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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: We don't sing any more
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
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My congregation sings with varying levels of enthusiasm. Personal prejudice follows: I find it much, much easier to sing hymns, even unfamiliar ones, with 4 or 5 verses and a predictable rhythm, so even if I don't know the hymn at the start, by verse 3 I'll know what I'm doing. The loudest and most enthusiastic singing I've heard at our place lately was to And Can It Be. Rightly so, too, I think. I love that hymn.
Yes, indeed!
quote:
Originally posted by Jemima the 9th:
I do find modern songs more difficult for congregations - especially if you have a worship leader who doesn't read music and picks up the songs from youtube recordings or Matt Redman / Hillsong albums. The rhythms are more complex, and because the music often seems to be scribed from a concert, they may not be the same in each verse. I also think it's morally wrong to inflict a bridge or instrumental solo on a congregation. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Coupled with a worship leader being more of a performer than a leader, leads to a total lack of the ability to sing pretty much anything.
We sang carols in church on Sunday. One was to an unfamiliar tune, and the others had word changes all over the place. Makes me want to stay home in December! Does no one understand that repetition is a key to remembering? That predictability is a key to being able to sing properly - especially when all one has to go on is words (no music) on a power point which may not change quickly enough for you to start the next phrase on time? Guessing on every note is problematic enough - guessing on the words as well is ![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
Posts: 7772 | From: Canada; Washington DC; Phoenix; it's complicated | Registered: Oct 2001
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
I admire people who can pick up a tune as they sing – if it's unfamiliar I want to have the music, and then I'll sing anything.
I think these are two mutually exclusive skills.
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I admit I usually pull back to "barely heard" in church because to sing even normal volume is to stand out and I don't want to be accused of trying to call attention to myself.
From someone who sings badly (I'm usually in the same county as the tune), please sing out ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I sing in church. I want to sing in church, but everyone else really doesn't want to hear me. I need people like you, who can sing, to sing out loud and proud to help me follow the tune, and to mask my off-key voice.
AIUI the notes that a bad singer sings in tune with the organ will resonate much more effectively than the ones they sing out of tune. In consequence a congregation of bad singers will actually sound much better than the sum of its parts.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Jude
Shipmate
# 3033
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Posted
I used to attend a church where you could hear the music outside - drums, guitars etc. The singing was enthusiastic, but the theology was sadly lacking.
Long ago, I attended a certain Cathedral in south west England. "No one sings in this Cathedral" I used to say, until I joined the Voluntary Choir, which I enjoyed singing with on Sunday evenings.
Now I am more a parish church attendee. On Sunday my mother went to her local church carol service. It was well attended and she had to sit at the back rather than the front where she normally sits. She said that nobody around her was singing.
I enjoy singing in the choir with my local parish church. At the end of the service we sing a song, "Go in peace" which all the congregation like to join in with.
Now one big thing that choral singing can help with - on Monday I shall be going to the funeral of somebody who used to sing bass in the church choir where I grew up. Last year we sang Christmas csrols at the old people's home where he lived. He had dementia and did not remember us or why we were there, but when we sang "O come all ye faithful" he sang bass and remembered all the words and music all the way through.
Goodbye Ian, may you sing bass in the heavenly choir.
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"...But I always want to know the things one shouldn’t do.”
“So as to do them?” asked her aunt.
“So as to choose,” said Isabel.
Henry James - The Portrait of A Lady
Posts: 233 | From: A town with four parishes | Registered: Jul 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
On Saturday morning the Salvation Army band were playing and my mind immediately went into carol singing mode! I know all the words, having been a member of choirs for years when young and having a good memory for words, but (a) I find it too difficult to suspend my disbelief of the old-fashioned words, and (b) my voice definitely creaks a lot!! I think it is a great shame that those rousing tunes do not have up-to-date, vigorous, powerful words to replace the very rose-tinted, 19th century ones. All the way home I was singing it in my head, but taking each line and looking at it from a scientific point of view!
By the way, it was, Hark, the Herald Angels sing'.
Oh dear do you take each line of a Shakespearean sonnet or a Beatles song and look at it from a "scientific point of view" too? What a terribly sad way to destroy the joy of music and poetry.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I've asked my 10 year old and they are singing carols in assembly time at the moment, presumably also in practice for tonight's village carol service. I know they occasionally have hymns in assembly too, though rather of the withy washy sort.
