|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Obama: "We tortured some folks" after 9/11
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
In matters such as these there's always a part of me that thinks any kind of secret service ought to be secret.
If people aren't comfortable with that, cut the pretence and don't have one.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Has this been asked yet? Why are people who hate it when the government pays to feed people or heal people love it when the government directly tortures people? Does the government suddenly become trustworthy when they start making people scream for mercy? How does that work?
It doesn’t, because it isn’t a question of government trustworthiness, but of the accuracy of one’s own private assessment of those on the receiving end of whichever treatment is meted out. Favoring torture comes down to two factors: one, those being tortured deserve their agony as enemies of my country, my way of life, and/or me. If Mistakes Get Made and innocents are tortured or killed in error, it’s their own damn fault for associating with Bad Guys. They should know better, and anyway, a certain amount of collateral damage has to be expected and accepted when “we” are responding to real and legitimate threats against "us."
The flip side of this coin is to object to feeding and healing efforts by the government, because those on the receiving end are likewise enemies of my country, my way of life, and/or me. These individuals are supposed to take care of themselves and their own (the way I do), and their rejection of this responsibility shows how worthless, lazy, and greedy they are, dragging “our” economy down and sucking at the public teat on resources supplied, under protest, by me. In doing so, they pose a real and legitimate threat to my own personal well-being.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I find that interesting that a (covert) function of torture is not to obtain information but to punish. I suppose this has to be covert, as if it was too publicly broadcast, it could invite all kinds of tit-for-tat reaction. Well, I suppose torture maybe does anyway.
But I suppose it's also covert as a kind of moral guise - I'm not really a sadistic bastard.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
... and why hasn't this caused an outrage throughout civilised America?
Throughout civilized America it has. Which shows just how far that civilization goes.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
Civilisation and civilised behaviour is not a fixed point no matter how much we might wish it.
Criticism of the US often goes through periods of being highly fashionable. This one has been preempted, it will probably serve as an exercise of trying to repent in front of a global audience, it might also pacify a new wave of jihadists.
Might with a capital 'M'.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
it will probably serve as an exercise of trying to repent in front of a global audience,
Nah. The White House is already pointing out that Obama has already banned torture. The Justice Department is saying they already conducted a review of interrogation procedures. The Republicans in Congress, with the sole and notable exception of John McCain, who has lengthy first-hand experience of torture, are condemning the report, and they will take over control of the Senate next month. No further investigation will be done, no one will be held to account, no one will go on trial.
quote:
it might also pacify a new wave of jihadists.
Might with a capital 'M'.
Or it might inspire further hatred of us.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
... and why hasn't this caused an outrage throughout civilised America?
Throughout civilized America it has. Which shows just how far that civilization goes.
Which is far beyond the border where outrage over drone strikes that routinely kill women, children, and American citizens exists.
--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
I just fucking feel nauseous, and weak, and and helpless against this belief that apparently every fucking nation on the globe apparently holds-- that power is demonstrated in how you can debase and torment other people.
There are plenty of people who don't believe that, but nobody listens to them.
America doesn't exist, except as a decision some people made a long time ago. It's a bunch of lines someone drew on a map. All we are is people. What is to be done when we have forgotten that?
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
|
Posted
There was a slightly amusing incident when Albert Einstein was doing his best to get Kurt Godel in through US immigration... Godel, the worlds greatest ever mathematical logician was filling in his citizenship forms and pointed out that the constitution allowed for its own subversion into a totalitarian state - the immigration officers just didn't get it and thought he was refusing to agree be an american in the "land of the free". Albert eventually persuaded Kurt to forget the logic and just fill in the forms.
--------------------
"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I just fucking feel nauseous, and weak, and and helpless against this belief that apparently every fucking nation on the globe apparently holds-- that power is demonstrated in how you can debase and torment other people.
There are plenty of people who don't believe that, but nobody listens to them.
America doesn't exist, except as a decision some people made a long time ago. It's a bunch of lines someone drew on a map. All we are is people. What is to be done when we have forgotten that?
This is pure Hobbes. The state agrees to protect its citizens from outside force majeure and the citizens agree in return to tolerate and support the state. The arrangement is always a compromise, and the state is always in danger of getting too powerful and too violent. In this case it seems to have forgotten that in order to claim the moral high ground, one has to walk the talk, an dthat is not necessarily comfortable. Terrorists are the modern day anarchists - the state is pushed more and more into extreme positions to defend itself and its citizens and as a result becomes less and less tolerable. One would hope that a state in a democratic contry would give nmore than two hoots.
