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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Religion of Jesus, or religion about Jesus?
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Martin60
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# 368
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Posted
Doesn't Desmond Decker sing about them?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Did you celebrate Christmas Jamat?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I found THIS to be highly informative.
It seems that Allah is NOT a generic word for God in Arabic but is actually the proper name of the Deity, according to Islam.
No room for YHWH then....
You'll have to explain that to the christian churches in Malta where it appears, side by side with the English, in the book of prayer.
Did you read the article?
It seems the Muslims themselves would have an issue with the Christians in Malta; maybe they are actually mistaken.
It's not for me to correct them. If Islam itself claims that Allah is the supreme deity's actual name and not the generic term for a deity then who am I to disagree?
As I said, the divine name for God is YHWH and not Allah, and he was Incarnate in Jesus who has now received the name that is above EVERY name (including Allah).
The thing is that pretty much all words for 'God' are signifiers which can do justice for more than one 'god', by definition. Yahweh appears to have been used by semitic pagans, as well as Israelite monotheists. El was the patron of Elijah and Elagabalus. Our English word 'God' comes from the Old English word which was used by the Anglo-Saxon saints and by the votaries of Woden and Thunor and 'Allah' is used by Muslims and Arab speaking Christians as a signifier for God. When we talk about God we always use borrowed words.
Incidentally, it is weapons grade stupidity to claim that anything is the case "according to Islam" whilst linking to a website maintained by Ahmadiyya Muslims who are regarded by a reasonably sized proportion of the global Muslim community as not being entirely Halal. It would be roughly akin to claiming that the official website of the Jehovah's Witnesses offered a definitive account of the beliefs and practices of Christendom.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan
Our English word 'God' comes from the Old English word which was used by the Anglo-Saxon saints and by the votaries of Woden and Thunor and 'Allah' is used by Muslims and Arab speaking Christians as a signifier for God.
The word 'god' is related to the word 'gush'. The original meaning was 'that to which one pours' (a libation). The original Germanic word for god was lost very long ago.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Here
Wow! An evangelical Christian hack says you're right without providing any evidence. I'm convinced ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Wow, another ad hominem comment. Is this hell?
Happy New Year.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Here
Wow! An evangelical Christian hack says you're right without providing any evidence. I'm convinced
Wow, another ad hominem comment. Is this hell?
Happy New Year.
If it were hell it'd be you I was attacking, not him. Also, when there's no argument presented (other than his own ad hominem) then it's kind of hard to attack anything except the person, no?
[ 31. December 2014, 20:59: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Callan
Our English word 'God' comes from the Old English word which was used by the Anglo-Saxon saints and by the votaries of Woden and Thunor and 'Allah' is used by Muslims and Arab speaking Christians as a signifier for God.
The word 'god' is related to the word 'gush'. The original meaning was 'that to which one pours' (a libation). The original Germanic word for god was lost very long ago.
Moo
No doubt. But, I'm guessing, that when St. Augustine was debating the merits of Christianity with the local heathens at Canterbury they were almost certainly using the same word for the deity(ies) even though they meant entirely different things by it.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Here
Wow! An evangelical Christian hack says you're right without providing any evidence. I'm convinced
Wow, another ad hominem comment. Is this hell?
Happy New Year.
If it were hell it'd be you I was attacking, not him. Also, when there's no argument presented (other than his own ad hominem) then it's kind of hard to attack anything except the person, no?
If you are interested. Something to attack.
Here
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Completely bonkers. Do check out the 'Vatican and Islam' page on the same site which suggests that the rise of Islam was orchestrated by the Vatican.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
Out of curiosity Jamat, what word should Arabic-speaking Christians use for 'God'?
Also, what's the proper pronunciation for Jesus Christ? Isu Xristo, Isa Mesih, Heyzeus Cristos, Iesukirisuto, Yēsū jīdū? Is it inconceivable to you that Elohim could be pronounced 'Allah' in Arabic?