I love the way our church can mix it's genres, from modern worship songs to trad hymns - as mentioned above, those like 'And can it be' are sung with great gusto. We're having 2 carol services next Sunday, one with the usual carols and readings and a later one with a more classical feel; harp, choral pieces, solos etc. Our location means we are quite lucky with the talents of the congregation.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
I admire people who can pick up a tune as they sing – if it's unfamiliar I want to have the music, and then I'll sing anything.
I think these are two mutually exclusive skills.
GG
It's possible to have both. I used to need the dots, but then I got into the folk scene.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
All the way home I was singing [Hark, the Herald Angels sing] in my head, but taking each line and looking at it from a scientific point of view!
Nope, you did not do that at all.
What you may have done is to look at each line from the particular philosophical point of view that you hold, which - judging by prior conversation - is some kind of naive metaphysical naturalism that informs the contemporary atheism which you so cheerfully believe in.
And what this could have made you think about is that maybe, just maybe, the inability of your philosophy to write songs that make your heart sing points to a problem with your philosophy. But admittedly that would require a somewhat wider view of "evidence" than just "empirical data suitable for mathematical modelling".
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Ingo, I've often disagreed with you in the past, but on this occasion ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Here in ground zero for the megachurch movement, many of our megachurches are places where the congregational singing is most energetic and engaged. Others... not so much.
To an extent it is determined by the worship leader. Equally though it's often a function of scale (sizewise), rhythm and volume. Usually it ends up working despite the elements picked up on in the post you responded to, rather than because of them.
I've been in mega-church settings a number of times where a rhythmically simpler song to which everyone knows the words has been sung - and suddenly the volume goes up, and you are aware to what extent everything that went before was a form of skillful production.
[For the record I've been a musician and sound engineer in a number of settings].
I purposely avoided using the 'h' word in the previous paragraph, because it seems to me that their success lay in keeping things in common meter, keeping melisma to a minimum and pitching things so that everyone couldsing them.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I'm also disappointed at the loss of communal singing. So many people when asked to sing, reply in an oddly embarrassed way, that nobody would want to hear them sing. I'm wondering if the plethora of talent quests has given people the idea that you need to have a specific talent in order to sing. There are very few people who can't sing, even if they have trouble pitching a tune. Certainly there is very little singing in our schools, and in Australia I find that most males seem to regard singing as a 'sissy' occupation except in rock bands. At church, the males seem to hide under the pews rather than participate even when I know they can sing. I don't know what the solution is. The old fashioned family singing around the piano has gone, but has not really been replaced with anything that gives people the chance to develop their skills.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
bib: quote:
I'm wondering if the plethora of talent quests has given people the idea that you need to have a specific talent in order to sing.
Judging by the quality of most entrants to these ghastly TV talent shows... no. No, it hasn't.
I think the real problem is that a lot of people just don't know that many songs with enough of a melody line to be sung unaccompanied. Most pop songs don't sound particularly interesting without the instrumental accompaniment.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Amanda wrote:
quote:
In Catholic churches people traditionally did not sing, and I have seen that this is still the case. There are some congregations, though, where the people do join in.
Well, in Canada, there was a worship manual, which at least when I was still practicing(late 80s) was distributed to Catholic churches across the country. The second half of the book consisted of the music and words to the songs, so I have to assume that the compilers of the book were expecting people to sing.
The Catholic Book Of Worship
My experience of RC outlets in Canada is that, should the congregation be largely anglophone of Celtic origin, there will be only gentle murmurs accompanying the worship leader. If there are regular worshippers in a francophone parish, the singing will be fair- almost at an Anglican level - but if it is a more generally-attended service (such as at Easter), most of the congregation will not know the hymns at all. At Xmas, well-known hymns such are on Radio Canada's specials (e.g. Minuit chrétien) will be well sung, but anything else gets embarrassed humming-along.
If the congregation is Filipino or Caribbean, expect the roof to shake. I have heard the local Tamil congregation is full-voiced, but have yet to check this out.
Ottawa might be exceptional in that we have a raft of good local voluntary choirs and two university schools of music, so there are quite a few professional and semi-professional musicians bolstering congregational music, mainly in UCC and Anglican circles.