--------------------
"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
... and why hasn't this caused an outrage throughout civilised America?
Throughout civilized America it has. Which shows just how far that civilization goes.
Which is far beyond the border where outrage over drone strikes that routinely kill women, children, and American citizens exists.
And that allows America to participate in crimes against humanity in the guise of revenge? Don't make me laugh.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Hmmm.
!
Civilized America extends its outrage to America killing Americans out side America.
How does that make you laugh?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Imagines movie script in his hypnagogic and hypnopompic states last night as we experience the drip drip drip of unseasonable warmth and the water drips from ice outside my window like chinese water torture.
Young man from Pakistan gets picked up and turned over to the CIA. Tortured. Eventually returns home, gets educated. Accepted for graduate degree, travels to USA for it and with the convenience of modern social media etc, locates torturers and kills them on their front door steps in front of their families, telling the families and world what their loved one has done. The movie opens and closes with his renewed torture after capture or, depending on the movie rating desired, his trial. Or maybe his execution.
I suspect many thousands of young people in many countries are identifying themselves with the tortured and contemplating mayhem against those they believe symbolize evil. Alternative plots could involve use of drones.
Would we cheer? like when Ben-Hur defeats Messala in the chariot race? (They like to put this movie on during the Xmas season it seems, which may be the source of my dreams and thus this post.)
If it is acceptable for the CIA to torture, it is acceptable to not do what exactly in retaliation. If the rule of law and calling to justice of the lawbreakers doesn't occur, then there really isn't much to the law is there?
[ 11. December 2014, 12:06: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
How torture's justified gives so much ground for hope. It's justified as a necessary evil, to get the worst of the worst to give lifesaving info in a ticking bomb scenario. Its supporters draw such narrow parameters 'cause they know that, outside them, the majority would be repulsed.
So much of the blame for its ongoing support lies with supposedly liberal Hollywood, which normalized torture not just in the infamous 24, but in a litany of cop shows and movies where the clean-cut hero beats the truth from the comicbook villain perp.
The arguments against torture are compelling, but compelling arguments are useless unless they're made, and made often. The question we should be asking is why are so many opponents of torture so bad at presenting their case, and why are so many high-profile liberals complicit in undermining it?
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
it might also pacify a new wave of jihadists.
Might with a capital 'M'.
Or it might inspire further hatred of us.
Not sure if hatred quite works like that. True hatred and contempt is usually amplified when the hated object is perceived as weak, ineffectual and powerless.
If the States wants to put it's hands up and say it went too far in interrogating Al Qaeda suspects I don't think it will be viewed as weakness, not by the outside majority or by the jihadists .
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
So much of the blame for its ongoing support lies with supposedly liberal Hollywood, which normalized torture not just in the infamous 24, but in a litany of cop shows and movies where the clean-cut hero beats the truth from the comicbook villain perp.
I agree with a lot of what you've said. Reading this made me think of Zero Dark Thirty, which is a movie that, on the whole, normalizes torture.
This article from an Ex-CIA Director seems to confirm a lot of what was shown in Zero Dark Thirty. False information can still be useful information in a process of elimination. A detainee held indefinitely does not know if the rest of his cell was successful or not, or if the crucial information that he knows is outdated.
I'm puzzled by this report from this Democratic Senator because, while the expose might be necessary, it does seem to go too far in blaming people who were doing jobs.
I can just imagine the Australian ASIO calling the CIA asking, "WHO THE F*CK BLEW UP THE SARI CLUB?" and the CIA responding with "We could find out, but it's against our values."
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
The question we should be asking is why are so many opponents of torture so bad at presenting their case, and why are so many high-profile liberals complicit in undermining it?
I suspect part of the answer is that those who defend the use of torture do it by linking it to patriotism and safety: the we-don't-want-the-smoking-gun-to-be-a-mushroom-cloud type of argument. When the argument is made that torture allows the thwarting of plots to kill innocents (i.e., OUR innocents...not their innocents that we don't care about), then the implication (even if unspoken) is that those who oppose torture must think it is okay to kill those innocents. High-profile liberal politicians will not take the risk of appearing unpatriotic. "Those who would trade freedom for safety deserve neither" may be a catchy saying, but no politician would ever win a campaign based on it.