In Turkish there are only two words for 'God': Allah and tanri. Tanri is the word used to describe ancient Greek and pagan deities. When speaking to a Turkish friend would it be appropriate to say "Allah'a dua etmem, sadece tanri'ya dua edderim"?*
What do you say to the fact that Arab Christians used the word Allah before the advent of Islam, or that many modern Bible translators use the work because they don't have an alternative?
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*I won't pray to God, I'll only pray to god.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Out of curiosity Jamat, what word should Arabic-speaking Christians use for 'God'?
Also, what's the proper pronunciation for Jesus Christ? Isu Xristo, Isa Mesih, Heyzeus Cristos, Iesukirisuto, Yēsū jīdū? Is it inconceivable to you that Elohim could be pronounced 'Allah' in Arabic?
In Turkish there are only two words for 'God': Allah and tanri. Tanri is the word used to describe ancient Greek and pagan deities. When speaking to a Turkish friend would it be appropriate to say "Allah'a dua etmem, sadece tanri'ya dua edderim"?*
What do you say to the fact that Arab Christians used the word Allah before the advent of Islam, or that many modern Bible translators use the work because they don't have an alternative?
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*I won't pray to God, I'll only pray to god.
Too many questions. I am not really too fussed about jumping through pedantic hoops. The bottom line is that Allah is not the Jewish God and that there is plenty of evidence that Allah was merely one of many ancient deities until Mohammad came along to redefine him.
[code]
[ 02. January 2015, 05:02: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Completely bonkers. Do check out the 'Vatican and Islam' page on the same site which suggests that the rise of Islam was orchestrated by the Vatican.
That page is actually pretty well referenced I thought. But obviously your understanding varies. It is not completely bonkers. I did read the potted history of the Donatists vs Augustine and do not have a view on that but that aspect is not the subject here.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
The Aramaic books of Ezra and Daniel use Elah, plural Elim, for God, and it's no surprise that they're etymologically related to the Arabic Allah. It most likely means "that which is to be revered." Most Middle Eastern Christians, who speak Arabic, as well as the Maltese who speak an Arabic based language also use it in exactly the way English speakers say God, so it's absurd to say the word itself implies a different meaning. Muslims may well hold a different view of God, but linguistics aren't to blame for that.
In the Hebrew Bible, names of God are often combined, as in "El Shaddai" (God Almighty) or "YHWH Elohe Tzevaot." (Lord God of Sabaoth(hosts)). If YHWH is interpreted to mean " I am that I am" that's likely to mean that which is eternal. No words will suffice to convey such a concept to the time bound human mind, so I'm surprised that anyone can get hung up over the names used in different cultures.
My arguement with Islam isn't about what they call God, it's about:
Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"
or any of the more than a hundred verses of the Quran which sanction violence against anyone who disagrees with them. But Christianity doesn't have a clean shhet either. Many Jews preferred the relative safety of the Calipahtes where they were doubly taxed, to facing the Inquisition.
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Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So there's no context? Unlike for Christian texts?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Too many questions. I am not really too fussed about jumping through pedantic hoops. The bottom line is that Allah is not the Jewish God and that there is plenty of evidence that Allah was merely one of many ancient deities until Mohammad came along to redefine him.
Ah, so you don't understand how language works, got it.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Too many questions. I am not really too fussed about jumping through pedantic hoops. The bottom line is that Allah is not the Jewish God and that there is plenty of evidence that Allah was merely one of many ancient deities until Mohammad came along to redefine him.
Ah, so you don't understand how language works, got it.
It is just that a rose by any other name smells as sweet, unless, of course, it isn't a rosé
at all
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I think you just proved irish_lord99's point.
What makes the thing we refer to as a "rose" a rose is not the fact that we refer to it by the series of letters r-o-s-e but its essential characteristics, which, like those of God, transcend language.
