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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How important is growth in faith or spirituality?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not 'resistant' to the concept of growth - how does the verse go? 'First the seed, and then the ear, then the full corn in the ear'?
Essentially, though, I think it's God's business and not ours. Our responsibility is to apply ourselves to the spiritual disciplines and means of grace without comparing ourselves with anyone else.
I think Galatians 6:4-6 speaks to this to a certain extent.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+6%3A4-6&version=KJV
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
We can all spout pious sounding platitudes - it's how we treat the people around us that counts.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
It is up to us to apply ourselves, Gamaliel, I agree, and to allow God to do the necessary. This also means not standing in God's way. But surely the verse you referred does encourage us to judge ourselves.
Martin, I don't think it's enough to simply treat each other well. It's not enough unless we love each other as if we're brothers and sisters, and to love God with our whole being. If that's a pious platitude, I don't regret spouting it. Not until we're at that place are we spiritually mature; nor is our faith, imv.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
It is up to us to apply ourselves, Gamaliel, I agree, and to allow God to do the necessary. This also means not standing in God's way. But surely the verse you referred does encourage us to judge ourselves.
Martin, I don't think it's enough to simply treat each other well. It's not enough unless we love each other as if we're brothers and sisters, and to love God with our whole being. If that's a pious platitude, I don't regret spouting it. Not until we're at that place are we spiritually mature; nor is our faith, imv.
Yes, there are scriptural references to judging ourselves - this isn't the only one.
As for loving everyone equally and as if they were our brothers and sisters - that's a worthy aspiration and I'm sure we can all improve at this ... but it's not something I think we can wake up one morning having fully achieved.
If you can, then you are a better man than I am, Gunga Din.
I don't doubt that certain people do attain a high level of love for God and their fellow man ... but there's always going to be room for improvement.
As for 'loving God with our whole being' - what does that actually mean and what does it involve?
How do we measure it?
How do we know if we only love God with 20%, 25%, 48.62% or 78.91% of our 'whole being'?
How do we know? How can we tell?
We can attempt to judge and assess these things as much as we like but our own efforts to do so are bound to be flawed and partial.
We can easily succumb to what the Russians call 'prelest' - spiritual pride. Or we can all too easily veer off in the opposite direction into a kind of false humility of the Uriah Heep 'ever so 'umble' kind.
I'd hazard a guess that those who are 'spiritually mature' don't go around assessing whether they or anyone else are up-to-the-mark spiritually speaking ... they're too busy simply getting on with loving God and loving their neighbour.
It's difficult to talk about these things without sounding as if we're bandying pious platitudes around.
Which is one reason why I'm not sure how helpful it is to do so nor to write on internet boards about the extent to which we believe ourselves to be 'growing in faith' or 'developing spiritual maturity' ...
I'm not suggesting that we are setting ourselves up for a fall, necessarily, simply that it isn't really the right issue to address.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
The thread is about exploration of the importance of growth, Gamaliel. As such, I've found most comments very helpful.
It's interesting that you return again to the implication that somehow I am assessing myself here, falling into the sin of spiritual pride and coming out with pious language, when all I have done is to introduce Biblical language and principles. I wonder where this comes from, and wonder whether it has an application in the kind of self assessment we've been talking about.
When we judge ourselves, do we automatically judge others as we make comparisons?
As to how we know whether or not we love God with the whole self, this like the love of one another will always fall short in our assessment, unless we do in fact fall into the trap of spiritual pride. The extent doesn't seem to matter, but the assessment does, so that we continue to strive, to aim for the goal, the highest standard set by God. Failure to do so surely brings with it the danger of complacency.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
If I have not charity.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
I think Raptor Eye has it right - making a sober, honest assessment of our spiritual situation and progress does not necessitate either spiritual pride or false humility.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'd hazard a guess that those who are 'spiritually mature' don't go around assessing whether they or anyone else are up-to-the-mark spiritually speaking ... they're too busy simply getting on with loving God and loving their neighbour.
On the contrary, I think a marker of spiritual maturity is that we accurately discern the state of our soul and take action to open ourselves up to God's transforming power. So that we can more effectively get on with loving God and loving our neighbour.
And shouldn't there also, within each Christian community, be an element of (lovingly, graciously) helping one another to discern our spiritual condition? We don't always see our own strengths and weaknesses accurately, so we need others who know and love us to help point out how we are doing and to support us in the journey of being transformed more into godliness.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I was clumsy in the way I expressed myself back there, Raptor Eye - I agree that some form of assessment is necessary.
I 'spose it's the way these things are sometimes expressed that makes me feel uncomfortable.
I wish we could find a way of discussing these issues that didn't sound either overly pietistic or 'holier-than-thou'-ish ... even if that isn't the intention. And I'm sure neither of those are the intention in your case.
I agree that there should be an 'intentionality' about all of this, though and that we have to 'continue to strive, to aim for the goal' - as you put it.
How we do that is going to vary according to a number of factors - our particular cultural and ecclesial context and background and so on and so forth.
What is valued as a sign of 'spiritual growth' in some settings may not necessarily be regarded as such in others.
I'd also suggest that the danger of spiritual pride is ever present.