--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
This article from an Ex-CIA Director seems to confirm a lot of what was shown in Zero Dark Thirty.
Having skimmed through that - virtually all of the specific situations in which he claims particular information was gained seem to be under dispute. In particular, in the case of Zubaydah it seems that he responded to FBI questioning, but not later CIA interrogation (during which he lost an eye).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I find that interesting that a (covert) function of torture is not to obtain information but to punish. I suppose this has to be covert, as if it was too publicly broadcast, it could invite all kinds of tit-for-tat reaction.
On this note, a lot of the reports out of Iraq about the way in which ISIS interrogate their hostages seems to follow a similar pattern complete with mock executions and waterboarding (as well as dressing up their victims in orange jumpsuits for the actual executions).
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
Hedgehog, Obama not only won a campaign on the premise behind the saying, he paraphrased it in his inaugural address!
Of course the pro-torture crowd wrap themselves in the flag. Question is why so many liberals cede that position so readily.. The Constitution explicitly condemns torture ("No person ... shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"). The case against torture is overwhelming on ethical and practical grounds.
Instead of making it, we get fucking Dershowitz proposing "torture warrants" on the basis that torture's inevitable. What's going on here?
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
"If rape is being used to get info, we're already in hell." - Russell Brand.
A shining what on a hill exactly?
I weep for your country, my country, for all of us. The suffering is just beginning. The someone whose going to pay is all of us.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325
|
Posted
If Russell Brand is quoted as a source of wisdom on topics other than being a limey drug addict, we're already in hell.
And it's who's...
--------------------
"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman
Posts: 1486 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I'm puzzled by this report from this Democratic Senator because, while the expose might be necessary, it does seem to go too far in blaming people who were doing jobs.
Next you are going to say they were only "following orders".
Torturing innocent people to death is a job.
Talking about torturing innocent people to death is "going too far".
The poor nice little torturer is blamed for torturing how sad!
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I'm puzzled by this report from this Democratic Senator because, while the expose might be necessary, it does seem to go too far in blaming people who were doing jobs.
Next you are going to say they were only "following orders".
Torturing innocent people to death is a job.
Talking about torturing innocent people to death is "going too far".
The poor nice little torturer is blamed for torturing how sad!
No, I'm not. The deaths in custody are terrible. Above, I was indicating that false information is not necessarily useless, thus lacking the potential to save lives. Neither is indefinite detention.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ikkyu
Shipmate
# 15207
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
quote:
Originally posted by Ikkyu:
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
I'm puzzled by this report from this Democratic Senator because, while the expose might be necessary, it does seem to go too far in blaming people who were doing jobs.
Next you are going to say they were only "following orders".
Torturing innocent people to death is a job.
Talking about torturing innocent people to death is "going too far".
The poor nice little torturer is blamed for torturing how sad!
No, I'm not. The deaths in custody are terrible. Above, I was indicating that false information is not necessarily useless, thus lacking the potential to save lives. Neither is indefinite detention.
The ends justify the means?
Posts: 434 | From: Arizona | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
We're not in hell, some unscrupulous rat bastards conned a lot of decent folk, and seeing as they're decent, they can be persuaded to change their minds and oppose torture.
We all know people are capable of barbarism, and we're also capable of goodness. We fight for the better angels of our nature and can but have faith they'll win out. Through the sweep of our history, too slowly to be sure, things have gotten better. They can continue to do so.
I'm not downhearted.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hedgehog
Ship's Shortstop
# 14125
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Hedgehog, Obama not only won a campaign on the premise behind the saying, he paraphrased it in his inaugural address!
Your memory is better than mine. I thought he didn't say that until after the election when he didn't have to worry about being re-elected. In any event, it was silly of me to speak in absolutes ("no politician would..."). There are exceptions. Your basic point still stands: why don't more liberals stand by their principles and take on the pro-torture mob? While I am sure there are multiple influences, I still think fear of confronting somebody who has wrapped themselves in the flag is part of it. The danger to one's political career in confronting a "patriot" is there and some politicians really are gutless.
For my part, I am increasingly wary of any politician who swings the patriotism club. I am thinking of forming a handy rule of thumb that the more U.S. flags that are shown behind the speaker, the more likely what is being said is in contravention of American ideals. It needs a little more research to see if the correlation is as clear as I think it is.