The fact that Spanish-speakers refer to a rose as una rosa does not mean they have no idea what a rose is, nor does it mean, simply because that's a feminine noun, that it has girly parts.
Besides, arguing that YHWH offers a definitive descriptor for God is effectively allowing man to make God after his own image, since Hebrew is a human, not a divine language.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Oh and Jamat presumably you abhor chapels of any kind on the grounds that the word 'chapel' originally referred to a holy relic - part of the cape of Saint Martin of Tours, housed in a small building, which by extension became known by the term originally used for the cape itself, and which then lent its name to other similar small buildings and parts of cathedrals?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think you just proved irish_lord99's point.
What makes the thing we refer to as a "rose" a rose is not the fact that we refer to it by the series of letters r-o-s-e but its essential characteristics, which, like those of God, transcend language.
The fact that Spanish-speakers refer to a rose as una rosa does not mean they have no idea what a rose is, nor does it mean, simply because that's a feminine noun, that it has girly parts.
Besides, arguing that YHWH offers a definitive descriptor for God is effectively allowing man to make God after his own image, since Hebrew is a human, not a divine language.
Sorry, am unaware of yours or his point. Mine is not about language it is simply that Allah of Islam is not the Biblical God and that there is lots of evidence for that. Have a good one.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Sorry, am unaware of yours or his point. Mine is not about language it is simply that Allah of Islam is not the Biblical God and that there is lots of evidence for that.
What's a "Biblical God"? A God that conforms to Scripture? That illustrates precisely the sort of back-to-front thinking that sets us at odds here.
If you were to say "Muslims view some aspects of God's character differently to Christians" then I would be inclined to agree with you.
But to argue that because the Arabic word for God is not YHWH (or is Allah), merely calling God "Allah" means those that do so do not seek to worship the one true God is, at best and as explained above, to mistake the signifier for the referent, and at worst racist.
[edited for clarity]
[ 02. January 2015, 07:51: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Here's a simple question:
I have read and heard a lot about Allah being the same God as the OT God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Is Allah the same as the God of Moses?
The context for my question is the fact that the God who revealed himself in the burning bush and who led the Israelites to the Promised Land revealed a certain character and entered into a certain covenant with the Jews.
Is that the same God as Allah?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Sorry, am unaware of yours or his point. Mine is not about language it is simply that Allah of Islam is not the Biblical God and that there is lots of evidence for that.
What's a "Biblical God"? A God that conforms to Scripture? That illustrates precisely the sort of back-to-front thinking that sets us at odds here.
If you were to say "Muslims view some aspects of God's character differently to Christians" then I would be inclined to agree with you.
But to argue that because the Arabic word for God is not YHWH (or is Allah), merely calling God "Allah" means those that do so do not seek to worship the one true God is, at best and as explained above, to mistake the signifier for the referent, and at worst racist.
[edited for clarity]
But to paraphrase Elijah:
"How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD (YHWH) is God, follow him; but if Allah is God, follow him."
1 Kings 18 v 21
[ 02. January 2015, 08:02: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Muslims certainly do NOT accept YHWH as a parallel name for the god they call Allah.
And if Allah is God then why not Zeus? Why not Viracocha? Why not the 'trinity' of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva?
Sorry, I've been away for a few days and missed this response to me.
The reason many muslims insist on calling God Allah is not that they are referring to some other God but because, unlike Christianity historically and indeed Biblically, Islam is essentially language-specific. The Koran is only the proper Koran if it is in Arabic, prayers should be in Arabic, and so on. God should be called Allah not because that's his special name (as you seem to be arguing for YHWH), but simply because that's the Arabic for God.
In other words there's an explicit cultural dimension to Islam, whereas the entire message of Christianity revolves around the fact that it is for all nations - and as such transcends culture (and language).
As I understand it, the key affirmation of Islam about God is not that he is named Allah (although this is important for the reasons outlined above) but that he is one, and with this monotheistic affirmation I can agree.
