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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Twelve Days of Christmas
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
For centuries, the Twelve Days of Christmas, as I understand it, have started on Christmas Day and continued until Twelfth Night, January 6. Being encouraged by advertisers to spend the Twelve Days of Christmas buying gifts and preparing for Christmas has me confused. Are there now two lots of Twelve Days of Christmas? Can I just ignore the first twelve days and enjoy the second series?
Is this rewriting of tradition widespread?
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
It's quite simple. There's a secular Christmas that more or less starts at the beginning of December - it's when people have their Christmas parties, work lunches, put up decorations etc. This marketting ploy encouraging people into the shops is part of that.
Then there's a Christian Christmas which starts on Christmas Day, preceded by Advent.
If we're going to stand up and try to reclaim Christmas then we should a) be consistent (so, no decorations up early, no Christmas Fayres in Advent etc) and b) be prepared to be called kill-joys. Personally, I'm not that worried about what everyone else does, so I don't consider it something worth fighting over - though there may be other aspects of the secular Christmas (eg: emphasis on consumerism) that may be worth making a stand.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Then there's a Christian Christmas which starts on Christmas Day, preceded by Advent.
Now, I like the Advent/Christmas cycle. But it always provokes difficulties in my church from occasional visitors, who expect Christmas carols and are disappointed when they don't get them. (They are not satisfied by any amount of explanation). And - when all is said and done - this cycle is a tradition which the Church has implemented, not a rule mandated by Scripture. So let's not be too strict about it, however helpful we may mind it.
But - in answer to the OP - do whatever you please! It's up to you in the end.
[ 17. December 2014, 07:40: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It's quite simple. There's a secular Christmas that more or less starts at the beginning of December
It started sometime in October for some people
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Now, I like the Advent/Christmas cycle. But it always provokes difficulties in my church from occasional visitors, who expect Christmas carols and are disappointed when they don't get them. (They are not satisfied by any amount of explanation). And - when all is said and done - this cycle is a tradition which the Church has implemented, not a rule mandated by Scripture. So let's not be too strict about it, however helpful we may mind it.
Quite so. Most churches have carol services in December, and these are very important as they are often the only time of the year many people ever set foot inside a church.
I remember a church near me some years ago that had a new(ish) organist, a very pedantic high churchman, who refused point blank to have any Christmas music whatsoever before December 25th, so they had a very bizarre carol service that year. It consisted of the traditional nine lessons, but instead of traditional Christmas music, it had non Christmas hymns to fit in with the readings. For instance, in the reading about the annunciation when you would usually sing something like "Gabriel's Message", instead they sang "Tell Out My Soul".
The once a year visitors were totally bemused by this, because not only were they not getting to sing the traditional carols they were expecting, they were confronted with totally unfamiliar hymns that would only be known to regular churchgoers.
The regular congregation were angry about the choice of music for much the same reason, and because of the message it sent out to the visitors, and the choir (who had protested about this all along) were all deeply embarrassed as they were worried that somehow they might be held partly responsible.
The following year, they returned to the traditional carol service (this organist had since "moved on") but the damage had been done. The once a year visitors simply stayed away because of their experience the previous year and it took a long time to build this service up again.
So, while I admit to being a bit of a grumpy old git when it comes to celebrating Christmas during Advent, I realise that the church also needs to accept that in the secular world, Christmas begins in December. Yes our Sunday services should concentrate on the hope of Advent followed by the joy of Christmas, but if we are to reach out into the world, we need (to a certain extent) to embrace the secular Christmas, even if it's just by holding a traditional carol service on the third or fourth Sunday in Advent or to go out carol singing in the local shopping mall or wherever.
[ 17. December 2014, 08:19: Message edited by: Spike ]
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
When I was a child in the 50s, Santa brought the tree and put it up and decorated it. Kiddies first saw the tree on Christmas morning. (And the parents slept all afternoon.)
So when I was a kid, the "twelve days of Christmas" still started on Christmas day secularly. The Manger scene would get put up before that but the baby was not added to the scene until Christmas day, and supposedly the three kings a few days later, but these days my neighbors have put the tree on the street for garbage pickup the 26th and the manger scene packed away then too.
Of course even in the 50s there were commercial displays, letters to Santa, driving around town looking at lights, special plays at school, Nutcracker at the ballet, etc before Christmas. But none of it started until after Thanksgiving, which is why FDR moved Thanksgiving one year when it was a late date, to stimulate the economy by providing another shopping week.
As commercialism has become a more driving force in the culture, Christmas has "started" earlier and earlier. What intrigues me is that many today act as if Christmas ends at noon the 25th. As if it's all about the presents. Come to think of it, for my atheist friends that is what it's about, getting together and having fun exchanging gifts.
But even as a kid "12 days of Christmas" puzzled me because New Years is a whole different holiday that ends Christmas less than 12 days later. So where were the 12 days? I saw a max of 7.
Mostly, Christmas just wasn't such a big deal. Jobs didn't give time off the day before or after.
Many churches I visit today seem to be doing one Christmas carol pre-Christmas Sundays, a nod to expectations. But a cantata or other special event is all Christmas even though scheduled in Advent.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
... The Manger scene would get put up before that but the baby was not added to the scene until Christmas day, ...