--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'
Posts: 2740 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Isn't there a tinge of irony in the timing of these revelations (well, they're not really that), as in the Middle East, the militants now control large chunks of Iraq and Syria.
Do Western intelligence outfits ever wonder if they're making things worse?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
We fight for the better angels of our nature
Ah: the problem in a nutshell.
--------------------
Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by romanlion:
If Russell Brand is quoted as a source of wisdom on topics other than being a limey drug addict, we're already in hell.
And it's who's...
It's not wisdom, it's a catchy phrase which highlights evil conduct.
Do you think the idea of rape as torture to extract information is dismissable because a drug addict said it?
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
"If rape is being used to get info, we're already in hell." - Russell Brand.
A shining what on a hill exactly?
I weep for your country, my country, for all of us. The suffering is just beginning. The someone whose going to pay is all of us.
Lord have mercy. i agree with Russell Brand, and you.
i somewhat agree with Byron, too-- on the grassroots level, liberals have been screaming about torture, human rights violations, and drone strikes for a long time, but our liberal leaders haven't given us much to throw our weight behind.
--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
The best defence the Pro-torture folks seem to be able to mount is "We definitely, kinda-sorta think that probably we needed to torture to get the evidence."
There seems to be a much stronger correlation between the use of torture and radicalisation.
So, then, making the world less safe in order to make it more safe?
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There seems to be a much stronger correlation between the use of torture and radicalisation.
So, then, making the world less safe in order to make it more safe?
How safe was the world on Sept 10th 2001?
We thought it was safe, yet that safety turned out to be an illusion. If the CIA had been given the freedom to 'torture some folks' prior to that date then maybe the carefully planned attack of 9/11 could have been thwarted.
Radicalisation is achieved by using a wealth of anti-Western rhetoric, (along with other techniques). It was being done quite satisfactorily a long time before guantanamo or water-boarding.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
|
Posted
Really, you thought it was safe ? Did you not watch the news ? Had you literally know idea of the impact o US foreign policy ?
--------------------
All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
We thought it was safe, yet that safety turned out to be an illusion. If the CIA had been given the freedom to 'torture some folks' prior to that date then maybe the carefully planned attack of 9/11 could have been thwarted.
Excellent. Given that we don't know where the next threat is going to come from, where do you suggest we start? Or are you volunteering as the first target? I presume also that Oklahoma should have triggered a mass round up and incarceration of the entire 'patriot' movement.
quote:
Radicalisation is achieved by using a wealth of anti-Western rhetoric, (along with other techniques). It was being done quite satisfactorily a long time before guantanamo or water-boarding.
Blowback is a terrible thing.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Had you literally no idea of the impact of US foreign policy ?
We certainly don't get it from our news channels.
[ 12. December 2014, 22:17: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Radicalisation is achieved by using a wealth of anti-Western rhetoric, (along with other techniques). It was being done quite satisfactorily a long time before guantanamo or water-boarding.
Given that water-boarding seems to have originated with the (Spanish?) Inquisition, I think it may pre-date the current form of extreme Islamist anti-Western radicalisation.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Do Western intelligence outfits ever wonder if they're making things worse?
Some of the grunt-level workers do but trying to persuade the seniors, who are too busy attending meetings to read any actual intelligence reports, or, even worse, the political masters, is a different matter entirely.
--------------------
"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
|
Posted
Torture is wrong.
Torture is always wrong.
The CIA's defence is that the ends justify the means.
The problem with this is that the ends cannot always be so neatly tied to the "wrong" means.
The CIA's defence is also disingenuous, if they deny that torture took place anyway.
The CIA can confidently assume that the true facts, the whole truth, will not be revealed this century, because to publish the whole truth would put innocent lives in danger.
That's very convenient for the CIA, and problematic for members of Amnesty International.
Barack Obama may be making promises he cannot keep. His authority as POTUS is limited - that's a democratic embarrassment, if you like.
Has the CIA lied? Whom can we trust? I cannot trust my own judgment on this - if the whole file were published I would probably be unable to understand half of it.
But we have to trust somebody, don't we?
Those who have read the whole report and come to the conclusion that the CIA has lied are likely to be more reliable than their opponents. What has the Senate committee got to lose by exposing these lies, if lies there are?
Rather less than the CIA, I think. The CIA has a great deal to lose, and has shown itself pretty unscrupulous in the past in protecting itself from too much of the truth.
When I was learning Polish, my tutor told me a funny story, because poetry and stories are easier to remember than grammatical exercises.
