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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: PSA vs. the rest
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I'm glad you understand Jamat.
What a strange war we're in.
What He did and what He thought He was doing are not the same thing.
What He did was far bigger and better than PSA or any other theory of atonement.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What He did was far bigger and better than PSA or any other theory of atonement.
Profoundly true. And a big familiar-- where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah, pretty much every other poster on this thread.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There you go. You got there in the end.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: There is not very much in Scripture supporting a view of sin as crime and God as a judge in a court of law.
Maybe start with Abraham; "shall not the judge of all thy earth do right?"
But, as Alan said, what sense of the English word 'judge' is meant in this reference? Judge as in one who decides on innocence or guilt, or judge as (Alan's words) 'an architect judging whether the labourers have built something properly such that it's structurally sound, a farmer judging the quality of the produce of his trees etc.'
I don't know enough about the ancient Hebrew language to say, but the latter sense is surely feasible?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There you go. You got there in the end.
Or rather, the reverse. But that's OK-- we were waiting for you.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
There you go. You got there in the end.
No, we started there. YOU got there in the end.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell: There is not very much in Scripture supporting a view of sin as crime and God as a judge in a court of law.
Maybe start with Abraham; "shall not the judge of all thy earth do right?"
But, as Alan said, what sense of the English word 'judge' is meant in this reference?
Good question. Contextually, this concerns the prospective destruction of Sodom and the 'theophany' who appears to Abraham says 2 things. One is that Abraham should be informed. The second is that the wickedness of Sodom has drawn the Lord's attention. The nature of the judgement is therefore contingent on human action so I guess as in other divine interventions in the book of Genesis it is corrective, such as in the way Cain is driven away from God's presence or Adam is expelled from Eden. Somehow, for the good of humanity God had to intervene at that point.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
What He did was far bigger and better than PSA or any other theory of atonement.
So what actually was that?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It won't work for you mate. Which is fine.
He broke through to us.
In EVERY sense He delivered us from sin and death.
You see, we're all different.
Forgiveness isn't contingent on anything. Like kindness. It isn't conditional. And I'm found wanting in kindness right here with you and mousethief and cliffdweller aren't I?
And forgiveness is just the beginning. It's the certainty - in Christ - that all will be well despite looking and being irreparably, unhealably unwell now.
You?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Jamat quote:
No, a Jewish mindset would do it.
Errr, no. To the Jews the manner of Christ's death indicated he was cursed by God.
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Jamat quote:
No, a Jewish mindset would do it.
Errr, no. To the Jews the manner of Christ's death indicated he was cursed by God.
You need to be a bit Pauline.
[UBB code vs the rest]
[ 20. December 2014, 10:27: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Wrong mousethief. Completely and utterly wrong. You completely misunderstand. I can't understand it for you and I don't know why you won't understand.
But you won't.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Wrong mousethief. Completely and utterly wrong. You completely misunderstand. I can't understand it for you and I don't know why you won't understand.
But you won't.
Ah, Martin, you're adorable. There's a good boy, I think there's a treat for you in the kitchen, dear. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Parent-child eh? Matching me. Don't worry, I don't get angry at you as I do at mousethief. Or rather do worry ... he is at least a truly liberal Orthodox Christian.
Why he appears to deliberately misunderstand and misrepresent me I don't know. My paranoia I'm sure.
Just like I don't know why you have to believe in Boyd's dualism.
Although I feel that I do ...
There's something going on here which isn't amenable to even open Hellish discourse, let alone within the rules of purgatory. One would have to get openly ad hominem and I don't think either of you are up for it.
Happy to pop down to Hades if you call.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Parent-child eh? Matching me. Don't worry, I don't get angry at you as I do at mousethief. Or rather do worry ... he is at least a truly liberal Orthodox Christian.
Why he appears to deliberately misunderstand and misrepresent me I don't know.
What a coincidence.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Parent-child eh? Matching me. Don't worry, I don't get angry at you as I do at mousethief. Or rather do worry ... he is at least a truly liberal Orthodox Christian.
Why he appears to deliberately misunderstand and misrepresent me I don't know.
What a coincidence.
Pretty much this has been the goal all along:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Happy to pop down to Hades if you call.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Will you all please stop bickering in a Hellish manner about Hell-calls? Either go there, in the festive spirit of the season, or put a sock in it.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It won't work for you mate. Which is fine.
He broke through to us.
In EVERY sense He delivered us from sin and death.
You see, we're all different.
Forgiveness isn't contingent on anything. Like kindness. It isn't conditional. And I'm found wanting in kindness right here with you and mousethief and cliffdweller aren't I?
And forgiveness is just the beginning. It's the certainty - in Christ - that all will be well despite looking and being irreparably, unhealably unwell now.
You?
Most of that works for me.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Eutychus. Sir.
Jamat. YOU never cease to amaze me.
mousethief. Sorry. May we start again again? Again ...
As I'm the one proposing a postmodern antithesis, I MUST do the work.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
mousethief: Please, in the name of all that is holy, say no.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So, as Jesus had to faithfully believe all manner of pre-modern stuff, He had to believe He had to suffer and die for our sins.
Good job He came when He did.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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