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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Escape from Duggarville
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Not being much of a TV watcher, I hadn't paid a lot of attention to the Quiverfull movement. "Oh, there's another mention" was about as far as I could go.
Until I read "Ecape from Duggarville" Wife abuse? Check. Abuse of children, not physically, I think, just mentally, as in "You kids are my property"., let alone preventing socialisation, education, all sorts of other stuff.
Is this movement spreading to other countries? Is it prevalent in the northern states of the US? (the South is, after all, still a different country.)
Any anecdotes or comment? My mind is somewhat boggled, rather unexpected given everything else that has come up online.
(If this should be in DH, please send it there. Ta in advance)
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Speaking from the middle of the U.S.--
yes, it is fucked up.
no, it is not everywhere, and part of the appeal of the TV series is that it's like a freak show--you can't just walk out your front door anywhere in America and see this kind of thing.
The fucking RHETORIC seems to be everywhere, because these people use media more effectively than most average MOTR types who aren't on the extremist end of stuff. That gives people the impression that the actual movement is everywhere, but AFAIK from experience it's not.
Last, there's a real difference between this particular cult (Quiverful) and the family down the street, or in church, which happens to have ten children. I know two of these, and in one case it's an RC family with objections to contraception, and in the other case it seems to be simply a family that wanted to have a lot of kids. I myself would have had about double the US average if God had given me the choice. I just like large families.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
There is a long, wearisome history in the US of nutbar marriage practices. Polygamous sects, Quivers, home schooling that is nothing but child abuse -- you can get away with murder (literal murder, yes) as long as you claim it is religious in nature.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
yes, it is fucked up.
no, it is not everywhere, and part of the appeal of the TV series is that it's like a freak show--you can't just walk out your front door anywhere in America and see this kind of thing.
The fucking RHETORIC seems to be everywhere, because these people use media more effectively than most average MOTR types who aren't on the extremist end of stuff. That gives people the impression that the actual movement is everywhere, but AFAIK from experience it's not.
Speaking from the east coast around the Mason Dixon line, I'd agree with this.
I sometimes think the political left in this country wants to make it seem like a bigger thing than it actually is as part of their Christianity-and-Christians-are-inherently-abusive-and-bad thing.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Horseman Bree asked quote:
Is this movement spreading to other countries?
I was about to say I had only ever heard of it in the USA, but thought I ought to Google it first.
So I found this (link). I didn't see the programme itself, but it seems the answer is "yes". And of course it is where you would expect it to be. Though I have to say I have never encountered it personally, not do I know anyone else who has done. So I guess it is pretty much restricted to those forms of conservative evangelicalism that take their cues from their US brethren.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Sarah Dawes from Derbyshire looks and sounds like a great mother, but she doesn't look or sound like what the Quiverfull movement is supposed to be about. She says quite clearly that she wanted lots of kids, but has had some difficulty persuading her husband to be as keen on the idea.
If couples love children, want to have lots of them, and can look after them, good for them. What I'd question is couples having lots of children either because one of the couple wants them but the other doesn't, because somebody tells them they ought to have them, or through commitment to a theology or an ideology rather than because they love children.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
In the UK we now tend to think of Muslims when we think of religious families with lots of children. But even Muslims don't have as many children as they used to.
The interesting thing is that the members of a sizeable religious group don't need to have that many children in order to gain a demographic advantage. They just need to have more than the people in the surrounding society.
As for the link in the OP, it's very depressing that the author sees Christianity itself as the cause of her domestic problems. It's surprising that she was willing to see a non-religious therapist, but never considered trying a different type of Christianity.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[...] As for the link in the OP, it's very depressing that the author sees Christianity itself as the cause of her domestic problems. It's surprising that she was willing to see a non-religious therapist, but never considered trying a different type of Christianity.
Her experiences considered, a clean break from Christianity may well be the best thing for her. Untangling good from bad, with all the psychological triggers Christian doctrine would involve, might not even be possible.
She's gotten out and has rebuilt her life. That's wonderful. If she lives without Christianity, well, so do billions of others. I see nothing depressing there. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I keep thinking of Mr. Quiverfull (with 14 children!) in Trollope's Barchester Towers.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
[...] As for the link in the OP, it's very depressing that the author sees Christianity itself as the cause of her domestic problems. It's surprising that she was willing to see a non-religious therapist, but never considered trying a different type of Christianity.