Back in the day, in the charismatic evangelical circles in which I moved (and I'm not picking them out for censure, simply using them as an example as that's been my background and experience) I used to be 'known' for my Bible knowledge and my ability to quote chapter and verse. I could reel off whole chunks of scripture and so on.
I could also pray lengthy, impressive-sounding extemporary prayers peppered and laced with biblical quotes galore.
Everyone thought that was great.
Had there been a barometer of 'spiritual growth' and progress that valued that sort of thing, I'd have scored highly.
Irrespective of whether the ability to do those things was good, bad or indifferent, I'd say now that they weren't necessarily a real marker - in and of themselves - of spiritual growth and progress.
Sure, there's nothing wrong with Bible knowledge, nor with the ability to 'craft' prayers in such a way as to get loud 'Amens' ... but ultimately, unless there's loads of love there - as per 1 Corinthians 13 - I could easily become a clanging gong and a resounding cymbal.
Just as I often make a lot of noise to no particular purpose here aboard Ship!
This is where the discernment angle comes in - and where - as South Coast Kevin says, we need others to help us.
How the 'one another' aspect is going to work out on the ground also depends on a whole range of factors - cultural and educational background, 'churchmanship' and Christian tradition, etc etc etc.
I'd agree there's no room for complacency, but at the same time I'm rather wary these days of the kind of over-blown, spiritual-sounding language in which some of these aspects are couched.
Whenever I come across friends from my former church affiliation - either in real life or on-line - I love them to bits - but they all sound rather 'self-consciously' spiritual in the way they speak and the way they write. I'm not questioning their integrity or the genuine quality of their faith - simply saying that I find their way of expressing these things to sound uncomfortable and somewhat 'unreal' in a world where shit happens so regularly.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I s'pose I've been influenced by the Orthodox on these boards and in real life on some of my views on these issues.
I've always liked - and struggled with - the story from the Desert Fathers of the abbot who leads an exemplary life and is widely admired and respected by his fellow monks for his godliness and faith.
Yet on his death-bed this same abbot was heard crying out to God for mercy.
The monks are shocked. What has their esteemed abbot done that he is crying out to God for mercy in such a way?
Eventually, one of the younger monks approaches the old man. 'Abba,' he says, 'We have known your reputation for faith and charity, many of the older brothers among us have known you for years and found you a constant example of godliness and faith. How is that you are now crying out to God for mercy as one who has never repented?'
'My son,' the abbot replied, 'I have not even begun to repent ...'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Back in the day, in the charismatic evangelical circles in which I moved (and I'm not picking them out for censure, simply using them as an example as that's been my background and experience) I used to be 'known' for my Bible knowledge and my ability to quote chapter and verse. I could reel off whole chunks of scripture and so on.
I could also pray lengthy, impressive-sounding extemporary prayers peppered and laced with biblical quotes galore.
Everyone thought that was great.
Had there been a barometer of 'spiritual growth' and progress that valued that sort of thing, I'd have scored highly.
But the problem here, as you suggest, is that these things are absolutely not accurate markers of spiritual growth / maturity. This doesn't mean assessing one another's spiritual growth / maturity is a bad or dangerous thing to do; it means we need to look for things other than Bible knowledge, eloquence in extempore prayer etc.
I'm sure you'd agree things like love, joyfulness, peace, kindness, self-control, gentleness and faithfulness are more accurate barometers of someone's spiritual condition. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well yes, I thought that was axiomatic in what I was saying to be honest ...
But again, those qualities are not the sole prerogative of Christians necessarily ... they can be found elsewhere and everywhere - just as their absence can be marked in avowedly Christian settings too.
Which is why it's ultimately pretty tricky to pin these things down and define or 'assess' them as if we have some kind of multiple choice questionnaire to complete ...
'Let's see ... marks out of 10 for the fruits of the Spirit ...
Love - 6/10
Joy - 7/10
Peace - 5/10 - could do better ...'
Now, I know you're not advocating any such thing but I'm simply saying why I don't feel entirely comfortable with 'self-appointed' attempts to assess our own spiritual progress.
Sure, it needs doing in some way - but I'm not entirely sure how it needs to be done necessarily nor how we even go about trying to assess these things in any definitive sense ... other than to spot and highlight broad trends perhaps.
Clearly, if I'm hitting the bottle regularly and bad-mouthing people then I'm not growing in grace necessariy ... but at the same time I might outwardly look as if I'm doing great - saying and doing all the 'right things' but inwardly I could be an 'unclean tomb, full of dead men's bones' ... as it were.
We have to tread carefully, or 'walk softly' as the old Puritans would have said.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
When I pray to God to be more patient (for example) He keeps sending me people who drive me mad with impatience. It's very annoying.
Fly safe,
Pyx_e.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Also (and this from AA): Have I been going to church for 20 years or 1 year 20 times?
Fly safe.
Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But again, those qualities are not the sole prerogative of Christians necessarily ... they can be found elsewhere and everywhere - just as their absence can be marked in avowedly Christian settings too.