Moderate, westernised Islam is (again as I understand it) less insistent on its cultural specificity and indeed on calling God Allah, but I think it will have more trouble overcoming its roots than Christianity had breaking free of Judaism.
[x-post]
[ 02. January 2015, 08:11: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Since when was the pre-Christian pagan term "God" considered appropriate for the Jewish Deity "Yahweh"? Anyone using that Saxon term for a libation poured out to idols has nothing to do with the Hebrew "Yahweh".
And don't get pedantic about language on me, the point is clear.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Is Allah the same as the God of Moses?
The context for my question is the fact that the God who revealed himself in the burning bush and who led the Israelites to the Promised Land revealed a certain character and entered into a certain covenant with the Jews.
Is that the same God as Allah?
That is like asking whether "red" is the same colour as "rouge" (French for "red"). If you were posting in Arabic and I were to translate your question back into English, you would be asking "is that the same Allah as Allah?"
You are confusing the signifier with the referent (see here).
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
But to paraphrase Elijah:
"How long will you waver between two opinions? If the LORD (YHWH) is God, follow him; but if Allah is God, follow him."
Elijah was asking the people to choose between the false god that was a product of human hands (of which, notably, idols were fashioned) and the God who revealed himself to their forefathers.
The characteristics of Ba'al were markedly different from YHWH in a way that the Muslim understanding of God is not.
My working assumption is that Muslims (all the more so in that they are monotheists and believe in the God who spoke to Abraham) are proceeding on the basis of imperfect revelation (in much the same way as Cornelius) rather than worshipping Satan or some other demon masquerading as God. What they are lacking is a revelation of Jesus as Lord and Christ - which can be translated into any language - not a failure to refer to God as YHWH in preference to Allah.
This is important to my mind at a day-to-day level.
There's a big difference between viewing our Muslim fellow-humans as Baal-worshippers (which is the rather nasty implication of your paraphrase) or as modern-day counterparts of Cornelius.
To throw your paraphrase and question back at you, Mudfrog, do you view Muslims by definition as modern-day Baal-worshippers?
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Sorry, am unaware of yours or his point. Mine is not about language it is simply that Allah of Islam is not the Biblical God and that there is lots of evidence for that.
What's a "Biblical God"? A God that conforms to Scripture? That illustrates precisely the sort of back-to-front thinking that sets us at odds here.
If you were to say "Muslims view some aspects of God's character differently to Christians" then I would be inclined to agree with you.
But to argue that because the Arabic word for God is not YHWH (or is Allah), merely calling God "Allah" means those that do so do not seek to worship the one true God is, at best and as explained above, to mistake the signifier for the referent, and at worst racist.
[edited for clarity]
The Biblical God is far far different in character to the deity of the Q'ran. But Yes, Muslims have a god called Allah and they think he is God. (He isn't.) Happy now?
By the way perhaps you would like to swap with them? All of a sudden your women have a different dress code and inferior status? You now have the Hajj to go on? You have to jump through a million hoops to get unattainable perfection and your founding apostle married a girl of 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Not only do you not understand how language works, Jamat, but you obviously haven't read Eutychus's responses properly either.
What he's saying is that the Muslims lack the full revelation of God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - of Christ as God.
Show me where Eutychus is saying that we should ditch Christianity and become Muslim?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Ok, I know you're speaking hyperbolically but all you are doing is running the risk of displaying your own ignorance.
Eutychus is a linguist and Irish Lord used to live in Turkey and is familiar with the actual languages spoken in the Middle East.
You aren't.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The point, of course, is that there is only one God.
People might have differing, less complete or incorrect views about this God - but there is still only One.
I notice that the Apostle Paul didn't approach the Athenians on Mars Hill saying, 'Right, you worthless bunch of idolaters ... get this ... you're worshipping demons at worst or figments of your own imagination at best ...'
No, what did he say?
