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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Nominated to Vestry
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Someone (either with a sense of humor or of downright malevolence) has nominated me to the vestry of my church. I have never done such a thing and never considered it. Advice? Experience? Comments?
I feel it is all a terrible error -- somebody hit the wrong email address, perhaps. I am very, very creative indeed, but it is not a power I can imagine a church could use.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
Decline the nomination.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
I was on my parish Vestry for three years and enjoyed the experience. But that might be because we met in members' homes and food and wine were involved. (They now meet at the church on Sunday mornings after services.)
Seriously, it was a good opportunity to see how the parish functions and to have some input.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Laud-able
Ship's Ancient
# 9896
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Posted
In our diocese a nomination for the election of a churchwarden, parish council (formerly vestry) member, or lay member of the incumbency committee, must carry the signature of the nominee to signify consent to the nomination.
Having written that, I would add that - if your fellow parishioners are confident in your ability to serve - it is an honour and a privilege to occupy any of these offices.
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'. . . "Non Angli, sed Angeli" "not Angels, but Anglicans"', Sellar, W C, and Yeatman, R J, 1066 and All That, London, 1930, p. 6.
Posts: 279 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I agree. Accept the nomination and treat it as you would any new environment: listen, learn, and begin to contribute as soon as you feel ready to do so, identfying the special contribution that you can make. Does TEC (if that is your church) produce guidance or advice on the role of Vestry members? Worth looking to see.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
I agree with much of what Albertus said. In addition, I would suggest that you find out about the time commitment. How long do the meetings run? What is expected of a vestry member? (Under our previous rector, every vestry person was expected to chair a committee -- which generally meant an additional monthly meeting. Under our new rector, this is no longer the case.) Be sure you know who the wardens are; that will tell you something about how things will be run.
None of that is to discourage you, rather that you just go into it with eyes open.
As to training, I think it's pretty common to have a vestry "training" day or even a vestry retreat. These generally offer conversations about goals, priorities, the usual business stuff, but also prayer and reflection. A good way to get to know your fellow vestry folk, and to see a new side of them. For nuts-and-bolts and practical matters, you might also look up Vital Practices/Vestry Papers from the Episcopal Church Foundation. If you're on Facebook, they provide new resources each month.
Good luck. Just remember, if you turn down the nomination, you've officially rescinded your right to complain about anything. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I was asked a couple of times if I'd be interested in serving on the Cathedral vestry, and was able to decline on the grounds that I'm the organist's wife, and I don't really think it would be appropriate. However, I do other voluntary things, like producing the weekly bulletin and singing in the choir; there are lots of ways you can be useful to a church without serving on committees.
If you really don't want to do it, whether it's because you feel that you have nothing to contribute (although you may surprise yourself!) or because you can't commit yourself to the time required, there's no shame in politely declining.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
I've done two three-year terms on vestry and served on the rector search committee. I feel like that should be enough. Fortunately, when I was recently asked if I'd like to run for vestry this year, the warden who asked was very understanding of my reply that I'm not committing to anything new while I'm still the webmaster (which I've expressed my desire to stop doing, as I've done it for quite a few years). I'm getting good practice saying no, which I'm not very good at.
I don't like when it seems the same group of parishioners keep rotating through the vestry, and I'm glad to see new names on the nomination lists. Very important to get new ideas and wider participation.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Does anybody know? Is the Vestry the same as what we call the PCC?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
If it is, don't join it. It will eat your soul.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Does anybody know? Is the Vestry the same as what we call the PCC?
In the Anglican Church of Australia (Diocese of Perth) the term "Vestry" was changed to "Parish Council" in 2007 so if you're Anglican I'm guessing it is the same thing.
Here it is the authoritative administrative body of the local parish church and together with the Rector and Wardens is responsible for the running and mission of the Church.
Brenda - if you're worried about it, get some paperwork on what your roles and responsibilities would be. Like any responsibility there is work involved, but there can be great reward in being involved too.