Her experiences considered, a clean break from Christianity may well be the best thing for her. Untangling good from bad, with all the psychological triggers Christian doctrine would involve, might not even be possible.
She's gotten out and has rebuilt her life. That's wonderful. If she lives without Christianity, well, so do billions of others. I see nothing depressing there.
No, you wouldn't.
Still, I don't see why becoming a Methodist would have been such a dreadful tragedy....
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I see that as sad too. She never seems to have asked herself if maybe she'd got Christianity wrong--seems to have believed in a complete correspondence between her abusive husband and Christ, and pitched both at the same time for the same reasons. How you do that when there are umpty-million other kinds of Christians out there, none of whom are living anywhere near that kind of lifestyle...
I mean, no wonder she went off Christianity, but it reminds me of totally pitching Chinese cuisine as an option forever, just because you once had a very dodgy egg roll made by some guy in Alabama.
Except sadder.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
Originally posted by saysay:
quote:
I sometimes think the political left in this country wants to make it seem like a bigger thing than it actually is as part of their Christianity-and-Christians-are-inherently-abusive-and-bad thing.
Funny thing, I consider myself a political leftist--and I've not run across this at all; I'm as likely to meet left-leaning people at church as anywhere else, since I don't belong to any political clubs. I've met four self-identified communists (all very decent, hardworking, law-abiding respectable citizens, btw) and two of them at least were Christians, one a devout Catholic and one a deist (apparently) of Catholic background. The whole "secular left" nonsense is spouted by guess who--the "religious right"--and parroted by the idiots of the commercial mass media. And there are lots of agnostic and atheist rightwingers out there too, making hay out of the big "culture war" lie.
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Perhaps it's some sort of American epidemic, but we seem, as a culture, to produce an awful lot of people with poor personal boundaries.
These are often the folks who get swept up into cults and causes, and get a Little Too Involved (read, in over their heads). Hey, dedicating oneself to a cause is a great way to duck dealing with one's own issues.
It's pretty usual for people in this boat to steer too hard toward the opposite shore when they wake up to the fact that they've lost hold of themselves in service to whatever movement they've joined.
It's like swearing off romance after a bad breakup; not bouncing straight on into yet another mess is actually a Good Thing. It provides at least the opportunity for healing.
Whether that takes place depends on whether "escapees" can begin to acknowledge the roles they themselves played in getting too-swept-up in the first place.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I think the psychological load of what had been done would prevent her from getting much out of Christianity, especially if she doesn't know that there ARE other forms that may be available. Some places don't have a lot of choice, especially if the majority of the people around are judgmental about the "other".
And, yes, there are a lot of people who dive into the deep end, and then have a phobia about swimming. I don't know if this is an American thing, or if it is (becoming) common elsewhere. American society tends to be much louder and in-your-face than is general in the Rest of the World.
Further comment in "The Rise of the "Dones" " , which illustrates the all-or-nothing mindset.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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saysay
Ship's Praying Mantis
# 6645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
The whole "secular left" nonsense is spouted by guess who--the "religious right"--and parroted by the idiots of the commercial mass media. And there are lots of agnostic and atheist rightwingers out there too, making hay out of the big "culture war" lie.
Oh, I know there are a lot of Christians on the political left - including my family, most of the members of my church, a lot of Shipmates. But back when daily kos was getting started they did a spin-off sight for the religiously inclined because the hostility towards religion and religious people on the main site was too much for some to take. And I like to torture myself by at least reading the headlines at Salon. You're kidding yourself if you think the secular left doesn't exist.
It may not be the threat that the religious right makes it out to be, but IME most of these memes catch on because there's at least a kernel of truth in them.
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"It's been a long day without you, my friend
I'll tell you all about it when I see you again"
"'Oh sweet baby purple Jesus' - that's a direct quote from a 9 year old - shoutout to purple Jesus."
Posts: 2943 | From: The Wire | Registered: May 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Slate...don't forget Slate.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Is this movement spreading to other countries? Is it prevalent in the northern states of the US? (the South is, after all, still a different country.)
I was born and raised in Western Carolina. I've never heard of the Quiverfull movement until now. While growing up in the 60s, there was a Roman Catholic family who lived behind us that had nine children. Three of the guys on my first little league team came from a family with some 18-20 kids. The lived on the Biltmore Estate and worked the dairy farm. Other than those two, some 45 years ago, that's about it.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... As for the link in the OP, it's very depressing that the author sees Christianity itself as the cause of her domestic problems. It's surprising that she was willing to see a non-religious therapist, but never considered trying a different type of Christianity.