'What you worship as Unknown, I now declare to you ...'
He started where they were at.
Debates about whether the Islamic Allah and the Jewish YHWH are one and the same are pretty sterile if you ask me - they don't lead anywhere.
God is God is God is God. Whatever we called Him, he'd still be God.
I might believe in the Flying Bunny or the Pink-Headed Jelly Monster from the Planet Zarg - but there's still only One God.
I've seen more fundamentalist or ultra-conservative Christians from all the main traditions - RC, Protestant and Orthodox maintaining that Allah must be a demon or something - based on the behaviour of some of his worshippers.
I'd suggest that they are making a category error.
'Allah' is simply a word used for the Deity in Arabic speaking countries - and in some other languages too, I believe, like Maltese, I think.
Just as 'God' is the term used for the Deity in Anglo-Saxon and Germanic languages (God or Gott) ...
That's all.
As for the Hebrew YHWH - there is a very rich theology - and a lot of wonderful 'mystery' connected with all of that - and I'm not dismissing it for one nanosecond.
But it's not about shibboleths - we're talking about the Ineffable and Indescribable here.
Any language about God is bound, by its very nature, to be inadequate. We can only talk about God at all by resorting to a degree of symbolism, metaphor, allusion, apophatic and cataphatic formularies etc etc.
How could it be otherwise?
We are talking about Almighty God here, not the bloke next door.
The One who Was, who Is and who Is to come.
Eutychus is right, the key aspect is the Incarnation - the Word becoming flesh. In order to grasp that we need the Trinitarian formularies, the Christological formularies and so on that the Christian Church hammered out in the first few centuries.
And yes, we need to look to and respect the Jewish heritage in all of this - there were the first Monotheists as far as we can tell ... (although there are hints from Genesis, of course, that Monotheism preceded Judaism as a systematic belief system ... whether we take these things as literal 'history' or not)...
It's interesting that in 2007 Pope Benedict checked to see whether the term 'Yahweh' was offensive to Jewish groups when considering whether it should be used in vernacular translations of the scriptures.
As far as I know, the Vatican still recommends that it isn't used in vernacular worship or in new translations of the Bible - I'm not sure why - but no doubt someone will have some kind of daft conspiracy theory as to why that might be ...
Perhaps the Roman Catholic God isn't the God of the Bible either ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
But Yes, Muslims have a god called Allah and they think he is God. (He isn't.)
If that were translated into Arabic and back into English it would read: "Muslims have a god called God and they think he is God". I can't illustrate how meaningless your argument is any more clearly than that.
quote:
By the way perhaps you would like to swap with them? All of a sudden your women have a different dress code and inferior status? You now have the Hajj to go on? You have to jump through a million hoops to get unattainable perfection and your founding apostle married a girl of 6 and consummated the marriage when she was 9?
No, I wouldn't like to swap, and if that is the level of argument to which you are reduced, then I think I can safely rest my case.
I persist in my belief that the crucial (ha ha) element is the person and work of Christ, and that the biggest problem with Islam is not the name by which they refer to God but their missing out on the New Covenant and their resulting persistence in legalism.
(A trait they share with a lot of self-professed Christians in my view. Many Christians would also support women having a different dress code and inferior status, and eagerly embrace, in deed if not in word, the prospect of perfection if enough "Christian" hoops are jumped through).
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
So you agree it is about the character of God and not about semantics.
And
You want to share the gospel of Christ with them.
Works for me.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
God is kind.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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itsarumdo
Shipmate
# 18174
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Posted
At risk of stepping into deep water here, my understanding of history is that Islam was liberal until Genghis Khan wiped out its cultural centres and left entire cities in rubble, full of decapitated men, women and children. Up to that point, the Sharia was updated every 10 years to account for changing common consent. It's perhaps also relevant that the Christian church became much more internally violent to dissenters over the next 200 or so years - maybe because it also had its foundations shaken by the crushing massacre of the cream of knightly Christendom in eastern Europe by the same Mongol armies.