[ 04. January 2015, 03:24: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
In England, at least, the members of a PCC (or, in Baptist terms, the Diaconate) are the legal Managing Trustees of the church, which is recognised as a Charity. So they are responsible for looking after the assets of the Church. This is on top of their more "spiritual" duties.
Some people have become worried by this (although it has been the case for many years) as they think they can be personally liable if the church incurs debts or is sued. However that is not how things work unless they have declared themselves to be individually responsible.
The OP refers to the US where things may, of course, be different.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
In England, at least, the members of a PCC (or, in Baptist terms, the Diaconate) are the legal Managing Trustees of the church, which is recognised as a Charity.
Baptists don't have a threefold order of ordained ministry do they? Interesting they call a PCC a Diaconate.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Deacons are lay leaders, elected for fixed terms by the congregation. Some churches call them Elders; some churches have elders for strategic and spiritual concerns, and deacons for the practical "nuts and bolts". "Deacons" is the most usual term, though.
From our Constitution: "At present the church has appointed 14 Deacons who, together with the Minister, function as its Managing Trustees. A maximum of 15 Deacons may be appointed. Each Deacon serves for three years and can be re-elected for another three-year term before being obliged to stand down for at least a year. Deacons must achieve an absolute majority of votes cast in a secret ballot and their terms of office run from January to December".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Evensong
Just try and get your head around the Reformed one then with Ordained Elders who function much as Baptist Deacons.
All right in full since it has been a while.
Calvin's structures which he claims are Biblical are as follows:
- Apostles - rare leaders of the Church who arise in lead in times of crisis (Kairos) e.g. the Twelve and Martin Luther.
- Prophets - rare people who similarly arise in times of crisis (Kairos) in order to bear witness to the call and judgement of God.
Both these are exceptional offices within the church and are not around all the time.
- Ministers - people who are called to the pastoral ministry of Word and Sacrament. They also carry the witness to the Church Universal within the local setting. Maps up to Apostle
- Doctors - people whose are judged to be teachers of the Word whether as at Seminary or as a Sunday School teacher. They also include apologist. They do not have pastoral responsibility. Maps up to Prophet.
- Elders - local people who are elected to provide leadership within the local church. If the Ministers represent the church universal these represent the church local. They are ordained and charged with overall oversight within the context. They carry a large pastoral brief with spiritual care for specific members of the congregation often entrusted to them.
- Deacons - not the people who look after the material aspects of the congregation, that was the town council. These were the people who headed up the social outreach, running hospitals, feeding the hungry etc. They were not ordained so not included by Calvin in his five fold ministry
The Reformed tradition in the broad sense has produced multiple different combinations of this structures. Calvin's original model was for a Circuit based model of governance. There being two bodies within this, the ministers team and the Consistory which had the senior minister chairing a meeting of the the Elders. Other ministers could be brought before the Consistory and reprimanded. The civil authorities were separate.
If you want to know about where the American idea of balance of power came from then I suspect you need to trace a line that goes through Calvin's Geneva.
Jengie
[ 04. January 2015, 13:49: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Hehehe. I was an Elder until I had to move away from that town for work purposes. It was fun. I was the Worship Committee. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Though in the United Church of Canada, there is a second, statutory Board of Trustees for each congregation in addition to the Session/Church Council. It's the Trustees who have legal title to the property and they are the only ones who can dispose of it.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
It's the Trustees who have legal title to the property and they are the only ones who can dispose of it.
That would be true of independent churches in Britain. Denominational churches (eg Baptists, Methodists, mainline Pentecostals) usually have a denominational Property Board to act as Holding Trustees. However local issues (and funds) are handled locally via the Deacons (or whatever) who are the Managing Trustees.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
URC and Methodist are both more complicated than that. There are two sorts of Trustees and one is held locally (for the URC the Church Meeting/Elders/Trustees and for the Methodist by whatever structures work at the level of the church council, I am out of date). The other is usually held centrally.
Only not all URC split the trusteeship in this way! My home congregation's manse is so set up as above, but both trustees for the church building are handled by our local Trustees. There are reasons for this, but I am not sure they are good ones any longer.