Jerzy was accused of stealing 500 zlotys from a lady. "What do you have to say for yourself?" asked the judge?"
"Please, Your Honour, I did not steal the lady's money. She loaned it to me. And it wasn't 500 zlotys, it was 250. And I paid it back."
The man was sent down for five years. After which he applied for a job with the CIA - and got it.
--------------------
In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
Posts: 8018 | From: Wonderland | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
There seems to be a much stronger correlation between the use of torture and radicalisation.
So, then, making the world less safe in order to make it more safe?
How safe was the world on Sept 10th 2001?
We thought it was safe, yet that safety turned out to be an illusion. If the CIA had been given the freedom to 'torture some folks' prior to that date then maybe the carefully planned attack of 9/11 could have been thwarted.
Radicalisation is achieved by using a wealth of anti-Western rhetoric, (along with other techniques). It was being done quite satisfactorily a long time before guantanamo or water-boarding.
I'm always a little annoyed when I see such nonsense that references mere "rhetoric". September 11 only brought the consequences of disordered and cynical foreign policies and the endless quest from economic hegemony and money into your country.
In fact the Project for A New American Century (the think tanks of radical conservatives which wanted to impose a Pax American on the post Cold War world) specifically hoped for a new Pearl Harbour event, which playing into a 9-11 conspiracy plot. (They have taken their main documents off line a few years ago.)
Have a read; Zbigniew Brzezinski: How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen. The Mujahideen are the forerunner of Al Qaeda. Bin Laden in Afghanistan against the USSR was every bit the USA's man as his wealthy family members were investor friends of the Bushes and assorted cronies.
The point has always been that there is oil in the Middle East and countries/territory to the south of Russia. Contain Russia and get the oil. The USA believes it toppled the USSR, but the Mujahideen/Taliban believe they did it.
So would torture have been as efficient a method of stopping the terror problems, or is there a political illness that crosses both of your political parties and is part of some basic fabric of the country's soul since at least ~1990?
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Highfive
Shipmate
# 12937
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
Having skimmed through that - virtually all of the specific situations in which he claims particular information was gained seem to be under dispute. In particular, in the case of Zubaydah it seems that he responded to FBI questioning, but not later CIA interrogation (during which he lost an eye).
It seems that the handling of KSM was a national embarrassment.
The Anthrax is not under dispute, however. People in US news agencies opened happy letters praising Allah and were killed from it.
Posts: 111 | From: Brisbane | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
We thought it was safe, yet that safety turned out to be an illusion. If the CIA had been given the freedom to 'torture some folks' prior to that date then maybe the carefully planned attack of 9/11 could have been thwarted.
Given there is no proof of the efficacy of torture, how does this work?
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Radicalisation is achieved by using a wealth of anti-Western rhetoric, (along with other techniques). It was being done quite satisfactorily a long time before guantanamo or water-boarding.
So, the decades or the West mucking up the middle east, betraying their former allies there have naught to do with it?
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Really, you thought it was safe ? Did you not watch the news ? Had you literally know idea of the impact o US foreign policy ?
American news programmes spend less time on world affairs than nearly any country I've been to.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
Kelly Alves, I do wonder if some liberal leaders are so quiescent 'cause they have a low view of the majority. They were equally hesitant about gay rights, until its popular support exploded, shocking them as much as anyone.
Thinking of Dick Cheney's bullish defense of torture, if prosecutions are out, the administration could've made progress with a truth and reconciliation commission, where the perps testify in return for immunity. Confront Cheney, on national TV, with innocents tortured on his say-so; have them ask him why they needed to be drowned, raped, and beaten. That would be devastating to his evil cause.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Highfive:
The Anthrax is not under dispute, however. People in US news agencies opened happy letters praising Allah and were killed from it.
.. and we all know how that investigation ended - and if their conclusions were correct then that highlights the irony of defending torture considering the following:
"According to cables, crying, al-Barq then said ‘I made the anthrax.’ Asked if he was lying, al-Barq said that he was. After CIA interrogators ‘demonstrated the penalty for lying,’ al-Barq again said ‘I made the anthrax’ and then immediately recanted, and then again stated that he made anthrax. Two days later, al-Barq stated that he had lied about the anthrax production ‘only because he thought that was what interrogators wanted.’"
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, the decades or the West mucking up the middle east, betraying their former allies there have naught to do with it?