Yes there's a lot in the link that I found depressing. The writer gives the impression that it has never occurred to her that she should take responsibility for her own spirit. She's articulate. She's written articles in the previous life she's turned her back on. Her linked article is articulate. But it's all somebody else's fault, the church, her ex-husband, Jesus as she's been taught about him. And now she goes through Deb the counsellor's 8 point plan of desalvation, and lo and behold, for the time being, that answers everything. Perhaps when that doesn't work as well as she thought it would, she'll blame her.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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marzipan
Shipmate
# 9442
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Posted
Quotes from the article in the OP
quote:
we felt the local Independent Fundamental Baptist church in our town was too liberal, too compromising …
You know you're extreme when the fundamentalists are too liberal for you
quote:
I knew that as a woman, I was particularly susceptible to deception by Satan. How many times, when we were discussing an important decision, had my husband said to me, “What you are suggesting SOUNDS reasonable, but how do I know that Satan isn’t using you to deceive me?”
How does anyone say something like this to someone they allegedly love?
quote:
being in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is a set up for dysfunctional game-playing and crazy-making head trips.
It can be, but it shouldn't be
It all reminds me of a line from the Screwtape Letters, paraphrasing - the best thing to drive someone away from God is to get them to believe in "Christianity And X"
It doesn't matter what X is, but once people realise that X has taken over, they can't see the point of christianity on its own.
[ 24. November 2014, 08:37: Message edited by: marzipan ]
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formerly cheesymarzipan.
Now containing 50% less cheese
Posts: 917 | From: nowhere in particular | Registered: May 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by marzipan:
You know you're extreme when the fundamentalists are too liberal for you
My rule of thumb is that there's someone who's always more fundamentalist than you who regards you as a dangerous liberal.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
SvitlanaV2, go team Wesley. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I'm surprised to see so many talk like Garrison's leaving Christianity is tragic. Do the billions of nonbelievers, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and pagans somehow lead diminished lives? She's escaped an abusive environment and appears to be thriving. If parting ways from Christianity helps her in that journey, go her.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
... As for the link in the OP, it's very depressing that the author sees Christianity itself as the cause of her domestic problems. It's surprising that she was willing to see a non-religious therapist, but never considered trying a different type of Christianity.
Yes there's a lot in the link that I found depressing. The writer gives the impression that it has never occurred to her that she should take responsibility for her own spirit. She's articulate. She's written articles in the previous life she's turned her back on. Her linked article is articulate. But it's all somebody else's fault, the church, her ex-husband, Jesus as she's been taught about him. And now she goes through Deb the counsellor's 8 point plan of desalvation, and lo and behold, for the time being, that answers everything. Perhaps when that doesn't work as well as she thought it would, she'll blame her.
Having just re-read the article in the OP, this rings a loud bell.
It's all very well for us to ask "why didn't she consider other forms of Christianity?". Given her other statements about setting up their own private house church, there are no other forms of Christianity. Nor has she abandoned that mindset.
It's a toughie - I can't immediately see how anyone is going to be able to help her with that one. And the risk to her is that she will go right on applying it to all sorts of other things.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
SvitlanaV2, go team Wesley.
I'm surprised to see so many talk like Garrison's leaving Christianity is tragic. Do the billions of nonbelievers, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and pagans somehow lead diminished lives? She's escaped an abusive environment and appears to be thriving. If parting ways from Christianity helps her in that journey, go her.
Byron - it's not that (at least as I see it). That POV presupposes that her leaving "Christianity" (ha!) will solve all.
It won't solve anything except in the immediate short term. There remains a root problem that lies within her. If you (generic) are disposed to see things in such uncompromisingly essentialist terms, you are exactly the sort of person to finish up on the loony wing of Islam, feminism or whatever. All -isms of any size acquire them sooner or later. That's where all such true believers fetch up.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
One could also check out the blog, No Longer Quivering which she set up for herself and other people who have left the movement.
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Is it me or my inner Freud which finds the idea of quivering a little longer than it is wide?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Hilda of Whitby
Shipmate
# 7341
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
There remains a root problem that lies within her. If you (generic) are disposed to see things in such uncompromisingly essentialist terms, you are exactly the sort of person to finish up on the loony wing of Islam, feminism or whatever. All -isms of any size acquire them sooner or later. That's where all such true believers fetch up.