The Methodist one I know from serving on local structures of two as an Ecumenical Observer. Including being given a leaflet at the start of one which spelt out the trustee duties of the committee including clearing any debt if they closed bankrupt.
Given that experience I would suggest that Brenda checks what are the financial responsibilities of being on the vestry before accepting.
Jengie
[ 04. January 2015, 14:59: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
This is becoming clearly a polity/governance kind of thread. So following conversation behind the scenes, we're off to Purgatory. Hold on to your CPDs!
seasick, Eccles host
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Well before it quite wanders away into the distance, I will say there is an informational meeting in early February and I will go to it. I am an incorrigible neophile, and since I have never been on a vestry before it is tempting for that reason alone. (Surely there is grist for the fictional mill here?) If they had been sensible they would have offered me a hot-air balloon ride. I will be upfront about all my many faults, and then on their own head be it.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Some people have become worried by this (although it has been the case for many years) as they think they can be personally liable if the church incurs debts or is sued. However that is not how things work unless they have declared themselves to be individually responsible.
Not strictly true - if the Deacons have acted in an illegal or irresponsible manner they are jointly and severally liable for any losses that may be incurred, irrespective of any declaration they may have made. As such (technically) they can be sued individually for the whole of the loss, not just a proportion of it.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Brenda, it depends. If all the leadership want to talk about is who going to defrost the chicken and rotas then you may as well start hitting yourself on the head with a mallet now. So as to enjoy the sensation when it stops.
If the leadership has a heart for discipleship, prayer and mission it could be a great opportunity to serve and grow.
It is testing either way, one will lead to perdition (word of the day) and the other closer to Him, u choose.
Fly safe,
Pyx_e
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
The best thing that came out of it for me, personally, was that Vestry members used to take turns doing the announcements at the beginning of the service. While I've always loved reading in church, any sort of public speaking was virtually impossible for me. But I learned that I could do it (and no rotten eggs were thrown). I actually was one of the eulogizers at a funeral last year.
It was definitely a growing experience for me in many ways. My first few months I resolved to say something during the course of every meeting, even if only to move acceptance of the Minutes. I found it easier and easier to contribute more substantially as my three years went on.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
Brenda - find out the requirements, and if you can manage it and want to give that amount of time, then go and cause whatever trouble you can. Then you won't ever be asked again, and you might give people some insight into how things should be done.
There is some value in using it as research for fiction, but then fiction has to be believable.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
It's the Trustees who have legal title to the property and they are the only ones who can dispose of it.
That would be true of independent churches in Britain. Denominational churches (eg Baptists, Methodists, mainline Pentecostals) usually have a denominational Property Board to act as Holding Trustees. However local issues (and funds) are handled locally via the Deacons (or whatever) who are the Managing Trustees.
There is no denominational-wide Property Board in the UCCan. Each congregation has to have, by law, a Board of Trustees. The Church Council/Stewards have the power to execute the daily business of the congregation, but major financial decisions require the authorization of the Trustees.
The Trustees report to the Presbytery who has the reversionary interest in the property and funds.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Well before it quite wanders away into the distance, I will say there is an informational meeting in early February and I will go to it. I am an incorrigible neophile, and since I have never been on a vestry before it is tempting for that reason alone. (Surely there is grist for the fictional mill here?) If they had been sensible they would have offered me a hot-air balloon ride. I will be upfront about all my many faults, and then on their own head be it.
Don't worry about explicating your faults. Everyone else on the Vestry will have their own and they all come out in the wash. Simply decide if there is something positive you can contribute after the responsibilities have been explained and if you want to do it, say yes.
Service is service.
[ 05. January 2015, 10:00: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Brenda, it depends. If all the leadership want to talk about is who going to defrost the chicken and rotas then you may as well start hitting yourself on the head with a mallet now. So as to enjoy the sensation when it stops.
Dude. SOMEBODY has to sweat this stuff so the church can enjoy the chicken and the readers and the intercessors.