Still, nothing quite beat a rural CoI service I attended in the 1970s, where we hummed along to hymns played on the gramophone.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The local RC shack hosted the Community Christmas Concert two years in the village where I lived. The hymn books only had one line of music for each hymn. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Of course, in the UCCan, being of combined Methodist, Presbyterian and Congregationalist heritage, we need no excuse to sing. The drop of a hat will do.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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the famous rachel
Shipmate
# 1258
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by cattyish:
Apparently schools have practically no formal music tuition for younger children, though I don't know whether that's local or Scotland wide.
We have a lot of pupils learning instruments (probably >50%) out here, but not that many who are willing to sing (particularly but not exclusively the boys) younger pupils are more willing so I think a lot of it is the embarrassment factor.
My perspective is slightly different - as the parent of a pre-schooler, I sing all the time! I'm working more now than I was, but we used to attend two separate toddler "music groups" which were basically singing sessions. It's the mums who sing as much or more than the kids, of course, and these sorts of groups are hugely popular. One of the two groups we went to was also pretty ambitious, with a band of four or five instruments and a mixture of classical, pop and folk songs as well as the usual children's fare, with the leaders at least, and some of the participants often singing in parts or harmony.
These days, my son goes to two different pre-school type places (for various and complex reasons) and does lots of singing at both of them. At one, he gets a fairly formal "music lesson" (mostly singing) once a week, and at the other singing along to the room-leader's guitar is a very popular activity - at the moment, with a Christmas "show" coming up, I suspect they are doing it every day. At 4, he very frequently comes home with a new song which he knows well enough to teach to me, both words and tune. (We probably have some mistakes in there of course, but we can learn them together well enough to sing as a family). He can sing simple rounds, and makes up his own alternative words to songs all the time.
Now, we as a family may be slightly unusual, in that we are into the folk music scene where audience singing is very common, and we also sing a lot at home, both around the piano, and just by ourselves. However, I don't think my son's exposure to music, at least, is particularly atypical: toddler music groups are full to bursting, and singing nursery rhymes is classic pre-school territory.
If little kids are going into school with ability (at a level appropriate for their age) and enthusiasm for singing it is a great shame if we are just letting this leak away as they get older! Songs and rhymes are such a useful way of teaching other topics if nothing else. I don't know how we get over the embarrassment factors as they get older, but I guess if we maintain singing opportunities all through school and teach them enough to sing fairly well and not feel incapable that might help?
Best wishes,
Rachel.
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A shrivelled appendix to the body of Christ.
Posts: 912 | From: In the lab. | Registered: Aug 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
The local RC shack hosted the Community Christmas Concert two years in the village where I lived. The hymn books only had one line of music for each hymn.
In the UK, even that would be unusual. It's rare for congegation hymn books to have any dots at all. Choir hymnbooks will have the music. Choir trebles are likely to have only the melody. If that. They might be expected just to learn it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If the congregation is Filipino or Caribbean, expect the roof to shake.
I attended mass in the Cathedral of Baguio, Philippines, last Sunday (well, the Saturday evening Sunday mass). Roofs were very much not shaken by the singing. But for the public recitation of the rosary before mass (and the Tagalog homily, the rest was in English), it could have easily been mistaken for some standard UK mass. I am trying to remember my previous trips, but I can't quite remember what the singing was like elsewhere in the Philippines. It certainly didn't rise to the level of "amazing" though, or it would have stuck in my memory.
I would speculate that there is a typical "cultural conservation" going on with Filipinos overseas, where immigrants "practice" their culture with an enthusiasm rarely seen in the home land.
P.S.: They picked my son - out of a Cathedral-filling Filipino crowd with plenty of kids - for lighting the advent's candle and later again for walking ahead of the gifts with a candle. On one hand, that was a nice surprise. On the other hand, I wonder whether that was not still a bit of Mestizos for the win...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Re: school choirs. Our primary school as a choir. Most years it contains about two dozen girls and no boys at all. Occasionally a boy joins, but I understand it practices at the same time as football...
It's perhaps no surprise that choirs struggle to get tenors and basses.
[ 16. December 2014, 12:59: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
I admire people who can pick up a tune as they sing – if it's unfamiliar I want to have the music, and then I'll sing anything.
I think these are two mutually exclusive skills.
GG
I usually pick up a new tune as I sing it. I'd rather not have the sheet music in front of me as I find it distracting; my sight-reading is slower than my ability to follow a tune from what's going on around me.