All of which is a long way from the question as to how much making a religion ABOUT Jesus Christ was the original intention that Christ had when he was alive. Probably unanswerable by reference to any text, because every religious text I've come across can be milked for whatever position one cares to take. I was more curious about what the answer to the question feels like.
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"Iti sapis potanda tinone" Lycophron
Posts: 994 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Jul 2014
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
So you agree it is about the character of God and not about semantics.
I'm not sure I do, actually. What is the "it" you are talking about?
My view is that the Muslim understanding of the character of God is imperfect in that it is lacking the revelation of God in Jesus Christ.
It is emphatically not that the Muslim characterisation of God is such that they cannot possibly be seeking to worship the same God as Christians do.
Neither do I believe that the Muslim understanding of the character of God is inextricably linked to the Arabic word Allah, any more than I believe the Christian understanding of the character of God is intextricably linked to the Hebrew tetragrammaton.
Neither do I believe that the word Allah is semantically or spiritually tainted by its alleged association with some primitive moon god, any more than I believe the English word God is semantically or spiritually tainted by its origins as a word used to describe a pagan libation.
And finally, I believe that to caricature Muslim belief, either explicitly or implicitly, as equivalent to the worship of Ba'al or some demonic force, is to fall prey to prejudice and completely miss the potential for connecting with God-fearing people with whom we have more in common than our prejudices might comfortably allow us to suspect - even if I still think they are in need of "having the way of God explained to them more adequately".
[ 02. January 2015, 22:19: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Not only do you not understand how language works, Jamat, but you obviously haven't read Eutychus's responses properly either.
What he's saying is that the Muslims lack the full revelation of God in Christ reconciling the world to Himself - of Christ as God.
Show me where Eutychus is saying that we should ditch Christianity and become Muslim?
Ok, I know you're speaking hyperbolically but all you are doing is running the risk of displaying your own ignorance.
Eutychus is a linguist and Irish Lord used to live in Turkey and is familiar with the actual languages spoken in the Middle East.
You aren't.
Hi Gamaliel,
Yes I am sorry for not understanding how language works. Man in English homme in French etc, Allah in Arabic God in English.
Not about that stuff IMV but your mileage varies.
I know that Moslems mean God when they say Allah. But I do not. I mean their understanding of the Q'ran's deity which is not what I mean by God. When I use the word God. I mean the one who incarnated himself in the Christ person to identify with me and reconcile me to himself. My point is that their object of worship is not mine.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
My point is that their object of worship is not mine.
How can you possibly know that?
Do you think worship (or at least attempted worship) is conditional upon adequate understanding of the Godhead?
Don't you think Cornelius was worshipping God before his angelic visitation? Before Peter preached to his household? How? How come his prayers came up as acceptable before the Lord given he didn't even know of Christ?
Don't you think the Bible rather hammers home that even as believers we "see through a glass darkly" and that God the Father dwells in light inaccessible? Who can know the mind of God?
And what about the Samaritan woman? Do you think she had the wrong object of worship before Jesus revealed his identity to her?
And the people in Athens who Paul said were worshipping God unawares, even though they did not know him?
[ 02. January 2015, 22:27: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
So you agree it is about the character of God and not about semantics.
I'm not sure I do, actually. What is the "it" you are talking about?
My view is that the Muslim understanding of the character of God is imperfect in that it is lacking the revelation of God in Jesus Christ.
It is emphatically not that the Muslim characterisation of God is such that they cannot possibly be seeking to worship the same God as Christians do.
Neither do I believe that the Muslim understanding of the character of God is inextricably linked to the Arabic word Allah, any more than I believe the Christian understanding of the character of God is intextricably linked to the Hebrew Tetragrammaton.
'It' is the real issue, what we mean when we refer to the maker of the universe.