This. I was looking for a pithy way to sum up the article, and Ron said it much better than I could have.
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"Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad."
Posts: 412 | From: Nickel City | Registered: Jun 2004
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
My niece has just started dating a boy from one of those families. Check all the US fundamentalist boxes: Home schooled because what the schools teaches as "science" isn't; No television because it has concepts and lifestyles that are incompatible with a Christian life; 9 kids. *sigh*
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The young man who shot the Mounties in Moncton this summer, and the other young man who threatened the police during the hunt, are both products of intensively-home-schooled and intensively religious families. The shooter was from a family with 4 children, and the other guy is part of a larger family, although neither were trying to set records for fertility. I do see a problem with strong, overbearing fathers though.
I know, I know, correlation vs. causation - but there was/is a problem in the relationship, which also involves fundamentalist outlook on religion, exhibited in both families.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Byron - it's not that (at least as I see it). That POV presupposes that her leaving "Christianity" (ha!) will solve all.
It won't solve anything except in the immediate short term. There remains a root problem that lies within her. If you (generic) are disposed to see things in such uncompromisingly essentialist terms, you are exactly the sort of person to finish up on the loony wing of Islam, feminism or whatever. All -isms of any size acquire them sooner or later. That's where all such true believers fetch up.
I don't psychoanalyze folk down a wire. All I see from the report (and the blogs, which I've long followed) is a person who's broken free of an abusive environment and belief system, and draws some reasonable conclusions about the faith behind it. Contestable, to be sure, but reasonable.
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The young man who shot the Mounties in Moncton this summer, and the other young man who threatened the police during the hunt, are both products of intensively-home-schooled and intensively religious families. The shooter was from a family with 4 children, and the other guy is part of a larger family, although neither were trying to set records for fertility. I do see a problem with strong, overbearing fathers though.
I know, I know, correlation vs. causation - but there was/is a problem in the relationship, which also involves fundamentalist outlook on religion, exhibited in both families.
Wow...you are judging all religious homeschoolers from large families based on the actions of two Canadians? That's not right. Not right at all.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Byron wrote: quote:
I don't psychoanalyze folk down a wire. All I see from the report (and the blogs, which I've long followed) is a person who's broken free of an abusive environment and belief system, and draws some reasonable conclusions about the faith behind it. Contestable, to be sure, but reasonable.
I'm not trying to do that - I don't pretend to understand what processes lie behind such things, much as I would like to. It's just observation really.
There is a certain convert mentality that swings from extreme A to extreme B, whilst never considering whether their appreciation of what A is all about was at all well-founded. Or what the merits and demerits of B may be.
It's not universally true of course, and I may indeed be wrong. But she has shown no signs of understanding that Christianity even exists outside a fundamentalist framing of her understanding thereof. (I have read some other of her writings that can be found with a spot of Googling). If that's her only or preferred way of looking at things, then it is surely relevant to worry about what is going to be dealt with this way next?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I know, I know, correlation vs. causation - but there was/is a problem in the relationship, which also involves fundamentalist outlook on religion, exhibited in both families.
Wow...you are judging all religious homeschoolers from large families based on the actions of two Canadians? That's not right. Not right at all.
Did you bother reading this last paragraph in the post?
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Zoey
Broken idealist
# 11152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
In the UK we now tend to think of Muslims when we think of religious families with lots of children.
We do? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
If I think of their family sizes at all (which I'm not sure I had done until reading this thread), my impression is that UK Muslims may have slightly more children on average than the general UK population (maybe 3 to 4 children per family, as opposed to 1 or 2).
If you asked me to think of UK religious families with "lots of children", my first thought would be of ultra-orthodox Jews. They make up a very much smaller percentage of the UK's overall population than Muslims. However, as I understand it, they still eschew contraception on religious grounds and their communities still include some families with 10 or more children. Indeed, the the ever-reliable Wikipedia suggests the average family size for UK Haredi Jews is 5.9 children.
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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.
Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I know, I know, correlation vs. causation - but there was/is a problem in the relationship, which also involves fundamentalist outlook on religion, exhibited in both families.
Wow...you are judging all religious homeschoolers from large families based on the actions of two Canadians? That's not right. Not right at all.
Did you bother reading this last paragraph in the post?
Yeah so?