OTOH, I'd benefit from having the sheet music made available so that I could practise singing the hymn at home later.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
I cannot read music nor have I had any instruction on singing or on an instrument but I can pick up a new tune very easily and will sing along from the beginning.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Galloping Granny:
I admire people who can pick up a tune as they sing – if it's unfamiliar I want to have the music,
I usually pick up a new tune as I sing it. I'd rather not have the sheet music in front of me as I find it distracting;..
OTOH, I'd benefit from having the sheet music made available so that I could practise singing the hymn at home later.
CCLI has a license that allows printing copies of the music for congregational use. My church bought that license but has not used it because the band "is still adding songs" (the answer I got when I offered to do the downloading from CCLI, adjust for any tinkering with the music and changes of words the band added, and assemble the looseleaf notebooks for the congregation). That answer means it will never be printed. Not even in looseleaf form that can be added to once a quarter with the latest songs.
But, alas, the license for printed music is for in church use, not for church members to practice at home. And of course the printed collections are to be destroyed when the license is not renewed.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
All the way home I was singing [Hark, the Herald Angels sing] in my head, but taking each line and looking at it from a scientific point of view!
Nope, you did not do that at all.
What you may have done is to look at each line from the particular philosophical point of view that you hold, which - judging by prior conversation - is some kind of naive metaphysical naturalism that informs the contemporary atheism which you so cheerfully believe in.
And what this could have made you think about is that maybe, just maybe, the inability of your philosophy to write songs that make your heart sing points to a problem with your philosophy. But admittedly that would require a somewhat wider view of "evidence" than just "empirical data suitable for mathematical modelling".
Like Albertus, I don't always agree with you IngoB, but on this occasion, I agree with both you and Albertus. That gets a
My mind, incidentally, boggles at the suggestion that we ought to go through our hymns and carols and change the words to remove anything that might hinder people like Professor Dawkins from singing them with conviction.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
On Saturday morning the Salvation Army band were playing and my mind immediately went into carol singing mode! I know all the words, having been a member of choirs for years when young and having a good memory for words, but (a) I find it too difficult to suspend my disbelief of the old-fashioned words, and (b) my voice definitely creaks a lot!! I think it is a great shame that those rousing tunes do not have up-to-date, vigorous, powerful words to replace the very rose-tinted, 19th century ones. All the way home I was singing it in my head, but taking each line and looking at it from a scientific point of view!
By the way, it was, Hark, the Herald Angels sing'.
Oh dear do you take each line of a Shakespearean sonnet or a Beatles song and look at it from a "scientific point of view" too? What a terribly sad way to destroy the joy of music and poetry.
Of course not! That’s much too sweeping a statement! I would also point out that neither Shakespeare nor the Beatles had anything to do with being the inspiration for a religion. I love music and singing; both have been an important part of my life. Songs like the Liebestod from Tristan, and a cantata by Rachmaninov for instance can carry me away to ... well, I'd better not say 'another world' because I find that idea non-scientific!! - but to a feeling of ecstasy maybe. The study of poetry has not been such a major part and I prefer rhyming, i.e. rhythmic, verse, and dance to poetry.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
All the way home I was singing [Hark, the Herald Angels sing] in my head, but taking each line and looking at it from a scientific point of view!
Nope, you did not do that at all.
Ah, yes, it’s the panto season, isn’t it!! Oh, yes, I did!! Although I con cede that realistic might be a better word than scientific. quote:
What you may have done is to look at each line from the particular [philosophical point of view that you hold, which - judging by prior conversation - is some kind of naive metaphysical naturalism …
Why do you use the word ‘naive’? At my age, that’s one thing I’m not!! quote:
…that informs the contemporary atheism which you so cheerfully believe in.
Atheism, though, is not something one can believe in, is it? I simply totally lack any belief in God/god/s – a change from the belief in God I had when young. quote:
And what this could have made you think about is that maybe, just maybe, the inability of your philosophy to write songs that make your heart sing points to a problem with your philosophy. But admittedly that would require a somewhat wider view of "evidence" than just "empirical data suitable for mathematical modelling".
Well, I think I’ll have to concede that point too!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Re: school choirs. Our primary school as a choir. Most years it contains about two dozen girls and no boys at all. Occasionally a boy joins, but I understand it practices at the same time as football...
It's perhaps no surprise that choirs struggle to get tenors and basses.