Agreed 100%. But so what; is anyone saying otherwise? I don't think I understand your point.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Sure, it needs doing in some way - but I'm not entirely sure how it needs to be done necessarily nor how we even go about trying to assess these things in any definitive sense ... other than to spot and highlight broad trends perhaps.
...We have to tread carefully, or 'walk softly' as the old Puritans would have said.
Again, I agree - we indeed must tread carefully, both with ourselves and with others. But ISTM you have grave doubts as to the worth of even trying to assess our own and others' spiritual growth / condition.
I think, though, we have to try, because spiritual growth - becoming more like Christ, expressing more of his character and nature - is pretty much the heart of Christian faith, IMO. Repentance (turning our life around), taking ungodly thoughts captive, being transformed into Christlikeness (which is self-sacrificial love of God and of others) by the divine renewal of our mind - ISTM that's what Christianity is all about.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Again, I agree - we indeed must tread carefully, both with ourselves and with others. But ISTM you have grave doubts as to the worth of even trying to assess our own and others' spiritual growth / condition.
I think, though, we have to try, because spiritual growth - becoming more like Christ, expressing more of his character and nature - is pretty much the heart of Christian faith, IMO. Repentance (turning our life around), taking ungodly thoughts captive, being transformed into Christlikeness (which is self-sacrificial love of God and of others) by the divine renewal of our mind - ISTM that's what Christianity is all about.
You see spiritual growth and growth in faith as vital to Christianity then, SCK?
I lean toward that view. I see spiritual directors as important to help us when we feel as if we're stagnating - even if to remind us that desert experiences are sometimes necessary. I do see the difficulties and dangers with self-assessment, except that we're not doing so alone, we can rely on God the Holy Spirit to show us the error of our ways.
I like the story Gamaliel and found your reflections helpful, thank you.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure we're on completely different pages, Raptor Eye and South Coast Kevin ... but possibly at different paragraphs on the same page ...
I won't stretch the analogy by attempting to second-guess which (if any) of us are further down the page than the others ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Like all analogies, that analogy will only take us so far.
Anyhow, I don't think I'm saying that it's futile to even attempt to assess our spiritual state - whether individually or corporately - simply that no 'method' is infallible and there's always going to be the possibility that we - as well as anyone else - are going to 'get it wrong' or end up getting the wrong end of various sticks.
Which doesn't mean that we shouldn't try. 'We see as in a glass darkly' and so on.
It's easy, when striking a note of caution, to sound like one is throwing out the baby with the bathwater ... I hope I haven't done that nor given the impression that this is what I want to do.
I don't know if that makes things any clearer in terms of my own 'position' on these things - insofar as I have a position.
I think it's one of the elastic band things I keep banging on about ... the elastic band thing and the both/and not either/or thing ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Don't worry Raptor Eye. There's no risk of us ever being, ever doing enough. No risk that we'll ever treat each other well enough that we'll be found wanting in any other regard. We'll never love God enough that way let alone any other way, whatever that might be.
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Love wins
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not sure we're on completely different pages, Raptor Eye and South Coast Kevin ... but possibly at different paragraphs on the same page ...
Which only makes sence if spiritual growth is linear.
It isn't.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, of course balaam - which is another good reason why the analogy is flawed.
I've already said it was a flawed analogy.
I'm not saying that spiritual growth/development is linear. I was simply meckin' about with a well-worn phrase/cliche - about people being 'on the same page'.
It was a play on that not a literal description of how these things work ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I dunno ... literalists, literalists ... I'm surrounded by literalists ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
You see spiritual growth and growth in faith as vital to Christianity then, SCK?
Very much so. We Christians are God's hands and feet in the world; we are supposed to express Christ's ways and nature to those around us. The more closely we have the mind and the character of Christ, the better we can do those things.
quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
I do see the difficulties and dangers with self-assessment, except that we're not doing so alone, we can rely on God the Holy Spirit to show us the error of our ways.
I'd add that it's very important to do all this in community. None of us discern God's will perfectly, so we all need a Christian community around us to help us catch what God is saying.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Anyhow, I don't think I'm saying that it's futile to even attempt to assess our spiritual state - whether individually or corporately - simply that no 'method' is infallible and there's always going to be the possibility that we - as well as anyone else - are going to 'get it wrong' or end up getting the wrong end of various sticks.
Thing is Gamaliel, ISTM you are correcting things that no one is actually saying in this thread. Who has said that any 'method' is infallible? Who has denied the possibility of 'getting it wrong' or ending up getting the wrong end of various sticks? I don't get why you've felt it necessary to give these corrections, sorry....
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Fair do's.
I agree with you on the community aspect and much else besides ...
In sounding some notes of caution and stating the obvious - that we don't always get it right - it doesn't mean I'm suggesting that any one here is necessarily going 'too far' or 'getting it wrong'.
I can understand your puzzlement, though. Why strike a note of caution when such a thing is axiomatic?
Hmmm ...
I s'pose part of it is to do with my own experiences in set-ups where certain wonky things weren't always corrected in time - and some not at all.
But I would agree that it is possible to go to the equal and opposite extreme and either become complacent or not be interested in the whole area of spiritual growth and development at all.
Howbeit, in principle I think we are all on the same page ... if that's the right metaphor to use.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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