Ungrateful bastard.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I was on my Parish Council and enjoyed it until we got a new minister who ran our meetings as though we were business managers. All he ever wanted to talk about was money management and nothing else was allowed to be considered. Needless to say, I resigned. He has now moved on, so I may decide to stand once more. I think whether you go on Parish Council depends on how it is run and if you feel comfortable with that.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I guess that is my worry. That I will have to spend vast swathes of scarce time attending meetings about subjects I know nothing about, and can make no contribution to. (I am embarrassingly good at falling asleep to the drone of male voices -- that is why I knit during sermons, because it's preferable to snoring.) To be forced to do something I cannot do is just frustration all around.
I will turn a hand to just about anything, and I am possibly the most creative person you will ever meet, but there is no point in hitching the cat to the hay wagon. Better to let her do her kitty thing and bring you mice.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I have just completed my reports for the Annual Parish Meeting, covering fabric of the instruments, any arising problems or major expenses; choir, including personnel and recruitment, plus repertoire and all concerts/special events; forthcoming concerts, any special expenditure to do with choir and music.
We seem to be so organised that everyone on the PCC (what you call a Vestry) is required to write at least one report for the annual meeting; as organist I have to make reports to each PCC so all I have to do is compile these from the year and then edit sensibly.
You ought to factor into your decision on joining the Vestry whether or not you think you have the time for this sort of thing.
[Now, wearing my musical hat, I've to tackle the first of two reports the parents of junior choristers get on the progress of their children.]
[ 05. January 2015, 17:31: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
We seem to be so organised that everyone on the PCC (what you call a Vestry) is required to write at least one report for the annual meeting; as organist I have to make reports to each PCC so all I have to do is compile these from the year and then edit sensibly.
You ought to factor into your decision on joining the Vestry whether or not you think you have the time for this sort of thing.
What kind of PCC expects a written report from every member (all 22?)?
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Isn't a PCC/vestry constituted, partially, of elected representatives from the congregation? So, surely, only the church organizations should be submitting reports (written or verbal) for the APCM; in addition, of course, to the official stuff from the Secretary, wardens and treasurer.
However, as vestry/PCC member, undoubtedly you will be subjected to more in-depth debating of policies, reading of paperwork, circular discussion and bureaucratic nonsense than any sane person should ever have to do with.
Just think of it as a kind of perverse version of Kipling's 'If'.
If you can sit through three hours of fruitless meandering over the colour of the vestry, without swinging a punch;
if you can listen to the same old problem being raised by the same old people for the fifth, sixth, seventh time that year, without throwing a chair at them;
if you can hear yourself being misunderstood, misjudged and criticised and still see Christ's presence in the person who has just done their best to make you look like either a fool or Satan's henchman
.... then you will be a halfway decent vestry member, my son (or daughter).
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Brenda, it depends. If all the leadership want to talk about is who going to defrost the chicken and rotas then you may as well start hitting yourself on the head with a mallet now. So as to enjoy the sensation when it stops.
Dude. SOMEBODY has to sweat this stuff so the church can enjoy the chicken and the readers and the intercessors.
Ungrateful bastard.
I got no problem with SOMEBODY doing it, it's when EVERYBODY does it and that's all they want to talk about I get a bit pissy.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I guess that is my worry. That I will have to spend vast swathes of scarce time attending meetings about subjects I know nothing about, and can make no contribution to. (I am embarrassingly good at falling asleep to the drone of male voices -- that is why I knit during sermons, because it's preferable to snoring.) To be forced to do something I cannot do is just frustration all around.
I will turn a hand to just about anything, and I am possibly the most creative person you will ever meet, but there is no point in hitching the cat to the hay wagon. Better to let her do her kitty thing and bring you mice.
But if there is anything you don't follow, make them explain it. That is always a good challenge. If they are boring, tell them to get to the point.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
Among other things, ask the person who nominated you why you were nominated, and what the nominating committee sees as your strengths that would be useful to the vestry. That can be illuminating -- including if you find you strenuously disagree with them!