In the city centre today were four (presumably homeless) men singing carols to raise money for a homeless charity. They were bravely belting out the tunes, raucously and not very musically, but with plenty of enthusiasm. They looked as if they would have been happier in a football crowd but you had to admire their guts.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I've been singing for most of my life: I was lucky enough to grow up in Orkney in the 1970s when music (choral and instrumental) in schools was very much encouraged. The school carol service (held in the cathedral) was one of the highlights of the Christmas season and we took pride in putting on a proper service, with choral and traditional congregational carols.
My Better Half, who's been the organist of a church or cathedral for over 40 years, has a theory that the better the standard of choral singing in a church, the less likely the congregation is to sing, and I think he has a point.
If the choir is voluntary, then many of the people in the congregation who are interested in singing will be in it, and the congregation will leave the singing to the choir.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
I wonder if that lovely Gareth Malone's programmes have encouraged more men to take up choral singing.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Re: school choirs. Our primary school as a choir. Most years it contains about two dozen girls and no boys at all. Occasionally a boy joins, but I understand it practices at the same time as football...
It's perhaps no surprise that choirs struggle to get tenors and basses.
In the city centre today were four (presumably homeless) men singing carols to raise money for a homeless charity. They were bravely belting out the tunes, raucously and not very musically, but with plenty of enthusiasm. They looked as if they would have been happier in a football crowd but you had to admire their guts.
I've had the privilege to participate in City Church's homeless karoke once or twice... the quality of the singing varies even more than you'd get in a bar full of drunk patrons, with a few singers being exceptional, professional-level talents. But whether the singer is great or poor, the enthusiasm of both the participants and the audience is without parallel. The homeless begin lining up almost 2 hours before the doors open. Some of that has to do with the fact that there damn little to do on Skid Row for amusement, but mostly it has to do with the way music builds a community.
[ 16. December 2014, 16:21: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
If the congregation is Filipino or Caribbean, expect the roof to shake.
I attended mass in the Cathedral of Baguio, Philippines, last Sunday (well, the Saturday evening Sunday mass). Roofs were very much not shaken by the singing. But for the public recitation of the rosary before mass (and the Tagalog homily, the rest was in English), it could have easily been mistaken for some standard UK mass. I am trying to remember my previous trips, but I can't quite remember what the singing was like elsewhere in the Philippines. It certainly didn't rise to the level of "amazing" though, or it would have stuck in my memory.
I would speculate that there is a typical "cultural conservation" going on with Filipinos overseas, where immigrants "practice" their culture with an enthusiasm rarely seen in the home land.*snip*
This is likely so, as both of the Filipino parishes I attended are community centres, and a healthy cohort of the congregation nurses or domestic workers (aka, nannies and maids) and this seems to be a gathering place for them. The other largely Filipino event I attended was a requiem for a (murdered) volunteer and former colleauge, and the musical participation was quite strong, although this may have been due to the context.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus quote:
Accompanying hymns is not at all as easy as you might think. It's something that "reluctants" (i.e. pianists pressed into playing the organ) find very difficult. If it's not done well, the result will not encourage congregational singing.
Got it in one, POI: playing for congregational hymn singing is an art - not straight accompaniment because you tend to be leading, but not playing alone either.
The variables include the size of the building, the resonance or echo plus the size of the congregation - all of that before you get onto whether or not the people seem able or prepared to join in.
In a parish situation I often think that having any choir behind the congregation can be preferable - a choir at the front can seem to be singing at the congregation which some people find off-putting.
Anyway, today I took my second session with the primary school: children sang up well, but I could have done without the staff telling me why the children 'won't/ can't sing' and generally putting a damper on proceedings. Service later this week so will report if they overall singing is better than last year.
Of course, it would help if the Head chose better carols - Silent Night maye be popular but its not the easiest for unsupported congregational singing.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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TonyK
Host Emeritus
# 35
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Posted
Having moved westward, Mrs TonyK and I now attend an Anglican church with both a large choir (40+ members, of whom 25-30 turn out for each service) and a congregation who also sing out - as we hear on the Sundays when the choir don't attend (All Age services and during August)
Plus today at the House Group I lead, the 7 of us sang (with feeling and pretty well, if I say so myself) some 20 carols in preparation for Christmas, while also enjoying mulled wine and mince pies - not at the same time!