I get you believe most Moslems are people of good faith and that all us humans have a yen to discover the true maker of the universe. I agree.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
My point is that their object of worship is not mine.
How can you possibly know that?
They'd be Christians if it was.
I know people can legitimately worship without full awareness of the nature of what they worship. I do it myself!
I think the point is that Islam's deity is quite specific in his character and requirements.
Cornelius was a Jewish proselyte, the woman at the well had understanding of the Jewish world view. Those situations are not analogous with a religion like Islam whose deity operates with very little in common with Ist century Judaism in the behaviours he requires of his devotees. The only common ground is that it is monotheistic.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
My point is that their object of worship is not mine.
How can you possibly know that?
They'd be Christians if it was.
So do Jews worship a false God because they don't acknowledge the Holy Trinity? I would argue no, they worship the same God, only in partial knowledge of his character.
Mohammed was discipled by Christians and Jews living on the Arab peninsula before he wrote the Koran, he took the word "Allah" from them to describe the same God that they/we worship in the context of his 'new revelation'. He believed that he was writing a 'third testment' to continue the scriptures.
It's similar to how the Morman faith worships the same God as Christians, only they've distorted His image to the point where it's not really the same God. But do they worship a different God, or just have a different/flawed understanding of the true God?
As I understand you however, you're not making the case that the Muslim understanding of God is simply different/divergent from the Christian understanding: you're making the case they they simply conjured up a whole different deity altogether.
That is quite simply false.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Here's a simple question:
I have read and heard a lot about Allah being the same God as the OT God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Is Allah the same as the God of Moses?
The Muslims believe that Moses was a prophet of Allah, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The context for my question is the fact that the God who revealed himself in the burning bush and who led the Israelites to the Promised Land revealed a certain character and entered into a certain covenant with the Jews.
Is that the same God as Allah?
The Christian understanding of the character of God is more developed and nuanced than that of Moses's generation: so you may say that Mohammed was wrong about the character of God, but not that he created a whole new God simply because he described Him differently.
We didn't create a whole new God, and we describe Him differently.
Also, most Christians aren't dispensationalists and view Christ as the new covenant and simultaneously as the end of the old covenant: are you saying that I don't worship the God of Moses because I don't accept the old Judaic covenant to be currently valid?
It's interesting to me how you're so willing to embrace a religion that firmly, sometimes violently, rejects Christ; yet you're so antagonistic towards a religion that at least acknowledges Christ as a prophet of God and a Holy man.
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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain
Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
And what about the Samaritan woman? Do you think she had the wrong object of worship before Jesus revealed his identity to her?
Good point. The quote is;
quote:
You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.
There is a big difference between the accusation that you worship something that isn't God versus a God that you do not know.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
My point is that their object of worship is not mine.
How can you possibly know that?
They'd be Christians if it was.
In similar vein to Irish_Lord99 and mdijon, I think this is incredibly presumptuous.
I worship God because he's God, not because he and his characteristics tick all my personal boxes as an acceptable "object of worship". To be honest, I'm confused about some of his characteristics and like I say, I think it is in his nature that some of them are impossible to apprehend.
The line taken by Paul in Athens was not that the (non-Jewish, non-proselyte) Athenians were worshipping the wrong god because his characteristics were different, but that their understanding of the true God was imperfect.
In Acts 17:23 Paul notes that the Athenians worshipped an "unknown God" - whose characteristics were thus by definition completely different from a God who reveals himself. He does not say "you have the wrong object of worship" but "So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this [not some new improved god] is what I am going to proclaim to you".
In the address that follows, there is nothing whatsoever about Israel or any special names for God, YHWH or otherwise. In summary, God's characteristics are: all-powerful maker of heaven and earth, the author and sustainer of all life, not made by human hands, inhabiting human temples, or resembling human images, and unequivocally one.
Paul goes on to speak of the resurrection of God's appointed man (sic) from the dead as proof of his work, but can you point to anything in the first part of the description that is not consistent with the characteristics of God as understood by Muslims?