Talk to as many current or former vestry members at your church as you can. What was their experience? What did they like? What did they hate? Would they do it again? Why or why not? If they wouldn't do it again, are they glad they did it once, or do they wish they'd never said Yes?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Freddy R
Shipmate
# 14391
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Posted
About 30 years ago, I served two 3-year terms on our parish vestry. I found it to be an enjoyable and spiritually rewarding experience. Brenda, I suspect you were nominated because of you have served the parish well in other functions and have exhibited the ability to work together with others. Consider your service to be a form of stewardship and enjoy it!
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The night is dark and I am far from home/ Lead Thou me on.
Posts: 107 | From: Denver, Colorado | Registered: Dec 2008
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
For a couple of years I was on the Vestry of our local church that met monthly. I was nominated Secretary. One month I read the minutes for the meeting two months previously. No one noticed apart from the Vicar.
They were very repetitious meetings. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Anselmina quote:
What kind of PCC expects a written report from every member (all 22?)?
Well, we don't have 22 members of PCC: ours is constituted as follows:
Chairman - Parish Priest
2 x Churchwardens
Treasurer
Member responsible for building project
Events co-ordinator
Liaison with secular parish organisations
Member responsible for website
Stewardship member
2 co-optees (1 Deanery Synod, 1 safeguarding officer)
Written reports for the following activities are attached to the minutes of the previous year's APM:
Mission Action Plan - achievement/performance
Electoral Roll
Church fabric, Goods and Ornaments
Churchyard, Church Hall
Music - instruments and choir
Church Flowers
Sunday School
Deanery Synod
Safeguarding
Church Development - current and future projects
Health and Safety
Publicity: Parish Magazine & Website
Secular parish organisations, plus ACORA
Finance & Stewardship
Some reports cover several linked subjects - for example, Fabric, goods & ornaments is lumped in with Churchyard, Hall and Health & Safety.
By distributing written reports before the meeting people can read properly before the day and raise issues at the meeting. It also cuts down on the length of the meeting because it is assumed that everyone has read them.
Some reports are only a paragraph in length, others longer, but it means a full picture of parish life over the year is given without having a meeting the bores everyone rigid.
In our parish PCC meetings usually come in at just over an hour; the APM lasts for about and hour and a half.
It also means that if a member disappears suddenly there is the possibility of proper handover, rather than trying to proceed by guesswork.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Just think of it as a kind of perverse version of Kipling's 'If'.
If you can sit through three hours of fruitless meandering over the colour of the vestry, without swinging a punch;
if you can listen to the same old problem being raised by the same old people for the fifth, sixth, seventh time that year, without throwing a chair at them;
if you can hear yourself being misunderstood, misjudged and criticised and still see Christ's presence in the person who has just done their best to make you look like either a fool or Satan's henchman
.... then you will be a halfway decent vestry member, my son (or daughter).
If you find any of that happening, you've a rubbish chair. Get ride of them if they won't change. A meeting stands or falls by its organisation (ie paperwork sent out well in advance) and by its direction.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
A friend of mine points out he was nominated to Vestry no fewer than three times. All three times he was not elected. What clearer indication of God's will could you possibly look for?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Being not elected four times?
To be serious: I'm sure that a lot of Unsuitable folk get onto Vestries unopposed, either because there are insufficient candidates or because people don't think carefully before they vote ("How can we not vote for that nice Mr. Smith?")
[ 06. January 2015, 18:47: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
L'Organist, I didn't know the church representation rules (God bless their complex and legalistic little clauses) allowed such a radical interpretation of a PCC constitution! What you describe looks more like the structure of a standing committee. But I am aware that in some benefices there are unusual configurations for PCC administration. And there must be many benefits in having such a tight little group covering all the tasks in that way.
Exclamation Mark, you're quite right that a good chairman would be able to eliminate persistent offences, such as the ones I named. But even control-freak chairs can't ultimately prevent every instance of time-wasting or unChristian harping, which will occasionally break through. And sadly some get-togethers are almost characterised by these things due to the nature of a meeting designed to permit everyone the opportunity to express their opinion, raise a concern etc.