I may not have had the benefit of choir training but I love to sing, and as Reader often have the opportunity to lead the singing. Long may my voice hold out...
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Yours aye ... TonyK
Posts: 2717 | From: Gloucestershire | Registered: May 2001
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
Continuing the Filipino tangent, I have a significant amount if experience worshipping with non-Catholic Filipinos and found them to be just like everyone else. When they were familiar with the songs they definitely sang out. When it was a new song or they had some "praise team" screaming at them there is definitely a significantly less amount of participation.
Posts: 884 | From: SF Bay Area | Registered: Feb 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Although I con cede that realistic might be a better word than scientific.
I assume you are not using "realistic" here to refer to philosophical realism, because that could be meaningfully debated. Rather you use it in the vernacular to mean "accurate, practical and true". Well, I think the way you looked at that hymns is "inaccurate, impractical and false". To assert that your point of view is "realistic" hence is simply begging the question.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Why do you use the word ‘naive’? At my age, that’s one thing I’m not!!
Age is no sure protection against any manner of foolishness. That said, I called your metaphysical naturalism - not you yourself - "naive": You are (1) largely oblivious that you are holding a specific philosophical position, being convinced instead that you rest in some kind of "objective mode of truth" (which is tragicomical); and (2) you have next to no knowledge, much less understanding, of the various philosophical challenges that have been levelled at your particular philosophy. So that is naive. "Naive" is not a synonym for "false" though, hence you can maintain the hope that you stumbled upon the truth even if you do not have the philosophical wherewithal to defend it.
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Atheism, though, is not something one can believe in, is it? I simply totally lack any belief in God/god/s – a change from the belief in God I had when young.
You accept that there is no god, indeed nothing "supernatural" at all, without yourself being able to produce anything resembling a rational "proof" for this assertion. I consider that then to be a belief that you hold. And no, referring to authority - be that in the form of persons whom you have found convincing, or the "success of science and engineering", or whatever - is not generally counted as a rational "proof" in this context.
I was not making a general statement that "atheism is a belief", which would be a different discussion. I was saying that you believe in atheism. Again, this as such says nothing about the truth or falsehood of atheism. It simply says something about how you arrive at this particular position (in my opinion).
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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kingsfold
Shipmate
# 1726
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Posted
quote:
posted by Piglet:
My Better Half, who's been the organist of a church or cathedral for over 40 years, has a theory that the better the standard of choral singing in a church, the less likely the congregation is to sing, and I think he has a point.
If the choir is voluntary, then many of the people in the congregation who are interested in singing will be in it, and the congregation will leave the singing to the choir.
Maybe we're the exception then....
Voluntary cathedral choir, very high standard and a congregation that doesn't half sing! From experience of sitting in the congregation, there are many who sing very well and will happily join the harmonies in the hymns. The congregation are always very complimentary about the choir and say how much they appreciate us, and welcome us back after an break, but when we're not there they make plenty of very joyful noise themselves.
[ 17. December 2014, 09:00: Message edited by: kingsfold ]
Posts: 4473 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Age is no sure protection against any manner of foolishness. That said, I called your metaphysical naturalism - not you yourself - "naive":
Ah, sorry, I missed that. quote:
You are (1) largely oblivious that you are holding a specific philosophical position, being convinced instead that you rest in some kind of "objective mode of truth" (which is tragicomical); and (2) you have next to no knowledge, much less understanding, of the various philosophical challenges that have been levelled at your particular philosophy. So that is naive. "Naive" is not a synonym for "false" though, hence you can maintain the hope that you stumbled upon the truth even if you do not have the philosophical wherewithal to defend it.
’stumbled upon’ it? No. I have reached the conclusions I have through a million conversations and discussions, reading, attending different churches (and a synagogue), singing, teaching, dealing with adversities, etc. quote:
You accept that there is no god, indeed nothing "supernatural" at all, without yourself being able to produce anything resembling a rational "proof" for this assertion.
As do you, surely. From the opposite direction?
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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MarsmanTJ
Shipmate
# 8689
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Got it in one, POI: playing for congregational hymn singing is an art - not straight accompaniment because you tend to be leading, but not playing alone either.
[/QB]
My organ teacher described it as 'playing in such a way to bully a congregation to sing the way you want them to.' It is much the same skill required to conduct a choir from a piano, which requires you to give musical direction from an instrument.