I saw a knitted nativity in somebody's window only yesterday that had an empty manger, I assume for that very reason, rather than just because the baby Jesus had not been knitted yet.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
If Christmas Day (25th December) is the First day of Christmas then January 5th is the Twelfth, so night of 5th January is when decorations such as trees should come down.
6th January isn't Twelfth Night, its Epiphany.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Christmas Day is Christmas Day. Christmastide starts on the 26th, with Ephiphany being the end of it.
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
Posts: 5592 | From: Tallahassee, FL USA | Registered: May 2001
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If Christmas Day (25th December) is the First day of Christmas then January 5th is the Twelfth, so night of 5th January is when decorations such as trees should come down.
No no no no no! Decorations should stay up until Candlemas ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
Hah. my "Christmas" doesn't end till the OLD CALENDAR Epiphany (Theophany), January 19. so my decorations are up a darned long time.
These days I tend to put them up sometime in early December. but there was a time when they went up around (secular) New Years. which meant that we often ended up using "recycled" trees.. something someone else moved to the curb on Dec. 26.
I can see the reasons for starting the whole thing early (for consumerism sake.. although I completely disagree with it). But I really don't understand the idea of ending Christmas (or any holiday) the very next day. For me (per Orthodox standard), the holiday is the start of any celebration, not the finale.
To those churches which do a carol sing before Christmas because it's expected and draws in the crowds... what about a widely advertised one the day after?
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If Christmas Day (25th December) is the First day of Christmas then January 5th is the Twelfth, so night of 5th January is when decorations such as trees should come down.
6th January isn't Twelfth Night, its Epiphany.
Absolutely. But I will put my tree up on the 24th so that I can light it on Christmas Eve. The 5th is the last evening that it will be lit, and it will come down on the 6th. My Christmas party will be January 2 -- it's not an Advent party.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anyuta:
Hah. my "Christmas" doesn't end till the OLD CALENDAR Epiphany (Theophany), January 19. so my decorations are up a darned long time.
I'll see your Eastern Theophany and raise you a Western Candlemas, February 2.
There used to be a family in the neighborhood that would set up a Nativity scene on its front porch in December with lots of Christmas lights and everything and not take it down until February 2nd.
[ 17. December 2014, 20:03: Message edited by: Pancho ]
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
All the decorations had to come down on Jan. 5th because Jan 6th was mother's birthday. There had to be room for (and attention paid to) all her cards, presents and cake. Don't ever remember her being given gold, frankincense or myrrh, though...
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
Same for us - it's my dad's birthday.
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
Posts: 9313 | From: London | Registered: May 2001
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
My wife and I host a Twelfth Night party at the parsonage every year. It's January 4th. Christmas Eve is the first night, and we reckon from there.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
My decorations all come down on Jan 1st.
Heathen me ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
My Christmas party will be January 2 -- it's not an Advent party.
A Lutheran friend has just told she won't be able to come to my party because her Pastor is having an Epiphany party that evening.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Lights get put on the house before it snows and gets too cold, usually the 2nd weekend in Oct, which is Canadian Thanksgiving Long Weekend. Lights get turned on (we put them on timer) Nov 12. Any stores doing Xmas before the day after Remembrance Day are in trouble with the public, as happened this year when a store chain tried it. They took everything down and followed the 'rules', with the excuse that their American head office had so instructed.
Putting up lights has much more to do with it being cold and dark. If Jesus is the light of the world, his lights can jolly well go on when ever we're in the dark (and cold). Currently the lights turn on at 6 a.m. so they're on for the dog and me when we go pretend-running, off 9:30ish when the sky starts to brighten, and on at 4 p.m. when the sun sets, though I'm setting earlier all the time, It may actually be closerto 3:30. We leave them on until at least Lent, sometimes Easter, depending on how cold it is and if Lent/Easter are early. The past year, we had snow until June so didn't take them down until then.
In the house - we brought a tree inside to thaw two days ago. Decorate this weekend when children arrive.
For us, the honouring of the specific dates is rather less important than what the people need and want. I think the season is for the people, with out general need to consider that if people want decorations and shopping, then we should tolerate it all. If the merchants can't make enough money before Jesus' birth, perhaps they can make their killing by Easter.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
We have been known to leave up one set of outside lights until 2nd March - which is the day after St David's Day.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
Decorations should stay up until Candlemas
Which is how the RC cathedral does it here in Phoenix. Believe me, they look pretty old by then.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I agree with L'Organist and Siegfried. Decorations remain up over the New Year (Brismas) and come down on the evening of the 5th of January, which is the end of Christmas. The 6th January is the Epiphany.
Yes, 60 years ago they didn't go up until Christmas Eve, and carol services were after Christmas, but that is being horribly pedantic these days.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
Bugger the decorations. Just more junk around the house. Bah, humbug I say!
But as a concession to popular culture, we have our Nine Lessons and Carols (yes, carols!) in mid-December, before half of the congregation leave us for more pleasant, cooler and less humid climes in the south.
And somehow a Christmas Tree, with $100 Angel has appeared in our function room, whilst the Cathedral has its own adornments for Christmastide.
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
Posts: 506 | From: Top End | Registered: Oct 2005
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sharkshooter
Not your average shark
# 1589
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Posted
You have all gotten it wrong. This explains the 12 days of Christmas ... Bob and Doug
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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]
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