So Happy you (generically 'you'), if you have a wide field of choice for chair, and voting folks on and off can be done as and when it suits. Some church councils (I suppose I'm thinking mainly Anglican here) have rules as to who is allowed to chair - and sometimes getting rid, isn't an option.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I know I cannot be unique in this. But ever behind me I seem to hear time's winged chariot hurrying hear. Members of my age cohort have already fallen off the professional sled; I don't have that much time, and I have a lot of books to write. I'm writing as fast as I can, possibly as fast as a human being can. A vestry stint will surely mean one or more books that will never see the light of day this side of eternity. This is the nub of it, the sacrifice that I will have to make. I already realize that each of my children probably took one book out of me, a book that I will never know.
(Although I am certain that Heaven has decent word processors, an ample research library, and coffee in ever-flowing streams. And, gosh! One could go and interview the sources, instead of struggling through annoying biographies and inaccurate histories. Surely Robert Scott could not have been as incompetent as alleged? Inquiring minds want to know.)
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I've been on vestry 3 times (terms of 2 or 4 years are usual here, with only half retiring at once), and also have been a warden. The issues that always seem to come up are:
- for some the meetings are a social time versus doing the work
- many times people who agree to be on vestry have limited experience in working via committee
- many priests have limited skills in running meetings**
- often a small group within vestry does all the work, which can annoy if you're one of the busy ones, or if the vestry seems to have an inner circle.
- seemingly very small issues can seem enormous to some not on vestry, thus, it is important to be on a vestry only if the various sensitivities are represented within
I'd recommend talking widely within the parish before agreeing to stand, and also checking with family. There's nothing like a call at 3 a.m. to help with the flood in the hall basement, or because someone with a pastoral emergency only had your number. -- expect this varies depending on the size and organization of the parish. I found it both rewarding and stressful in approximately equal measure.
Finally, it sounds a bit like you're being volun-told versus volunteering for the position. It is flattering possibly to be asked to stand; I'd recommend examining your motivations before accepting.
**(which is why I ended up as rector's warden, because it is possible to chair the meetings if the priest agrees as a condition of being the warden)
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Being not elected four times?
To be serious: I'm sure that a lot of Unsuitable folk get onto Vestries unopposed, either because there are insufficient candidates or because people don't think carefully before they vote ("How can we not vote for that nice Mr. Smith?")
No one should be elected without a vote even if there are as many (or fewer) candidates than there are vacancies. I'd suggest, in addition that no one is elected unless they have the support of at least 2/3rds of the congregation. Then the candidate will enter the post aware that - on paper at least - they enjoy significant support.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Exclamation Mark,
1. you're quite right that a good chairman would be able to eliminate persistent offences, such as the ones I named. But even control-freak chairs can't ultimately prevent every instance of time-wasting or unChristian harping, which will occasionally break through. And sadly some get-togethers are almost characterised by these things due to the nature of a meeting designed to permit everyone the opportunity to express their opinion, raise a concern etc.
2. Some church councils (I suppose I'm thinking mainly Anglican here) have rules as to who is allowed to chair - and sometimes getting rid, isn't an option.
1. You can't prevent every occurrence but good behaviour can be modelled and adopted such that the meeting itself minimises such problems. That's true even in the congregational structures we have (Baptist Union).
2. If you can't remove someone who is clearly not cut out for the role, then the church is in danger of becoming, being and remaining ineffective. It's likely then that the church won't grow and will likely decline. The real responsibility then is to the whole church not just to the meeting.
Two possible solutions. If you "can't" remove, then help the person concerned to change. Most people can be coached to be more effective - if they are willing.
A mid stream approach is to (outwardly) do things as you are supposed to do them but in practice get someone else to run the meetings.
In extreme cases - and the hardest to address - you have to consider the needs of the whole and not just the voices of the few. Get the denominational hierarchy involved - it may be the only way. In the hardest cases of all, if you can't see the end of the tunnel, then consider whether it's helpful for you to stay there.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mamacita:
For nuts-and-bolts and practical matters, you might also look up Vital Practices/Vestry Papers from the Episcopal Church Foundation. If you're on Facebook, they provide new resources each month.
That looks like a great resource!
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004
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