Saying you know correlation is not causation but then saying that in case the correlation must be part of the cause negates his saying that correlation doesn't equal causation. As a matter of fact, I'm wondering what group other than Christian fundamentalists for which it would be OK to assume their religion and family size had something to do with their committing violent crime. My guess is the answer is precious few. And the ones that are will somehow be associated with Christian conservatives in the United States.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
... I'm wondering what group other than Christian fundamentalists for which it would be OK to assume their religion and family size had something to do with their committing violent crime. My guess is the answer is precious few. And the ones that are will somehow be associated with Christian conservatives in the United States.
That is weird. When I was growing up, it was always assumed that huge families went with being RC.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
Yes likewise. The big families I knew when I was growing up were Roman Catholics. I had a friend at university from a Catholic family who was one of 13 (he was number 8!).
Having said that I now know several Protestant evangelical American families with 5 children, which would be more unusual in UK circles but certainly not unheard of. (And I know that not all of those families were intentionally 5!)
[ 24. November 2014, 20:25: Message edited by: Lucia ]
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The young man who shot the Mounties in Moncton this summer, and the other young man who threatened the police during the hunt, are both products of intensively-home-schooled and intensively religious families. The shooter was from a family with 4 children, and the other guy is part of a larger family, although neither were trying to set records for fertility. I do see a problem with strong, overbearing fathers though.
I know, I know, correlation vs. causation - but there was/is a problem in the relationship, which also involves fundamentalist outlook on religion, exhibited in both families.
Wow...you are judging all religious homeschoolers from large families based on the actions of two Canadians? That's not right. Not right at all.
No, I'm looking at the specific actions and circumstances of two young men. And I might add that my opinion is matched by the writings online of others about these two young men.
Maybe you are just a wee bit defensive? A tad anxious about the state of things in God-is-glorious-gun-land? Or is it the need to label everything that you happen to be uncertain about as a liberal plot? C'mon, let's have some really good stereotyping.
You're the one jumping to a conclusion.
I have learned from reading on the Ship that there are various sides to gun issues, to relationships, to education... Sometimes those various positions happen to include some degree of rightness in each position taken.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
Growing up in the northeastern U.S., large families were usually Roman Catholic. Here in Arizona they're usually Mormon.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I was disappointed that the article isn't about a Duggar child escaping! I would take what Garrison says with a pinch of salt - what she said happened to her does happen in Quiverfull/Dominionist circles, but she also has defended known fraudsters like Razing Ruth (on the No Longer Quivering site). But the internet is full of fundie rabbit holes to fall down which show that what she describes happens - the Fundie Blogger section on Get Off My Internets and Free Jinger are the main places to discuss it.
/not-so-secret fundie watcher
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Horseman Bree:
No, I'm looking at the specific actions and circumstances of two young men. And I might add that my opinion is matched by the writings online of others about these two young men.
Yeah...it's possible to find somebody on the internet who agrees with anything.
quote:
originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Maybe you are just a wee bit defensive? A tad anxious about the state of things in God-is-glorious-gun-land? Or is it the need to label everything that you happen to be uncertain about as a liberal plot? C'mon, let's have some really good stereotyping.
You've already done plenty of stereotyping.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Egeria:
Originally posted by saysay:
The whole "secular left" nonsense is spouted by guess who--the "religious right"--and parroted by the idiots of the commercial mass media.
The secular left is neither monolithic nor homogeneous, and contains both moderates and loonies, but to try to deny its very existence is sheer obscurantism.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Egeria
Shipmate
# 4517
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Posted
What I was trying to say was that the expression "secular left" (as though those two words were just naturally fused together) is misleading. Sure, there are agnostic and atheists leftists and some of them stereotype all Christians as abusive. But, again, it's misleading to say "leftists say that."
My sister has two former friends--former because they turned out to be right-wing racist loonies--who aren't only "secular", they just hate religion in general.
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"Sound bodies lined / with a sound mind / do here pursue with might / grace, honor, praise, delight."--Rabelais
Posts: 314 | From: Berkeley, CA | Registered: May 2003
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
No Longer Quivering is a good resource. I've read it, and several of my former QF friends highly recommend it to QF young adults (mainly girls) who are coming to grips with the fact that what their daddies told them about the world ain't necessarily so.
That's probably all I should say for now, lest I get too hellish in the QF direction. I don't like it one bit, and I was close enough to it to recognize its stink when I see it.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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