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Just a passing thought: I keep seeing this thread title on the boards' front page, and just thinking how desperately sad it looks. "We don't sing any more" looks - to a music lover like me - like you don't have anything to be happy about any more (or to express any other emotion about, I suppose).
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Going back to the OP, maybe Karl should find those few pubs left which still do carols in pubs, without accompaniment. I think they are all in villages around Sheffield, and here is tonight's list:
http://www.localcarols.org.uk/intro.php
I see that some of them have musical accompaniment; a poor show indeed.
[ 17. December 2014, 16:13: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Carol service today for one of the local schools.
Children sang a bit - and got the parents to sing by giving them a verse on their own.
But starting any carol service with Silent Night is never a good idea - range of an 11th make it uncomfortable for many.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
My childhood church choir used to sing the 9 lessons and carols service very demurely in church - and then decamp to the local pub where the rollocking, raucous singing would start. Both sorts were great fun!
Because my present choir is such a busy one, there are many members of the congregation who don't have time to join - but that's not a problem, because they sit in different places throughout the church and help to encourage the congregation in singing instead.
We are fortunate in having so many male singers, which I gather is quite unusual.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
’stumbled upon’ it? No. I have reached the conclusions I have through a million conversations and discussions, reading, attending different churches (and a synagogue), singing, teaching, dealing with adversities, etc.
What that typically cannot replace however is actual philosophical engagement, of which - and that is admittedly purely my own biased judgement of our past interactions - I see very little evidence with you. Now most Christians wouldn't known philosophy if it bit them in the ass. So it's not like I'm somehow requiring this for somebody to be a decent human being, or being spiritually committed one way or the other, or whatever. The problem is however this: if you ask a Christian why they say this or that, they always have the fallback option of claiming something by faith. You very insistently remove that fallback option for yourself. So when you start to make philosophical statements about the world, possibly inadvertently, and claim to have no faith, then it is entirely reasonable to ask you for your philosophical reasons for your position. For if you don't know something, and if you don't believe it either, then why are you talking?
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You accept that there is no god, indeed nothing "supernatural" at all, without yourself being able to produce anything resembling a rational "proof" for this assertion.
As do you, surely. From the opposite direction?
First, we are not in the same position at all. I readily admit that a considerable chunk of what I think is true about the world is based on faith, my belief system, not on knowledge. You don't. You claim to have no faith, so if you make propositions about the world you can be asked to motivate them by rational argument based on established fact in each and every instance. Second, I can give rational proof for the existence of God, His eternity, His omnipotence, and a whole lot of other features - purely by the light of natural reason based on the observation of nature (thus philosophy proper). I cannot do so for the entirety of the Christian faith, that's true. But I can show that the "god of philosophy", as far as it can be proven rationally, is compatible with the classical "God of Christianity". (This is not true for all Christian conception of God, for example Christian "process theology" is philosophically incompatible.) So while I typically say that I believe in God, this is not exactly true. More accurate would be to say that I know a god exists, and I believe that it is the Christian God.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I keep seeing this thread title on the boards' front page, and just thinking how desperately sad it looks. "We don't sing any more" looks - to a music lover like me - like you don't have anything to be happy about any more (or to express any other emotion about, I suppose).
But loving music is not at issue here. It is loving to produce music which this is really what this is all about.
In all the churches I have been to, when there was an announcement that there would be some "special music performance" by some "professionals", the church ended up being packed. Plenty of people are willing to listen to (good) music. Few are now wiling to make it. And fewer still are willing to sing (i.e., somebody who plays the piano is not necessarily going to be an enthusiastic singer at church).
I think the underlying issue is that singing has become a minor subsection of the particular hobby "making music".
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
... In all the churches I have been to, when there was an announcement that there would be some "special music performance" by some "professionals", the church ended up being packed. ...
Yebbut. Were they worshipping God? We sing because we worship, not just because we like making music.
Listening to a concert doesn't become worship just by being held in a church, or even because the words are religious texts.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yebbut. Were they worshipping God?
Probably not. But since that is irrelevant to the point I was making (namely that the general love of music has not disappeared, but probably the general love of music making), I see no need to discuss it further.
Here's a point though that is worth discussing: in an ancient community where nearly everybody sings frequently, e.g., to accompany work or while walking long distances, and where in particular singing together with the family at home is one of the few available entertainment options, what does communal singing in church signify to these people? Now take a modern community where few people sing regularly, and if they do then usually following some celebrity band whose music is playing on the radio, and where in particular almost nobody sings together with their family on a regular basis, what does communal singing in church signify to these people?