If not, why on earth would your starting point in any discussion with Muslims be to say "excuse me, but you have the wrong object of worship" rather than "I believe there is more to be learned about the God we worship"?
[ 03. January 2015, 07:39: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Perhaps the concept of idolatry as it is revealed in the bible would help. The general idea is that the human heart is an "idol factory" which produces false gods (AKA idols) by making illegitimate concepts, ideas, experiences, behaviours, ideologies etc. into things of ultimate importance thereby usurping the place reserved exclusively for God as he is revealed in the bible. It seems to me that you're arguing at this from the wrong angle; not everything which humanity wishes to call God conforms to the God who is revealed in Scripture. Insofar as these 'gods' depart from the God revealed in the Bible, they are idols or false gods. So, what must we believe about the God revealed in the bible in order for our God to not be an idol? For that we have the ecumenical creeds.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
So a disagreement regarding a point in the creed is the tipping point into idolatory? That would include the Jews as idol worshipers, and either the Orthodox or the West depending on which side you take.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
My point is that their object of worship is not mine.
How can you possibly know that?
They'd be Christians if it was.
In similar vein to Irish_Lord99 and mdijon, I think this is incredibly presumptuous.
I worship God because he's God, not because he and his characteristics tick all my personal boxes as an acceptable "object of worship". To be honest, I'm confused about some of his characteristics and like I say, I think it is in his nature that some of them are impossible to apprehend.
The line taken by Paul in Athens was not that the (non-Jewish, non-proselyte) Athenians were worshipping the wrong god because his characteristics were different, but that their understanding of the true God was imperfect.
In Acts 17:23 Paul notes that the Athenians worshipped an "unknown God" - whose characteristics were thus by definition completely different from a God who reveals himself. He does not say "you have the wrong object of worship" but "So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this [not some new improved god] is what I am going to proclaim to you".
In the address that follows, there is nothing whatsoever about Israel or any special names for God, YHWH or otherwise. In summary, God's characteristics are: all-powerful maker of heaven and earth, the author and sustainer of all life, not. made by human hands, inhabiting human temples, or resembling human images, and unequivocally one.
Paul goes on to speak of the resurrection of God's appointed man (sic) from the dead as proof of his work, but can you point to anything in the first part of the description that is not consistent with the characteristics of God as understood by Muslims?
Well I certainly agree with you that there are mysteries about God and that to a large degree we worship a God whom we can only understand in a limited way and also that there are many sincere followers of Islam who do the same. But that sincerity does not make their deity the same as the Christian one and I would be surprised if they thought it was.
But surely regarding Acts 17, the point is that you can't separate the first part from the latter part. Islam says God does not have a son. Jesus on the contrary says he does and he is that son. My presumption as you put it is about that point of contention. I worship God through Christ but they don't recognise Christ in that way. Therefore if they and I are to have the same object of worship then one or other of us has to redefine that deity. In Acts 17 Paul uses the unknown God as his opening gambit to proclaim the resurrection of Christ in v31 so he does not stop at a description of God as Islam would understand him but goes well beyond what they would grant.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Our God is more orthodox than their God?
Is ours kind?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I'm not sure even the creeds are a cast-iron defence against an idolatrous view of God. I think we're all capable of allowing our assumptions and views to accrete around our understanding of God and become part of the object of our worship. Whether it is the Church for Catholics, the Bible for Protestants, or coffee for Episcopalians, things have a tendency to attack themselves to our conception of God. C. S. Lewis refers to it as the desire to believe in "Christianity and ________", hence his focus on Mere Christianity.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
I worship God through Christ but they don't recognise Christ in that way. Therefore if they and I are to have the same object of worship then one or other of us has to redefine that deity.
In which case the Jews worship a different God as well.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
And Mormons. And Jehovah's Witnesses. And Oneness Pentecostals.
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