A lot of factors have come into play to create Western hating jihadist movements, one of which is Al Qaeda.
UK news prior to 9/11 was, as I recall, tinged with anti-US sentiment. This caused many to view the spectacle of 2 planes crashing into the Twin Towers as 'Well, had it coming didn't they?'.
I'm not pro-torture, bad things happen, always have done. It is of course pretty rich for the church to ring it's hands over waterboarding given it's past and the methods used in the service of Christ, re. Spanish Inquisition, burning women etc.
--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
I'm not pro-torture, bad things happen, always have done. It is of course pretty rich for the church to ring it's hands over waterboarding given it's past and the methods used in the service of Christ, re. Spanish Inquisition, burning women etc.
This is another silly argument.
The last person burnt in my country of Canada, was, well, never, by Europeans; the Iroquois Confederacy, Huron and some other First Nations certainly did, including clergy from some of the churches you think should shut up. In the UK the last one was 1784 from a quick web search.
Please enlighten us how events from more than 200 years ago make it specious for churches, or anyone else to decry recent tortures. You could, with equal silliness, suggest that no-one could reasonably wring their hands over slavery since they did this more recently than they burnt people.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, the decades or the West mucking up the middle east, betraying their former allies there have naught to do with it?
A lot of factors have come into play to create Western hating jihadist movements, one of which is Al Qaeda.
Repression is a good breeding ground for radical organisations and the repressive regimes supported in the ME during the Cold War certainly help the ideas of Qutb and movements like the MB to grow.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Really, you thought it was safe ? Did you not watch the news ? Had you literally know idea of the impact o US foreign policy ?
Prior to 9/11 I thought US foreign policy was making enemies for us. But I still thought we were safe, an unconscious assumption I didn't even know I had had until it was gone in the wake of 9/11.
quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Your basic point still stands: why don't more liberals stand by their principles and take on the pro-torture mob? While I am sure there are multiple influences, I still think fear of confronting somebody who has wrapped themselves in the flag is part of it. The danger to one's political career in confronting a "patriot" is there and some politicians really are gutless.
Liberals, progressives, the left, whatever you want to call us, in general do a piss-poor job of making persuasive arguments to the people in the middle, to moderates and swing voters. We're only great at preaching to the choir. The right has its echo chamber, and we have ours, and when confronted with people who want the basis for our assumptions about the world to be explained clearly before we go on to explain why Obamacare is a good idea, why we don't all need to be armed to the teeth, and why torture is both immoral and ineffective, we write them off as backwards and stupid.
We don't take on the pro-torture mob, we lose the votes of moderate whites in the south and the midwest, and we watch state after state take away access to abortion because we are too befuddled by the simple facts that not everyone automatically looks at the world the way we do and the goodness of the things we believe in is not self-evident to everyone.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Liberals, progressives, the left, whatever you want to call us, in general do a piss-poor job of making persuasive arguments to the people in the middle, to moderates and swing voters. We're only great at preaching to the choir. The right has its echo chamber, and we have ours, and when confronted with people who want the basis for our assumptions about the world to be explained clearly before we go on to explain why Obamacare is a good idea, why we don't all need to be armed to the teeth, and why torture is both immoral and ineffective, we write them off as backwards and stupid.
We don't take on the pro-torture mob, we lose the votes of moderate whites in the south and the midwest, and we watch state after state take away access to abortion because we are too befuddled by the simple facts that not everyone automatically looks at the world the way we do and the goodness of the things we believe in is not self-evident to everyone.
Testify! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Way back when, I used to have a wicked bad dose of liberal self-righteousness going on. Conservatives were just evil; moderates dupes. Boy, did I have a lot to learn.
These days I hold quite a few of those evil positions myself (against every instinct, I've accepted the persuasiveness of the case for concealed carry) and where I remain firmly liberal, as on the death penalty and drug legalization, I've come to accept that the opposition position can be made with sincerity and decency.
As repugnant as I find it, as I said upthread, I'd even extend that consideration to supporters of torture, if certain premises are held (ticking bomb; certainty of guilt; efficacy). If not, it's a wicked position.
I suppose Cheney may honestly be deluded, but if so, it's all the more reason for him to be confronted and driven to change his mind, apologize for what he's done, and try to make some effort, however inadequate, to compensate his victims.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
It's crossed the Atlantic.
Short version. What did Tony Blair and Jack Straw know, when did they know it, and what did they do?
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