My point is that singing in church is now something special, just by virtue of singing together with other people. Whereas in earlier times it was special perhaps in what was being sung, and how it was sung, but singing, and singing together with others in particular also in a familial setting, was normal. I'm seeing an analogy to sharing bread and wine here. It is also normal to eat together, what is not normal in Church is what is being consumed and how this is done. But one is extending from the everyday to the spiritual there, from next of kin to the spirit family. I think with singing it was similar, a direct connection from the everyday to the spiritual, from next of kin to the community in spirit. Now this is largely gone. It is as if we all had switched to intravenous feeding in everyday life, but were still celebrating the Eucharist. There is a disconnect of meaning due to the changed habits, as far as singing is concerned.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But loving music is not at issue here. It is loving to produce music which this is really what this is all about.
That's what I mean by "music lover". I'm probably asking for trouble here, but I'd say a real music lover would never be content merely to "consume" music. Music lovers make music, or if they can't, they at least long to. I believe that making music is a defining human activity, and the greatest musical instrument ever created is the human voice. (Very few people indeed can't sing. Most who say they can't were discouraged in childhood by people - usually teachers - who did them a great wrong. A few remedial lessons are usually all that's needed.)
quote:
In all the churches I have been to, when there was an announcement that there would be some "special music performance" by some "professionals", the church ended up being packed. Plenty of people are willing to listen to (good) music. Few are now wiling to make it. And fewer still are willing to sing (i.e., somebody who plays the piano is not necessarily going to be an enthusiastic singer at church).
I think the underlying issue is that singing has become a minor subsection of the particular hobby "making music".
Here I think you're right. It's one of the contemporary Big Lies of our culture that to consume music is to be musical. It's easily refuted by looking at just how passionate so many children and teenagers are about making music, until they become frustrated by not finding an outlet for their expression.
I would rather go to a church where the music is made by everyone, perhaps not well, but with commitment, than a church where the music is made only by a polished professional few.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I'm an example of the trend Karl identifies. I'm a thirty-something from a working class unchurched background. I had never sung communally before I started going to church in my early twenties. I don't read music and have no experience of nor interest in choral or classical music (I'm basically a 90s Indie kid at heart ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ). Communal singing was just another cultural hurdle to clear in becoming a Christian. I can get by with the kind of contemporary worship which attracts much snobbery on SOF, but find traditional worship very heavy going. Its just culturally alien. Our current church alternates slightly between trad and contemp in an effort to keep everyone equally happy / unhappy and the singing on 'trad' mornings is just dead time to me. IME people like me are thin on the ground on SOF but rather commoner IRL.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
As an aside, there's the interesting question of repetition. IME clergypeople and life-long churchgoers in traditional congregations want a wide repertoire and complain if they have to sing the same thing 'too often'. I on the other hand bloody love repetition, because it helps me actually learn songs, focus on the words rather than trying to struggle along with the tune etc. Its interesting and revealing that more contemporary and / or charismatic settings are often very comfortable with repetition - it makes that style easier for outsiders to engage with.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
IME people like me are thin on the ground on SOF but rather commoner IRL.
Sadly, Yerevan, this is certainly the case.
Which is why some of us like to come onto these boards and complain about it ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Yerevan - my background is very similar to yours, I think. IMO people like us - unchurched as children and far more familiar with contemporary musical culture than with classical music etc. - will usually find traditional church a very alien, bizarre experience.
If we are going to become comfortable with church then the music (if indeed there is any significant musical content) has to be relevant to our cultural context.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Thanks for that datapoint Yerevan.
I'd like to address the "told they can't sing" thing. I think it's very true. I:
Sang as a treble in the school Choral Society (public school, strong musical tradition, had to be "good enough");
Continued in said Choral Society (most didn't) as a tenor and in a smaller more select chamber choir at the school;
Have sung small G&S tenor and baritone roles;
Regularly sing in a folk group and have received emails telling me I'm missed when I've missed a few sessions.
A reasonable assumption would be that I can sing, if not brilliantly, at least not like a cat with hot water being poured over it. And yet I've been told more times than I care to remember that I "can't sing".
What folk with a little less ear for tuning and training, experience and practice must get told I dread to think.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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