yorkshire accent:
"The Church of England is so constituted that its members can believe anything.
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Of course, none of them actually do."
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, OK, you're defining singing carols as worship. I think that's highly debatable, and is subjective. For some people, it's not worship...
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Joy to the world! the Saviour reigns;
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills, and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat the sounding joy.
Not worship? Hmm...
I don't think I've ever sung that one as an act of worship - mind focused on the meaning of the words, heart focused on God. Great party tune, puts me in a party mood.
Some secular songs I sometimes sing as prayer, at home.
I'm trying to put together a small "sing along to Messiah" gathering, I doubt anyone will regard the gathering as a worship event. Great music fun to sing.
But perhaps different people have different definitions of worship. To me it's a heart attitude, in or out of church. Sometimes that's where my heart is, sometimes it's not, in or out of church.
Or perhaps different people have different theories of how seriously casual singers mean the words they sing. Can a happily married person sing a Country and Western song about "you've left me alone and blue"? If so, why can't an atheist sing Joy to the World or He is Risen and not intend the words be taken seriously any more than the C&W singer intends the audience to think he has marriage problems?
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
I'm still baffled as to how singing hymns in church is not an act of worship. Is there a Christmas exception being applied here?
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm still baffled as to how singing hymns in church is not an act of worship. Is there a Christmas exception being applied here?
No. There's a "not meaning it and not intending it as worship" exemption going on, as always.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
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Originally posted by seekingsister:
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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, OK, you're defining singing carols as worship. I think that's highly debatable, and is subjective. For some people, it's not worship...
quote:
Joy to the world! the Saviour reigns;
Let men their songs employ;
While fields and floods, rocks, hills, and plains
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat the sounding joy,
Repeat, repeat the sounding joy.
Not worship? Hmm...
I don't think I've ever sung that one as an act of worship - mind focused on the meaning of the words, heart focused on God. Great party tune, puts me in a party mood.
Some secular songs I sometimes sing as prayer, at home.
I'm trying to put together a small "sing along to Messiah" gathering, I doubt anyone will regard the gathering as a worship event. Great music fun to sing.
But perhaps different people have different definitions of worship. To me it's a heart attitude, in or out of church. Sometimes that's where my heart is, sometimes it's not, in or out of church.
Or perhaps different people have different theories of how seriously casual singers mean the words they sing. Can a happily married person sing a Country and Western song about "you've left me alone and blue"? If so, why can't an atheist sing Joy to the World or He is Risen and not intend the words be taken seriously any more than the C&W singer intends the audience to think he has marriage problems?
Exactly! I've sung Fairytale of New York but it doesn't mean I have a junkie girlfriend I'm pissed off with. I've sung "Night of the 4th of May" but I'm not a former libertine. I've sung "Hen wlad fy nhadau" but I'm not Welsh. I've sung "Lucille", but I've never picked up women in a US bar...
Need I go on?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm still baffled as to how singing hymns in church is not an act of worship. Is there a Christmas exception being applied here?
No. There's a "not meaning it and not intending it as worship" exemption going on, as always.
Why would someone go into a church to sing Christian music, which to the Christians in attendance is an act of worship, if they did not intend themselves to be participating in said act of worship?
I feel like you have some desire to rationalize behavior that is obviously irrational. Which, if my statements don't apply to you, I'm not sure why you are even bothering to do. If someone claims to be an atheist, and then goes into a church to sing Christmas hymns - there's something inconsistent there. In the years when I was not a Christian do you know how many times I went to a carol service? ZERO. I was only in church if forced by family members.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
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Posted
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seekingsister: Why would someone go into a church to sing Christian music, which to the Christians in attendance is an act of worship, if they did not intend themselves to be participating in said act of worship?
Maybe because they like singing these songs together.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
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Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
seekingsister: Why would someone go into a church to sing Christian music, which to the Christians in attendance is an act of worship, if they did not intend themselves to be participating in said act of worship?
Maybe because they like singing these songs together.
Maybe because they actually do appreciate church and Christianity after all. Despite their bluster to the contrary for the rest of the year.
There are plenty of carol concerts and sing-alongs (at least in London) that have nothing to do with church.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
SS, just because you never did is beside the point. Fact is that there are many, many people who will never darken a church door, say they're "not religious", may well go further and declare themselves atheists and see belief in God rather silly, but they enjoy singing Christmas Carols because it reminds them of Christmases gone by back to their childhood. Some of them probably know and can sing the descants; they're that well known, that part of the culture for some people.
This really, really isn't difficult to understand. It's not, actually, that different to the reasons that charevo churches who never normally sing anything scored for choir and organ or written more than 10 years ago will nevertheless wheel out O Come all ye Faithful and O Little Town of Bethlehem come the end of Advent. People, barring the odd Grinch, like them. There's no obligation towards iconoclasm.
[ 12. November 2014, 13:44: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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SvitlanaV2
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I'm still baffled as to how singing hymns in church is not an act of worship. Is there a Christmas exception being applied here?
I suppose the point is that people attend church for different reasons. Not everyone present will be a true believer. We've all heard of the CofE chorists who aren't believers but attend because they enjoy the singing.
There's an unspoken sense in MOTR churches that singing hymns is about establishing a shared identity and heritage almost as much as about establishing a shared theology. In reality, such churches don't expect everyone to share a unified theological position, which means that any hymn that's sung is likely to mean very different things to different people.
Indeed, it occurs to me that popular evangelical churches must also 'run the risk' of attracting some folk who are there for the atmosphere and lively music rather than as a result of faith. Gospel music, as we know, has its secular fans. There are independent choirs they can join, but in some cases it might be easier for them just to go to church....
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